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In a sane world the two-handers would be the heavy-hitting weapons and the Balanced property would be something you imbue. The tradeoff for that heavier damage would be the lack of a shield and the fact that you need to waste an imbuing slot on Balanced in order to drink potions. Bam, done. Not that difficult.
But this is UO, so their "solution" is going to be something five times as complex as it needs to be, but it won't matter because it'll be so gimped no one will use it anyway. It'll just gather dust and rot in a big pile with all the focusing gems and ephemeral armor and all the other stuff with "carefully considered drawbacks" that turned them into permanent garbage.
Yeah you know what, have Balanced ruin two-handed melee weapons. Two months after they come out I'll buy one for 5k and slap a focusing gem on it. Is there any way we can make them ephemeral with evil mana burst, too? I want all of those properties on one item, so I can grab an engraver and name it "BOONDOGGLE". I'll summon Charybdis and hit him with it and the sheer concentration of things which have no reason to exist will collapse the universe.
But this is UO, so their "solution" is going to be something five times as complex as it needs to be, but it won't matter because it'll be so gimped no one will use it anyway. It'll just gather dust and rot in a big pile with all the focusing gems and ephemeral armor and all the other stuff with "carefully considered drawbacks" that turned them into permanent garbage.
Yeah you know what, have Balanced ruin two-handed melee weapons. Two months after they come out I'll buy one for 5k and slap a focusing gem on it. Is there any way we can make them ephemeral with evil mana burst, too? I want all of those properties on one item, so I can grab an engraver and name it "BOONDOGGLE". I'll summon Charybdis and hit him with it and the sheer concentration of things which have no reason to exist will collapse the universe.
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Well said and 100% correct.
A weapon is a weapon.
Whether it takes one or two hands to hold it is nothing more then a pixel illusion.
You cant have any weapon in the game that is capable of effectively killing someone in 2 or 3 hits no matter how you slice it.
No amount of shield/parry/balanced/ssi/debuff debate will change this.
Random balanced mod on looted weps is simple and viable.
Lets move on
I will acknowledge that you may be correct and is indeed something I could understand, however I still feel it is fair criticism by some to be concerned with the clarity and effectiveness of the current LMC proposal.
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Oh Christ, why don't you try playing literally any RPG in the world besides UO? They all have two-handed weapons, everyone doesn't die in two hits, and it all works out. It just requires developers who are at least passingly familiar with the systems of the game they're designing for.
I have nothing to offer this discussion, other than in a moderator capacity.
My only warrior has merely 43 dci, doesn't use any potions and weilds a daisho or hatchet and doesn't have necromancy. In fact none of my characters use potions, not even when in Felucca.
I have reached the conclusion from reading this thread that I simply don't play the same game that you all do.
My only warrior has merely 43 dci, doesn't use any potions and weilds a daisho or hatchet and doesn't have necromancy. In fact none of my characters use potions, not even when in Felucca.
I have reached the conclusion from reading this thread that I simply don't play the same game that you all do.
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Nah.. you play the same game. You just don't play it for the same reasons. I'd say your Avatar about sums it up heh.
I remember in the olden times when the damage landed at the beginning of the swing rather than the end like it is now, big scary two handers actually DID fill that roll. Thats why everyone used um. FS + hally whack = OooOOOooOOo.
I say leave the speeds on the slow end, allow two handed weapons to break the 300% DI limit by and extra 50% (or whatever feels right, would need testing) for the pvmers, break the damage limit to PCs from 35 to 40 for the pvpers, and allow balanced to be imbued with a -10% parry bonus. That way two handed users become more the heavy hitters they should be, and if they want to drink potions they lose their defensive edge, but not to the point that it's silly. May not be a perfect idea, but I think its decent. Though I don't know the feasibility from the coding side when it comes to checking and altering those caps, so..
I think its a fair as well, clarity for sure because once again... they fail to give elaborate explanations, or any examples at all. Why, I have no clue.
Don't feel bad petra. I rarely use potions if ever, and I am one of those suckers who always uses a staff on his warrior just because I picture him as a warrior monk type dude, and using a leaf blade wouldn't look right. We all play the game our own little ways. ;P
They said they were going to revamp weapons and armor and I had this fantasy that they'd tell us "We balanced resists on everything and gave metal an extra eighty imbue points to make up for no med, also we made every weapon fast enough to be used and balanced damage from there!" Or you know, something like that. Then I would go out and pay some crafter millions to make me an awesome plate suit with a dragon helmet and a badass warhammer to go along with it, and I would just ride around looking awesome and being viable.
Instead we're sitting here slowly talking them down from wrecking the game. So far we've worked them down to merely making it more complicated for no real reason, but I just don't see a future in which anyone is particularly glad they bothered.
First the "faction fixes" that destroyed factions, then the "bug fix pass" that had people's **** flying out of their houses and sent Atlantic half a month back in time, now this.
Seriously devs, take that crap I put in my fantasy quote in the first paragraph and type it up in patch note form. Post it and see what happens. It won't be universally loved by every single player, but I bet it won't spawn 15 pages of screaming that the game is doomed, or page after page of argument over how it's even supposed to work.
Instead we're sitting here slowly talking them down from wrecking the game. So far we've worked them down to merely making it more complicated for no real reason, but I just don't see a future in which anyone is particularly glad they bothered.
First the "faction fixes" that destroyed factions, then the "bug fix pass" that had people's **** flying out of their houses and sent Atlantic half a month back in time, now this.
Seriously devs, take that crap I put in my fantasy quote in the first paragraph and type it up in patch note form. Post it and see what happens. It won't be universally loved by every single player, but I bet it won't spawn 15 pages of screaming that the game is doomed, or page after page of argument over how it's even supposed to work.
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Oh, come one. But they're talking just of the inherent bonus and not the overall value (inherent + normal). Otherwise that would be a completely screwed and borked logic. Why the hell would they disable/deactivate an imbued value, where a player has actually spent some resources on it? That would make absolutely no sense.
Ok, I can see now, what your examples were about. And yes, your interpretation would be horribly confusing and needlessly overcomplicated. But in my opinion, that's just a misconception.
A Yumi with 2 hit spells on it, using the double hit special will kill you in 2 hits, Just saying
One of the problems with two handed melee weapons right now is that shields can carry really powerful mods, which you lose if you chose to wield such weapons.
If they were to reduce the imbuing costs of some of the properties such as DI, SSI, decrease the impact of SSI on leeches on two handed weapons and allow HCI and DCI to go up to 25 as it is with bows, it would help two handed weapons a fair bit.
I have been playing with a halberd wielding chiv/bush/fighter and I am loving it, but it is just much easier to equip my macer because I can just reforge a very powerful shield to fill in my armor with mods and ease the weight on my weapon.
If they were to reduce the imbuing costs of some of the properties such as DI, SSI, decrease the impact of SSI on leeches on two handed weapons and allow HCI and DCI to go up to 25 as it is with bows, it would help two handed weapons a fair bit.
I have been playing with a halberd wielding chiv/bush/fighter and I am loving it, but it is just much easier to equip my macer because I can just reforge a very powerful shield to fill in my armor with mods and ease the weight on my weapon.
Don't worry, most people who don't PvP don't use Pots. Once you learn to use pots there is no going back, they will save your life more times that you will believe. Once you have learned to use them they become an addiction, you cant carry enough.
Many of the people discussing the game mechanics in this thread have a deep understanding of the finer points of the game. A lot of us use spread sheets to calculate our templates and go into the finest of details to make our character better and harder to kill. Were playing the same game as you, just at a deeper level.
i love seeing the people complaining about 2 handed weapons, and how they USE to hit years ago, if they put balance on them who cares, cant use them to evade or count towards yoru dodge. Funny thing is you dont see any mages saying anything about the 50+ pt FS, with no evil omen... thats just fine.
its called irony
synch dumps from 2 people will kill anyone in game at anytime if there are unaware, but we want to complain about a handed weapon hitting hard? cmon guys.. be realistic..
its called irony
synch dumps from 2 people will kill anyone in game at anytime if there are unaware, but we want to complain about a handed weapon hitting hard? cmon guys.. be realistic..
pots
petals
fish pies
apples
aids
tele rings
wall of stone scrolls
trapped boxes
grapes
turkey feathers
conflags
shatter pots
and even more..
my back pack is always loaded....
and yes, we use spreadsheets, MR, SR, HPR, SSI, calulators .........the whole nine yards to design our suits.
And a key bound to each!
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The whole 2H balanced prop idea isssssss kind of useless. But it doesn't mess up existing 2H weps, which is nice. Overall I agree there needs to be more perks for 2H weps. It's kind of silly how bushido users, for example, prefer one handed weps in order to use pots for PvM situations, but then, like others have said, you give them a 2H wep with balance prop and suddenly it has one less prop to fill with imbuing, which is bad, and you can't use the wep to parry, which sucks unless you just want to use lightning strike.
I've seen the idea to add two tile range for 2H melee weps, or maybe you could add an adjacent tile bonus, like the three tiles in front of your swing:
AHA
XOX
XXX
where H = hostile, O = player, and A = adjacent damage tiles
then you get into questions like would the adjacent damage proc specials? and is two-tile melee too OP and exploitable?
but I'd rather see those kind of questions, because it would make use of 2H weps in PvM while not affecting PvP too much, except to discourage choke points. if you mess too much with the base then people will start to get two hit killed or something, lol. you can't get 1.25 really on a hally, but with ssi and stam you can get a pretty fast swing rate. that's the toughest thing to balance against, ssi and stam. things were much more simple in the AR days when 125 dex was all you could have and armor reduced dexterity.
I've seen the idea to add two tile range for 2H melee weps, or maybe you could add an adjacent tile bonus, like the three tiles in front of your swing:
AHA
XOX
XXX
where H = hostile, O = player, and A = adjacent damage tiles
then you get into questions like would the adjacent damage proc specials? and is two-tile melee too OP and exploitable?
but I'd rather see those kind of questions, because it would make use of 2H weps in PvM while not affecting PvP too much, except to discourage choke points. if you mess too much with the base then people will start to get two hit killed or something, lol. you can't get 1.25 really on a hally, but with ssi and stam you can get a pretty fast swing rate. that's the toughest thing to balance against, ssi and stam. things were much more simple in the AR days when 125 dex was all you could have and armor reduced dexterity.
We are in agreement here. Crafting should not be able to provide every property which can be looted. If they could, then there would be no reason to loot items, except maybe to save on a few resources (get a 1/3 ring to imbue, as an example). It was like this before they changed the loot generator for the revamped dungeons. It is still like this for several other systems in UO (T-maps, MIBs, SA minichamp bosses, etc..), but the developers have hinted at migrating them to the new system too.
What is your take on "Balanced" weapons having the no-Parry penalty?
Stayin Alive,
BG
Of course they are, when it comes to sorting which five pieces count toward the inherent bonus. I've never tried to claim otherwise. But imbued LMC is still going to be on every serious suit, and this is going to make it way more complicated to figure out how much of it you need.
A misconception about what? Armor gets inherent LMC based on material, but in any given suit only the five pieces with the most inherent LMC actually count. That's pretty unambiguously how it works, right? So let's consider once more the case of Joe Newbie.
Currently Joe is wearing a Helm of Insight, a Heart of the Lion, and some Leggings of Bane. His gorget, gloves, and sleeves are all studded leather. But he sees a nice bone helm with some properties he wants sitting on a vendor. It has 6 LMC listed on it among other things, and Joe wants to know how wearing it will change his LMC total.
Right now in order to answer that question accurately all he has to know is that 6 is 2 points less than 8.
Under the proposed system he needs to know the LMC bonuses inherent to each type of material and the fact that the mage armor property on his Heart of the Lion plate chest means that it counts as leather. He has to add the inherent LMC on the bone helm to the visible LMC listed on it, and compare that to the LMC on his current helmet. Well 6 visible plus 3 inherent is 9, so even though the new helmet has 2 points less LMC listed on it, he actually gains 1 point of LMC. Hooray. Except he also has to remember that he was getting a 1 point bonus from each of his metal pieces, so actually it's a wash and his LMC is unchanged. I actually forgot that last bit the first time and had to come back and edit it into the post.
Do you see the difference? Devs? This is HORRIBLY overcomplicated.
But wait, you say, all Joe Newbie will REALLY need to do is look at the property counter being added to the client!
And yeah, that will tell him his current LMC, but it won't explain all that crap above about some helmet he might want to buy from a vendor. It won't tell him anything about an item he might plan to craft. And if he doesn't understand WHY his helmet makes his LMC go up by 8 when it only has 6 LMC listed on it, yet somehow adds 9 when he puts it on a different character? All that property counter is going to tell him is "Hey man this game does not make sense!"
Just wait until he changes to plate arms, gloves, and gorget with a total of 24 LMC imbued on them and his handy new display tells him his LMC total only went up by 18. Man we can barely hash this out here and we're hardcore types on the forum. To the average slob, LMC is going to become voodoo.
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Played plenty, thanks - be they pen and paper or computer, pretty much all of them all have the same treatment for 2-handers, slower and harder hitting, and NONE allow for the thing to do what it really does - which is the point I was making, a GAME disregards the reality of the weapon type and it's reason for being the way it is, because it is a game. All we can do within the UO game mechanic is make 2-handers weird variants of 1-handers, because damage is abstracted into a playable game....
Still, feel free to carry on trying to condescend to anyone who you don't agree with.
In principle, I agree that balanced should come with some trade-off. However, the current no-parry penalty is not a trade-off.
It has no effect on characters without Parrying or Parrying & Bushido, which leads to your scenario above. Characters with Parrying or Parrying & Bushido, would be putting themselves at a disadvantage, without any advantage over simply using a 1H weapon. They would avoid balanced 2H weapons, so why bother adding it. The current penalty provides no viable trade-off to choose a balanced weapon over a 1H weapon. That trade-off could be a high imbuing weight (if crafted) or a "Cannot be Repaired" tag (if looted). It needs to be revisited.
Analysis here: http://stratics.com/community/threads/uo-com-updated-publish-81-notes.294228/page-3#post-2235428
Stayin Alive,
BG
Well stated. We will have to see what plays out on TC. It may be simpler/easier than we think.
Stayin Alive,
BG
Splash damage would be neat, but I have a feeling really hard to implement, and probably as bothersome as hit area effects can sometimes be.
Yeah while I liked the meditation idea alot more it likely wasn;t possible
I think the lmc idea could work they just need to raise the cap for those wearing nonmed armor. As it is right now all it is does is confuse people and maybe add a little imbuing weight. They could just add the extra imbuing weight instead. However probably because I donlt play with maxed out suits anyway I rather they just raise the lmc cap since unless they allowed a 6th property it would not do me much good anyway. Hopefully next week a dev comes clarifies the whole lmc calculating issue people are arguing over, but not holding my breath lol.
Sadly I think this is a larger issue with the game. So many little things are undocumented and many big things are poorly explained.
I think the simple fact that you need to use up a slot and weight on the balanced mod if you want to use it is plenty punishment enough. Even with that alone two handers are not gonna see much more play.
And of course you are right, stripping the weapons of ALL parry bonus if they are balanced makes the change 100% pointless.
Yeah if it doesn't up the cap its a functionally a limited imbuing weight bonus to heavier armor. I personally would just prefer that simply to allow more theoretical versatility. And of course that will be the case with giving heavy armor ANY imbuable property free.Yeah while I liked the meditation idea alot more it likely wasn;t possible
Extra imbuing weight everyone could understand, PLUS it makes thematic sense. Sturdier material holds magical energy more efficiently, thus more points. No leaving people with confused looks about inherent magical seeming properties on plain armor or mystery stats from nowhere.
Yeah adding more imbuing weight would be nice. I just hope on a personal level if they did that they would consider allowing a 6th property as well. Otherwise it wonlt do me any good, I run fairly good suits but I donlt think I have yet to run into the problem of needing more imbuing weight on my suits at least weapons are another story. Though I realize that it would help alot of people who do max out their suits. It is possible too that we are making this lmc thing more complicated then it really is. I wish they would take a little more time and clarify these things more. We can;t even test this right now so we are left to speculating on what how exactly it will work which isn;t always the best thing.
What a waste..
Hey guy. I'm willing to bet they're only making balanced like this because the coding is to complex. So they just made 2 hander balanced coding just like archery balanced weapon coding. That's just my guess though :/.
How does Mage Armor factor into your special bonuses? Does it negate them? Or is it actually beneficial to put/have mage armor on heavier pieces for meditation type characters?
What happened to this stuff?
Combat changes:
Combat changes:
- The Gargoyle race hit chance increase cap has been reduced from 50 to 45.
- Hit lower defense now scales 55% of the players Max Defense Chance Increase. The default max defense chance increase of 45 has a -25 defense penalty. A max defense chance increase cap of 95 has a -52 defense penalty.
- Ninjitsu: animal form can now be interrupted while casting.
- Throwing: Adjusted throwing sweet spot hit chance and damage reduction penalties. Throwing damage reduction penalties now scale based on player stamina and strength.
- Necromancy: Evil Omen now reduces Mysticism Stone Form Immunity by 30.
- Weapon effect: Hit stamina leech is now subject to diminishing returns based on max player stamina.
- Mysticism: Increased Cleansing Winds healing power reduction based on curses. Cleansing Winds will always heal for maximum potential when the target is the caster. Cleansing Winds power will now scale based on the number of targets when healing targets that are not the caster.
- Chivalry: Divine Fury stamina regenerated decreased to 2.5x duration from 4x duration.
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A couple random thoughts on this update and UO in general:
1. Nobody will be happy with combat changes until they find a way to make changes that only effect PVM or PVP. By tying these two different play styles together with game mechanics you're not doing justice to either style by finding "middle of the road" type changes. They have done it with other things like SDI...
2. The talk about improving 2 handed and slow weapons makes no sense when you add balance property but then take away parry ability. Not an improvement if you add something then take something away.
3. I'm not sure why people are worried about others soloing high level mobs faster or better than before it's not like every MOB guarantees you any usable items, in fact it's quite the opposite you can grind out 100s or 1000s of mobs without something worthwhile dropping.
1. Nobody will be happy with combat changes until they find a way to make changes that only effect PVM or PVP. By tying these two different play styles together with game mechanics you're not doing justice to either style by finding "middle of the road" type changes. They have done it with other things like SDI...
2. The talk about improving 2 handed and slow weapons makes no sense when you add balance property but then take away parry ability. Not an improvement if you add something then take something away.
3. I'm not sure why people are worried about others soloing high level mobs faster or better than before it's not like every MOB guarantees you any usable items, in fact it's quite the opposite you can grind out 100s or 1000s of mobs without something worthwhile dropping.
1) I think there's balance to be had. I think middle of the road is better than ignoring one or the other personally.
2) Yup.
3) Good point!
The inherent LMC has its uses, don't get me wrong, and I'd prefer that much over the weird "your armor slows down either your SSI or the opponent's SSI, not sure which" thing.
I just think it makes things far too complicated in terms of figuring out what you have (as others have argued) and doesn't quite fit the fantasy logic test (as some have also argued).
Hell, give nudity inherent 20 LMC, nullified by wearing anything save a death robe, and then we might see a naked mage in low-end PvM once in awhile. (GM Resist Spells giving you 40 in everything.)
The naked mages were always pretty amusing.
-Galen's player
I just think it makes things far too complicated in terms of figuring out what you have (as others have argued) and doesn't quite fit the fantasy logic test (as some have also argued).
Hell, give nudity inherent 20 LMC, nullified by wearing anything save a death robe, and then we might see a naked mage in low-end PvM once in awhile. (GM Resist Spells giving you 40 in everything.)
The naked mages were always pretty amusing.
-Galen's player
It seems MORE complex to me. I can't fathom how much difference there could possibly be in adding something to a loot table and adding to a crafting menu. On top of that they are adding in the pointless check to strip two handers of their parry bonus.
Heh... I could be pretty effective with just 40 in resists, honestly. Give me long sleeves and short pants with other mods... now were really talking.
If you truly want to make 2 handed melee weapons more viable in pvp without screwing up the whole system you need to do nothing other then make them all unable to be disarmed by any means.
The fact that it is physically more logical is just icing on the cake.
This along with the addition of the already proposed random balanced mod makes for a nice little buff that will surely have an impact in pvp.
The fact that it is physically more logical is just icing on the cake.
This along with the addition of the already proposed random balanced mod makes for a nice little buff that will surely have an impact in pvp.
While it is no rocket science, it is plain obvious, that it is more complex than before. People would have to dig in and new players might be overwhelmed.
I really like this inherent LMC stuff and I think there is an easy solution to that:
Since there are just 6 slots, where you can put non-medable armor, why not scrap the 5-piece-rule?
Then a full plate would give 6% inherent LMC instead of 5%. And a full studded + bone helm or a full bone + studded gorget would give 18% LMC instead of 15%.Now this doesn't sound that imbalancing.
Furthermore you could directly display the inherent bonus on the item tooltip or add it up with the normal bonus, just like it is currently now with resist bonuses from special materials.
Simple and straightforward...
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And the devs are worried about the game STARTING to BECOME too complex.
That is the reason two-handed weapons (Melee) still won't be used in pvp... pvm, most mobs have about the same or More resistances than players can get due to caps. so this is another reason ,unless the weapon has Armor Ignore OR Whirlwind, they won't be used either.
Heavy Cross Bow (currently the highest base dmg weapon 20-24) with 150 str, 120 Tactics, 120 Anatomy, +100% Damage increase from items.... I also threw in 100 lumberjacking (+30% flat bonus, not even counting the 10% proc of an additional +70% for 100% increased damage.)
your status bar would say your damage would be 85 - 102 (this is with the highest possible damage currently in-game)
This is not even obtain-able, because there are no weapons with a base damage of 20-24 that gain the benefit of Lumberjacking.
Your damage = 85-102 -
vs. 70/70/70/70/70
You will deal 25 - 31 per hit to your target.
A weapon that does 100% elemental damage, and your target is cursed... (70/65/65/65/65)
you would do 29 - 39.
Might as well use a 2-3s one-handed weapon that can reach 35 damage AIs.
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As soon as we start going there it becomes difficult to screen out stuff in those slots that have mods. While it's difficult to become overpowering using this method someone will manage it. This is UO.Heh... I could be pretty effective with just 40 in resists, honestly. Give me long sleeves and short pants with other mods... now were really talking.
I did not mean this as a serious proposal, merely to say "this would be better than inherent LMC on armor."
-Galen's player
All medable armor = zero LMC bonus.
You people are way over thinking this Armor Inherent Lower Mana Cost
#1 It does not matter how much real LMC is on any piece or pieces. Real LMC is real LMC and trying to use it in examples is just confusing everyone, even youselves.
Lets look at what is said in the patch notes and quit trying to add in other stuff. There is no other stuff to add in.
#1 It does not matter how much real LMC is on any piece or pieces. Real LMC is real LMC and trying to use it in examples is just confusing everyone, even youselves.
Lets look at what is said in the patch notes and quit trying to add in other stuff. There is no other stuff to add in.
- The system will look at how many +3 pieces you have and add them up till it hits 5 pieces.
- If and only if it has not hit 5 pieces yet
- The system will look at how many +1 pieces you have and it will add them up untill it hits the 5 pieces.
- The system will do this until it hits the 5 piece mark or runs out of Inherent Lower Mana Cost pieces to look at.
- You can have +15 max Inherent Lower Mana Cost which = %15 lmc bonus to a min of +0 Inherent Lower Mana Cost which = 0 % LMC bonus.
- Quit over thinking
Yes, I know... I was just goofing around.