Really because if they have full access to the bank then why sub. Isn't that the end goal is to get them to sub and not have a bunch of freeloaders or is that what you want a free ride.
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I'm not sure how you're making the stretch of having a difference of access your bank as a comparison to being a freeloader.
The other limitations provide a perfectly acceptable reason to subscribe.
Why would anyone be concerned about a returning vet who's played since 2000 accessing the items already in the bank?
It's a skewed perception really.
Sure, they don't have to add the bank in. I don't need to play or spend money either.
Come on people.
Giving EJ'ers a real bank is the lure to get them to keep playing EJ when they try it, and grow characters.
HOUSING is the only real subscription bait, or should be. Let them experience the whole game, fully, just with thye housing restrictions. And add some meaningful stuff for them to buy to the store.
Giving EJ'ers a real bank is the lure to get them to keep playing EJ when they try it, and grow characters.
HOUSING is the only real subscription bait, or should be. Let them experience the whole game, fully, just with thye housing restrictions. And add some meaningful stuff for them to buy to the store.
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Quite a few people who play UO have paid and played for a very long time, some of them have never played any other games let alone free-to-play ones, so it can be hard for them to get their head around the idea of playing for free.
Unfortunately having a 'free - freemium - subscription' tiered model is now the norm even in older games that started with a subscription. The dev team know this and they are trying to move with the times...yes they have made some mistakes, but if we give some constructive criticism maybe we can get some changes for the better, like the limited storage. When they first announced EJ I thought not allowing them to have a small house was a bit mean, but now I think they made the right decision. So many returners and new players have been around the last week or so, if they had all got a small house we would have a sea of tiny houses everywhere, forever, most of them belonging to people who had a go for a month or two and then moved on. I don't see them as freeloaders because I have played plenty of free games and I know that in most of them to play for 'free' you have to grind, it's a trade-off that most can deal with. People that just wanted to play UO for free have had places to do so for a long time.
Unfortunately having a 'free - freemium - subscription' tiered model is now the norm even in older games that started with a subscription. The dev team know this and they are trying to move with the times...yes they have made some mistakes, but if we give some constructive criticism maybe we can get some changes for the better, like the limited storage. When they first announced EJ I thought not allowing them to have a small house was a bit mean, but now I think they made the right decision. So many returners and new players have been around the last week or so, if they had all got a small house we would have a sea of tiny houses everywhere, forever, most of them belonging to people who had a go for a month or two and then moved on. I don't see them as freeloaders because I have played plenty of free games and I know that in most of them to play for 'free' you have to grind, it's a trade-off that most can deal with. People that just wanted to play UO for free have had places to do so for a long time.
Phantasmagorian
Sage
Housing should remain a perk of subscribing. UO housing is the most advanced and coolest on the market. That's just a fact. No game comes close. It's one of the unique selling points. At most they could do a tiny instanced rental at the vault building, as I've suggested elsewhere.
I agree that people here seem to have little idea how more modern business models work and indeed older games have adapted too. UO can adapt fine. In fact UO's potential remains enormous. If they can iron out the registration, put expansions/boosters in the in-game shop, regularly add items to the in-game shop, beef up/modern subscriber perks, streamline the new player experience... UO will thrive.
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People need to understand that the world's largest FREE MMORPG (RuneScape) is doing the same thing, this is smart F2P and I expect nothing less from UO/Dev's. So let's please stop calling this not enough or a failure as it's far from it, bank storage will be implemented and the amount you get for FREE (20-28) is as good as it will get until you sub! Endless Journey offers so much free content and is definitely the best addition to the game in years, i'm already seeing tons of players in game and on Stratics so it's obviously a step in the right direction
*Example listed seems higher for bank space however you only have 1 character on RuneScape per account
Phantasmagorian
Sage
Yep. UO just needs a clear and nice list of the differences like that one.
Well there's a full list here Endless Journey – Ultima Online but agree they should clean it up abit, too much is listed in the grid... stuff that applies for both (VET & EJ) should be removed and just explained in the paragraphs above or below
What a coincidence, I'm not playing that game either.
Besides doesn't that say 83 items for storage?
Phantasmagorian
Sage
That's not at all how that should be presented. That looks like a 1999 web design mess. It's not presentable, both in terms of design and marketing. There is work under the hood to be done also. Beef up and modernize subscription perks. State 10 of them clearly and succinctly. Then list it side by side with Endless Journey.
As for the bank slots.. you can't compare completely different games in terms of number of bank slots. Two different games can both have 50 bank slows and in one game this can be a lot, in another it may be woefully inadequate.
Phew. Was hoping there was a reason I wasn't able to deposit anything in to my bank box on my EJ account. Thanks for the head's up!
83 vs 28. I would be much happier with 80, that's at least reasonable. 28 is not.
No, I want to give the the basics to enjoy the base experience. I'm not asking for the moon here, just enough space to play. If you want to get people to sub... you have to give them an experience that will keep them playing long enough to know they want to sub. If I'm a new player and after just a random day of roaming I have a full pack of item, head to the bank and see I can't even unload... why do I go out tomorrow? 28 is just not enough to play the game.
Think about it this way. You start playing and you find that within a week at most that your bank is full, and now you basically can't do anything. What is your natural inclination? Start paying for a sub for a game you are just starting to play... or just move on? I think the answer is obvious.But see that's exactly why they aren't doing it, you've just confirmed that some people would come back and live out of their bank box without ever paying. Your only solution is to sub if you want all your stuff, play for free without em for now
Everyone knows that living out of a bank box will get pretty cramped after a month or two, but now they know they like the game and want to keep playing. There's a balance between people never feeling the need to sub, and people not having enough to make it worth playing EJ. 28 items simply is not hitting that balance.
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Okay first of all, it's not 28....for a NEW EJ account it's 20...the other 8 comes from vet accounts storage upgrades and High Seas.
Second, I think 20 is good...not GREAT....but again EJ is supposed to be a teaser....players will have to learn quick what to keep and what not to keep...to be honest? On the characters I play the most, I have NOTHING in the banks that pertains to what I do on a daily basis save for my Sampire because carrying around 12+ weapons just isn't fun! lol
Now, this is just me...
My Tamer:
What I need...band-aids....that's it...I can create food on the fly for my pets, I don't use pet balls....so really don't need to put anything in her bank.
My Sampire:
What I need...weapons...I don't use pots, I don't use band-aids....maybe keep a few repair deeds in there.....
My Crafter:
Crafters are a bit trickier and if I had to store BODs in the bank, 20 wouldn't be enough...BUT to give a NEW player a taste of the BOD system...it's enough...keep a few supplies in there, fill a few BODs...turn them in, see how it all works....don't need much to figure out if you wanna play a crafter or not.
My archer:
Arrows....band-aids...weapons.....I don't use pots....I have 3 quivers in my pack.....
Now again this is just how I play....others might have banks full of junk...but to ME, 20 is more then enough to give someone a taste and let them decide if it's worth it to sub or not.
Second, I think 20 is good...not GREAT....but again EJ is supposed to be a teaser....players will have to learn quick what to keep and what not to keep...to be honest? On the characters I play the most, I have NOTHING in the banks that pertains to what I do on a daily basis save for my Sampire because carrying around 12+ weapons just isn't fun! lol
Now, this is just me...
My Tamer:
What I need...band-aids....that's it...I can create food on the fly for my pets, I don't use pet balls....so really don't need to put anything in her bank.
My Sampire:
What I need...weapons...I don't use pots, I don't use band-aids....maybe keep a few repair deeds in there.....
My Crafter:
Crafters are a bit trickier and if I had to store BODs in the bank, 20 wouldn't be enough...BUT to give a NEW player a taste of the BOD system...it's enough...keep a few supplies in there, fill a few BODs...turn them in, see how it all works....don't need much to figure out if you wanna play a crafter or not.
My archer:
Arrows....band-aids...weapons.....I don't use pots....I have 3 quivers in my pack.....
Now again this is just how I play....others might have banks full of junk...but to ME, 20 is more then enough to give someone a taste and let them decide if it's worth it to sub or not.
It's not just about what you need though. It's also about the things you are going out to get. A time will come (and very rapidly with just 20 items) where you realize there's no point in doing anything because there's no room to keep anything you find when you go out to do whatever.
Also you're looking through the eyes of a vet. A new player won't know what they "need" or anything like that, they will want to just go out and play the game, look for loot, try stuff out. It's going to get very annoying very fast for new players, and if they have the choice between subbing and leaving to allay that annoyance they are just gonna leave. People will only sub if they get invested. They won't get invested if you don't give them enough rope.
And what exactly do you need to play UO on an EJ account.
noChance219
Visitor
Filthy skimmer here, but as a former 3 account owner (never had more than 2 active at a time) and a current EJ player on a new account, I would totally pay for "Bank Upgrade" ala Path of Exile style Stash Tabs. MTX like Bank space & char slots could work, in my opinion.
There are a plethora of micro transactions options that could have been implemented to bring to UO a modern financing model that would have provided an alternative source of income than subs. A model which has been hugely successful in other games. They chose a different path however.
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I think the reason they didn't go the full micro transaction route was because they didn't want to remove the subscription charge. I can see how that would be a concern, but as it is they kind of made a half-hearted attempt at free-to-play and it might go well for a few months, then people will remember why they left after the nostalgia has worn off. Also quite a few people have talked about down-scaling on the number of accounts they paid for when EJ started. I wish they had done things differently but it is what it is.
I do like that members get a discount in the general shop thing... Will properly never happend in UO.. :/
We don't even know what EA/BS plan is. But ya i do agree it does seem like an half-harted attempt.I think the reason they didn't go the full micro transaction route was because they didn't want to remove the subscription charge. I can see how that would be a concern, but as it is they kind of made a half-hearted attempt at free-to-play and it might go well for a few months, then people will remember why they left after the nostalgia has worn off. Also quite a few people have talked about down-scaling on the number of accounts they paid for when EJ started. I wish they had done things differently but it is what it is.
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At this point I'm not sure that their plan was well thought out, they launched EJ with no storage and no idea how long it would take to convert all of the accounts. Let's hope going forward they give things a bit more thought and plan ahead better....
BS needs to listen to its playerbase more often. How often have we said "No, that's stupid. Don't do it that way..." they didn't listen, then took weeks/months/years to do it the right way? Constantly saying "We told you so..." has gotten old.
I think a certain individual is too close to see things objectively...or there is an extreme level of hush-hush EA interference (which I personally doubt). Regardless, many people have laid out a far better, and far more profitable, path that could be followed.
I think a certain individual is too close to see things objectively...or there is an extreme level of hush-hush EA interference (which I personally doubt). Regardless, many people have laid out a far better, and far more profitable, path that could be followed.
Like I said a couple times... a reasonable amount of storage, 20 is far from reasonable. I would say 50 at bare minimum, though I would personally suggest more.
I'm gona re-post something I posted in another thread - whose topic has gone a different direction...
In reference to the Endless Journey Storage system. This is more of a comment, not a complaint.
Typically speaking when you go to stop playing UO for a while, you'll empty your houses in your banks because disabled accounts' houses will eventually fall. I bought storage expansions for all my accounts so there's even more stuff in my banks.
Put yourself in my shoes... As an ex-vet you can imagine how much crap is loaded in my bank boxes (I let 3 castles fall, so they're all filled to the brim.) Anything that I valued that was stored in my houses now reside in my bank boxes. I fully understand the point of restricting access to housing for endless journey accounts, but if I'm not able to do as much as access my old suits so that I can participate in pve/pvp... it's just not worth it for me right? I won't even get into potions/bandages and typical items you restock every time you die in pvp.
I read that they are working on ways to provide more access to storage, and in the future I might be enticed to play again depending on how the changes go.
I guess my point is - wasn't restricting housing enough? If I wanted to get serious with this game again I'd imagine that I'd need more than just bank storage to store all my stuff.
What do I think is fair? In my opinion, if I weren't allowed housing, I'd think at the very least I should be able to pick and choose everything I want out of my bank storage and be able to put it back so that my character isn't stuck lugging it around.
my 2¢
Anyway... I'm glad the game is going in this direction, happy to see the dev team is still working hard and the community is still active on the forums.
In reference to the Endless Journey Storage system. This is more of a comment, not a complaint.
Typically speaking when you go to stop playing UO for a while, you'll empty your houses in your banks because disabled accounts' houses will eventually fall. I bought storage expansions for all my accounts so there's even more stuff in my banks.
Put yourself in my shoes... As an ex-vet you can imagine how much crap is loaded in my bank boxes (I let 3 castles fall, so they're all filled to the brim.) Anything that I valued that was stored in my houses now reside in my bank boxes. I fully understand the point of restricting access to housing for endless journey accounts, but if I'm not able to do as much as access my old suits so that I can participate in pve/pvp... it's just not worth it for me right? I won't even get into potions/bandages and typical items you restock every time you die in pvp.
I read that they are working on ways to provide more access to storage, and in the future I might be enticed to play again depending on how the changes go.
I guess my point is - wasn't restricting housing enough? If I wanted to get serious with this game again I'd imagine that I'd need more than just bank storage to store all my stuff.
What do I think is fair? In my opinion, if I weren't allowed housing, I'd think at the very least I should be able to pick and choose everything I want out of my bank storage and be able to put it back so that my character isn't stuck lugging it around.
my 2¢
Anyway... I'm glad the game is going in this direction, happy to see the dev team is still working hard and the community is still active on the forums.
And again what do you need that takes your storage or do you think 50 is enough to be a permanent freeloader.
I agree with you. The original design of EJ did have the ability for items to be seen and removed but not put back. And they were going to have a vault system that EJ players could access with a monthly gold payment.
They built the vault building. So they tried, just could not pull it off.
I'm sure they'll get it soon™ and the size and restrictions of the EJ bank are good enough for me. a new player can make a decision on whether they want to subscribe or not and old vets can see their characters, and what's in their banks to figure out which account they want to open. I wouldn't agree that more is needed.
The ultimate goal *should* be to get more people into the game, not just getting them to subscribe... While there is still potential in finding new players that have never heard of or never played UO before, the majority of players coming into this game now are more than likely people who have played it before. We can go on to say that of those people, they are more than likely playing another game. This is not a new game, so how do you compete? There are still subscription-based games out there and there are also games with cash shops. This game has both so there's already two sources for the company to generate a profit.
So if the goal is to bring people back, how do you do it?
Less of this: "They get to play for free, they shouldn't have this."
More of this: "What other perks/incentives can you give for subscribers that would entice more conversions?"
You obviously don't want to piss off your current subscribers by giving them a feeling that they are paying for some that other people can get for free.
Storage is just one dimension... It's just one way of saying hey here's a reason to subscribe. By adding more dimensions you can stretch out, something like storage, so that these people don't have to figure out ways of dealing with a mouse hole for a bank.
You guys are just starting to take in non-subs and I think the current view of "give them a taste of the game so that they'll sub" should change to "lets just get people into the game, get a cash shop going to generate some profit off them and come up with a bunch of perks so that they may decide to sub someday."
So if the goal is to bring people back, how do you do it?
Less of this: "They get to play for free, they shouldn't have this."
More of this: "What other perks/incentives can you give for subscribers that would entice more conversions?"
You obviously don't want to piss off your current subscribers by giving them a feeling that they are paying for some that other people can get for free.
Storage is just one dimension... It's just one way of saying hey here's a reason to subscribe. By adding more dimensions you can stretch out, something like storage, so that these people don't have to figure out ways of dealing with a mouse hole for a bank.
You guys are just starting to take in non-subs and I think the current view of "give them a taste of the game so that they'll sub" should change to "lets just get people into the game, get a cash shop going to generate some profit off them and come up with a bunch of perks so that they may decide to sub someday."
So you just want a bunch of freeloaders. EA makes its money from Subs and selling expansions and other items not by maintaining servers to play on for free. IMHO a lot of these posts are can I get my stuff from my bank and sell it more than playing the game.
Phantasmagorian
Sage
Many free games populated by so-called freeloaders are top grossing products. Why? Because players like to enter the arena for free, and then spend hundreds of bucks in the cash shop. UO has rightly adopted a cash shop and it should aggressively add items to it.
There is no doubt UO is the most feature-rich sandbox MMORPG on the market. If they can streamline the new player experience, account stuff, and address the other problematic bottlenecks and problems,.. it will thrive.
A few EJ players I spoke to who have never before played UO are enthralled by it. While I understand some vets are burnt out or disillusioned on UO, objectively there is a lot of potential. The big question is if the team has the vision and resources to cash in on that potential. From what I've seen recently, whether it's the "never gonna happen" CC upgrade or going f2p and adding banking swiftly after our feedback, they are at least trying. Given their tiny size, I wish them good luck - I hope it UO will thrive. UO Renaissance 2.
There is no doubt UO is the most feature-rich sandbox MMORPG on the market. If they can streamline the new player experience, account stuff, and address the other problematic bottlenecks and problems,.. it will thrive.
A few EJ players I spoke to who have never before played UO are enthralled by it. While I understand some vets are burnt out or disillusioned on UO, objectively there is a lot of potential. The big question is if the team has the vision and resources to cash in on that potential. From what I've seen recently, whether it's the "never gonna happen" CC upgrade or going f2p and adding banking swiftly after our feedback, they are at least trying. Given their tiny size, I wish them good luck - I hope it UO will thrive. UO Renaissance 2.
It happens so often I almost wonder if it is designed to fail and kill UO... Seriously. But then I tell myself but that's their job would I do something on purpose to lose my job? Even if I hated it? I don't think so but you have to wonder...
You are right that there are free games out there that do very well and there is a reason for that. Almost all those games were set up as F2P to begin with and they had a large team to do it with. The in game store is no where close to being set up to support F2P and please show me a 20 year old MMO game that went F2P that is still around, I will take a MMO that started as a sub and 10 years later went F2P.
Phantasmagorian
Sage
That's probably silly. My guess is: they have very few resources so they have to make annoying trade-offs all the time, there are constraints due to their contractual relationship with EA that hamper development and decision making, several important factors have made it so there were no clear options (just lose-lose situations), etc.
With what they are pursuing now, my guess is that they are trying step by step to get more independent, be able to attract new player and not just please vets and modernize UO.
But.. the whole history of UO is a very strange tale of mismanagement. The sheer amount of new clients, the canned successors,.. it smells like design by committee from hell. That this tiny development team ended up having to maintain two clients is just ludicrous. One of my top priorities would be to can one client, while making sure the one that stays has all the features the "other side" wants. But I don't want to start another client battle thread here...
Yes... a bunch of freeloaders. I can see you read my post thoroughly. You're entitled to you're opinion, but you really have no clue as to what my intentions truly are. If you actually read my post in it's entirety you'd clearly see my intentions are to help the community.
What exactly do I have to gain by selling stuff? (you don't think I have currency in my storage too?) Whatever currency you think I'd gain by selling items I had better make sure that I don't buy more than 20 items...
The cash shop needs to grow and the differences between subscription and non-subscription accounts should be vast. As I said, add more dimensions, don't drastically diminish one dimension. Housing is a second dimension. Come up with more ideas people. Limit EJ to not be able to use veteran rewards - put them on a non-ethy. That won't kill their experience but will be a huge perk to sub.
The problem is that EJ is being looked at as a system to get people to subscribe. I think that's a huge mistake and it's going to lead to a missed opportunity to bring a large amount of players back to the game. It should be looked at as an alternative to subscribing.
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I like this NOOB poster who has had an account since 1969. How did you join stratics before keyboards were made? Did you use punch cards?Many free games populated by so-called freeloaders are top grossing products. Why? Because players like to enter the arena for free, and then spend hundreds of bucks in the cash shop. UO has rightly adopted a cash shop and it should aggressively add items to it.
There is no doubt UO is the most feature-rich sandbox MMORPG on the market. If they can streamline the new player experience, account stuff, and address the other problematic bottlenecks and problems,.. it will thrive.
A few EJ players I spoke to who have never before played UO are enthralled by it. While I understand some vets are burnt out or disillusioned on UO, objectively there is a lot of potential. The big question is if the team has the vision and resources to cash in on that potential. From what I've seen recently, whether it's the "never gonna happen" CC upgrade or going f2p and adding banking swiftly after our feedback, they are at least trying. Given their tiny size, I wish them good luck - I hope it UO will thrive. UO Renaissance 2.
Great input tho.
Phantasmagorian
Sage
Need I say more?
My account is from 2004, but there was an even older account of mine. Late 90s I would guess. An admin said they could merge it so the older date would show. Something went wrong...
I'm waiting for it to be fixed..
I said NOOB because I Haven't seen you much here as a poster. But late 90s 2004... Here is what your profile says.
NO dont fix it!! They need to make more account age levels for you!
I do like your posts that I have read.
NO dont fix it!! They need to make more account age levels for you!
I do like your posts that I have read.
Up until these statements, I am in agreement with all you say. I would reword the "More" statement into "What can we do to get the EJ accounts to actually sub and draw revenues?"
Subbed accounts have tons of perks EJs don't have. You WANT the EJs to join up ... not try it and run away.
Sorry if I didn't write well, what I'm saying is, give subscribers more perks so that EJs get enticed to sub.
Instead of taking away from EJs, give more to subs so that EJs want to convert to subs.
Phantasmagorian
Sage
I've made that point in this thread: Subscription perks brainstorm
Well clearly you don't want to talk about it like a reasonable person, so what's the point?
Of course not. What one earth would be the point? If they wanted to close the game they would just close it. If the devs didn't want to work on the game, they would move on.
But you have yet to provide a list of items that a new player would need and you call me unreasonable now that is funny.
For instance two stacks of repair deeds, one blacksmith, one tailor...
Oh, wait, they don't stack...
So 10 blacksmith & 10 tailor repair deeds. Bank full. How awesome is that?
Try VS how's that or ask in chat how's that
Why's it have to be a new player why can't it be a returning one, why can't it be a regular player that doesn't want to subscribe. We're talking about how much storage is reasonable for a non-subscribing player.
I want to participate in PVP maybe 12 hours a month. Here are the minimum requirements I need to participate in player vs. player combat.
1. Refresh pot
2. Heal pot
3. Cure pot
4. STR pot
5. AGI pot
6. Smoke bomb
4. Bandaid
5. Conflag
6. Supernova
7. Grapes
8. Apples
9. Trap Boxes (don't stack)
10. Scrolls/Reagents
We'll say that there's 10 common reusable resources that a typical UO player uses for player vs. player combat. This doesn't include extra armor/weapons that I'd need.
Tell ya what, instead of theorizing what I'd need I'll just play EJ for a month and report back.
