Think About It

[Nestorius]

Ha no nothing like that happened to me but I didn't like his conclusions and analogies.

You don't like the trailer park analogy? I thought I was being cute.

The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother. 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. 4 The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.

5 "Oholah engaged in prostitution while she was still mine; and she lusted after her lovers, the Assyrians-warriors 6 clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, and mounted horsemen. 7 She gave herself as a prostitute to all the elite of the Assyrians and defiled herself with all the idols of everyone she lusted after. 8 She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her.

9 "Therefore I handed her over to her lovers, the Assyrians, for whom she lusted. 10 They stripped her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword. She became a byword among women, and punishment was inflicted on her.

 

[Altpersona]

I just wanted to interject here, that if you really think the God of the Old Testament is nothing but vengeful, take some time to read the book of Psalms.
In it, you will find that the majority give nothing but praise and adoration to Him... not out of abject fear and horror, but out of fear (as in awe and reverance, since He IS God), and true, meaningful love.

God as portraid in the Psalms IS One you can run to for refuge in times of trouble, and makes us no less human by doing so. But, in a way, you are right. By coming to Him, we deny ourselves and our human nature but that is in no means a loss. What we gain in return our human selves could never acheive on our own. His rewards are far, far greater.

Again, you are also correct. To be fully human in nature, we would have to rely on ourselves and our own faults, frailties and lustful desires that in the majority of cases leads only to heartache and trouble. Look at the world today, the people that are not His children... the people that are "fully human".

See the trouble? See the heartache?

To come to Him is to deny our human nature and rely on Him.

You experience even more 'heartache and trouble' by following him so blindly so don't put that BS on me. I'm stunned you truely believe loosing ones humanity, diginity and most importantly Integrity is a small sacrifice to pay to be sheltered by your god. All you follow your god for is his supposed promise. Is eternity that big of a carrot? Can you not be enough for yourself you have to find solace in another wheather it be this supreme being or not. So god made us with him missing that we must become one with him in the end?

I would like to point out the 'majority' of people walking on this earth have not earned the right to call themselves human, so don't you dare dishonour my intellect by using such a feeble defense. I asked when was the last time you prayed without asking for something which I suppose I can safely presume never, since you artfully dodged the question the first time. Atleast I can praise you for not lieing.

 

[The Fallout]

You don't like the trailer park analogy? I thought I was being cute.

I just took it too seriously lol

 

[Pacem]

You experience even more 'heartache and trouble' by following him so blindly so don't put that BS on me. I'm stunned you truely believe loosing ones humanity, diginity and most importantly Integrity is a small sacrifice to pay to be sheltered by your god. All you follow your god for is his supposed promise. Is eternity that big of a carrot? Can you not be enough for yourself you have to find solace in another wheather it be this supreme being or not. So god made us with him missing that we must become one with him in the end?

I would like to point out the 'majority' of people walking on this earth have not earned the right to call themselves human, so don't you dare dishonour my intellect by using such a feeble defense. I asked when was the last time you prayed without asking for something which I suppose I can safely presume never, since you artfully dodged the question the first time. Atleast I can praise you for not lieing.

It would seem to me that your problem is not with me, but with God.
We don't follow God just for the promise of eternal life at the end, like your "carrot". When we become His children, there is NOT ONLY that promise at the end, but the blessings that He gives to us all along our journey TO that goal. If you want proof of that, look in the Bible for one, and then look at the lives of all those that truely love Him and follow His commands. Jesus said, "If you love me, do what I say."

On top of this, yes, we do give up our sinful nature, which defines humanity. What we get in return is becoming a new creature in Christ. That means the old sinful self is put off, and we are made new in Him, forgiven like we had never sinned.
Plus, especially in the New Testament, honor, loyalty, dignity, integrity, family and a good name are valued very highly. The Bible is very specific about such things, not just doing what God says for the promise at the end. God not only wants us to follow and love Him, but He also wants us to have lives that are enriched in ways we could never accomplish on our own.

Do I every pray without asking God for anything? Yes, I do. Every day. Not only does God expect us to come to Him with our wants and needs, there is nothing wrong with just talking to Him, and thanking Him for blessings and so forth. Prayer doesn't need to be filled with asking for things all the time.

Can we not be enough in and of ourselves, that we do not need God?
Again, take a look at the world around you, and then come back to me with the answer to that.

 

[Nestorius]

I would like to point out the 'majority' of people walking on this earth have not earned the right to call themselves human, so don't you dare dishonour my intellect by using such a feeble defense. I asked when was the last time you prayed without asking for something which I suppose I can safely presume never, since you artfully dodged the question the first time. Atleast I can praise you for not lieing.

Its not a shameful thing in the Christian Bible to pray for something. The Bible isn't Buddhism.

In what sense do you mean "the 'majority' of people walking on this earth have not earned the right to call themselves human"?

 

[Altpersona]

Its not a shameful thing in the Christian Bible to pray for something. The Bible isn't Buddhism.

In what sense do you mean "the 'majority' of people walking on this earth have not earned the right to call themselves human"?

If a person can do/get/acheive it themselves then yes it's totaly shameful. Buddhism lol

Our flesh is nothing but animal. When we discover and nurture the parts of our being that is more than that we come closer to being human. The more we foster the truth in the relationships we share with others we become more. When we act and speak upon peoples lives with intention to cause harm become less. The moment we stop trying to become more, we are nothing but an animal. It's not about never faulting but the intention behind your actions. I suppose you could say to be human is an intellectual endeavour. You've never met anyone in your life you've thought of them being nothing but animal? This doesn't make them less important than you in the way you should respect them but they certainly arn't human.

 

[Altpersona]

When we become His children, there is NOT ONLY that promise at the end, but the blessings that He gives to us all along our journey TO that goal. If you want proof of that, look in the Bible for one, and then look at the lives of all those that truely love Him and follow His commands. Jesus said, "If you love me, do what I say."

A good person, a very dedicated christian told me of a story about when she was younger. She was just as devoted to her god as she is today but she and her partner had sex. She fell pregnant. She told me that if he hadn't agreed to marry her when she found out, she'd have killed herself. It was ok for her to be made to feel like she didn't have an option other than to kill ehrself because of her faith?

On top of this, yes, we do give up our sinful nature, which defines humanity. What we get in return is becoming a new creature in Christ. That means the old sinful self is put off, and we are made new in Him, forgiven like we had never sinned.

We have very different veiws of what humanity is so there's no point going down this road.

Do I every pray without asking God for anything? Yes, I do. Every day. Not only does God expect us to come to Him with our wants and needs, there is nothing wrong with just talking to Him, and thanking Him for blessings and so forth. Prayer doesn't need to be filled with asking for things all the time.

Can we not be enough in and of ourselves, that we do not need God?
Again, take a look at the world around you, and then come back to me with the answer to that.

I'm not a christian, I have no god like the one you follow. My childhood thankfully was not influenced by the church directly and minimaly indirectly. I have challenged every bit of expectation that has been placed upon me and I have turned out a fine individual. The only thing you could call me on is the fact I'm a homosexual. I look around and I see many people who can do nothing without an instruction manual. I'm not one of those people, I hope one day you'll have the faith in yourself to do the same and stand for what 'you' think is right, and not what the church thinks is right.

P.S. Praying is like crying. It's inherently selfish no matter how you swing it.

 

[Nestorius]

If a person can do/get/acheive it themselves then yes it's totaly shameful. Buddhism lol

Our flesh is nothing but animal. When we discover and nurture the parts of our being that is more than that we come closer to being human. The more we foster the truth in the relationships we share with others we become more. When we act and speak upon peoples lives with intention to cause harm become less. The moment we stop trying to become more, we are nothing but an animal. It's not about never faulting but the intention behind your actions. I suppose you could say to be human is an intellectual endeavour. You've never met anyone in your life you've thought of them being nothing but animal? This doesn't make them less important than you in the way you should respect them but they certainly arn't human.

lol... sort of like Paul in Romans?

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

 

[Pacem]

A good person, a very dedicated christian told me of a story about when she was younger. She was just as devoted to her god as she is today but she and her partner had sex. She fell pregnant. She told me that if he hadn't agreed to marry her when she found out, she'd have killed herself. It was ok for her to be made to feel like she didn't have an option other than to kill ehrself because of her faith?

No. As with all sin, if we truely come to God asking forgiveness for whatever it is we have done, He is faithful and will forgive us. The Bible tells us that what she did was a bad thing, and it is better not to do it. Yes, she did feel guity and rightly so, because she knew that what she did was wrong. But she doesn't have to kill herself!

Jesus already died in her place.

P.S. Praying is like crying. It's inherently selfish no matter how you swing it.

You are correct on one part. Prayer IS a form of crying. It is crying to God, which is what part of the purpose of prayer is. Look throughout the entire Bible. You will see many people, both powerful and weak, young and old, rich and destitute, wise and foolish crying out to God. Among the Psalms, read Psalm 32 and Psalm 51. These are perfect examples of "crying" out to God. Plus, Psalm 32 is a perfect example as well of forgiveness and redemption.

Now, on another subject, it is apparent to me that you pretty much hold to a naturalistic view, is this correct? If so, you may recall a previous post of mine about the dangers of holding such a view. I will gladly post it again if need be.

 

[Aran]

I'd rather hold a "naturalist" view than believe in something man-made.

 

[Nestorius]

WTF is a naturalistic view? Pacem, if you start talking about Nietzsche again, I am going to make you read the Antichrist. I read the Bible. Its only fair you read Nietzsche now.

 

[Altpersona]

lol... sort of like Paul in Romans?

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

This is lost on me sadly, though I can show you for definite what being human isn't. I can't post a link here because of it's graphic nature but I can PM if you like.

 

[Pacem]

I'd rather hold a "naturalist" view than believe in something man-made.

Then us as Man must truely rock, since we somehow found a way to make something with the ability to pre-exist in order to create everything from nothing (including us)...

 

[Altpersona]

Now, on another subject, it is apparent to me that you pretty much hold to a naturalistic view, is this correct? If so, you may recall a previous post of mine about the dangers of holding such a view. I will gladly post it again if need be.

We are a species that loves it's pleasures. Sins of the flesh and all ^^b Would you say sciences llineage was naturalistic?

 

[Nestorius]

This is lost on me sadly, though I can show you for definite what being human isn't. I can't post a link here because of it's graphic nature but I can PM if you like.

I was trying to say in the New Testament, especially in Paul's letters, its very dualistic like that. Except instead of Human versus Animal, its Spirit versus Flesh. Seems like the same difference to me. Manicheaism. Some wisdom, but then it gets taken way too far.

 

[Nestorius]

And notice regarding the ethical we are still all talking about individual morality. There is also the realm of political ethics.

Its all well and good the Christian turns the other cheek when struck, but what are the responsibilities of a Christian national leader, like a President or a King?

They look to the Old Testament for guidance, do they not? Not only is the ethical one's personal behavior, but it also involves the behavior of nations. I don't hear of many Christian nations acting out the Sermon on the Mount. When its war, its all about the Book of Kings.

 

[Altpersona]

And notice regarding the ethical we are still all talking about individual morality. There is also the realm of political ethics.

Its all well and good the Christian turns the other cheek when struck, but what are the responsibilities of a Christian national leader, like a President or a King?

They look to the Old Testament for guidance, do they not? Not only is the ethical one's personal behavior, but it also involves the behavior of nations. I don't hear of many Christian nations acting out the Sermon on the Mount. When its war, its all about the Book of Kings.

Not that scale should matter from my point of veiw but I suppose for a christian leader it's about defending your people against the evils of greed. Is it like, if you get into a fight you don't mind don't mind takin a slap or two but if it's your mother gettin the slap it's whole different ball game. Btw isn't this line of conversation moving back into the messy and quite bloody path of christianity?

 

[Aran]

Then us as Man must truely rock, since we somehow found a way to make something with the ability to pre-exist in order to create everything from nothing (including us)...

Nope, just wrote some stories and got the weak-minded and easily swayed to believe they're anything more than stories.

 

[Altpersona]

Nope, just wrote some stories and got the weak-minded and easily swayed to believe they're anything more than stories.

From what I've read Pacem can't comprehend the idea nor humours the idea of a world where god doesn't exsist. Everything is because god has willed it but only that is good is gods work. Everything that he or she thinks is based on this premis, to him/her we are crazy for thinking otherwise.

 

[Pacem]

From what I've read Pacem can't comprehend the idea nor humours the idea of a world where god doesn't exsist. Everything is because god has willed it but only that is good is gods work. Everything that he or she thinks is based on this premis, to him/her we are crazy for thinking otherwise.

I can indeed comprehend and humor the idea of a world where God doesn't exist.
As proof of this, I present to you the following:

The World Without God
After considering all of the evidence presented, if you still wish to believe in evolution and the non-existance of God, you should be aware of the dangers that come with that belief.

Atheistic, evolutionistic and secular belief systems are responsible for more evil and death than all the religious battles of the 20th century combined.
4000 are killed in abortions every day in America.
Cambodia's Pol Pot killed 2 million
Hitler killed 6 million Jews
Karl Marx had multiplied millions killed world-wide
Stalin: 20-30 million
China's Mao Tse-tung killed 65 million
One example that stands out in particular is the Hitler didtatorship. Hitler was a staunch evolutionist that believed in survival of the fittest. The Jews along with other peoples were viewed by both him and those following him to be a species of sub-human. He then proceeded to exterminate them, in his view wiping out a lesser species to make way for the perfect species of the German people. The strongest shall survive. According to naturalistic evolution, this is perfectly acceptable behavior and is required for the survival of the species.

Hitler, to all Christians, was a horrible monster that did and ordered unspeakable things to be done to millions of innocent people. For someone to think that Hitler was doing right, or think he wasn't a madman is to be considered insane. Yet if no God truely exists nor ever did exist, they were neither innocent nor guilty. Hitler simply did what is recorded in our DNA through evolution to do what needed to be done, and did nothing wrong whatsoever.
In fact, without God, or the belief in ANY god, right and wrong are nothing but the fantacies of every individual person. Sure, each of us has a concept of what is right, but it is only personal opinion.
****, murder, abortion, taking advantage of another for your own gain... it is all there in our DNA, according to this view. It is a very bleak scenario. **** is required to purpetuate the species and help it to survive. We see it in nature all the time. So there is no reason to exclude ourselves from that rule as well, without the true God of the Bible to teach us how to treat our neighbor, etc.
I can go even further in stating that all that we think and do are nothing more than the random processes of chemical reactions in what we call the brain to trigger responses from the animated matter that is our bodies, triggered by actions of other animated matter outside of our own.

What I have just described is very disturbing. Yet to hold to the totally naturalistic view, it is absolutely required that one also believes in the affore-mentioned scenario as well, or the view has no validity.

This is the world without God.

I implore you, think carefully before making such a decision as this, research and study for yourself what I have related to you previously, and the concequences of the stand you now have. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide where you stand.

Of course, this scenario in its entirety is absolutely dependant on the possability of everything coming from nothing. I will explain this in further detail in future posts as the need arises.

Now, not meaning to insult you based on your sexual orientation, but at the same time following the "logic" of a totally naturalistic view, consider the following:

If you truely hold to a naturalistic view, homosexuality is absolutely detrimental to the natural order of things in the way that it does absolutely nothing to assist in the propogation of the species. It does nothing to increase numbers for a more stable foothold and does nothing but provide mis-placed pleasure to those involved. People say homosexuality is natural, but if enough of a species, human or otherwise, engaged in this, it would eventually lead to extinction.
This is only one reason God has labeled homosexuality a sin. There are, of course, other reasons, such as God set it up from the beginning that a man should be with a woman in the bonds of marriage (Genesis 2:23-24, Matthew 19:4-6, Mark 10:6-8), and that the very sight of it is an abomination to God (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13)

 

[Nestorius]

This is your theory of naturalism, Pacem. I don't know of any moral philosopher who believes what you say.

You postulate an ideology that regards us being pre-destined in our moral behavior by DNA.

Where not only is there is no right or wrong, there is no good or bad except species survival.

There is no one worthy of notice who advocates these views. You are setting up a strawman argument.

 

[Nestorius]

Not that scale should matter from my point of veiw but I suppose for a christian leader it's about defending your people against the evils of greed. Is it like, if you get into a fight you don't mind don't mind takin a slap or two but if it's your mother gettin the slap it's whole different ball game. Btw isn't this line of conversation moving back into the messy and quite bloody path of christianity?

That's what I'm trying to say is the problem with Bible ethics. All the practical political foreign policy and war injunctions are in the Old Testament. The problem of Jerusalem as described in the story was fairly simple... when it obeyed the Mosiac law and governed itself along theocratic lines, it prospered, but when it deviated from proper religious observance and ignored the foreign policy advice of the prophets, it suffered catastrophes and punishments.

From the very beginning that Christians took secular power, they continued this same line of reasoning. Unfortunately, the preoccupation of the Old Testament, as understood by the Romanized Christians, was exterminating idolatry and enforcing religious uniformity by any means necessary. This was believed necessary in order to ensure military success, which in those days meant survival. Whenever Christianity becomes a state religion, there are Christian forces that advocate for theocracy and aggressive war against unbelievers because they interpret the Old Testament as telling all human societies to organize themselves like 9th century BC.

 

[Pacem]

This is your theory of naturalism, Pacem. I don't know of any moral philosopher who believes what you say.

You postulate an ideology that regards us being pre-destined in our moral behavior by DNA.

Where not only is there is no right or wrong, there is no good or bad except species survival.

There is no one worthy of notice who advocates these views. You are setting up a strawman argument.

Then present to me an alternate point of view to refute this one with.
In the naturalistic view, we evolve, change and adapt, the changes dictated by our DNA in order to create new physical characteristics and behaviors to better guarantee survival of the species. This is what evolution is (I am playing devil's advocate here).

A strawman still does a pretty good job of scaring away the crows.

 

[Pacem]

And, on another note, you are correct.
To follow what God wants for His people meant reward and blessing, but to go against what God wants did indeed mean punishment. And that is how God should be.

What if He didn't punish us for not obeying? Would he be a good Father? No He'd be a deadbeat that didn't care about us.

As it is now, He rewards us for obeying Him and blesses us without limit. If we disobey Him, He is hurt, and He punishes us for not obeying like any good father should, and at the same time showing us the right way to go so that we do not do it again.

 

[Nestorius]

Then present to me an alternate point of view to refute this one with.
In the naturalistic view, we evolve, change and adapt, the changes dictated by our DNA in order to create new physical characteristics and behaviors to better guarantee survival of the species. This is what evolution is (I am playing devil's advocate here).

Because in Bible and in Greek Philosophy, naturalistic refers to the view that without God, individual power is the greatest Good. Biblically, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were simply Kings, like Pharaoh or Nebuchadnezzar, but with 20th century communications and war technology.

What does evolution have to do with my personal success? What do I care about any greater good like species survival if I want to Dictator? The shark eat shark world is outlined clearly enough in the Bible. The problem I have with the Bible is the solution it offers: rejection of the natural world and the adoption of theocracy.

An alternative view from the Bible that is also in opposition to the naturalistic view would be Plato's Socrates, for example, where moral behavior is approached through the study of philosophy, which is itself approached through discourse and reasoning. In fact, there is much in Christian philosophy and especially in the secondary writings of the Church fathers that was greatly influenced by Platonist philosophy.

 

[Pacem]

Because in Bible and in Greek Philosophy, naturalistic refers to the view that without God, individual power is the greatest Good. Biblically, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were simply Kings, like Pharaoh or Nebuchadnezzar, but with 20th century communications and war technology.

True that, according to the literal definition, they were indeed kings, just like in Bible days but with better technology. I will give you that. But like the bad kings of old that did not follow God and the teachings of Jesus, the kings of the modern age like those you just mentioned will still do horrendous things.

What does evolution have to do with my personal success? The shark eat shark world is outlined clearly enough in the Bible. The problem I have with the Bible is the solution it offers: rejection of the natural world and the adoption of theocracy.

In the natural world, even you will agree that it is survival of the fittest.

What do I care about any greater good like species survival if I want to Dictator?

One animal gets horny for another and mates. A lion, in order to insure his family line survives, kills the cubs of a lioness and then mates with her. Do they care about the greater good of species survival? No. They are doing what is programmed into them by their DNA (called instinct) to do what they need to do. The lion doesn't even think about family lineage survival.

An alternative view from the Bible that is also in opposition to the naturalistic view would be Plato's Socrates, for example, where moral behavior is approached through the study of philosophy, which is itself approached through discourse and reasoning.

In fact, without God, or the belief in ANY god, right and wrong are nothing but the fantacies of every individual person. Sure, each of us has a concept of what is right, but it is only personal opinion.

 

[Mishkam]

In fact, without God, or the belief in ANY god, right and wrong are nothing but the fantacies of every individual person. Sure, each of us has a concept of what is right, but it is only personal opinion.

but with god... right and wrong are meaningless because of predestination.

I have no choice but to do what god made me to do, therefore any "atrocities" I might commit were ordained by god.

 

[Pacem]

but with god... right and wrong are meaningless because of predestination.

I have no choice but to do what god made me to do, therefore any "atrocities" I might commit were ordained by god.

Interesting thought.
But, what is meant by predestination in the Bible is in referring to those that have already become children of God through the acceptance of Jesus as savior.
Once we are His children, we are predestined to do good works through our love of Him. I can give you scripture to that effect if you like.

Nowhere in the Bible though, does it claim that some are predestined to preform atrocities.

 

[DevilHimself]

Interesting thought.
But, what is meant by predestination in the Bible is in referring to those that have already become children of God through the acceptance of Jesus as savior.
Once we are His children, we are predestined to do good works through our love of Him. I can give you scripture to that effect if you like.

Nowhere in the Bible though, does it claim that some are predestined to preform atrocities.

Didn't you wither away and die when Dawson's Creek got cancelled?

 

[Pacem]

Didn't you wither away and die when Dawson's Creek got cancelled?

Nah I barely ever watched the show.

 

[Nestorius]

You are wrong, Pacem, because if we are animals, we are animals that are able to speak and reason, hence capable of philosophy, or as it literally means, 'love of Wisdom'. There are many Pslams dedicated to Wisdom in the Bible, not to mention the story of Solomon who was the wisest man who ever lived (according to the Bible). He didn't have horrible instinct issues or naturalistic views. His problem, although beloved by God, was that he became too tolerant of other religions in the city. Nothing to do with DNA.

On the other hand, it is the story of David or even Jacob that the Bible gives a story of the fittest prospering and surviving over the less fit. Did not Jacob take the birthright of Easu in, if I may say, an underhanded fashion? Did not David epitomize all the martial ideals of vigor and strength? When did David get anywhere by being the weaker man? In coming to power, he used all the resources of a want to be Dictator, but he had God on his side.

 

[Pacem]

You are wrong, Pacem, because if we are animals, we are animals that are able to speak and reason, hence capable of philosophy, or as it literally means, 'love of Wisdom'. There are many Pslams dedicated to Wisdom in the Bible, not to mention the story of Solomon who was the wisest man who ever lived (according to the Bible). He didn't have horrible instinct issues or naturalistic views. His problem, although beloved by God, was that he became too tolerant of other religions in the city. Nothing to do with DNA.

On the other hand, it is the story of David or even Jacob that the Bible gives a story of the fittest prospering and surviving over the less fit. Did not Jacob take the birthright of Easu in, if I may say, an underhanded fashion? Did not David epitomize all the martial ideals of vigor and strength? When did David get anywhere by being the weaker man? In coming to power, he used all the resources of a want to be Dictator, but he had God on his side.

Of course I'm wrong! That is exactly the point.
Might I also add, that Proverbs also deals greatly with wisdom.

 

[Mishkam]

But, what is meant ...

FAIL!!!!!!!!

 

[Nestorius]

Of course I'm wrong! That is exactly the point.
Might I also add, that Proverbs also deals greatly with wisdom.

My mistake, good catch. Psalms is more David, Proverbs is Solomon.

Where I'm saying you are wrong is in your assertions that

1. The Christian Bible is the 100% correct source for ethical knowledge.
2. The ethical requires enforcement by a God in order to be binding.

Both depend on a definition of 'GOOD' and 'TRUTH' as 'whatever the God says it is'. If that was not your underlying meaning, then please correct me.

Socrates, on the other hand, in the 5th century BC was already asking, what is it about the Good which makes it pleasing to the God? I see this theme a little in the Old Testament, too, when the spirit of the law is compared to its empty practice. This might be the way the ancient Jews and Christians became so enamored by Greek Philosophy.

But in this case, Wisdom is not simply a code to be deciphered from the holy texts, but something that lay beyond the outlines of an ethical manual. And just because this is the case doesn't mean the total anarchy of your naturalism. Philosophy actually exists and its not a personal fantasy.

 

[Pacem]

My mistake, good catch. Psalms is more David, Proverbs is Solomon.

Where I'm saying you are wrong is in your assertions that

1. The Christian Bible is the 100% correct source for ethical knowledge.

If the Bible has been proven wrong in any area, please let me know. But to date, it has not.

2. The ethical requires enforcement by a God in order to be binding.

This is true. Not ALL people that reject God do horrible things. There are many "good" people out there that would give you the shirt off their backs if they could.
But this does not say that we do not need God.

In truth, if everyone followed the true God of the Bible and truely followed the teachings of Jesus, you would see no war, no killing or any other crime you see today. Yes I know, there are plenty of wars in the Old Testament depicting the followers of God battling those that did not believe. To the people that pointed this out, I give you due credit for it is true.
But, as I had pointed out earlier in reguards to the harsh laws of Deuteronomy, these were essential in order to preserve His people for what was in store. Am I trying to make excuses? Not really... God stands on His own pretty fairly enough.

 

[The Fallout]

In fact, without God, or the belief in ANY god, right and wrong are nothing but the fantacies of every individual person. Sure, each of us has a concept of what is right, but it is only personal opinion.

Actually nearly all people (barring psycopaths and sociopaths) are born the the desire to do good, feel good, and make others feel good, because that is the best way to live. It is in our instincts. If we treat people badly they will likely treat us badly. We only do bad things because of our environment (child abuse, physical abuse, desperation) or a disorder (socipathic/psycopathic mind).

 

[Nestorius]

Pacem, you ask me to prove to you the Bible being wrong? There are numerous examples where it contradicts mainstream scientific consensus, but you would counter with claims from Creation Science and Biblical Archeology. I would argue the methodology of Creation Science and Biblical archeology collects facts in support of the correctness of its argument, and discredit or ignore anything that contradicts it, so the science is BAD.

In truth, if everyone followed the true God of the Bible and truely followed the teachings of Jesus, you would see no war, no killing or any other crime you see today. Yes I know, there are plenty of wars in the Old Testament depicting the followers of God battling those that did not believe. To the people that pointed this out, I give you due credit for it is true.

Jesus and Paul's teaching tell everyone to love one another and obey authority. If authority governs incompetently, there can be crime and problems despite the piety of the people.

The New Testament does not tell us anything how Christian government functions in the world. How is Christian morality enforced by authority? How does a Christian nation conduct itself in war? How is heresy managed as to not infect the general congregation? If we look to the Bible that was studied by Jesus and Paul, we look to the Old Testament for answers.

 

[Aran]

But didn't you know? Where the bible and science disagree, even if the bible provides nothing more than "I am the bible, so I am right", and science has fifty years of studies, the bible is correct and science is wrong.

 

[Mishkam]

Actually nearly all people (barring psycopaths and sociopaths) are born the the desire to do good, feel good, and make others feel good, because that is the best way to live. It is in our instincts. If we treat people badly they will likely treat us badly. We only do bad things because of our environment (child abuse, physical abuse, desperation) or a disorder (socipathic/psycopathic mind).

wrong.

Morals... ie "right and wrong" are learned constructs not natural instinct.

If you put a child into a society where murder is accepted, or even to the extreme encouraged... that person will have no problem killing.

this is not theory... it has already occurred in many many societies past and present.

 

[The Fallout]

wrong.

Morals... ie "right and wrong" are learned constructs not natural instinct.

If you put a child into a society where murder is accepted, or even to the extreme encouraged... that person will have no problem killing.

this is not theory... it has already occurred in many many societies past and present.

Then why have those societies slowly been removed from our social construct? They still exist, but they aren't staying.

People do good because it is good for them. A society that accepts murder is a dangerous society, so naturall it will be weeded out as it is being weeded out.

I am not saying, "people are good and love each other because that's great and bad can nver happen" people are good because it benefits our species. Also your example proves my point, the child would not accept murder unless his environment dictated it.

 

[Mishkam]

wrong.

Morals... ie "right and wrong" are learned constructs not natural instinct.

If you put a child into a society where murder is accepted, or even to the extreme encouraged... that person will have no problem killing.

this is not theory... it has already occurred in many many societies past and present.

Then why have those societies slowly been removed from our social construct? They still exist, but they aren't staying.

People do good because it is good for them. A society that accepts murder is a dangerous society, so naturall it will be weeded out as it is being weeded out.

missionaries showing up with diseases and bibles happened to alot of them... and I hardly call that "natural causes"

 

[Pacem]

I'm sorry... I am still looking and I need to leave for a bit.
But, I DID find a couple of interesting articles that you may be interested in.
One is a plain text document that seems to be pretty unbiased that looks at both sides of the issue of dating, giving other examples besides Carbon 14 dating.
http://www.grahamkendall.net/Unsorted_files-1/A229-Creationism.txt

The next article deals specifically with the dating of diamonds.
http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/life/A_Diamond_Date/27996/p1/

I already know you'll say both of these are totally wrong on a grand scale. I expect that of you now. But carefully read through them. They are quite interesting reguardless of where you stand.

 

[Altpersona]

Atheistic, evolutionistic and secular belief systems are responsible for more evil and death than all the religious battles of the 20th century combined.
How so? please prove this.

Hitler killed 6 million Jews
lol not really I think he hardly killed any himself actualy though he did inspire others to kill relentlessly for him.

Hitler was a staunch evolutionist that believed in survival of the fittest.

Nope nope nope. He believed in preserving the purity of the gene pool to which he faulted for killing jews since in his veiw they are actualy quite clean compared to other ethnic groups.

The Jews along with other peoples were viewed by both him and those following him to be a species of sub-human

That includes your church then lol I've found no matter how nice the christian when it comes down to Jews they can't stand them as a people.

Hitler, to all Christians, was a horrible monster that did and ordered unspeakable things to be done to millions of innocent people. For someone to think that Hitler was doing right, or think he wasn't a madman is to be considered insane.

Hehe, now would be a good time to put forth the speculation that the church sanctified his actions before everything kicked off. Old habits die hard for your church eh?

Yet if no God truely exists nor ever did exist, they were neither innocent nor guilty. Hitler simply did what is recorded in our DNA through evolution to do what needed to be done, and did nothing wrong whatsoever.

There is nothing in my DNA that says I have to kill to survive. If simple minded animals can go about their lives and not kill each other then I'm sure we can so your argument is moot. True there is potential but that;s the same in all of us wheather we have a god or not.


In fact, without God, or the belief in ANY god, right and wrong are nothing but the fantacies of every individual person. Sure, each of us has a concept of what is right, but it is only personal opinion.

Your bible is just personal opinion lol Everything that is written in thoughs pages are how people interpreted Jesus' actions.

****, murder, abortion, taking advantage of another for your own gain... it is all there in our DNA, according to this view. It is a very bleak scenario. **** is required to purpetuate the species and help it to survive.

Do you read what you type? There is something seriously wrong with you if you really believe that. You make me laugh.

We see it in nature all the time.

where? Please tell me where is it in nature that it's common place to ****? Different mating practises doesn't make it ****. You're putting Human morals on animals. You cannot do that lol

What I have just described is very disturbing. Yet to hold to the totally naturalistic view, it is absolutely required that one also believes in the affore-mentioned scenario as well, or the view has no validity.


Just because I don't follow your crazy view of what a "naturalistic view" of humans are doesn't discredit anything I say. You did this the last time i posted. You tried to make out I was a hypocritcle nazi and anything I my put forth to the debate is worthless because of that fact. I just thought I'd make sure everyone understood what that post was about incase they missed it. I think many would agree your just trolling your BS now.


I implore you, think carefully before making such a decision as this, research and study for yourself what I have related to you previously, and the concequences of the stand you now have. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide where you stand.


That's the thing. I have. I've chosen to for my own opinions with the information I gathered. It's you that is spewing forth only what otehrs have written before you. What the churchs has taught you to say and think.


Now, not meaning to insult you based on your sexual orientation, but at the same time following the "logic" of a totally naturalistic view, consider the following:

If you truely hold to a naturalistic view, homosexuality is absolutely detrimental to the natural order of things in the way that it does absolutely nothing to assist in the propogation of the species.

Actualy, I asked if you though science was of the linieage a naturalistic view? Because my dear if you bothered to read any kind of sociology/psychology books you would find that in the "normal" family that you christians try and foster. Boy, girl, mam and dad, if they are brought up with loveing parents they will both turn out to be bi-sexual. Sciences teachs thoughs that read it's papers that the only norm in actuality is bi-sexuality and anything else is abnormal. Sexuality in the end Is a choice there is no doubt but you need to change how you view sexuality before you can understand what I'm saying. Imagine a bar and each end is gay----straight and in the middle is bi-sexuality. All of us swing on this bar, even if just alittle every day of our lives. Our nature is to seek what pleases us. Sex is just apart of that. It's your morals and judgements that have caused so much suffering. My sexuality is a very small part of what I am.

Maybe you should think about washing your own doorstep before telling me to do the same.

 

[The Fallout]

missionaries showing up with diseases and bibles happened to alot of them... and I hardly call that "natural causes"

LoL Well I can't argue with that. Yet, look at the most progressive and safest countries, low crime rates, bans on physical punishment of children. Sure crime still happens there, but people are naturally more interested in happiness than suffering... in general.

 

[Pacem]

Hmmm, good attempt at trying to negate literally everything there... but you fall WOEFULLY short.

My friend, not only do people go out of control without God, but, since there are NO consequences for actions outside of this life in this view, there is no punishment either.

Plus, you obviously think that insulting people and deriding them is OK. You validate me with your harsh words.

Even with the Christian church, people can be sincerely wrong. I won't deny that either. But now, you are also sincerely wrong. But it should be pointed out, that just like the church supporting Hitler in the beginning, and the Crusades, and the Inquisition etc... in each of these cases, they were definately NOT following the true teachings of Jesus.
Christianity should not be judged by a few misguided followers, but in what Jesus truely taught, and yes, "meant". And one thing Jesus taught is how to treat others.

My friend, I see since that you have no hesitation in insulting other people (me specifically) you do not follow His teachings either. My point is proven in this.

 

[Aran]

Jesus was a communist vagabond. He was That Guy Who Yells Stuff Near Taco Bell.

 

[The Fallout]

My friend, not only do people go out of control without God, but, since there are NO consequences for actions outside of this life in this view, there is no punishment either.

Punishment is not needed to be a good person, punishment is not needed to raise children and it has been done by many parents. (I specifically have examples on youtube of people who group up without punishment). I also must point out again that more secular countries have much better crime rates than the US.

 

[Pacem]

Punishment is not needed to be a good person, punishment is not needed to raise children and it has been done by many parents. (I specifically have examples on youtube of people who group up without punishment). I also must point out again that more secular countries have much better crime rates than the US.

Wow... are you actually saying that we do not need to punish our children for doing bad things? Does that include all forms of correction, including time outs?
And could that also be taken further to include adults? To me it cannot be denied (but from what I've seen here it most likely can and will be because I say it), that people (not all people) do bad things. Should we as adults not be punished for bad things we do? I pray that you never have a problem child and have to find out the hard way.

Parents that discipline their children the correct way, in love, never overdoing it so that it becomes abuse, instill in them a good respect for authority that carries over into adulthood. This translates into respect for the law, and the consequences for breaking the law. It can also carry over into the workplace where people succeed when they do what they are supposed to do.

Now, granted there are SOME cases, where parents bring up their children in such a way, that the idea of doing bad things doesn't enter into the equasion. I envy such people. But to say that discipline and punishment for doing the wrong thing is totally unnecessary in all cases is just not the way it is.

 

[The Fallout]

Actually yes it is called Radical Unschooling. Yes, kids can be raised without enforcing artificial punishment. They usually will be very good people. In fact, there is a big problem with rewards and punishments as outlined by Alfie Kohn in a few of his books and he backs it with substantial amounts of evidence and research. He isn't just talking out of his ass. I can provide you examples of people (meaning a link to their youtube accounts) that raising children in such a way is possible and actually very beneficial IF done correctly.

problem child

No one is born a problem child. People see a child who is more independent and wants to assert their autonomy and then won't give way and makes the good qualities in the kid a problem. Apparently the only "good" kids in out society are the ones that immediately obey our command.

As for the law, it is quite funny, harsher prison sentences are usually equated to worse crime. Punishment isn't a good deterrent. Reform and help is a lot better. Yet, we are more interested in revenge and punishment, and depending on the crime I am too.

One source: http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/12/hard_time_and_r.html

 

[Altpersona]

Hmmm, good attempt at trying to negate literally everything there... but you fall WOEFULLY short.


Please give me details ^^b I can't defend the statements you disagree with if you refuse to debate them and I think every one of my points are valid.

My friend, not only do people go out of control without God, but, since there are NO consequences for actions outside of this life in this view, there is no punishment either.

You allude to punishment being physicle, I direct you to fallouts posts.

Plus, you obviously think that insulting people and deriding them is OK. You validate me with your harsh words.

It's called debate darling, sometimes it comes across as being harsh btu if you want to get into that kind o fmindset it was you that started this thread and it was you that slung the first dung heap at me in "the post".

Even with the Christian church, people can be sincerely wrong. I won't deny that either. But now, you are also sincerely wrong.

Please explain?

But it should be pointed out, that just like the church supporting Hitler in the beginning, and the Crusades, and the Inquisition etc... in each of these cases, they were definately NOT following the true teachings of Jesus.

Certainly correct ^^

Christianity should not be judged by a few misguided followers, but in what Jesus truely taught, and yes, "meant". And one thing Jesus taught is how to treat others.


I totaly agree but it wasn't just the church was it now. To be silent is to consent.

My friend, I see since that you have no hesitation in insulting other people (me specifically) you do not follow His teachings either. My point is proven in this.

If your point is I'm not christian then you're right, I definitely don't follow his teachings and any of my actions that may come across as being similar to a "good christians" behaviour than it's an illusion since I wouldn't equate any of my actions as being contributive to the christian movement.

Please stop trying to project your own issues upon me please and keep to the conversation at hand. I've spent my life thus far shedding peoples expectations of me it's become quite effotless.