The Big Economy Thread

[UOKaiser]

So lots of disagreements, but let's talk about what we do agree upon.

It seems like most of us feel LRC were a huge mistake as far as the economy and removing gold from it.

Probably makes a difference in seige like shards or production pre-aos age but not for production anymore. Back then sure but thats long past.

 

[popps]

You really want to fight inflation in Ultima Online ?

You seriously want to see prices lowering so that new or returning players might be more capable of affording what they need ?

Then stop listening to privileged players and finally give to Ultima Online a Global Search System for Vendors regardless of where they may be located.

Sure, this means making houses in Luna, Tokuno, Magincia all worth the same as any other House in the wilderness but you cannot have the cake and eat it too.

If you really want to fight inflation in this game you must allow for the most competition of pricing as possible.

And that is what a Global Search System for Vendors will allow.

Then you can work on gold drops from Monsters and so forth but ensuring the widest competition possible in the game is, I think, the very first step towards reducing inflation in this game.

Also, monopoly situations like it was allowed for years with Powerscrolls is another bad recipe for inflation.

You must realize that Monopolies allow for inflated prices while extreme competition allow for reduced inflation.

So, whenever you allow players with design choices, to maintain forms of Monopolies and price control, you allow for prices to get inflated. On the contrary, whenever you allow through ingenuous design to have extreme competition among all players, you will allow the fighting of inflation.

I will say it again. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

You cannot appease Luna owners and then want inflation to be defeated. It ain't possible.

This is a time when you gotta make a choice whether it is most important for Ultima Online to fight inflation which affects a multitude of players (including new and returning players...) or whether it is more important to appease a handfull of Luna owners.

That's at least as I see it.

 

[Fat Midnight]

You really want to fight inflation in Ultima Online ?


Then stop listening to privileged players and finally give to Ultima Online a Global Search System for Vendors regardless of where they may be located.



And that is what a Global Search System for Vendors will allow.

How is any player privileged over any other player? Are you implying that because I can afford 10k a week for a Luna vendor that I am somehow at an advantage?

 

[Fat Midnight]

Just checking because the conversation was about gold being introduced to the system "the abyss creatures generate very little gold not even close enough for 1/2 mil in gold a hour" and the only way that occurs normaly for even 1 gold piece to enter is selling to npc,turning bods in, and monster hunting "did I miss any others?" All other gold is distrubuted using the UO trickle down effect getting resources/items from loot/craft to sell. Get things that others with gold want so they can trade you the gold in the system that they have to you. No gold has left the system or enter the system. Theres a hell alot of more ways gold is removed from UO than introduced as I think i named them all.

I get that, but.... I just don`t see what the issue is.

 

[popps]

How is any player privileged over any other player? Are you implying that because I can afford 10k a week for a Luna vendor that I am somehow at an advantage?

No.

The argument is that as long as there is not a system in the game showing all vendors, regardless where they may be, this will not allow for a serious fight of inflation.

It is competition which allows the fighting of inflation and, as I see it, creating a system that allows all vendors to be seen by players will allow players to search for the very best pricing on any given item.

This, clearly, will make it hardly possible for prices to get inflated.

So, as I see it, in order to really fight inflation what ultima Online needs is a Global Search System for Vendors.

 

[Kat]

I don't really like the idea of gold sinks that give something valuable in return. A good amount of gold has been created from duped items and I just can't stomach the thought of those folks being rewarded.

My idea could possibly use some tweaking, but here is the basic concept: Implement a virtual currency. Do away with gold, silver, checks, everything. A players worth would be part of the character inventory at all times. Their currency could possibly be accessed or traded via some sort of gump. A characters insurance rate would be based on a formula which includes a basic value for each item the character is wearing AND on that players wealth. Insurance fees are charged once per real world day, instead of per death. Of course, depending on several factors, the daily rate would likely be significantly higher than current fees.

In an effort to prevent players from storing currency on junk characters for lower fees, insurance fee's are deducted each real world day for each character on an account, whether logged in or not. Inactive accounts are not assessed insurance fees.


*Crawls into a bunker with a Dr Pepper and tub of popcorn!*

I disagree. Either way just want to add some info on your initial paragraph that caught my attention.

Gold dupes occured a very long time ago and those behind it where UO workers and there friends. They not around anymore so the only one you trying to punish are everyone that sold any item in the last decade as well those who received gold from others and homes. Im sure that player that spend 8 months in doom everyday trying for a hat of magi when doom first came out and sold it for 70mil to another player who got his gold from probably spending 5months himself trying to aquiire a orny and sold it to another player that gold from etc.etc.etc.etc. to finaly the origin of the dupe wont appreciate losing there hard earn gold. Finaly item dupe is not gold dupe no gold gets into the UO system that way. It makes the item worthless though. Those who did item dupe just had existing gold in the system transfered to them.

Well, I thought I was clear in my original post, but I wasn't talking about duped gold, I was referring to duped items. Well all know that the number of duped items is staggering.

Further, I am not out to "punish" anyone. Whats done is done. I just don't want to see dupers REWARDED. Ultimately, I am hoping to find a way to help the economy and hopefully keep it in a healthy state, if thats even possible at this point. In any case, the bottom line is that people are going to have to part with gold to get the economy back in check. How that happens is the question.

 

[Fat Midnight]

No.

The argument is that as long as there is not a system in the game showing all vendors, regardless where they may be, this will not allow for a serious fight of inflation.

It is competition which allows the fighting of inflation and, as I see it, creating a system that allows all vendors to be seen by players will allow players to search for the very best pricing on any given item.

This, clearly, will make it hardly possible for prices to get inflated.

So, as I see it, in order to really fight inflation what ultima Online needs is a Global Search System for Vendors.

I would like to see this system implemented. However, I will still corner the market, and set the price as I see fit for certain items. If you look at my shard, I am consistently the lowest price for whatever im selling. Occasionally I do see items that are dramatically under priced( it pays to know when Tim comes around) I will buy and resell.

When the price for seeds of renewal doubled a couple months ago, I raised my prices, but by only %10.

 

[Minerva Foxglove]

I like the idea to rent extra houses. My house is quite isolated as the plots on each side are too small for people to place on. I could have fun decorating or make gardens to match the main building.

I also would beyond doubt pay very well to be able to use the wasted space in a castle and do some custumiceing without blocking wiews for others.

Get rid of IDOCs. Just let everything dissapear. It brings out the worst in people anyways.

Tithing is exellent and mages should have the same option. With or without LRC armour, I dont know, but we should not need to carry reagents ?

Let NPC shops sell 999 of everyting from start. please!

Let NPC pay deascent and buy recources from players that dont mind to work . All colours , and resell more expensive to established players. The gap between the prices is a gold sink. Newish players dont have the contacts to sell directly to the recource needing people . And for buyers its hard to find the ones that have the stamina and time to get the job done.
Most new players theese days dont want to sell ingots for years, they want some cash for a few weeks to get started.
Theese NPCs should just offer the wares when working people had sold to them ..so it would mostly be a way for new players to catch up, not make it alot easier for the old ones.
Ofcourse I would prefer interaction between poor and rich people but population is low and people play at very different hours, atleast here on Europa. It was easier when the shards were crowded, I was one that mined for richer people for years.

I hope whatever is done, that it will help the new people to catch up and not make it worse and more discouraging.

 

[Hunters' Moon]

I am going to post my idea on how the gold in/gold out can work. I will do this w/o reading any of the 100+ replies to the OP. So if I repeat any of the above posts...sorry.




Any effort to lessen the gold in the game should start with which mob would actually have gold as loot. It is my opinion that only humanoids(repond)and dragon types that seek treasure should carry gold as loot. What reason would a dread spider carry gold anyway? It is my feeling that the whole loot tables should be reworked to include more "goods" as loot over just putting gold on a mob. An example: Elementals: They are "summoned" creatures from an ether realm and would not have gold I wouldn't think.Makes no sense that they would have any gold on them at all. They should instead have more "goods" loot as opposed to gold humanoid currency.

 

[Serafi]

New gold sinks could be special vendors introducing special items you wouldn`t get anywhere else, included UO store. If you add such items there it undermines the effect ingame.

These "items" could be timed major buffs for example on crafting skills that currently do not have any, shorter major buffs on stats perhaps that lasts 30 min - 1 hour Buffs that would stack with everything else.

Special "services" like a one time rune to a place you choose that makes you able to summon all party members to you. Would be nice for guild hunts in the Abyss. A one time charge of a forged metal that increase chances of enhancing etc.

Rented items you can place in your house where you need to pay the rent to keep the item useable. Maybe rented versions of some of the vet rewards useable to all. Rented gate that includes all the crystal portal locations and adds a few new ones.

High price set initially but following the same mechanism as the saltpeter vendor, with increasing price as players buy.

The main focus is items that is either used up or where you need to buy rent to keep it. A constant trickle of gold out of the game.

 

[Macrophage999]

UO economy is not so much based on the gold farmed from the mobs as it was before, it is based on the changing hands of the already available gold in the game. Thus, I think gold sinks will help.

However, the main frustration of a new player is seeing items in vendors for 2m, and comparing it to the 1k gold he currently has and 50gp he farms from each skeleton. A quick math reveals that he needs to kill twenty thousand skeletons just to have enough gold to buy that item. We all know it doesnt work like that and the item in consideration is probably quite easy to obtain without buying, but he/she doesnt know that.

My idea of removing two zeros from all the currently available gold in the game is based on those considerations. It is not suggested to remove the gold from the game, but to increase the importance of gold as a loot from the mobs and to give 1 million gold a meaning again. All the npc vendor prices and gold from the mobs stay as they are. What do you think?

Well, if there is a plan to remove from everyone a % of their wealth without touching the npc prices one would just use npc items as their new currency. If you leave untouched the gold generated from monsters, then the richest just have to hoard items so their wealth remain same without having to return to dungeon crawling...
If you divide by 100 the gold, you also have to divide by 100 all the commodities etc, and cash generated through monsters. At least there would be no more problems with one billion trades.

 

[Macrophage999]

I am going to post my idea on how the gold in/gold out can work. I will do this w/o reading any of the 100+ replies to the OP. So if I repeat any of the above posts...sorry.




Any effort to lessen the gold in the game should start with which mob would actually have gold as loot. It is my opinion that only humanoids(repond)and dragon types that seek treasure should carry gold as loot. What reason would a dread spider carry gold anyway? It is my feeling that the whole loot tables should be reworked to include more "goods" as loot over just putting gold on a mob. An example: Elementals: They are "summoned" creatures from an ether realm and would not have gold I wouldn't think.Makes no sense that they would have any gold on them at all. They should instead have more "goods" loot as opposed to gold humanoid currency.

That isnt a sounded idea. It would just favour the people who hoarded millions over the years against the ones who would lose many opportunities to generate any gold.

 

[Macrophage999]

LRC suits. Ditch them.

You obviously didn't play before LRC and when sometimes you couldn't play your mage because it was impossible to find regs. Besides that, that would only affect pvprs. Even in the old times, the cost of regs was marginal compared to your earnings in pvm.

 

[Macrophage999]

You have vendors. You have vendor fees. The vendor fees are fine.

The vendor taxes are too high and are the main reason why only the "magical" vendors survived (luna and such). By setting the vendor fees so high UO cut all competition into item pricing and made many players quit. Though, I think nowadays, the player base is so low that I don't think vendor fees have any grip on the game.

 

[Macrophage999]

The UO system needs checks and balances. You are right.

Compete is all relative. If a player comes in and is willing to play the game for 90 days. They can build up their wealth very easily.

The one that leave want to much to quickly. That also ruins the game.

Since it's a game people who are joining and can't compete in any compartment of the game needs to be able to catch up without having to do dull and boring stuff for 300 or 400 hours...

 

[Macrophage999]

Oh so wrong. If that's the case, then only do it on the Europe shards, they like that kinda stuff. Leave the American shards alone. Wealth redistribution never works....never has, never will.

This is such a tired argument. If you're poor, learn what it takes to make money. Just like in real life. If you can't commit the time, it's understandable, but no one is entitled to the same as anyone else. Get out what you put in.

That is a stupid statement. Redistribution works fine. And Europe is number1 economy in the world...

Now about the rest of your post: UO is NOT real life. If noone wants to do the time, then noone plays the game. On the other hand, since it's a game, competition is a fair play style and thus should be left untouched. (games without competitions are usually not really appealing).

 

[Beastmaster]

Another idea.

Reduce all housing secure storage capacities to their lockdown count. So in effect you could have no more than twice the lockdown count in a home. Then rent out secure storage boxes at banks at premium prices.

 

[Woodsman]

Get rid of IDOCs. Just let everything dissapear. It brings out the worst in people anyways.

There is stuff that would be lost forever if IDOCs just disappeared. Ever since the random house placement timer was put into effect, it's not a problem of sweating over somebody dropping a house.

Let NPC shops sell 999 of everyting from start. please!

Let NPC pay deascent and buy recources from players that dont mind to work

There was an example earlier about how easy it is to exploit the NPCs with buying and selling bottles. That's an easy bit of money for scripters, and you have to weigh that and other items that can be sold like that and taken advantage of by the scripters.

You obviously didn't play before LRC and when sometimes you couldn't play your mage because it was impossible to find regs. Besides that, that would only affect pvprs. Even in the old times, the cost of regs was marginal compared to your earnings in pvm.

On the contrary, I can remember when it was worth picking up regs off the ground or buying them from other players. It was a gold sink and LRC suits, while I'm sure they sounded like a good idea in whatever meetings were held, ultimately just made UO cheaper and easier.

 

[Woodsman]

I would like to see this system implemented. However, I will still corner the market, and set the price as I see fit for certain items. If you look at my shard, I am consistently the lowest price for whatever im selling. Occasionally I do see items that are dramatically under priced( it pays to know when Tim comes around) I will buy and resell.

I raised this very issue back in February, since I made a lot of gold in World of Warcraft doing this very thing - I kept an eye on certain items that were constantly being used up, and I made it a point to buy them out low and resell them high.

There is no stopping somebody like me or you from doing that, but at the same time, if you had either a vendor search or an auction house, there is nothing stopping anybody else from doing it and such a system is a great equalizer. I argued that the rich could use it to get richer, however that was a poorly thought out argument, since that is happening under the current system, and since the non-rich and non-Luna vendors are currently at a disadvantage, especially as certain search sites are expanding their searches geography-wise to other prime real estate areas. They offer Luna and Zento searches and I'm sure that New Magincia will be added.

Somebody claimed that the devs would never implement such a system because it would lower the value of Luna owners, but I've never been able to see that claim backed up - I think that was just somebody with a chip on their shoulder against the Luna vendors or the devs implying that the devs cared more about Luna vendors than the rest of us.

I think that the time has come for some kind of vendor search or auction system. I don't think the New Magincia bazaar will help, since the rich will easily win the bids on it - it's not a random lottery, it's whoever is willing to pay a lot for those vendors. Put in some kind of vendor search/auction house and make it easier for players outside of Luna and Zento to compete. Maybe have it just be a vendor search and allow for players to be teleported to the vendors they are interested in.

If there are going to be new players coming into the game, they need to have a chance to participate in the vendor system as well, and a vendor search would help with that. I've seen new/returning players being told in game to go hit up the illegal third-party search sites, and I don't think that aspect of the game can be ignored. It would be better if a legal vendor search was provided in game, one that didn't benefit only those living in Luna or Zento.

I think it could help quite a bit with inflation and ridiculous pricing for items that newer players might be interested in. Newer players are going to be told by somebody to hit up the third party search sites or to head to Luna and I don't think either of those two things are very good things to be pointing new players to.

 

[Macrophage999]

There is stuff that would be lost forever if IDOCs just disappeared. Ever since the random house placement timer was put into effect, it's not a problem of sweating over somebody dropping a house.
There was an example earlier about how easy it is to exploit the NPCs with buying and selling bottles. That's an easy bit of money for scripters, and you have to weigh that and other items that can be sold like that and taken advantage of by the scripters.
On the contrary, I can remember when it was worth picking up regs off the ground or buying them from other players. It was a gold sink and LRC suits, while I'm sure they sounded like a good idea in whatever meetings were held, ultimately just made UO cheaper and easier.

You cannot be serious. Noone ever made some serious profits out of picking up regs from the ground. Consider how long it takes and what you could do in that time. Pre LRC era and pre 999 vendors was all about who was logged at the time the biggest merchants would respawn... People who could only play during peak time would spend their time hunting for regs. Nowadays, with the 999 system, it would only favour script buying. The supply and demand system is working exactly as designed. If bottles are being sold for 40 in a vendor it means someone has been buying them at 41, so even if a player bought them for 5 gp, there has actually been more money removed from the game than introduced. The smart player who bought them at 5 gp has a positive balance, while the other guy has a negative one. But overall, gold vanished.

 

[Woodsman]

You cannot be serious. Noone ever made some serious profits out of picking up regs from the ground.

I didn't say that, I said I can remember when people would pick them up because it was worth it - I'm not talking about people wandering around picking up regs to sell, just if you saw one on the ground, you picked it up.

Pre LRC era and pre 999 vendors was all about who was logged at the time the biggest merchants would respawn.. People who could only play during peak time would spend their time hunting for regs.

It was possible to play a mage pre-LRC without spending all your time focused on getting regs - I did it for years. I even had a mage on Siege, which is a lot more difficult. One of my main money makers on production shards, next to mining, was full runebooks and I did just fine pre-LRC. I also sold a lot of potions and kegs and I am keenly aware of what the reg market was like in regards to obtaining them.

I still don't think the solution should be a system that just eliminates the need for regs, because that just dumbs down the system and removes what was a regular gold sink.

Reagents were also an important part of the Ultima games and I tend to like anything that is still a link to the original Ultima games.

Nowadays, with the 999 system, it would only favour script buying. The supply and demand system is working exactly as designed. If bottles are being sold for 40 in a vendor it means someone has been buying them at 41, so even if a player bought them for 5 gp, there has actually been more money removed from the game than introduced.

If a scripter buys at 5 gp and sells to another NPC elsewhere at 20 gp or more, then there has not been more money removed from the game. More money has been generated. TullyMars explained how you can do it legally, and you can bet the scripters take advantage of it:

Do you realize I can buy 1000 empty potion bottles from the termur alchemists for 5000 gold, throw them in my beetle, head off to another town and sell them for 40000 gold or more, go back and buy another 1000 bottles for 6000 gold rinse and repeat until the profit margin is no longer there. Then the next day the bottles that raised in price are back down to 5 gold each again?!

It's not just bottles - ingots can be gamed as well. It's not good when you take advantage of a game mechanism to play the NPCs off against one another for easy gold, because it's too easy to script since it doesn't even require resource gathering.

 

[CovenantX]

The "gold sinks" will work if they added more than one at a time....

one patch for one boat that costs 150m

should have been one patch for 10-20 "gold sinks" items/deco whatever.


one sink keeps people occupied for a very short time, even at 150m. you can get lucky in a spawn or so and make that much with the drops you get.

 

[Bill Gates OSD]

You really want to fight inflation in Ultima Online ?

You seriously want to see prices lowering so that new or returning players might be more capable of affording what they need ?

Then stop listening to privileged players and finally give to Ultima Online a Global Search System for Vendors regardless of where they may be located.

Sure, this means making houses in Luna, Tokuno, Magincia all worth the same as any other House in the wilderness but you cannot have the cake and eat it too.

If you really want to fight inflation in this game you must allow for the most competition of pricing as possible.

And that is what a Global Search System for Vendors will allow.

Then you can work on gold drops from Monsters and so forth but ensuring the widest competition possible in the game is, I think, the very first step towards reducing inflation in this game.

Also, monopoly situations like it was allowed for years with Powerscrolls is another bad recipe for inflation.

You must realize that Monopolies allow for inflated prices while extreme competition allow for reduced inflation.

So, whenever you allow players with design choices, to maintain forms of Monopolies and price control, you allow for prices to get inflated. On the contrary, whenever you allow through ingenuous design to have extreme competition among all players, you will allow the fighting of inflation.

I will say it again. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

You cannot appease Luna owners and then want inflation to be defeated. It ain't possible.

This is a time when you gotta make a choice whether it is most important for Ultima Online to fight inflation which affects a multitude of players (including new and returning players...) or whether it is more important to appease a handfull of Luna owners.

That's at least as I see it.

*Like* Totally agree. A global vendor search is necessary and will create competition and eliminate monopoly situations such as Luna and soon, Magincia. Hell, take it a step further and have the vendors charge a slightly higher rate to be listed in the global search function. I'd pay it and gladly!

As to the method for the global search, I suggest making an NPC sell something like a shopping mall rune, for the lack of a better term, that you would use to access the system, you then search from within the game and there would be a button to "buy this item now" that will essentially deliver the item to you or, since you are so amazed at the fair prices of this particular vendor, a "take me there!" button that will take you to the vendor via either recall or SJ. If you have neither skill, you'd have to charge the shopping mall rune with recall scrolls.

This is unrelated but, I suggest taking ALL vendor sold and loot scrolls out of the game entirely. That will create demand for scribes. Take ALL vendor sold and loot potions out of the game entirely. Create a demand for alchemists. The same goes for every other commodity. MAKE this a player-driven economy.

On another totally unrelated note: Make wooden things recycleable. We can smelt armor and weapons via the salvage bag and get 50% of our materials back. We should be able to do the same thing with wooden items even if all we get back are arrow/bolt shafts. Ok, I'm done for the moment!

 

[HD2300]

No to gold sinks. Anything that will encourage more gold sellers is bad.

Inflation happens in the real life anyway.

Yes to bigger checks. Make the limit 10,000,000 instead of 1,000,000. That should be easy to do because it is just changing a 1,000,000 to 10,000,000 in the code.

 

[Macrophage999]

If a scripter buys at 5 gp and sells to another NPC elsewhere at 20 gp or more, then there has not been more money removed from the game. More money has been generated.

There is something you failed to understand. if the bottles are sold for 20 elsewhere, it means someone bought 2K bottles at 5gp (or maybe only 1K if they fixed it), then 2K at 6 gp, then 2K at 7 gp etc... until 21 gp per bottle. When the npc buys at 20 it means he sold at 21: 1gold removed from game per bottle. The initial buying of 5 gp per bottle is 5 gp removed pre bottle from the game....

 

[Bill Gates OSD]

I just had another thought. Yeah, that's right. Be very scared!

Along with the idea for scribes goes that that will create a demand for reagents for them to make scrolls but also a demand for blank scrolls. My memory might be faulty but I seem to recall being able to make scrolls from leather back in the early days of UO. Those might have only been usable by cartographers though. Make REGULAR leather usable / convertible by scribes into blank scrolls. This will create demand for leather. Stop NPC tailors from selling leather. Stop NPC cartographers, scribes, mages etc from selling collectible resources altogether.

On second thought, maybe wood pulp would be the better material for blank scrolls. Wood pulp could come from recycling wooden items that are currently not recyclable.

 

[R Traveler]

Gold sink. Cross shard mail
Works like bag of sending but to other shard for money.
Base price is 1m gp for one item next week delivery, sender pay.
Some options like:
5m gp for next day delivery
10m gp for next hour delivery

+50% tax in case receiver pay.

Tokens still have use, since allow transfer of lot more items and char at once.

EDIT: light mail for player written books only for RP purpose for 10-100k.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Apologies for not reading most of the replies in the thread.

The following is a close variant on something I posted on 27 March.

I am ever-less convinced that having a lot of gold around is all that much of an issue.

They would it be an issue? I can think of two arguments. Inflation and wealth disparity.

• Inflation

Is inflation the concern? Do we have UO inflation hawks here?

If you look closely at prices, they have actually gone down for some useful, or essential, items. Indeed sometimes prices have gone down enough that people complain prices are too low. I remember people on GL whining in global chat that GL was an "ignorant" shard because no one would pay over-inflated prices for, say, a metallic dye tub.

Prices on the Ornament of the Magician are down from a few years ago, down markedly. Crimson Cinctures are in the 12m to 15m range on GL; I usually sell for 10m because I'm all about the quick sale. Imbuing has made, say, an excellent demon slayer radiant scimitar decline from 20m in value to 3.5m in value. The catch is that it's imbued and will break down sooner or later; but by the time it has gone down in value you will have made enough money to buy another one. There is a shop near Yew that sells very respectable armor from anyplace from 5k to 100k a pop; those prices are all within range given time. For a little more gold there's a nice shop near Zento. This armor would have cost a lot more a few years ago.

Barbed Runic Kit prices are way down from just a couple of years ago.

So if it's inflation, rest assured that the prices for some useful or essential items have gone down enough to suggest that in UO inflation is uneven enough to in effect render it a non-concern.

• Wealth Disparity

Is wealth disparity the issue?

Well, money is surely available. The catch is you need to hit a certain level of effectiveness before you can start making it. For an experienced player who is tired of being cash-poor? This is actually fairly easy. Demons, dread spiders, lesser hiryus, dragons (not greaters), those two-legged wolf demon thingies from Tokuno, troglodytes....All examples of monsters within range of a mid-level player that have great gold return.

The mid-range of monsters is very wide in this game. If anything some of them need to have, slightly, more gold, so a newer player can catch up faster.

And then of course there's joining a guild and talking them into chaining Corguls or chaining the Doom Gauntlet. An excellent way to make money, and to find good equipment, or at least relic fragments, along the way.

To me, wealth disparity is only an issue if it prevents those at the low end from getting what they want or need, and/or from eroding the disparity. When wealth is not zero-sum and someone without wealth can reasonably acquire it? Then I do not see the issue.

Where the failure is, is in a brand new player (we do get a few of those, just not a lot) trying to come up to speed and become viable. Even that's doable if you have someone teach you the tricks. (Make your first 20k to 100k on ettins; it'll take forever but then you can buy better armor and move on to earth elementals and demons.) So even the failure isn't complete. And even this failure isn't an economic situation; it's a new player experience situation.

I knew a guy who made a lot of money on crystal elementals.

And finally let's not forget one of UO's least-sung truths, which I wouldn't have realized had I not sent a character of mine on a random "wander around the map and explore" quest: There's a lot more casual players in this game than we give credit for. There are players who just log in and live out their characters' daily lives, killing, say, solen infiltrators to buy the bay new shoes and have enough left to kick back with some ale. For those players, neither inflation nor wealth disparity are all that much of an issue as long as they can get what they want and need. We at Stratics are not the entirety, or even the majority, of the UO player base, though we appear to want to think so.


• Conclusions

To me, inflation and wealth disparity would only be an issue in UO if they prevented characters from obtaining the equipment they needed and from functioning in the economy, from living their lives.

We are fortunate in that UO's "open faucet" system in effect insures that this is unlikely. And as the team's already pointed out, the faucet may need to be opened a bit more to ensure that newer players can get in faster. I suggest merely doubling the gold on some of the lower-end monsters of UO's long mid-range. Say, ettins, trolls, ogres. Things it is traditional for noob characters to fight to bring themselves up to speed. From 100gold to 200gold to 200gold to 400gold.

People refer to UO's economy as "broken" but the reality is that it's still functioning as an economy. And that's really all that counts. Neither inflation nor deflation nor wealth disparity are all that pressing, as none of them, at present, impinge seriously on the functioning of the game.

Regardless of your RL political or economy orientation, regardless of your stance on welfare or monetary policy, you simply must try and recognize that the RL economic rules don't apply in UO. The RL economy may or may not be zero/sum. UO's, however, definitely is not.


• Additional Thoughts

The temptation to use RL economics to understand the in-game economy should be resisted for two reasons. One, this is not an RL economy, it is a game, and the "economy" is less of an economy than it is a game mechanic. In single-player games, the economy in effect becomes a sub-game that most players have no problem winning. In an MMO, the economy has aspects resembling an economy but it still isn't one in any meaningful sense. It's a game mechanic. And messing with it is as tricky, or more tricky, as messing with any game mechanic.

Two, RL economics has a hard enough time explaining its own RL subject matter. Academic economics tends to forget how culturally dependent economies are, for example. And tend to foolishly see their own discipline as more of a hard science, analogous to physics or chemistry, and not as what it is, which is a social science, more analogous to sociology or anthropology than to physics or biology or chemistry.

(It is worth noting that some of the classical economists, David Ricardo and Adam Smith come to mind, were nowhere near as absolutist in their writings as contemporary economists are in theirs. Those guys understood what they were studying.)

In-game taxes are a bad idea, and I say that as someone who had sympathy for the notion not too long ago. But then I actually thought about it. IRL, you pay taxes and, whether you realize it or not, get services for them. Roads, cops, public schools, public universities, the Congressional Research Service, etc. In-game the most you could really do would be to obviously upgrade the guards' uniforms or something like that, or start putting in more impressive buildings. And that isn't really the same thing.

Gold sinks are always fine because they are optional. But as others have pointed out, they are a one-time sink in an open-faucet system. Not necessarily a bad thing.

And finally: Until you can eliminate duping we won't even really know what the in-game economy "should" be per game mechanics alone.

-Galen's player

 

[AzSel]

Make an ingame vendor like UOgamecodes.com...sells the same things, but with ingame gold?

 

[Sprago]

IMO
1. higher npc vendors supply meaning instead of buying 20 at first players would be able to purchase the full amounts 999 from npc vendors i think more people would buy straight from npc's
2. double the cost of insurance and lower the amount that you would get back for killing someone i actually dont think you should get anything for that but not the point
3. allow us to purchase gametime codes ingame (i know this is far fetched because then ea not making the $$$ they could be)

i dont think taxes or lower mobs gold output or anything like that should be introduced

Take a look at siege we dont have these kinda problems prodo shards have. in siege we very easily can be killed in a dugeon and could lose our whole suit then we gotta go spend money to re obtain these items our gold doesnt build like it does on other shards. we dont have insurance so items continueosly decaying and going through its normal process insurance delays this process hard core. also another point in siege we dont all use LRC so again we actually buy regs and stuff from npc vendors i imagine prodo shards dont have a big npc bussiness

 

[AzSel]

.. prodo shards dont have a big npc bussiness

Yea update npc business, money go poof, and not to other players..

 

[Hell's Ironworks]

About vendor fees :

eliminate the current system and in place, implement a 10% commission upon a sale. That would greatly help to keep the small , outside of luna vendors up.

About LRC : Dont do away with it. But implement a daily or weekly fee to recharge.

About the global vendor search tool :

Yes

About the gold held on mobs :

I fail to understand how this is a problem. Imo , the problem with the amout of gold in game is in part due to things like BOD scripters , like POF bods.

About the charity titles : great idea

About the second plot rents : Its a good idea but it would most likely only work well on deserted shards with alot of space to spare, On Atl , sure there are a couple of 7x7s available here and there, sometimes bigger if you're lucky. But then what about the new players that want to place a small first house?

I would instead rent spaces inside citys in existing buildings. Or create a couple of new buildings for that purpose where players could rent for a high price .

 

[Madrid]

People refer to UO's economy as "broken" but the reality is that it's still functioning as an economy. And that's really all that counts. Neither inflation nor deflation nor wealth disparity are all that pressing, as none of them, at present, impinge seriously on the functioning of the game.

 

[virtualhabitat]

I just had another thought. Yeah, that's right. Be very scared!

Along with the idea for scribes goes that that will create a demand for reagents for them to make scrolls but also a demand for blank scrolls. My memory might be faulty but I seem to recall being able to make scrolls from leather back in the early days of UO. Those might have only been usable by cartographers though. Make REGULAR leather usable / convertible by scribes into blank scrolls. This will create demand for leather. Stop NPC tailors from selling leather. Stop NPC cartographers, scribes, mages etc from selling collectible resources altogether.

On second thought, maybe wood pulp would be the better material for blank scrolls. Wood pulp could come from recycling wooden items that are currently not recyclable.

I agree with the general idea to make player skills a must for the economy to work.

After my exchange with some others last night, I gave this some thought.

AS a newer player, working skills could generate gold if the newer player had some sort of access to a vendor (global vendor search?) instead of just selling back to the NPC they would be inserted into the player economy immediately.

This is particularly true if the skills are producing consumables like blank scrolls (lumberjack) magic scrolls (scribe) potions (alchemist) Tools (tinkers).
I have been training a bard of late. I need non-exceptional instruments. Training carpenters could make those.
It would be nice if you could choose to make a non-exceptional item as well.

I believe this would have a positive effect on the economy, give new players something to do that gets them into the general society (not another mind numbing quest) and also give purpose to many skills just sitting around. collecting dust.

Have a look at the NPC vendors. Is there anything that could not be made and sold by a player? Little boats by carpenter so and so. House placement tool, decorators by the local tinker. I think it would be cool.

Imagine having to go to the Luna vendor mall because you need to buy some potion bottles from the glassblower vendor. Maybe stop off at the player tavern there (yes, imagine cooks being able to run a player tavern in Luna and make money because everyone needed to eat) for some lunch because you need a full stomach before you go kill the dragon for that barbed leather you've been needing.

If players are consuming the production of other players it's a good thing.

Money circulates. People, even the non-rich might feel more like they are making progress when someone is seeking them out, wanting what they have.

 

[Lord Essex]

Does the economy function right now.. Simple answer.. Yes..

Does the economy function well??.. Well depends on who you ask..

I think the majority of us reguardless of our current situation can agree it could be improved. A long time ago 1mil was almost unheard of.. There was a reason few people had castles.. not only was it difficult to find a place to put them.. but they were EXPENSIVE to place at 865k (relative to the amount of gold ingame).. Today 13+ years later the price of the castle hasn't hasn't changed, yet the quanity of gold in the game HAS & by an insane amount. In the end what this does is even further devalue the gold thats created through hunting/crafting/selling. This hurts the new/young players who are starting out killing mongbats, selling basic loot and working on crafting skills. If gold is eliminated (Gold Sinks, Charity Titles, Capping LRC Totals, Increasing Insurance Costs w/ a lower payout & Update the NPC vendor system) then the value will raise again, giving the new/young players a better starting point when it comes to economy.

 

[Cax Gavigan]

Convert to a new currency base. By creating a new currency we would, in effect, hit a reset button on the economy. Here's how it would work:

- the new currency is introduced (for discussion lets call it the Uro).
- those holding the old Gold currency will need to convert their gold to the new Uro thru an in-game money changer.
- unchanged gold and gold checks will need to be removed from every account by the UO game gods.
- here's the beauty part: each account (not character)is limited to a maximum amount of Uro's that they can buy. Again, just for discussion let's set an arbitrary amount like $25 million.
- the result: billions are eliminated overnight. The gold brokers and dupers are out of luck. And we again have a new economy.

One problem with this method: if the currency change date is known in advance, those with excessive gold will buy everything and anything they can get their hands on in the days leading up to the conversion date. The result will be a massive spike in inflation and the very people who distort the economy the most will have the greatest possessions in the new economy. The ideal solution is to have the gods perform the conversion overnight and unannounced.

Thoughts?

That is a really really good idea. No sarcasm. Though I'd substantially lower the amount of "Uros" a player can purchase per account.

 

[jtw1984]

Promote capitalism to fix economy. Make a shard auction house. This will decrease value of items and at same time promote competition.

I say get rid of gold on mobs to begin with. Promote crafting to the point it is almost required to make money.

Make ultra rare items account bound.

Just remember that inflation is brought on by the fact people could get more gold than was in demand.

I treat the developers as the central bank of ultima. It is up to you guys to make sure no more gold is coming into
The economy than is necessary.

 

[popps]

Convert to a new currency base. By creating a new currency we would, in effect, hit a reset button on the economy. Here's how it would work:

- the new currency is introduced (for discussion lets call it the Uro).
- those holding the old Gold currency will need to convert their gold to the new Uro thru an in-game money changer.
- unchanged gold and gold checks will need to be removed from every account by the UO game gods.
- here's the beauty part: each account (not character)is limited to a maximum amount of Uro's that they can buy. Again, just for discussion let's set an arbitrary amount like $25 million.
- the result: billions are eliminated overnight. The gold brokers and dupers are out of luck. And we again have a new economy.

One problem with this method: if the currency change date is known in advance, those with excessive gold will buy everything and anything they can get their hands on in the days leading up to the conversion date. The result will be a massive spike in inflation and the very people who distort the economy the most will have the greatest possessions in the new economy. The ideal solution is to have the gods perform the conversion overnight and unannounced.

Thoughts?

"The ideal solution is to have the gods perform the conversion overnight and unannounced. "


The key question would be, can we really think that, one way or the other, the word won't spread out from friend to friend and eventually become known ??

I mean, this is a change that will take sometime to develop, test and then put in in a publish. Even though it would be best if 1 Developer only worked on it with the highest secrecy, realistically, I think it would be hard to limit the number of people working on it.

And then we have the "friends" issue. And friends have other friends, they have Guildmates who have other friends and so forth.

Once the word gets out to 1 friend, inevitably, I think, given time, it will spread out from friend to friend, from guildmate to guildmate.

So, I find it realistically difficult to be implemented in real secrecy and eventually some will be hurt a whole lot by it and some (those better informed and friend of a friend...) will not.

A good idea but close to impossible to be implemented as correctly as it should.

Therefore, I must conclude, not a realistically implementable idea. Unfortunately.

 

[UOKaiser]

Since it's a game people who are joining and can't compete in any compartment of the game needs to be able to catch up without having to do dull and boring stuff for 300 or 400 hours...

Depends who you ask. The dull boring stuff is actually the game and end game for me and others. PVP players are the ones interested in skipping this type of game and heading to competition. PVP is opposite of the other game styles. Whats boring to pvp is highly fun to others. Whats highly fun to others is a nusance to pvp.

 

[UOKaiser]

I get that, but.... I just don`t see what the issue is.

Remmeber the way most players obtain gold in the game to actually be rich themselves is by selling to us who are rich already. Sure we like paying less for more but this hurts those who trying to reach where we at. There just have to be more stuff priced higher because of usability so that a peice of our wealth will go to them when they make the effort in selling us something we want. The things already in existance has to be more useful the harder it is to get not a waste of space.

 

[UOKaiser]

Promote capitalism to fix economy. Make a shard auction house. This will decrease value of items and at same time promote competition.

I say get rid of gold on mobs to begin with. Promote crafting to the point it is almost required to make money.

Make ultra rare items account bound.

Just remember that inflation is brought on by the fact people could get more gold than was in demand.

I treat the developers as the central bank of ultima. It is up to you guys to make sure no more gold is coming into
The economy than is necessary.

This will keep gold with us the wealthy and the poorer players will have no chance at all to even see our horizons in wealth.

 

[AesSedai]

... If you divide by 100 the gold, you also have to divide by 100 all the commodities etc, and cash generated through monsters. At least there would be no more problems with one billion trades.

- Yup that has been my theory...

Truncation

Both gold and items; all per account (banks, backpacks, lock downs, player vendors). Or in the least all the most valuable, potentially highly duped, items. If X>10 then X=X/10, and then if X<10 then X=9... this way 100 becomes 10 and people with less than 100 would still have 9 of each item/gold, if they had 10 or more to begin with. All items per account would have to be added together because many valuable items cannot be stacked.

I feel it would be rather development intensive.

I also feel it would be ruined the next time some type of dupe happens and there aren't enough GM's or developers to quickly squash and remove the dupers.

As such, I do not see it being of any benefit, at this time, because it would require too many resources to implement and there does not seem to be enough available to then protect the equal/fair removal of ~90% of all that is out there (and improve the new & active player experience).

Besides, many people would scream bloody murder over losing 90% of the items that they have more than 100 of... even though everyone would lose (& inevitably gain..) the same amount and it would dramatically improve the economy and the gaming experience for most all; even though many of the wealthiest players may not be able to see the benefit of losing their stuff in order to gain more people that want to interact with them and have their stuff...
See Vex, I think 'flat taxing' in a manner such as this would greatly benefit the economy / the game. But it would take a stealth move and a good PR crew to allow people to understand the benefits. For one thing it should never be associated with taxing. This is simply truncating for the betterment of the game, and thus providing increased enjoyment of all involved with it.

 

[Derium of ls]

I say tax around 5% when making/breaking checks. Tax when an item sells off a vendor at a few %. things like this.

As for you wanting it to have a point. Then have a rares/decoration/whatever NPC that sells you items with points you've earned.

points what?

Whenever your character/account pay a tax, then you earn points (kinda like how debit card points work). Then when you earned enough points you can spend them at certain vendors that sell ONLY point earned items. Every few months retire the items and add new ones.

yes it's forcing gold out of people pockets, but it's giving them possible rewards also.

 

[Blind Otto]

Re: On Gold Sinks and Pricing

Are you absolutely certain that the currency rate of Siege is comparable to that of production shards?

I would venture a guess that many popular commodities/items on other shards are considered useless or near useless on Siege because of the lack of insurance and/or because acquiring them from a location with no recall just isn't worth the hassle for most people. As a result, I don't think you can set prices, fees, costs, or whatever at one rate on the non-Siege shards and then multiply that price/fee/cost by some factor for Siege and call it good.

Also, keep in mind that not everyone who plays on Siege plays somewhere else. I've met quite a few people there that have only played on Siege for many years. I'm sure they have no interest whatsoever in trading in their gold on Siege for gold somewhere else or vice versa.

I agree with this. The only times I have set foot off Siege in the past decade or more have been to advertise Siege - and you can count those occasions on one hand. My rather limited pile of gold is insufficient to place a castle, and I consider myself lucky if I have a few thousand gp in the bank.

Items are collected for the sake of collecting, rather than to add to Luna bank's living decor exhibit. Some are kept because they bear the makers mark of long-gone friends. None of this has any bearing on the economy whatsoever.

So, in short, if and when anything is done to the general economy of UO, please remember that Siege does exist. Whether you WANT it to exist or not is beside the point - right now, it does, and many of it's residents are not rolling in gold. We may WISH we were, but we're not.

 

[Zosimus]

A while back I mentioned in another thread about having items created and account bound. I will bring it up again since a Dev is asking questions. If you want to get rid of large amounts of gold in the game then use what works.......... pixel crack.

1) Make items that are account bound only and can be only bought from a NPC.


2) If possible make new mounts that have a limited time use that are account bound. Example: Make a Griffon/Pegasus/Arachne(spider) that has 30 days use of purchase with gold. It works as a real mount. Can be killed and rezzed but can not bond.


3) Make new clothing items for role players with no properties and account bound. They can be imbued with properties if wanted or not. Make durabilty on items at 255 and PoF can not be used on them. Items can be repaired like normal clothing and armor. This gives roleplayers a choice if they want to be a certain character. Say a person wants to be a pirate or a knight. They can buy the items with gold from a NPC and imbue or not on the item. Just like the Mag plots the gold is not transfering to other players but it just disappears.


4) Possible new housing tiles and house decorations bought from a NPC and account bound. Example: Add Gargoyle statues for players who want that medieval feel to their houses. Gardening tiles that you can plant in and actually grow plants for the gardeners.


5) PvP Buffs that can be bought from a NPC with a limit of 2 buffs a day and have 24 hour use. Comes in potion form and account bound. Once the potion is drank the timer starts. A player needs that extra +2 mana regen, 15 DCI, 15 HCI, 20 DI, and ect ect.


These are just a few ideas but the main point of is to make these NPC items account bound and the gold basically disappears and not back into another players hands. They can't sell or trade for such items. They have to spend gold on these account bound items for themselves if they want them. Doesn't have to be overly expensive for a gold sink but a gold sink still in small amounts.

There will be many against account bound items but with the vast amount of items UO already has and that are tradeable this will not hurt with special NPC items. These items are not for players to profit from but for players to have goals to buy items they would want with their own gold. Players are not forced to buy account bound items. Its the choice of the players to buy them and KNOW they are account bound.

 

[claudia-fjp]

You can't look at it from the perspective of a real legitimate Economy. Countless dupes over the past 13 years have added many many many Trillions of gold to UO. If a player has 1 Billion gold chances are a large part of that gold never saw the inside of a monsters corpse. Sure they may play within the rules but the origin of much of the gold is most likely shady.

If people in a country started printing out counterfeit money that was indistinguishable from the government printed money what do you think would happen? Hyperinflation. The government would have to switch to a new currency because the old one would become valueless. In the real world when hyperinflation happens (most recently in Zimbabwe) frequently a government will redenominate the currency say $1,000,000 is now $1,000 (changing all gold in UO to a lower % of its current value)and sometimes even give up on the currency all together (gold wipe).

In UO it's gotten so bad people hardly bother to loot monsters anymore, go to an event and wait for a corpse to become freely lootable by all. You'll find 4k+ piles of gold. How many monsters do you think have their gold looted at champ spawns?

Any gimmicky gold sink or tax is pointless when the root of the problem was never dealt with. Trillions were duped and never deleted. Remove it either by % or completely and people will actually loot gold from monsters again. People who are currently rich now and got there legitimately will still be rich after by continuing to play the way they have been.

That's my 2 cents... or as they might say in Zimbabwe my 2 hundred trillion dollars.

 

[Phoenix_Mythic]

On Reagents

Reagents are an interesting subject. Here's a question:

BUT FIRST, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. This is not an idea that we are considering implementing.

Suppose there were a magic blessed bag that could hold up to 100 stone of reagents and scrolls, but in order for it to work you would have to feed it gold on an hourly basis -- otherwise it loses its blessing. How much gold would you be willing to feed it, and how did you arrive at that number?

AGAIN, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. My purpose in posing that question is to elicit some responses specifically about the value of reagents, and LRC, and scrolls.

 

[olduofan]

Re: On Reagents

I'm sorry but what about the pure warriors and others who only way to heal is with aids and every time we die they get looted first by mobs and other player? when do we get 100% lower aids or blessed bags it been WAY to long that the devs ignored the melee fighters and im not taking about sammys and high breads those are what screwed us.

How about adding in blessed aids that we have to pay for like Chiv

edit thats anther thing why dont you make ALL the spells cost money like chiv why are some spells free ? and not chiv ?

 

[Lord Essex]

Re: On Reagents

Reagents are an interesting subject. Here's a question:

BUT FIRST, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. This is not an idea that we are considering implementing.

Suppose there were a magic blessed bag that could hold up to 100 stone of reagents and scrolls, but in order for it to work you would have to feed it gold on an hourly basis -- otherwise it loses its blessing. How much gold would you be willing to feed it, and how did you arrive at that number?

AGAIN, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. My purpose in posing that question is to elicit some responses specifically about the value of reagents, and LRC, and scrolls.

I'm not quiet sure the point of a bag w/ regs when we have LRC.. however if it was capped or we were somehow required to use Regs & Scrolls again I would willing to feed it say 2500-5000gp per hour.. I figure a couple blood eleys/fans/drags & ww's would provide that in 5-10 mins.. a small price to pay for 50+ mins of blessed regs.. not having to worry about losing them..

I'm sorry but what about the pure warriors and others who only way to heal is with aids and every time we die they get looted first by mobs and other player? when do we get 100% lower aids or blessed bags it been WAY to long that the devs ignored the melee fighters and im not taking about sammys and high breads those are what screwed us.

How about adding in blessed aids that we have to pay for like Chiv

edit thats anther thing why dont you make ALL the spells cost money like chiv why are some spells free ? and not chiv ?

I do believe it would be fair for the bag to accept regs/aids.. & maybe even bolts/arrows..


However I actually think MORE blessed items is the wrong way to go.. One of the most appealing things in UO specially when it first came out, was the freedom to do almost anything you'd like.. Sure there were penalties but if I saw 5k on the ground that someone accedently dropped I (Me, Myself & I) had the ability to choose do I pick it up and keep it or do I pick it up and give it back.. In the end the amount of blessed items and safe guards that have been created significantly limit the risks players are exposed to in todays UO. As I've stated earlier in this thread.. This is one of the issues that have lead to the economy we have now.. If things wear down, are loss, people are forced to replace them.. ie: the amount of gold leaving the game increases.

 

[Bill Gates OSD]

Re: On Reagents

Reagents are an interesting subject. Here's a question:

BUT FIRST, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. This is not an idea that we are considering implementing.

Suppose there were a magic blessed bag that could hold up to 100 stone of reagents and scrolls, but in order for it to work you would have to feed it gold on an hourly basis -- otherwise it loses its blessing. How much gold would you be willing to feed it, and how did you arrive at that number?

AGAIN, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. My purpose in posing that question is to elicit some responses specifically about the value of reagents, and LRC, and scrolls.

Phoenix I'm totally against that idea. I like not having to madly scramble to get reagents anymore. That was a HUGE pain in the behind that I'd not like to re-live. Having to remember to re-charge a magic bag every hour just adds to the tedium of UO. That being said, how about this instead:

1: You have to charge your spellbook with gold just like you do for Chivalry in order for your LRC suit to work.

2: It doesn't matter which book of the many you might carry you charge, as long as it's in your possession, including equipped, it works.

I would like to reiterate my earlier statement with regard to scrolls. Make them no longer spawn on NPC vendors nor as loot on monsters. I understand that some would have to stay because of the quests to get them and that's fine. Just please, make the players drive the economy!

I have fond memories of standing outside of the Brit mage shop with friends scribing full spellbooks by request. I made a fair profit and my customers got what they needed. I made many friends that way...