Something to chew on while I'm gone

[DrDolittle]

The phrase Risk Vs Reward got thrown around a lot while debating the felucca changes.

Well I have a new phrase to consider; Work Vs Reward.

A lot of very important elements of UO, like skill gain, and BODs for example, are based on "random chance". Oddly enough there are some fairly trivial elements of UO that are non-random; Fame and karma for reputations, for example; You kill the monster, you get the associated fame/karma. Why shouldn’t skill and BODs work the same way? You do the work, you get the gain/BOD.

If you look at systems that people are upset with, the core problem can usually be traced back to the random chance element in that system. People put in a lot of work but did not "get lucky" and get the expected reward so they are unhappy.

Skill gain, for example, has always been a hot potato. Random chance is not used for skill gain in other games. In most, the work you do goes directly towards an increase in skill.

In my opinion, involving random chance in skill gain is a fundamental design flaw in Ultima Online. The results of this flaw are obvious; Skill gain is something that has been open to abuse, exploit and cheesy tactics since day one. In spite of the tremendous amount of time and effort that OSI has put into maintaining the skill gain code and trying to thwart outright cheaters, they are left with a buggy system which many customers are dissatisfied with. Many elements, like the anti-macro code, added to stop cheaters, hurt the honest player. It is difficult to balance gain rate between the casual and hard core player. Gains are still frustrating and unpredictable. The very fact that OSI added a "guaranteed" gain element is an admission that there is a problem; After all, if the gain system were properly designed one would not get "stuck" and have a need for a guaranteed gain. That the effort poured down the skill gain black hole could have been put to better use improving the game is obvious.

So why was something as important as skill gain management left to random chance in the original game design? Probably because it was easier to code that way. By using random chance to simulate skill gain based on the players work, the designers avoided having to track any "skill credit" values towards an eventual skill gain. Further, there were probably performance issues on the early servers. Random chance likely performed better at that time.

With GGS today, the server must track a value (time of last skill gain) for each character skill and access that value at each skill gain check. So the first hurtle, tracking a per/skill value, has been overcome. The next step would be converting skill gain from a random chance to a use based system.

In a use based system, one would accumulate a lower level "skill-credit" each time one used a skill. Once sufficient skill-credits were available, one would get a gain.

The number of skill-credits required to get a gain at a given skill level could be calculated by a simple formula. For example;

Required_Credits = Current_Skill / Skill_Rate + Skill_Base

Skill_Rate and Skill_Base could be set on a per-skill basis to control how fast one could gain in a given skill.

The skill-credit, given when a skill is used, would be based on the ratio of users skill to the task difficulty. The number of skill-credits. This could also be calculated by a formula like;

Skill_Credit = Minimum( Required_Skill / Current_Skill, Skill_Base * .5 )

This would encourage one to perform tasks near ones skill level but not preclude some gain on harder/easier tasks. A smaller percent of the skill-credit would be granted for a failure.

To balance casual and "hard core" players, the Skill_Rate would gradually decrease as more gains were granted during each day. Thus, the rate at which one gains would gradually decrease as the number of gains grew. The Skill_Rate would be reset to it’s standard value at the beginning of each day. This would allow the casual player to get fairly good gains while allowing the hard core player to continue to gain a reasonable amount without totally abusing the system.

If a system like this were implemented, a lot of buggy code could be eliminated, skill gains would be predictable and manageable, there would be no "instant GMs" and no frustrated casual players.

The same concept could be applied to BODs; You complete a BOD you get some "BOD-credits". Once you have sufficient BOD-credits you could redeem the credits for a better LBOD or a reward.

In the champion spawns one could get "champion-points" for killing the spawn. Then, when the champion is defeated, only those with sufficient champion-points would get a scroll. This would solve the problem of "altar sitters".

Many systems, in a game, should have a strong random chance element. A system that involve directly rewarding a players efforts is not one of those. I believe that it is time that role of random chance as a mechanism for rewarding player effort be eliminated.

 

[Maledicta]

Mr. Tact:
Thanks for posting this. Here are a few of my opinions:

How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

What is your objective? To have skill gains mimic real life, or to hold the too-short attention spans of most current players?

8x8 methodologies were adopted because people quickly learned it was the most efficient way to raise skills. But in real life, do you get in a boat and move eight squares to train a skill? Additionally, why would you allow any code in the game that allows programmatic skill gain (ie macros)? Decide what it is you want the game to represent, and adjust accordingly.

How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

In real life, if something comes to you easily, does it really mean as much to you as when you have worked really hard to achieve it? If everyone can GM every skill in a few hours, then hasn't UO become nothing but a medieval version of Sims Online? I believe you're worried about retaining the attention spans of most modern players, but at what point do you sell out the soul of the game?

For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

You know, when I first read this I thought "Great! Now I'll know if I'm wasting my time". But think about it - after getting this information for a little while, people will have the monster levels pretty well figured out. Then, all this information does is point them towards activities focused on skill gain and not playing the game. If your intention is simply to provide a vehicle for people to GM skills, and those skills can be maxed in a few hours, what's the point of the game?

I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

So, a banksitter would gain as many stats as someone out hunting? I think you'll reconsider this idea.

While we're at it, what's the point of the daily limit, anyway? It sure appears like you've made stat gains too easy, or else this daily limit wouldn't be needed.

The Bottom Line: Why is golf so popular? It's really difficult to be very good at it, yet because any schnook can "play at it", hope to get better, and still enjoy all the associated ambience, it's hotter than Texas asphalt in July. Think about it...

 

[Bronwyn_of_Baja]

<blockquote><hr>

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

<hr></blockquote>

After nearly 6 yrs of game play, I do not and never have seen the problem with macroing. So long as it is not using any exploits, or anything to harm the game itself, or interfer with another persons game play. Some people I put right into the *tattle tale* category. They cant stand to see someone else do something they dont like. It makes NO differance what so ever to me if my neighbor macros his skills while I go out and work it. To each thier own I say.

8x8 is wonderful! /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif I use it alot. I am one of those players who hates building chars. If i can hope on a boat and sail for an hour and get some good skill gain, then I can move on to other things. I have a full palatte in game and refuse to use more than 3 or 4 hours at a time working on a skill.

As far as how quickly something GM's..... that ones kinda tuff for me. Every skill seems to take forever for me. Since I dont like to sit and specifically work skills, I get kinda frustrated at the skill gains. I would like to see them a little more predictable. Nothing ticks me off more than deciding to work a skill (above 90) and sit there for 2 hours and get either no gain, or only a measely .1.

<blockquote><hr>

How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

<hr></blockquote>

There really shouldnt be a set time limit I dont think. I do however think some skills are rediciously hard to raise. I think all skills should raise at around the same rate. The most frustrating thing is when you get stuck in a skill for 3 or 4 days.

<blockquote><hr>

For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

<hr></blockquote>

Hmmmmmm......yes and no. I can see where this could get irritating. Esp after you gm a skill. I would get tired of seeing something like (You find this task far to easy) everytime I want to make a skullcap for tailoring for example. Actually, I like the way the crafting skils are set up on the menu. Perhaps for other skills you could create a context menu, similar to the crafting menu. This could give you some very basic info on the task your performing. Then people would have the option to use it or not.

<blockquote><hr>

I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

<hr></blockquote>

Very bad idea! Wht exactly was wrong with see sawing the skills for stat gain? I have made a few new chars since pub 16, and I havent used one of them because the stat gain is pathetic.

 

[darth of napa]

my main concern as many others have stated, is that changing your pvp template shouldnt take an insane amount of time. my main pvp char started out as the standard hally mage back befor uo:r and has gone through so many changes....
here are just a few skills this char has had at gm or above: mage swords med eval healin anat wrestling archery tactics hiding parry scribe poisoning(only got to 90's here) resist....

my point here is that changing a char around constantly is a huge pain

my opinion on this is that pvp skills should be much easier to gain. people who are in this game to pvp dont want to spend 40+ hours training a skill, they want to have there char done and ready to go in a week or 2.

here are some skills that i think shoudl be much easier to gain:

resist- many people think this skill isnt that useful anymore, they coudlnt be more wrong, but in any case it took me 4 years to gm this on my main, and its even harder now then it used to be

fighting skills- i started a fencer post pub 16, i never watn to have to do that again, and gettin up to 120 skill is just stuped, expect to have to spend over 100 hours on this, just think at minimum wage, this is like 500+ dollars worth of time

poisoning - not only is this one extreamly slow, its really expensive

basicly i think that you shoudl not have to spend 40+ hours to gm a skill. i understand that skills shouldnt just be handed out, but some of us like to enjoy our time in UO, and spending 2 months training a char isnt all that fun to me

p.s. have fun on your vacation

 

[Guest]

When I get back from vacation, I plan to start looking into refactoring skill and stat gain. The intent is not to change anything much, but to reorganize the code to ensure that it works the way it is supposed to, and is easier to maintain going forward. I'd like to see some discussion of skill gain issues before then. Some of the questions in my mind right now are things like:

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

So, stuff like that. Please feel free to discuss amongst yourselves . . .

 

[Lord Loge]

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

A: 8x8 is the reason why the gain system is predictable to a certain degree nowadays. If you change this and make it predictable in an other way, it does not really change much, does it?
On the other hand, 8x8 is still the only way to GM skills (that work with 8x8) in a reasonable time; if it would be completely removed skill gain would be even more time-consuming than it is now (and this would reduce fun).

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

A: This should depend upon the skill. But it should be possible faster than nowadays. To GM Taming litteraly consumes months &amp; years (if you don't play uo 6 hours a day or more) and this is out of proportion for a computer game.


- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

A: This would be a good idea to make the system more transparent.

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

A: This maybe would not be so good, as you would only have to hang around at Brit Bank f.e. and gain...

 

[Guest]

[- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?]

Is macro prevention possible at all? I'd guess no matter how hard you try there will always be someone who finds a way around it.
Eliminating of 8x8 should be done. Right now the problem with gaining skill is that you simply have to be at the right spot to gain skill. If you'd know those spots you could run all over the world trying to gain skill and would only get your GGS gain. Remove that portion of the game and just make sure that no matter where you are you have a fair chance to gain in skill. But keep it movement based for those skill that require movement right now.

As for the rest: i don't really care.

 

[Salt FoamBreaker]

Should you eliminate 8x8?
You wouldn't eliminate a PvM Spawn would you?

Then why take away my blue spawn?/php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif

Seriously my suggestion is check the individual skills, there are some that raise harder than others, and leave it at that.

 

[Verund]

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

I think macroing prevention should still be done, perhaps a new sort of protection.


- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

Definetely not. As for example tamers are way more powerfull as GM then warriors, it should take them longer to master the skill. Same for magery, necromancy, chivalry, bardskills...
50-100 hours of real usage should a skill take to get its GM (e.g. 50 for cooking, 60 for swords and 100 for taming). And like now several skills can gain at the same time (e.g. swords, tactics, anatomy, healing).


- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

Now way! Everybody should find that out on himself or as many do ask anyone else.
Bringing that in would be like a monster-window for every monster that tells you what specialmoves, spells, valotypeweapons would be used best against it. Please forget about that idea.


- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

Well yes and no. For many skills don't seem to increase stats as they should - yes - as for everybody can get his stats with using arms lore, what raises stats sefely - yes -.
I'd like to see fully skillbased statgain again, with that skill for INT, that for DEX and another one for STR and so on. So - no -.
Like the last point of yours, this suggestion of you would make all safer, no more thrill in getting stats, nor more figuring something out on yourself.



Another point on skillgain:
Many people face skillgainstops, with no chance on gaining.
For example many skills stop to gain at 25 (e.g. parry, cartography), okay you can buy the skill on ~30. But other skills stop (again) on 75.
In my case Healing stopped gaining at 80.0. After lots of bandages used I borrowed a ring with healing on it from a friend bringing me to 83 and gained again. Now I gain without the ring again.
Perhaps there are other skillgainstops but I only know this three numbers.
Thats a bug for sure (and I don't really know if it's known or solved in one of the upcoming publishs).

 

[Renoa Fisherman]

Please take a look at the Poison Skill.

It costs about 1 mil or more to gm this skill in resources. I'm in the low 80's and I gain .3 to .5 points per keg of greater poison. When I get close to 90 ill be lucky to get a .1 per kag.

Any new player would never be able to GM this skill within a year, unless they purchased gold from someone.

 

[MerlynDavis]

I only play on SP, but please, remove 8x8, pay attention to macroers, bug abusers, etc. I started back when RoT started at 0, and I loved it. I could play the game and gain at a decent rate.

Now I have to bang my head against a brick wall until I hit 70....and even after that, sometimes I have to act "artificially" in order to gain...(for example, stealth at 90+...you can't gain just by stealthing around in leather armor. You have to put on a ringmail tunic or gloves and try stealthing in order to gain)....

 

[Guest]

Let skills gain with time, like what you propose to do with the stats.

I don't see the difference between a player just standing there and one macroing on a boat. Both will take up server ressources and the one standing still will probably be taking up less. Players who chose to play the game normally would still do that.

Certain skills, should be capped at certain levels. Players would be required to perform quests to break the cap.

For example: At 59.9, swords, tactics would be locked on a warrior. The player would then go to the warrior guildmaster who would give him the task of ridding an area of orcs.

At 79.9 the player would be required to kill the undead in Deceit.

At 99.9 the player would be required to solo a dragon.

The quests would have to be difficult enough to only allow players with enough experience to pass the threshold. They would also ensure that players know how to play their characters. They would also require players to acquire good enough equipment to perform the quests at their lower skill level.

You could have quests that cater to PvP'ers also. Something could be tied to (what was that virtue tied to duels? Honor) so that, to brak their 60 cap, a player must defeat 10 other players that have already broken their 60 cap in a fighting skill. Maybe 50 for the 80 cap, and 100 for the 100.

 

[Olim]

<blockquote><hr>

What's the point of playing a game if you can have a powerful character in a matter of less than a week?

<hr></blockquote>

The point is you really can't do much with a character unless it has high(ish) skills.

Crafting : Lower-level crafted items are mostly completely pointless. Would you buy or use armour or weapons made by a sub-GM Tailor or Smith? I doubt it.

PvM : Whether done for money or loot, unless you are a GM+ warrior or Mage, forget about it. Who in their right mind wants to fight Earth Elementals for hours on end for such little reward?

Taming/Barding : Again, mostly only useful for PvM, but completely useless against anything bigger than an Earth Elemental now, unles you have close-to-GM skills.

Doom : Don't bother to go there expecting to kill anything other than Vampire Bats and Patchwork Skeletons with any offensive skills less than GM.

Champion Spawns : You can do the first level, or maybe 2 levels in a couple of the spawns if you have a low level character. Try doing level 3 in any spawn (even Rats) with less-than-GM skills. My 3xElder fencer has trouble stying alive.

PvP : I'm a 4 year vet with a multi-115 skilled scribe mage and I can rarely stay alive through a double-hit from a single axer. God forbid any new player who want's to engage in PvP.

My point after all this is that this game is hugely biased now towards players with high skills. I agree with some others here that for a new player starting out from scratch it is probably still exciting and a challenge for the first few weeks or even a couple of months. However, if you start with nothing now (post AoS) it's going to take you a VERY long time to get to a level where you will be able to compete on a level playing field with anyone who was around pre-AoS.

As a few others have mentioned already in this thread, I really don't see any problem with any kind of macroing for monotonous skills. It really doesn't hurt anyone else in the game at all.

Take Poisoning as an extreme example. Use poisoning skill, target potion, target dagger/apple, wait a few seconds, repeat ad nauseum. *yawn*. I would like to give 2 of my characters GM poisoning, but it's so tedious I've given up at around 70 skill on the first one. I haven't even go to the hard bit yet.

Skill gain though 'normal' gameplay? That's all well and good, but it's very very difficult to do anything in the game these days which is worthwhile and will also gain you some skill. Take a Peace Bard as an example. You start with 30 (or maybe 50) skill with a new character. What can you peace successfully, other than using area peace? Probably just overland animal spawn at a guess. If you tried anything more dangerous you would surely be spending more time dieing or running away than anything useful. I couldn't imagine training this without the benefit of a boat and 8x8.

This a game, not work. If it's too much work to raise skills, the enjoyment is gone. Personally, I first played UO just after beta. I think I closed my original account whithin the first month because it was taking hours and hours to do anything with no reward and it just wasn't fun to play.

If you don't start to see decent results from the time you spent in-game within a few weeks, what is there to keep you playing?

 

[Olim]

<blockquote><hr>

Players would be required to perform quests to break the cap.

<hr></blockquote>

I think the major appeal of UO (to me at least) is the fact that you aren't tied into doing certain things at certain times in order to progress. If you wanted this kind of linear gameplay, play an offline game or something like Diablo II.

If you inforce a quest-based gain system, you completely negate the "freedom-factor". For example, I am currently training a new warrior. At around 65 skill I know I can go fight quite a range of monsters in order to get skill gains. Orcs, Lizard Men, Ogres, Solen, Players etc etc. If when I get to 69.9 skill I have to go kill a certain number of xxx animal, I lose my freedom to do what I like and have to follow the structure of the game

If I wanted to at my 69.9 skill, I could go fight a Dragon to gain. Yes, it would probably end up in me dieing, but at least I have that choice.

 

[Guest]

<font color=FF3030>- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?</font color=FF3030>


This question surprised me. All this time I had assumed that if you could do something about the rampant macroing and that silly 8x8 gain system you already would have.
Skills should not be gained by macroing over and over, especially on a boat with "one forward" pretyped. This only has opened the door for unattended macroing (because it is so boring) and illegal programs. If there is a way to make skill gain more, lets say "beneficial" if one does not macro it, why hasn't this already been implemented?

Skill gain shouldn't necessarily be "predictable" but if one is performing a task that is under their skill cap with skill points available one should expect a gain. Sounds contradictory I know. But if there is a way to take out the repitition then I am all for it.
Why on earth would a tailor make 500 oil cloths? After the first 50 I would say he/she is a professional at it.
Same with carpentry for instance. How many staves can one man make? After the first 30 or so he's going to get tired of it, the quality of his work is going to get worse not better.
And what of the Taming skill? How many times does a tamer walk around the forest and tame and release animals before he is "Grandmaster" or "Legendary". Skill gain for taming should come from somewhere else. Right now you have us "promising to take good care of you" only to release and sometimes kill after the "seems to accept you as master" message. How does a tamer use his/her skill? Commanding pets? Pet training? I don't know. But either would be better than the false promises my tamers make to the forest animals.
Skills such as magery and necromancy. Most of us here will agree the easiest way to get to GM+ with these skills is to hop on a boat and one forward for an afternoon. I have to doubt that anyone would say it is fun, but neither is that annoying fizzle sound when you are attempting to cast a spell.
Skills such as tactics and weapon skills make more sense. If one were to practice with his sword often he will become good at weilding it. Skill gain should make sense. Standing on a boat 8x8ing does not make sense.
Removing 8x8 may cause a panic though. There are some people who "love" it and couldn't live without it. Call them skill farmers. The only enjoyment they get out of UO is having the uberest characters the fastest. I hope you realize they are in the minority and go ahead with some changes, including the removal of 8x8 and macroing if at all possible.


<font color=FF3030>- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?</font color=FF3030>

First off let me say that all skills should be the same. With the advent of AOS there are no real "uber" skills anymore. All skills have their pluses and minuses. To make one person working tailoring take longer or shorter than some other person working poisoning is unreasonable and unfair. As long as you are working your skill you should gain at the same rate as someone else working a different skill.
As for how long it should take to GM I am undecided. On one hand I would say that 30 days sounds good. Reason I say 30 days is simple. New players get a 30 day free trial. It's more of a marketing move than anything else. Joe Newplayer would enjoy, I think, seeing his skill at grandmaster level and may choose to stay with Ultima Online and grandmaster even more skills. What the average player actually puts into the game in an average 30 days is information I don't have, but I am sure you do. Take that number and work around it. This makes powergamers get their skill the way they want it, but casual gamers can still count on being able to GM in a reasonable amount of time.
Take the GGS timers and throw them in the trash, they are totally unfair to the players who acutally play more than once every 73 hours (or whatever).



<font color=FF3030>- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?</font color=FF3030>


If it can be done without getting over simplified then yes. Occassionally tamers get the message "that wasn't even challenging" although it is entirely too fast and can be easily missed. To occassionally get the message that something wasn't challenging wouldn't have an adverse effect on game play and may help out some of the newer, or inexperianced players who may need some help learning what to do to get good gains. As others have said, spamming the screen with some sort of annoying message over and over will only help to further alienate players from dev members. If I am at the Nera spawn with my macer I don't want to hear over and over how easy the first level was for me. Yet sometimes I will be on one of my tamers and wonder "Hmmm I wonder if I could gain off that pretame..."



<font color=FF3030>- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?</font color=FF3030>


I personally don't see it as a bad idea. Then again I never understood why we didn't just get all our stat points to start with. The present stat gain system is really silly. Even while role playing you dont emote *I just gotith stronger by wrestling this bear with my mighty bare arms* No one does that...
Folks just do their best to get their stats up to workable levels as soon as possible.
Stats should be capped out in the character creation screen.
If someone wants to change their stats around after the fact, then yes I would say decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain is a good idea. There is nothing overpowering about something that everyone can do.

Thanks for listening to my opinion.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

<hr></blockquote>

People will almost always find a way around it. Remove 'anti-macro' code and use what we had before UO:Renaissance for skillgain. The anti-macro code made certain skills much harder and nearly impossible without setting up massive powergaming sessions, like Snooping for example, which was percieved as an easy skill before anti-macro. Afterwards we had to setup 2 or more characters with about 5 sets of 100 bags with macros tied to snoop them to gain realistically past 80 skill.

As you can see it doesn't matter if one has to move or one can stand in place doing the same thing all day. People will find a way to macro it.

<blockquote><hr>

How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

<hr></blockquote>

I would say depends on skill and how powerful it is and the usefulness of it. Again, the speeds we had before UO:Ren would be fine. You could macro all day but it would take you at least a couple days to GM most skills. Some took much longer like Resist, which was very useful at the time compared to now -- Magery was also a very hard skill. Some took shorter, like Snooping which every serious thief GMed ASAP.

I think maybe 20 hours total working many skills would be fine. It's not much different than now for most skills, and infact I can gm some skills faster than that now. I guess you should make some exceptions for some of the more valued skills like Taming &amp; Provocation that you don't really want everyone being able to easily Grandmaster.

<blockquote><hr>

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

<hr></blockquote>

... Yeah, but give an option in the client for it. Onscreen spam could be bad. Think melee skills right now being difficulty based.

<blockquote><hr>

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

<hr></blockquote>

I think.... good idea, now that we have stat locks. It should hush the people who don't know how to work the stat gains right now (which, btw, is better than Pub16. I hated gaining stats with P16).

Oh. If you change only ONE thing... Fix the gaining of the Resisting Spells skill. Right now it's not going very well when one tries to gain it, but I haven't had many problems with any other skills except Stealing above 100, but that's just slow. It DOES gain unlike Resist past 80!

 

[WarGrind]

Preventing macroing is good, preventing players from training their skills quickly is bad. Reasonably to GM a skill it should take an afternoon from the not real worthwhile skills, to a week or two (at maybe 4 hours a day) for the tough ones. As it is, Magic Resist is unreasonably tough, you can't powergame it without a ton of casters, and they don't cast the 'right' spells often enough anymore.
For difficulty based skills, a good start was having the tool menus explain the success chance, perhaps it could be expanded to other things. It's very tough to understand what to fight when for combat skills anymore, since you can't just gain from anything now.
Stat gain is annoying as it is now, I don't know if people would understand if it was decoupled from skillgain, I think the main thing would to be to fix the skills it doesn't work right for, I'm pretty sure meditation and magery and focus don't raise stats, for instance.

 

[Woodstock=$=]

Leave 8x8 as it is...

I think a sort of PH should be added in but maybe not as powerful as the old one... Im not sure what the ratio of gain increase for the old one was, perhaps the new could be half of the old? GGS is kind of stupid IMO, its mostly just abused in the form of using it once a day on high level skills that are hard to train. Powerhour acctually gave an incentive to train your chars hard, for an hour.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

All skills should not be the same to GM. Taming should be much harder to GM than melee skills and so forth

<hr></blockquote>

Maybe ya haven't been out much lately but Taming is getting to be low man on the totem pole as far as power is concerned. I don't know why people still think taming is the uber powerful skill it used to be.

I don't want to get in an arguement here, but anyone saying that Taming is still top notch on the totem pole needs to step out of the box for a bit and see what is really going on.

 

[gandolfofaol]

First off since stats no longer effect skills the gain in stats should no longer be linked to skills. If you do keep it linked check that all skills have that link. Some skills do not cause stats to gain. Also not sure if you are aware of this but the stat gain is not limited to one every 15 minutes. PM me if you need details.

 

[Socko]

none of that matters when you have a playerbase debating to cancel their accounts. You should be more focused on pvp/thievery changes item system.

 

[DocMartin]

I hope you enjoy your vacation, and I'm sure this post will have too many threads to read by the time you get back =p
It's already too many for me to read in one sitting.

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?
I don't feel that macro prevention is such a huge issue unless people are using the macros unattendedly. 8x8, while being a cheesy way to gain a skill, works quite well. Even with more predictable skill gains, the powergamers would still use 8x8 or similar methods if they could provide faster gains.

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?
Well, with skill gains as they are now, reasonable would be a few hours. With advanced char templates and jewelry, you get almost gm from creation.
Ideally, I would like to see it take 2-3 months of decent playing to achieve GM status. It would make it more of an accomplishment to polish your characters, and it would provide plenty of opportunities to support the lower-skill newbies who need your help. Plus, during that time of building their character, new players would actually experience more of the game and take the time to decide whether they want to be a part of it. (As an incentive to OSI, 3 months of paid game-time. As an incentive to me, I might actually get the free month from them joining and staying)

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?
I think they are fine as is, most of them seem to have some kind of built-in thing to tell you if you can do it: Lockpicking, Taming, Smith, Mining, Tailor...

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?
Why not just give everyone 225 off the bat when they create a character then?


I read the ideas about having a quest every so often, but that just changes the skill system into leveling (although with AoS, why not? everything else is different).

The most important thing about skill gain is to make it fair and consistent for the casual gamers and the powergamer. Powerhour was nice because it allowed people who may only have an hour a day to play the opportunity to somewhat keep up with everyone else. But gains out of powerhour were slower, meaning the powergamers didn't come out that far ahead. Now with GGS, you could get your 0.1 every day, or you can powergame it. Gains come pretty quick for most skills at any time, but if you can only play for an hour or 2 each day you will be much farther behind the curve.

Not that I think skill-gaining should be a tedious chore of a process, don't get me wrong. And with all the item-based combat going on, it's pretty much a moot point. Anyone can just twink up and become the new uo champion.

 

[captainnismo]

IMHO, 8x8 is a rediculous 'exploit' and should be eliminated.
Now, as for macro'ing... it's hard because there are so many programs and good script writers that it seems impossible to make any skill totally anti-macro. Nonetheless, I would recommend trying to make the skills 'unattended macro unfriendly', if you know what I mean. Maybe have some sort of max gain per period of time or something.
Personally I feel that if people actually had to train up their characters it would contribute to a stronger community 'spirit'.

Also, I don't think it is necessary for all skills to take the same time to GM. Some skills SHOULD be harder to gain in. For example, I personally feel animal taming should be harder to raise than macing. (as is currently the case)

Lastly, the blatant macro'ing the last couple years has led to a flood of characters, especially mules. No skill should be GM'able through normal play in a day, that's rediculous. Personally, I think skills should take a little bit longer to GM. Like say, a month to GM swords or something, assuming an hour of game play a day.

 

[Jithero]

Training skills has never been fun for me. I would rather not even think about them and just go ahead and play the acutal game. Unfortunately, there are many game systems that are dependant on having certain high-level skills. I know that some people enjoy treating the skill gain system as if it were some sort of puzzle to be figured out, to be manipulated in an effort to get the most skill the fastest. But I just find it annoying. I would like to see a system where, once you log in and successfully use a skill, that skill will raise at set intervals (say, .1 every 15 minutes) as long as you continue to move around the game world. This would last until you log out or are disconnected. I know this would make it real easy for people to make a macro that keeps their character moving around. So what? I don't really care how someone else got their skills. Manipulation of the system has been going on since the first day the servers came up in 1997. This is supposed to be a GAME, but when it comes to skills it feels more like a chore. I don't think it should take more than about 40-60 hours of game play to get to gm in any skill. And that doesn't mean 40-60 hours of just using that skill over and over. This would go a long ways towards allowing casual gamers to compete.

I like the automatic stat gain idea. I'd eliminate the daily limit if anything.

 

[Guest]

...

<font color=blue>- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?</font color=blue>

And replace it with what? Something else that will simply be automated or so random to be useless. I've always liked the idea for cumulative skill/stat loss on catching Unattended Macroers myself... 5% loss per # of times caught.

<font color=blue> - How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?</font color=blue>

Hard one to answer. No, they shouldn't be the same, plus you have to look at different curves for resource-using skills vs non-resource skills.

<font color=blue> - For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?</font color=blue>

Other than maybe highlighting the success chance (red for too difficult, green for best gain, blue for too easy for example), I see no need for this.

<font color=blue>- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?</font color=blue>

I disagree with this... keep it tied into skill gain, just remove the daily cap and keep the gains limited to one per hour.

 

[Guest]

I've said it a hundred times. Anti-macro code is the worst thing ever to happen to UO.

Not being able to gain skills in houses over 70 skill killed many fight club communities that used to exist pre-UOR--people used to have fun practicing together in their houses.

Movement-based anti-macro code made it so we could no longer gain magery just killing stuff in dungeons.

Target-based anti-macro code made it so we could no longer gain skills like poisoning simply by using them in the field.

Needing 100 or 200 different items to work a skill is stupid.

Needing to move 8 steps to have a chance to gain a skill is stupid.

Using 6000 bandages healing a person without gaining once at 94 heal just because you're both stationary is stupid. (When i was helping people gain resist i used 6000 bandages and never gained once--how stupid is that).

Power gamers are always going to defeat anti-macro code with sophisticated illegal programs. Forget about what people do illegally and bring back natural gains to us.

Give us back our communities and team work.

Give us back sparring with each other for gains (give us some practice weapons we can use to train melee skills with friends).

 

[Peaches]

Yes, I too, miss the sparring with guildmates to work on skills. It was fun and we created many a friendships that way. I know for a fact, that if you bring back inner guild sparring, it will once again, allow PTI to become highly active once again.

 

[Reachwind]

Skill gain... Ah the wonder and awe of trying to figure out how to gain a skill.

I like the idea of making every skill playable (free skill gain under the current system) or buyable. Stats on the other hand should be done at character creation with changes being difficult and slow (to encourage character deletion and the buying of new skills).

 

[Johnny Canuck]

For me perosnally, I have always tried to gain through normal game play.

(which is easier to do at higher levels than at lower levels, because you don't really have to think about gains.. as you are busy with other tasks; such as fighting monsters and earning gold)

When I create a new character I tend to rush development as quickly as I can to "get back into the game" Not to the point of being GM, but enough to where I can relax, slow down, and gain through normal gameplay.

I find some skills painfully tedious, (repetitive and mundane) but i'm not sure there is anyway around that. The pay off in the end makes the process worth it.
(though it's killer on the wrists) Some skills need to take longer to GM than others (especially if the reward for doing so is greater- tamers, Bards)

8x8 - If you can find an alternative, then I do not think we would need this method any longer. This is a method used to get a jump on character development. It's easy (though monotonous) and the results are immediate and consistant.

Stat gains - In the world of Britannia, warriors gained strength through sparring and combat; mages gained intelligence by practicing and studying their craft. Which related to the real world. To me this is what gave UO it's charm.

The game has deviated from that path. Which may be fine and all, because I think players are only considering the end result. Maxing them out, and will take it in any form that it comes.

 

[uohamster]

<blockquote><hr>

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?


<hr></blockquote>
OSI/EA needs to put its foot down and begin perma-banning afk macrorers. There are many different types of afk macroers and scripters. They need to be dealt with.
<blockquote><hr>


- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?


<hr></blockquote>
The more powerful a skill is the longer it should take to Grandmaster. In my humble opinion, the most difficult skills should take approximately two years (if the player plays 1 hour per day) to Grandmaster. This may seem like a very long time, but the harder a goal is to attain (even if this is just a goal in a computer game) the more it will be cherished when the goal is reached. Some of my most wonderful 'UO moments' are when I gm a skill that was difficult to Gm.
((And skills above gm should be even HARDER to raise))
<blockquote><hr>


- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?


<hr></blockquote>
If a task is way too easy or too hard it would be nice to get the occasional message to help nudge us in the correct direction as to what to do.
<blockquote><hr>


- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?


<hr></blockquote>
Even though I LOVE slow skill gain, I HATE slow stat gain. I would like to see the ability for us to easily sculpt our stats. I'm not picky how you do it, I would just like to see us to be able to redo our stats in one hour, not one week.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Goldenblack]

Dear Mr. Tact:

[I.] Should 8X8 be encouraged by the UO system?

IMO, NO. The UO system should encourage skill gain either (1) through casual play, for casual or new players, or (2) alternately through ATTENDED insane repititiveness, for those who have the stamina to stand around and do such. Casual play should reward players enough that they aren't FORCED to do #2 if they choose not to (thus, I heartily approve of the GGS system), and attended-insane-repitive-task-skill-gain should gain even more than casual play. I don't think that those who have the stamina to stand still and do repetitive tasks with no variety should be penalized--if they choose to bore themselves in that fashion, they should see rewards without having to artificially move around in patterns while they do it, or whatever.
I -do- think that UNATTENDED macroing should still be prevented.

[II] Should skill gain be the same for all skills?

I think skill gain should be scaled according to likely maximum occurence of skill-use. For instance, since a player has to heal often, healing should gain slower than, say, detect hidden, because detect hidden should normally only be used under special, rarer circumstances.

[III] Should difficulty-based skills warn you if its too easy?

Difficulty-based skills should give you a message indicating that you have no chance of gaining if you don't start trying harder stuff.

[IV] Should stats gain automatically, independent of skills?

I think gaining in stats rapidly due to some artificial clock is an extremely bad idea. I think gaining a stat should be an ACCOMPLISHMENT like any other gain, that is based upon productive actions that you take in the game. You should get a small thrill every time you gain a stat, and feel like you EARNED it, not that you were given it by a mickey-mouse stat-gain system. Remember that what makes UO special is -not- its mickey-mouseness.

-Goldenblack

 

[Guest]

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

Too little too late there.

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

I think a reasonable time should be about 2-3 months through normal gameplay.

No, some skills should require more time to study. Which ones are up to yourself but the complex skills like Magery, Necromancy, Blacksmithing and other user/resource intensive skills should take more time to GM.

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

No, this would take the fun and exploration out of the skill. You learn a skill by trial and error &amp; that's a good thing. Having a 'one gump tells all' would just make training predicatble and boring.

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

I get a stat point for just standing around? That would just turn the game another notch on the dummy scale. Let people work for their stat pont by training or something. I know their are 7x GM with no skill points left to change their stats but by then those people should know what they want anyway.

 

[Adrosi939]

"I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea? "


Yes and No. I apologize for being indecisive. I say no, because if you keep it at a 10 stat per day cap, wont that just promote and encourage more unattended macroing ? Also, wont it inhibit someone's, who is new to the game, learning and interaction with the world of Ultima ?

I say yes, because if it were structured so that a person were to only get lets say 3-5 stat gains a day....this is would still keep them tied to a develpomental role with their character....and if they ever wanted to macro their stats...well it atleast wouldn't be macroable for an excessive amount of time.



Its a good topic....though

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Because not everyone likes to do quests.... I hate them. They are boring to me..

<hr></blockquote>
More boring than making 15,000 heating stands or oil cloths? More boring than slow forward / stop / slow forward / stop / slow forward / stop ?

 

[Alec Leonhart]

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? It depends on what your talking about really if you mean unattended macroing I think OSI is doing all that can on that..if you talking about illegal macroing programs I think you should care alot about that..but then again I dont know much about marcoing I just play the game.


Should I eliminate 8x8? Yes if you can find someting to take its place.


If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it? I think yes but then again thats just me..

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? It think a months time or the over time of 60+ plus hours.

Should all skills be the same? Yes I agree all skills should take about the same time to gm if possible.

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? How to work the skills liek what to fight and when to gain in skill.

If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?
Not for sure what you mean by this

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea? Not for sure what you mean by this either if you mean that someone automatically gains a stat point every 15 mintutes no matter what there doing even just standing there I dont know if thats a good idea. I think the way things are now are okay but it gets kind of tiring at times. But having a stat gain gained a different way could be okay if I knew what you had in mind. Right now I see no problems in the way it is other then I wish it was more then 10 points per day.


















































































































So, stuff like that. Please feel free to discuss amongst yourselves . . .

 

[GomerOfDoom]

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

a) Macroing prevention. Do what you can, when you can. There are a few very game imbalancing issues (carto/gold, etc), but for the most part, I don't think macroing is THAT big a deal. Make it harder to macro unattended, but don't waste your time trying to completely eliminate it.

Bottom line: make it harder to macro, but don't waste your time on it.

b)8x8. Never 8x8ed... don't own a boat and don't want one. I think its sort of a ridiculous system that has nothing to do with how the game "should" be played (sort of speaking from a roleplaying standpoint here), but I don't think 8x8 should be eliminated entirely. Just nerf it. It's insane that someone can GM a skill using 8x8 in two hours (anat, etc)... make it so you can use 8x8, but make it take a few days (see below) to GM this way. Also, I really liked the idea of making the seas more dangerous for 8x8ers. Introduce storms that sink boats and cause item loss, etc...

Bottom line: nerf 8x8, but don't eliminate it.

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

a)Time for GM. Well.. if you have an advanced player who wants to gain quickly so they can get a new char back to where their old char might have been, they could use 8x8 to GM a skill in a few days (3-4 days at 3-4ish hours per day?). Through natural gameplay, I think that GMing a single skill should take between 1 and 2 weeks. This seems like a reasonable amount of time for those of us who like to gain through "natural play" (I'm talking 1-2 weeks playing for 2-4ish hours per day). I think these numbers are a pretty good compromise between those who want easier gain and those who want harder.

Bottom line: 8x8 should take a couple days, "natural" gain should take a couple weeks.

b)Skill similarity. No, I don't think skills should be the same. I agree with the group that thinks "standard" combat gains should be easier than "nonstandard" skill gains. It sort of makes sense, right?... realistically, one could train with a sword and shield much more consistently than someone could play music to make two things attack one another. Resource intensive skills seem right on the mark.

Bottom line: no, not all the skills should be the same difficulty to raise.

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

a) Information. Someone else said this (maybe many people said it). Contextual messages (possible to turn off through the options menu) that say things such as: "you easily create an exceptional dagger," or "you just barely manage to fashion a set of plate gloves."

Bottom line: make it possible for players to receive this sort of info in a contextual manner.

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

a) Stat gain. Decoupling is a terrible idea. Stats should be skill dependent to raise and should not be limited per day. They should raise smoothly with skill gain. This includes gain through a *nerfed* 8x8 system.

Bottom line: DO NOT decouple stat gain.

Thanks for your time.

PS (added later by me) Just wanted to say that the skill system as it is now is really pretty good. Improvement can always be made, but right now, things aren't that bad.

-GomerOfDoom

 

[Donal Mor]

How about fixing skill gains on Siege before jumping ahead to a new agenda.

Donal Mor

 

[Lady Malynn]

I like the idea of ROT, then forget about policing macroing. I think the GM level should take at least 6 months.

The characters I care about are those I worked hard on GM'ing. I have to admit, I have GM'd a couple of skills by 8x8. But, there is no sense of acheivement in doing that.

Actually, with the new armor and weapon system, characters don't have to have super high skill levels to be successful. So, we can slow gains down and encourage enjoying the journey again.

 

[leeb1959]

i've always thought that methods like 8x8 a bit silly. gains should occur 'naturally' through use of skills.

getting to GM should take a month or two, playing a couple of hours a day, for any skill. any longer, and it becomes tedious, especially if it's the second or third time around. i like the way that gains are weighted toward the low end of the skill level, but one gain a day is far too few at the high end. perhaps scaling back on the scarcity of high-end gains would be a way to add enthusiasm for the player and shorten the time required to reach GM.

speaking for myself, i can judge which tasks represent a challenge and which do not. i don't want an annoying message to pop up every time my GM scribe makes a recall scroll.

stat gain, like skill gain, should occur naturally through use of skill, but the two don't have to be tied together. adding a seperate check for stat gain to each use of a skill should not be difficult. stat gain should also be unlimited, but weighted toward the lower end of the stat level, much like skill gain. also, there should be no daily limit, but perhaps an hourly limit, on both stats and skills, because some people play incessantly and others play for shorter periods. limiting gains daily seems unfair to those who play for hours on end. a character should be able to reach 100 on a give stat about the same time he reaches 70 in an associated skill. as multiple skills affect each stat, this should occur naturally in most characters if the chance to gain skill and the chance to gain stat were even. for instance, an archer/bowyer might be approaching 70 archery and 30 bowcraft when he reaches 100 dex. there would be no need for him to learn and then unlearn fishing or cooking to build dex. now, here's the rub: this might encourage the old see-saw method of stat gain. my answer for that? include a fair chance of stat loss for losing skill. this would conflict with stat locks, but if losing every 0.1 of stealing might cost a character 1 point of dex, he won't be doing any see-sawing. of course, even a GM bowyer might gain dex when he uses the skill, so lost stats would be relatively easy to recover. perhaps a stat locked at 100 or above could be protected from loss. the idea is to make stat gain 'natural' without inviting the return of the see-saw method, and i believe this would do it.

thanks for the opportunity to express my views. i appreciate the work you and the whole team are doing to keep the game interesting.

 

[Guest]

At 69.9 skill you could go fight a dragon, but you wouldn't gain any skill from it. With Pub 16, fighting creatures that are too strong for your skill level won't give you any skill gains.

It's really a chore now for new players to find what will alllow them to gain.

I'm not talking about killing 1000's of creatures à la BOD. I'm talking about killing a few creature a bit harder than your skill level. Killing a camp of orcs at 60 swords can be a bit of a challenge.

There could be various quests, if you don't like the one that was give to you, you find another NPC.

Perhaps there could be different levels of difficulty in the quests, and if you complete a more difficult one, your rate of skill gain over time is increased. Do away with the caps and you can use the quests at any time to speed your skill gain along.

 

[Olim]

<blockquote><hr>

At 69.9 skill you could go fight a dragon, but you wouldn't gain any skill from it.

<hr></blockquote>

That's not true. I specifically used that example because I trained my own new swordsman on a friend's pet dragon only yesterday. From memory, the dragon had something around 81 wrestling, so from my 70 skill start I was gaining very well indeed. I have found training on critters ~5-10 points above my skill level has been best for me. I moved on to ant lions from about 80/81 as they always spawn with 90 wrestling.

My character is a Peace Dexer, so he can keep virtually any animal in the game peaced while he trains with his 150 (modified with items) dex. Fortunately for me I am a long-term vet and know how to 'work the system' for maximum gains. This only comes after many many hours of reading these boards for information....

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

<hr></blockquote>

The way I see it, the more complicated you make macroing prevention, the more people who will download illegal third party programs to circumvent them. I think tying skill gains to the resource grid, which created the 8x8 method, has led to more people getting the scriptable macro programs who would have just been using UOA and a key-repeater or an in-game macro with a pocketknife balanced on the key. Now they have the program, and they apply it to other situations, such as boat mining, the former smelting bug, camping Doom rares unattended and so forth. Since tying gains to the resource grid was meant to decrease unattended macroing, and it hasn't really done so, why not remove it? (Well, there's Salt Foambreaker's need for prey, but that's about it /php-bin/shared/images/icons/biggrin.gif)

<blockquote><hr>

How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

<hr></blockquote>

I think it should depend on the skill. There are some skills that just aren't all that useful or desireable. GMing those should take less time. Cooking, Camping, Item ID, and Forensics all kind of fall into that category. There are other skills, such as Blacksmithy, that should continue to take more time and resources to GM, in order that there be some reason for each player to not have their own Smith.

I feel that most combat-type skills have a fairly good gain path as it is. It would be nice if certain portions of the curve were fleshed out with more targets that give gains. I don't know Magery that well, but with weapon skills for example, there's a pretty boring patch from about 60-80 skill where you find yourself fighting the same critters day in and day out to get gains.

<blockquote><hr>

For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

<hr></blockquote>

This is a bit tricky to code in for all skills, but a cool way to do that would be; If a player has room to gain in a certain skill, and the skill is marked up, and there have been a certain number of uses of that skill that are below the threshold of skill gain, a lil system message will say something like, "This is not challenging for a person with your level of {skill name here}." A preference option to turn these messages off is probably a good idea.

<blockquote><hr>

I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

<hr></blockquote>

In a way it's a good idea, since it lets people who have their skills how they want them change their stats. It seems like it should be tied to activity in some way though.


The one thing I've always been concerned with is the "piles of spyglassses" problem with crafting skills. Over the years, we have progressed to the point where basically all non-GM crafted equipment is crap. Even if people can use some of it, such as miner/tinkers making their own shovels, that kind of thing won't get anyone all the way to GM. Tailoring and Smithing have it easy with recutting cloth and smelting metal, but it just seems such a waste. I think one possibility would be to use the BOD system, where filling orders gives an extra skill bump aside from making the components. Maybe a normal 10 SBOD gives a certain % chance of gaining 00.1 and filling and exceptional 20 LBOD gives a guaranteed 05.0 or 10.0 gain, something along those lines. Of course, that also encourages the completion of BOD systems for other crafts /php-bin/shared/images/icons/biggrin.gif

 

[Drake_Brimstone]

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

Depends on the skill IMO. GMing Hiding overnight by macroing it shouldn't be a big deal, it's not going to make the game unfair to others. Macroing Mining on the other hand IS unfair to others as it produces a resource and a source of income where the player doesn't realy have to do anything. I never purposefully use 8x8 myself and think it could be gotten rid if any time without harm if skill gain were more predictable and reasonably fast.


- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

IMO different skills should require different ammounts of time/effort to GM. I also don't think skill gain should depend on RL time, or even entirely played time. I think skill gain should depend on overall effort. Perhaps altering the system for certain skills (like most craft skills) to where you gain skill based on how long you pratice the skill and how much resources you put into it. Complementry skills should allow faster skill gain. (For example High mining should allow faster skill gain for Blacksmithing, Lumberjacking would increase skill gain for Carpentry and Bowcraft/Fletching.)


- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

Yes, PLEASE tell us when what we are making isn't hard enough for us to gain skill. However, I know this could get annoying when making something exceptionaly easy that we actualy need to make for some reason (BOD?) so allow us to turn off the message if we want.


- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

I like this idea, though I'm unsure about the 15 minutes and daily limmits. For one thing I havn't gained more then 1 stat point in a single day in a VERY long time.


Drake Brimstone - IA - LS

 

[Marquino]

This is my two bits worth. I have come back to play UO and it has changed drastically. I played this game for 2 years right at the beginning and into T2A. During that time I managed to GM two of my characters in one skill each. All this was accomplished through playing the game as it was meant to be, no macroing or whatever 8X8 is, just killing stuff and crafting. The reason why I left is the reason I came back, housing. Based on the information I read on AOS, there would be a major influx of housing space, etc, etc. Well to my dismay, it is basically the same as it was, no space and also the fact that one can GM characters relatively quickly, money is easy to come by thus making it easier to GM more characters and so on. I myself, find it very boring and tedious to sit there and craft the same thing over and over again just to gain skill, it was my second reason for leaving UO as well (spent more time filling vendors and orders, then doing something fun). I do like the new stuff added to the game (resists, magic enhancements, characters) and hopefully I will be able to get a decent house at some point. Anyway on to the questions Mr. Tact has laid upon us. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif


- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?
As many other people have mentioned in this thread, it doesn't really matter what you do, there will always be a way to do this, legally or not. Since I do not know what 8X8 is (maybe someone will enlighten me), I cannot comment on that. I think skill gain should be as it was in the beginning, slow, for some skills, anyway.

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?
It should really depend on play time as well as what you are doing to gain in that skill. All of them should be the same yes.

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?
None and no. Part of the fun, and mind you this is a role playing game, in real life a little voice would not be telling you that you can't tame that deer.

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea? Yes, I agree with all that agree, it is a bad idea, again takes the suspense out of not knowing. Predictability precedes boredom.

Marq

 

[SirLynxx]

i am Telling you "Back in the Day" you could Gm almost anything in a week or 2 if you tried and yes i am a 6 year vet. Getting Gm in a skill wasnt the trick, it was keeping it! If you Gmed Swords (always a 1-2 day trick from day one) then went to get the last 10-50 points in Tact you would loose Gm in Swords.

Here is my challenge to any 5 to Almost 6 year vets out there .. really think back .. back to befor anyone had towers and all ... was it really that hard to GM something? NO i say it was just next to impossible to keep it more then a day or so if you want to bank your gold!

 

[douglatz]

On Macroing prevention I don't particularly care one way or the other about macros - but I feel pretty strongly about unattended macroing. What I think would be cool would be after you have been working on a skill for a while - gained a certain number of potential skill gains within a defined period - something happens.

A good example of this type of thing would be fishers - they always have to worry about a serpent coming up. Adding things like this for the other skills would be cool too - for example, an alchemist has been grinding away for an hour and has either gained .5 skill or would have gained if his skill cap were higher/skill unlocked/etc... then a potential mishap occurs - something like he has overdosed on the nightshade and needs to take a cure potion to reset it, if he doesn't he becomes poisoned. Or he has knocked a couple of potions together and has a 5 count to run away before the explosion/poison gas cloud/etc... For a Tailor, they cut themselves and are taking bleeding damage. A mage miscasts and recalls someplace random. Any number of things that wouldn't really matter if the player was there, but could be potentially hazardous to a non-participating macroer. Perhaps skill loss instead of gain? Just an idea.

On GMing I think you have a good start in that the skills are already pretty much broken into levels (neophyte, novice, apprentice, journeyman, expert, adept, master, grandmaster, elder, legendary). I think that advancement should be very quick through to the apprentice level, fairly quick through journeyman, become difficult at expert and adept, slow at master and glacial at grandmaster and above. To be honest - I think you should reconsider about bringing back the powerhour, with advancement above the GM level only possible during powerhour.

On information Yes - definitely there should be more information available in-game. It's silly that i have to come to stratics to find out what I need to be attacking in order to progress in a skill. Some of us just don't figure these things out on the Test Shard.

But you have an answer - all the books that get passed out as treasure. Fill 'em up with tidbits and in-game stories. I know that players are writing them up (as am I). For critical information, put it in the libraries - give players a reason be be in reading the books! Another avenue would be to put mages, fighters and the like in the guildhalls and bars and give them a context menu - the fighter will look at you (maybe spar with you for a minute) and then tell you one or two creatures that you should go fight. (Or the mage will have you cast a few spells, then tell you what circle you should be working in to improve). There are lots of ways that you can work it into the 'storyline' of the world, without just giving the information away (or keeping it 'secret').

Decoupling Stat Gain from Skill Gain - I think this would be a mistake. As players we have to make choices on the skills we use in order to gain in stats - heck, I have an archer who is working with fencing weapons right now, just to get Dex up! /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

Douglas
(Talisman/Sonoma)

 

[Xanthio]

<blockquote><hr>

When I get back from vacation, I plan to start looking into refactoring skill and stat gain. The intent is not to change anything much, but to reorganize the code to ensure that it works the way it is supposed to, and is easier to maintain going forward. I'd like to see some discussion of skill gain issues before then.

<hr></blockquote>

When I saw this post mentioned on the Stratics main page ... thought to myself "uhg ... I would so hate to have to read that thread". And in fact, I haven't. I honestly don't want to know what the players want ... fortunately for me I don't have to. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif

Why don't I? Because as my Gov 101 prof used to say "The masses are asses". I can already picture all the posts this thread will get ... I've heard it all before. People who think things are too easy ... people who think they're too hard. People will demand everyone "wants something for nothing" and that we shouldn't have to work to build characters ... others will complain that min-maxer types, powergamers, are cheaters and it should all be about the numbers coming naturally.

So what am I getting at? It's not their decision ... nor should it ever be. It's not our game, and I'm not going to sit here and whine that my $9.95 a month entitles me to make design decisions. Do I have ideas? Sure. Suggestions? Many. Do I want the dev team to imbibe and consider them? Sure. Do I feel it's some kind of ethical responsibility that you listen to me because I am the player and I demand you do such and such with my game. Never. It's not my game, its your game. It's the designer's game. It's not the player's game. It shouldn't be the player's game. Ever. Good games aren't made by asking people what they want ... good games are made by creative people having their own vision and if the players don't like it then they can go play something else. Good way to run a business no ... good way to make a game fun yes.

Not, as I said, that you can't listen to player input ... I would hate to have anyone imply that I think the devs should remain distant from the players. I just think that now and then you best not forget that its your job to know better than the players.

Lets break down the key points you brought up ...

<blockquote><hr>

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

<hr></blockquote>

This is a tough question to answer because it gets to the heart of the skill system as it stands now really ... but if I were to take your question a piece at a time I'd start with macroing prevention. Should you care? Absolutely. To everyone who just cried about wanting something for nothing ... here's a heads up I don't care. I'm sorry but the idea of making a game that you don't actually have to you know ... play ... is just absurd. The question is if macroing prevention is actually viable in it's current form I think.

I see no reason to remove 8x8 ... unless you want to actually put in a managable system that can appeal to "casual" skill gain players and your powergame base equally that doesn't involve the current anti-macro code but rather approaches the situation in a different way. The biggest argument against 8x8 is that it's extremely hard for a lot of people to grasp ... and unfortunately that includes 90% or more of the people who use it. They couldn't tell their head from their arse but hey they downloaded a script that can so why do they need to?

I've always been the type of player to powergame the numbers ... as I've said before it's just in some players' nature. If I started a new paper and dice RPG with some friends the first thing I'd do is crack the book open and digest the numbers ... it's the way I play games. It's not a computer game thing, it's not a UO thing, it's a game thing ... some people play that way some people don't care and just jump in. Something that's actually bothered me for years now is that since the advent of the programs people exploit constantly with now, everyone thinks they're a powergamer. Some idiot downloads a script to max out his skills and he thinks he's hot stuff even though he has no idea what he just did. Years ago "playing hard" meant you know ... actually ... playing. Hard.

The problem is I don't know the answer as to how to make this better ... if you remove macro prevention entirely you will just see an explosion of even easier exploitation of the skill system. If you don't ... well, is the status-quo really that great? There are skills now that the antimacro system cripples for people who want to powergame them ... such as magic resistance. I think that part of the solution ultimately lay in the Guaranteed Gain System which turned out to be a hideous joke. It's been dubbed "GGS - Guaranteed Gain ... Sometimes" by friends of mine. When the longest times were 4 hours and little nuances and caveats hadn't snuck in whereby you might just not get a GGS at all ... then it was a good idea. Now it's the ******* child of a good idea and a bad idea.

<blockquote><hr>

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

<hr></blockquote>

I think that the answer to your first question is tied to your second question ... to which I would say NO. That should be a no-brainer ... skills are not the same they should not gain the same or be equally as challenging.

I think the best way to think this through would be to break down skills into categories ... which would have fundamental assumptions made about their difficulty. Warrior skills, sorcery skills, Rogue skills, Crafting skills ... etc. Each should have their own assumed difficulty.

When I say this in regards to how "long" it should take to GM ... my answer mind you is not the same you're probaby getting from everyone else. No doubt most people are screaming that either they want Test Center code or they think you should have to play for five years to GM a skill. I would say to you that one of the merits of UO that has maintained my interest is that it has always reflected effort. Well, until certain illegal third party utilities came about anyway. How long it takes to GM should reflect how badly you want it. The timeframe you should most worry about is how long it would take a casual player doing casual things. A few weeks to a month for warrior skills maybe ... similar for wizardry, longer for crafting ... etc.

<blockquote><hr>

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

<hr></blockquote>

I think that if most skills had some kind of in-game guide the way crafting does with tools, that would resolve this question. I see no reason that giving people information up front they're going to find out easily anyway is an aversion to immersive gameplay. The stuff you don't want to give away up front is the big "wow" info ... can I cast X spell is really not that big of a "wow".

<blockquote><hr>

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

<hr></blockquote>

Well, yes. Again, what you're really doing is decoupling character advancement from concious effort on the part of the player ... which is what has always made UO cool. I have to concur with some players though that there's issues with stat gains now ... some skills just aren't giving any at all.

In conclusion do I have all of (or ... you know ... any of) the answers? No. Do I believe there are some fundamentals that should be adhered to, whatever solutions you may design? Absolutely. Freebees are terrible ... be it macroing or a system that just "gives" you skill for no effort. Effort should always be rewarded ... "time to GM" should always be relative to the effort the player is willing to expend. Current antimacro tends to break down and with existing exploits can be too easily circumvented ... new ideas are necesary. There's nothing wrong with 8x8, but if rendered obsolete by new and better skill systems, then there's nothing wrong with that either.

-X

 

[aitrusdni]

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

<font color=000080>I don't have a clue what 8x8 is, so I can't comment. As for macros: Any kind of macroing that makes a task more convenient should be allowed; but macroing is currently used by a few to gain an unfair advantage over the majority, which is wrong. This ought to be countered somehow.</font color=000080>

- How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

<font color=000080>No, all skills should not be the same. But I also don't think that any skill should take less than a week to GM. In fact, I'm of the opinion that it should be a long, difficult process to GM a skill. Repetitive and low-usefulness skills (like mining, parry, resist) ought to take between a week and a month; more "exciting" skills and combat skills (including taming) ought to take a month to a year.</font color=000080>

- For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

<font color=000080>Perhaps there should be some sort of optional assessment feature which tells you something like "It looks like it would be almost too easy to tame that creature." It shouldn't give me that information unless I request it however; chances are I already know its going to be easy to tame a cat, and I probably don't expect to gain any skill for it.</font color=000080>

- I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

<font color=000080>Probably one of the worst ideas yet. Frankly, I am very annoyed that you guys removed skill-stat relevance. I could theoretically mine for 10 hours straight and gain 40 points in intelligence. This seems very ridiculous to me. I prefer some semblance of realism. I think stats ought to be tied to specific skills again like they were before; but maybe there could be a weighted chance to gain in other stats as well.

For instance, if I am mining, and I gain a stat point, I would have a 60% chance of gaining in strength, a 30% chance of gaining in dex, and a 10% chance of gaining in intelligence. That way I don't feel like I'm being patronized and rewarded with a random stat point just for playing the stinkin game. I also agree with someone who mentioned that stat gain ought to be possible for doing a task, not necessarily for gaining in it. If I'm 7xGM but need to boost my strength, I should be able to go mine and gain strength, without fiddling with skill distribution.

But the idea of giving me a random stat point every 15 minutes just for BEING in the game is utterly ludicrous. Anyone who's lazy enough to want a random stat point just for managing to breathe deserves to never accomplish anything.</font color=000080>

OK, I'll recap:
<font color=000080>1) Macroing for convenience, good. Macroing for the advantage, bad.
2) Lame and repetitive skills should take a week to a month to GM. Favorite skills should take a month to a year.
3) Only tell me how hard a task will be if I ask.
4) Tie stat gain to specific skills again, with weighted chances to gain, and link stat gain to tasks not skill gain.
</font color=000080>

 

[boo_star]

<blockquote><hr>

- How much should I care about macroing prevention? Should I eliminate 8x8? If skill gain were more predictable and sane, would you even need it?

<hr></blockquote>

Eliminate 8x8. But not because it's an easy system. Eliminate it because the current systems are ridiculous. GGS was a good system, then it jumped from 4hrs per GGS gain to near 24 hrs per GGS gain. A better system would be RoT with PH (up to 70 its PH, after that RoT) or the original version of GGS (maximum 4hrs between gains near GM)

<blockquote><hr>

How long should it reasonably take to GM a skill? Should all skills be the same?

<hr></blockquote>

If all skills earn as much money as each other then they should take the same time to GM. As is was pre pub16 (and possibly post) they were not equal and as such the skill gain should reflect that. If you fix the skills so they are as they were in the past, keep skill gain as it was.

<blockquote><hr>

For difficulty-based skills, what information do you need? If a task isn't hard enough for you, should it tell you that?

<hr></blockquote>

Most skills do, no need to change that.

<blockquote><hr>

I'm thinking about decoupling stat gain completely from skill gain -- so every 15 minutes, you would just gain a stat point, up to your daily limit. Is that a bad idea?

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, its a bad idea. Bring back the old system.

 

[Tendrimede]

So basically, UO is now runned by people who post on stratics board?