*sigh* almost a new player

[Eslake]

I finally got a friend who wanted a break from WoW to come try UO.
He and I have played together in DAoC, EQ, Vanguard, and WoW (and he always does better than I do). He is by no stretch of the imagination a newbie to the genre.

But we made one critical mistake - he installed the KR client.

After he spent over 4 hours learning such simple things as moving around, interracting with NPCs to shop, and even Finding his inventory, he sent me a long and opinionated Q on what he thought of the game (through the KR client).

This is someone who still plays some of the TEXT muds because he still finds them entertaining, hosts a BBS because he and some friends like games like L.O.R.D. and similar, and pays more in game subscriptions every month than I make.

The short version of his comments....
.. have never seen anything more counter-intuitive than this game's interface. Not even in a browser game!


I have been of the firm belief for a long time now that 2D has been holding the game back, by limiting expandability and the more obvious inability to convince new people to join because it simply isn't pleasant to look at.

But after reading his comments, and doing a Clean install of KR to better understand, I can't disagree with him on any point.

Those of us using it already have had monts(years) to figure out how to do the minor things, not to mention the more invovled, but to a new player, a game should not take days of study to figure out how to PLAY.
His remarks about finding his inventory really stuck, when I loaded it up and looked at the screen, with no indication of my character even having a backpack, and the interface even saying the assigned key was I which does NOT open it...

After fiddling around blindly with KR for a couple of hours myself, I realized he was dead on.
In the time it would take a typical player to learn to move about, cast spells, and fight in KR, they could learn the same in WoW - plus how to quest, level, craft, where the next town is and probably be doing their first class quest.


The Devs should really take this to heart. This isn't a player who was turned away by shoddy graphics, he plays text muds for crying out loud. This isn't a player who Expected to dislike the game, he was eager to join me here and wanted to try out the things I'd told him could be done in UO that can't on other games.
This was a player turned away by no other thing than the client that is supposed to bring the game into competition with others on the market (or a future version of the same).

KR/SA needs to fully consider the perspective of someone who has never seen UO, or it will be more of a hindrance on the game's long-term health than staying with 2D.

 

[Endrik]

Amen. I tried KR a few times and was only able to get it to work once. The one time I did get it to work, I spent a few hours just trying to figure out basics like how to open my pack and paperdoll and a few others. The straw that finally broke the camels back and made me uninstall it never to try again was when I spent over a half hour trying to mount my horse. I tried double clicking, single clicking, verbal commands, everything I could think of... and im a 10+ year vet of UO. Never was able to mount my horse. I will not even start on the graphics as this is a thread about UI. It took everything I had not to throw my laptop through the window. Just thinking about my experience with KR makes me want to go break something. heh.

Anyway, I completely agree, you hit it dead on.

***KR is the poster child for "Counter Intuitive User Interface".***

I hope and pray that SA will be even remotely user friendly.

 

[Uvtha]

I think they realize KR was a tragic failure. Thus the SA client one would imagine would try to fix things.

 

[Warrior of Time]

I can't imagin double clicking the horse not mounting it. If it is close to me I can even double click the health bar and get on it. Once I tame one I double click the health bar all the time.

It is no diff than in 2D.

 

[DevilsOwn]

many, myself included, have been saying the very same since introduction, and remarks ranged from "you didn't even try " to "but we have users (!) that are improving it" to not so veiled remarks about our intelligence

and I'm sure that we'll get a parade of players thru here with all that and more to say, so I just wanted to get this in before all that:

/signed

 

[love2winalot]

All a new player has to do is just Google UO, and spend some time researching info on the 4 main sites that provide the documentation for the game. Geeeez, it takes what..........14 maybe 16 hours Tops.........rolleyes:

The Fact is that the game has evolved in such a manner as to try to keep current players, and maybe get former players to return...........But there is almost NO way, a truely New player has a clue as to how to play the game

 

[Sebrina]

I can certainly understand the point being made here, so I agree and disagree at the same time. As an old AD&D player, it took many hours of reading and dice rolling to understand spells, armor, abilities, ect.

It was worth my time to learn it. This game was not a quick study either when I started 9 years ago. I still have not done nearly everything that can be done in this game. If it was supposed to be an easy learning curve, leave it to the kindergarten kids.

A couple of hours of this game is simply dealing with mechanics. The true legacy of THIS game is roleplay, which makes it a legend.

I will not hide the fact that I am not at all satisfied with KR...I still use 2D client because it WORKS for me.

 

[a slave girl]

"But we made one critical mistake - he installed the KR client."


NOoooooooooooooooooo!


How could you?


Psst...

Do what I did:

Forget KR ever existed and get him to try 2D.

I hate dark and dreary movies, games, etc. and will never waste anymore time trying to get used to KR's fugly BROWN menu/windows. Ughhh. Totally depressing, yuck. That's just one of the reasons I dislike KR.

I have been playing Warhammer today. (Everyone in your newbie starting area doing the same newbie quests to get the same newbie items/gear. Some, like the White Lion characters, all dressed EXACTLY the same and with EXACTLY the same white lion pet, how awfully boring).



I still think UO 2D is the better game.

 

[aarons6]

i love kr, it runs more smooth on my pc then 2d does.
2d uses up 100% cpu for some reason.. kr only 15% to 40%
i can run faster in kr then i can in 2d, i recall faster then in 2d also the client crashes about 30% of the time when i recall in 2d, and it has way better macros then UOA.

for one expample, i have a thief/mage/archer, i have kr set up when i go to steal something it automatically switches out my DI/LRC jewellery to +stealing jewellery, then it dissarms me and steals last target that i specifiy before hand and rearms me and puts my DI/LRC jewelery back on, all in the blink of an eye..

with some tweaking i bet i can make it pause the timer and try to hide me so i can auto stealth away..

you just have to learn to use it..

 

[monnie101]

I agree. I didn't like the new 3D client at all. It was horrible and very sad. I rather use the 2D client even though it's a painful clickfest still.

It's really saddening and disheartening that they got another chance and it didn't work out. I'm not sure what happened but it is very clunky and off looking. I guess for an old UO player that doesn't play new games at all, it's probably not as badly noticed. I thought that it was going to end up looking something like the 3d isometric RPGs that were click to move. Haven got totally ruined. That made me so sad. I don't know what they will do now because I don't think many people use that new client.

 

[Rix/\]

I returned after year break when they announed KR last year, tried to play it for 2 months I actually gotten it to work for me for about 3 days then they patched, haven't been able to get it to work since. So I want back to playing WoW, and here it s a year later I reactivate and ya UO still is weak. Now they've banned half their population and another 3rd quit, they're gonna try to get UO players to play Warhammer. Simular thing with another game they bought out closed the doors on the game and pushed those players into UO AoS. I hold on to my UO account for friends I have in UO which most have finally gave up on UO the few that are left are waiting on SA but lost all confidence is the UO Dev team since KR failed. SA fails I won't think twice about any UO, EA, MYTHIC games.

 

[Nenime]

In the time it would take a typical player to learn to move about, cast spells, and fight in KR, they could learn the same in WoW - plus how to quest, level, craft, where the next town is and probably be doing their first class quest.

Very true, Eslake. I can very much understand your friend. As I came back to UO after a year break I decided to try out the new KR client. The first hours I spent in Haven just trying to figure out how to fight, heal, set up makros and all that - and I was an experienced UO player! It was exactly the same feeling of awkwardness I had when I started UO looong ago in 2D with "The Second Age". If I weren't such a big fan of Ultima lore I would have deleted the game faster than I installed it. But I stayed and when you get used to KR it works pretty good - especially with a mod. (You Modders should get much more attention. )

I'm no KR votary though. Sometimes I log into 2D, sometimes KR. Both have their pro and cons. I like to try out new things so I'm curious about the SA client too.

 

[THP]

Its really simple...

The devs nead to make a ''classic playing'' interface as an option for the new SA.

I tried KR ... jeeze i did try it !!! but it was a totally new game!! it was a bind just to talk!!!

 

[Eslake]

"But we made one critical mistake - he installed the KR client."

NOoooooooooooooooooo!

How could you?

I wasn't thinking and let him find the download link on his own.

Maybe I can get him to give it another chance Monday, in 2D. But after spending that much time in pure frustration with the KR UI, he sure won't be expecting positive results.

many, myself included, have been saying the very same since introduction, and remarks ranged from "you didn't even try " to "but we have users (!) that are improving it" to not so veiled remarks about our intelligence

Yes, the same ones who go on about how "Obvious" everything should be since it is so easy to find on Google, etc.

The most obvious flaw with their logic is of course, that you have to know what you're looking for to punch it into Google or Yahoo in the first place...

But more importantly, that websites and hint sites(such as stratics) should provide SUPPLIMENTAL information on gameplay, not the CORE of it.


Imagine if they took 100 gamers right now, who had never played a MMORPG at all, and sat them down.
25 with UOKR, 25 with UO2D, 25 with WoW and 25 with .. take your pick... Vanguard is pretty close to the bottom of the barrel.

1 hour later, 75 of them would be In their game, killing things, blowing things up, just having fun in general.

The other 25 would using KR, either in-game or out on the net, trying to figure out how to play at all.


The amount of change needed to make KR a realistic choice for the future of UO in a new-player perspective is massive. A few tweaks and extra gumps aren't going to cut it.

 

[Nenime]

Now come on... if you're honest the 2D client wouldn't make a new player go Whoopee either.

As stated before in other threads, the problem is how to modernize a game in which the player base is used to an eleven year old graphic interface. Not an easy task. Should they even dispense with updating the graphic altogether? I don't know.

OT: In my opinion the client is the smallest problem of UO. True, a lot of the offical information is gappy, the ingame support by Gamemasters is ridiculous, the customer support is sometimes arrogant (if present), new add-ons long overdue, and and and...
So why we yet still play? Because we love UO even so. It's like an driving an oldtimer. Many disadvantages compared to newer cars but fun though.

 

[Sneaky Que]

1 hour later, 75 of them would be In their game, killing things, blowing things up, just having fun in general.

The other 25 would using KR, either in-game or out on the net, trying to figure out how to play at all.

Wrong.

1. 25 of them would be "having fun" slaughtering pigs etc. in the Barrens whilst having the pleasure of listening to kids rant endlessly about Chuck Norris.

2. 25 of them would be stuck in New Haven, working out how to use their UI and wondering where the manual is (www.spellweave.com is the best, for future reference).

3. 25 of them would be in New Haven, (sadly) wondering why they are playing a game in 2008 that still uses 1997 graphics, most of them will leave never knowing what they missed out on. The ones that stay will be faced with the task of finding up to date/accurate information on how to use this ancient client (a friend who has played/plays UO is invaluable here, the best manual there is for 2D is in the head's of veteran players).

4. 25 would be playing some other WoW clone MMO, so same answer as #1.

 

[RoycroftLS]

I can certainly understand the point being made here, so I agree and disagree at the same time. As an old AD&D player, it took many hours of reading and dice rolling to understand spells, armor, abilities, ect.

It was worth my time to learn it. This game was not a quick study either when I started 9 years ago. I still have not done nearly everything that can be done in this game. If it was supposed to be an easy learning curve, leave it to the kindergarten kids.

But back 9+ years ago, UO was still a pioneer of the MMORPG scene. Of course there would have been some difficulties with creating an intuitive online game interface, as it was something that hadn't really been done before.

Other games have come around in the meantime and solved a lot of the interface issues that people had with the "first-generation" MMORPGs. I think that is what frustrates a lot of the playerbase on this issue. There are plenty of examples of how to build a better mousetrap, and then when a client like KR is released it is even less intuitive than 2D in some respects.

 

[Uriah Heep]

Reminds me of a quote, the author of which I cannot recall:

The best thing about Kingdom Reborn is the speed with which it uninstalls

If Stygian Abyss has the same interface, and same unGodly macro setup system, the same Anti-UO everything in the UI, and has to have the players! programming and improving it, I predict it too will die a quick death.
No matter what the new items are added (gargoyles? heheh) and new monsters and loot, if I have to play with anything like KR to get/see/use em, I'll go back to fighting the old legacy monsters with a new char, till that fun wears off, and then move on...
Keep UO as UO, you can have 3d graphics and clients and stuff, without having to screw up the UI !

 

[D'Amavir]

Reminds me of a quote, the author of which I cannot recall:


If Stygian Abyss has the same interface, and same unGodly macro setup system, the same Anti-UO everything in the UI, and has to have the players! programming and improving it, I predict it too will die a quick death.
No matter what the new items are added (gargoyles? heheh) and new monsters and loot, if I have to play with anything like KR to get/see/use em, I'll go back to fighting the old legacy monsters with a new char, till that fun wears off, and then move on...
Keep UO as UO, you can have 3d graphics and clients and stuff, without having to screw up the UI !

Couldn't agree more. UO is and always has been one of a kind. Yes, the graphics are very outdated. They could stand some tweaking. But not at the expense of the game itself. As you said, Keep UO as UO.

I am all for players being allowed to tweak interfaces and/or tools and such, as many would know already. But when it becomes more or less required to have players fix a very very flawed design, something is wrong. I know people love KR, I accept that. But many do not. And with good reason, for them at least.

 

[Lord Drakelord]

Tell him to get the 2d version. As for the KR side of the coin, we tried it, we did not like it, we unstall it. We will remain in 2d till they close the program at which time we will close all our accounts and walk away.

 

[T_Amon_from_work]

Your friend puts it well in the quoted part of his message. I have uninstalled KR from my system ... the interface is just sooooooo wrong on so many fronts for it to be usable, IMO.

The 2D (simplistic) handling of many things makes for an easier learning curve to new people. I played DAoC thru the release of Trials of Atlantis and the look/feel of that game was a lot better then than KR is now.

I too llike the MU* games ... I had one of my own for several years. I might just go looking for some rejuvenation of my RP abilities.

 

[Sebrina]

But back 9+ years ago, UO was still a pioneer of the MMORPG scene. Of course there would have been some difficulties with creating an intuitive online game interface, as it was something that hadn't really been done before.

Other games have come around in the meantime and solved a lot of the interface issues that people had with the "first-generation" MMORPGs. I think that is what frustrates a lot of the playerbase on this issue. There are plenty of examples of how to build a better mousetrap, and then when a client like KR is released it is even less intuitive than 2D in some respects.

*bows* Agreed! But you sure won't find me on WoW with characters looking the same. Even with outdated graphics on 2D and bad graphics (my oppinion) on KR the versatility of UO is uncomparable to "lateral," streamline games even if they have better graphics.

The other issue is that many people are not used to "open-ended" scenarios. Many other games put up the leveling and end-game or level type "fireworks" after proceeding though certain adventure/scenarios. This is not the typical case with UO, unless you do quests. Though you don't see firworks, you still have respectively gained and you are quite aware of it.

I respect the oppinions of all, but believe that Eslake's friend was seeing a poor example of what UO really is. I would have balked as well, if that was the version that I first saw. There is probably no way to help change his oppinion or attitude now. First impressions stay with you a long long time.

 

[GarthGrey]

Ok, I refuse to read the rest of this thread until Dermott comes in and not only describes how "natural" the game feels to him after trial and error, how smoothly it runs on his system, but also how great he and the other UI Mods over at "oops, almost gave a website"....

 

[Kith Kanan]

All i have to say to your friend is RTFM !!!!

 

[Crystal Canyon]

I , for one, wish that the Dev Team would soley concentrate on fixing the bugs in the original version of UO instead of spending any time at all trying to come up with a "new and improved" version. A "wow me" Uo game! We were "wowed" when the game came out, we just want to be satisfied now with upgrades.

Ive read many complaints about Uo in the last 5 years and why people think that the Dev Team didnt come up with a successful update or expansion..I think it is a "what if" situation....

What if they stop with all the "Meets and the Town Hall Get Togethers: and simply stay in the office and work on our game.

What if, all the money spent to send these people all over world to meet UO players, was actually spent on improving the game. What if all the TIME that was spent at these socials and on the road, was instead used to fix problems we have been having for years in the game.

Im sorry, I just feel as though, PR is a "bit" over taxed here and that so much more could be accomplished if the people responsible for putting out a decent game were at thier computers doing just that.

I know how important PR is but to what degree is it now helping or hindering the game? Isnt that what Stratics is for, so that we can get to know the people behind the game, discuss game isssues, and keep up on what is happening behind the scenes? We do get that here and it doesnt cost thousands of dollars. Im sure we get just as many questioned answered here as we would if we traveled many miles and ask in person.

Nothing against our Dev team, truley, just think that the money could be spent more wisely and our game improved.

 

[Eslake]

All i have to say to your friend is RTFM !!!!

ROFL! I hope you were joking.

The first 3 lines of How-To-Play in the KR manual..
Add spell potion or item onto a hotbar slot : Drag and drop item into slot
Use Hotbar slot : [1] - [=]
Open backpack :

Fresh install KR and try to follow those instructions. Heck take it to the extreme of RTFM and follow the instructions one at a time from start to finish.
hmm I wonder why that isn't working.. Because the Manual is wrong in so many places you are better off not using it.


I have played UO for over a decade, and never needed the manuals to understand how to play. The paperdoll is up the first time you create a character, with buttons on it that give you a good indication of what they do, and your backpack is Open where you can see what you have to work with, etc..
The only things to "Learn" about playing it are how to make macros, but a few minutes of trial and error clear that up.

2D is not easier to learn Because it is "2D" but because they made it so that it would be easy to understand.
KR is as close as they could come to the Opposite of that without being a completely different game.

If I pay $3,500 for a new digital electronic device/appliance, you bet I'm going to be reading the manuals. All of them, repeatedly.

But for a game, the manuals should be something you turn to when something isn't working as you expect it to, or you want to tweak some aspect of your play. No one wants to sit reading a manual when they have just installed a GAME, they paid for a game, not a book.

The difference...
UO2D, I've played for over 10 years. The only time I ever looked at the manual was to read the toons in the LBR manual, browse the creature descriptions in Ren's manual, etc. Never to actually learn to play.
I've had every skill to 100 several times (except forensics and taste ID) and most of the 120-able skills to 120 at least twice. I've run defender guilds (pre-Ren) PvP guilds (Pre-AoS) and been in several RP groups. I've faught every creature in the game (except the mino champ) and been to every part of the game world.

No manual required.

WoW - similar story. I had the 4th ranked arena team on my server, my own guild with over 50 members, 3 characters leveled to 70 and 2 more over 60, 2 characters fully purple (epic gear), and mastered every tradeskill. Time spent on the manual? 0.5 seconds to read the title on the cover.

No manual required.


So what makes KR so special?

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Ok, I refuse to read the rest of this thread until Dermott comes in and not only describes how "natural" the game feels to him after trial and error, how smoothly it runs on his system, but also how great he and the other UI Mods over at "oops, almost gave a website"....

Ya know, I ought to ignore the callout from someone who apparently doesn't read everything printed and thus only gets half the story, and probably has not yet had to deal with the idea of their preferred client ACTUALLY being shut down and pushed into another.

But I'll go ahead and respond anyway, at least to the actual original topic at hand.

The OP considers the move to download and use KR a mistake. It could have easily been 2d being the mistake with its limited graphics, small resolution capabilities and other limitation of the client.

As it is, compared to the EQ/WoW/Etc level treadmill clones, the UI system for UO is a lot different and would take time to learn REGARDLESS of client chosen (not to mention that documentation for the game from the official source is limitedat best).

The question is not qhich client is easier, but is UO initially user friendly AT ALL?

Sure it's easy for any of us who have played for up to 11 years for Legacy or spent a year and a half actually learning the ins and outs of the KR client. But if he actually thought to remember back, how much REAL info did the Legacy client have and how long did it take people to REALLY get the hang of it from DAY ONE? Did you already know how to build the character? How about training?

Or did you take the time to ask and learn?

Was the friend pointed to various resources for KR UI information be it Spellweave or to ask questions on the KR forum which could be answered by fellow KR players? If not... why not?

If they're having trouble with the UI, then why not ask WHAT KIND OF TROUBLE they are having? Wouldn't you do the same if the client were 2d instead of KR, or give them the info if you knew it?

KR took me some time to learn (and yes, on the modding end, we're still learning a LOT Of new things that can be done with the client), but then so did 2d back in January of 1998... so what's the difference other than the biases of the OP and certain posters here.

Finally, I WILL respond on the issue of UI mods with one thing. I don't see what the gripe is about getting people to use KR UI mods coming from the same people who "cannot play UO without UOA or UOAM". Don't be downtalking one while hugging the other... just be thankful that we haven't charged for the work we've been doing AND we've been updating ours constantly. When exactly has UOA or UOAM been updated recently besides player tweaks to just keep them running?

If you're loading up UOA and/or UOAM with the Legacy client each time you log on, you have NO leg to stand on whining about the fact that there are a few of us who are taking our own time and coding efforts to add in UI mods to the KR client.

Finally, I have NEVER had a problem with someone usig the KR clien, inding it not to tir likng and going a different direction. I will say that I have more respect for those who try it, ask for advice on it, ask for knowledge on it, and THEN when they understand it, make their decision over those who spend 5 or 10 minutes and call it a lost cause without even asking a single question.

But their decision is theirs to make. All I say is that they give each client a fair shot, then choose the one that suits them best. If they want to try the KR client and have questions, feel more than free to ask, if I can't answer personally, there are plenty more who can.

 

[Sir Stain]

I have been adamant about this for ages. The game is in trouble and they ( EA or whom ever, I wonder if anyone is at home) Does nothing to attract new players. When potential new players come on UO they find it too time consuming to make a char that can do anything worthwhile. The skills are too hard to raise and the game itself is complex enough to equal reading war and peace. Then of all things the hipocritical veterans that post on here, that have (credit given here) worked hard to build fully developed chars would rather let the game fold rather than give in to making it easier for new players to enter. I read one great post on this matter that I brought up not many days ago. Let the first character on an new acct choose a GM level character to get started with. Now go ahead and attack me and Eslake with the ferocity of Hyenas the way You always do. When the plug is pulled>> Enough said! Food for thought!

 

[Sir Stain]

*bows* Agreed! But you sure won't find me on WoW with characters looking the same. Even with outdated graphics on 2D and bad graphics (my oppinion) on KR the versatility of UO is uncomparable to "lateral," streamline games even if they have better graphics.

I play WoW and I like the graphics. I play UO on 2d and I like the graphics here too. The base point made is the difficulty for a new player and in this case one being tutored by a veteran player as described above gave up after only a few days. For example and not to be promoting a competitor, when I started WoW I was up and running and playing with the veterans against Gruul (tough Ogre) in less than one week. On UO in less than one week you are still trying to get stats enough to wear descent armor MUCH less play against a Balron or even a gargoyle. You guys are all Veterans that post on here. It seems you have forgotten how time consuming it is to make a fully developed player much less 5 or 6 of them which it takes to effectively play this game. The new player above was a veteran player to the gaming world and gave UO up because it was too hard to get started. Now what part of this do you not understand? Help the game by allowing new clients play with us old veterans.

 

[Eslake]

...The OP considers the move to download and use KR a mistake. It could have easily been 2d being the mistake with its limited graphics, small resolution capabilities and other limitation of the client.

Considering he continues to play games that don't even Have graphics, I doubt that would be an issue.

The question is not qhich client is easier, but is UO initially user friendly AT ALL?

Sure it's easy for any of us who have played for up to 11 years for Legacy or spent a year and a half actually learning the ins and outs of the KR client.

UO is not a game with a high difficulty learning curve - at least not the 2D client.
My fiance had never played it, or any other MORPG for that matter, and installed it at work so she could play while I played from home. She managed in her Free Time during that first day while At Work to figure out how to get around, make money, hire NPCs to kill things she couldn't, and had trained (from an NPC) taming so she could tame her own horses - which she was having a grand time doing.
I wasn't online at all that day to help her, she didn't have to go to websites to figure it out.

That is how a game's interface Should be, user friendly, and intuitive. KR is neither.

Was the friend pointed to various resources for KR UI information be it Spellweave or to ask questions on the KR forum which could be answered by fellow KR players? If not... why not?

Ignoring the fact that I wasn't sitting in the same room with the guy to hold his hand and Lead him to external sources on how to Play the game do you really think such direction should be required at all?

 

[Ni-]

Did he not go through the newbie quest? Last time I did that it clearly described the inventory/backpack. The inventory/backpack button is, by default, at the bottom of the KR screen. There is also a Backpack icon on the paper doll.

Moving around is basically the same for both clients, it's actually easier in the KR client because you don't get stuck on path blocking items while going N,S,E,W.

Interacting with NPCs is very similar, all-be-it backwards, in both the 2D and KR clients.

Your friend should have been used to the typing/talking method of KR.

KR/SA needs to fully consider the perspective of someone who has never seen UO, or it will be more of a hindrance on the game's long-term health than staying with 2D.

I'm all for this statement. The thing is, there has been an enormous amount of complaining that KR was already too much like other games, and that is part of the reason current UOers don't like it.

All I really know, however is that I like what KR has to offer so far and I look forward to a completed client with the SA upgrade.

 

[Landicine]

I installed KR after doing a major upgrade to my computer. I wanted to like it. I wanted to love it. I was disappointed. The interface is a huge part of it.

I remember starting UO ~10.5 years ago. There were interface problems (the old crafting menu), but they were at least intuitive. I don't remember having a problem with the interface. I was able to play well enough to get lost north of Vesper.

I had trouble with KR's interface. I've seen players struggle to transfer pets with that client. I don't mind learning a new interface if it is at least easy to pickup, but KR isn't that. I don't have enough hours in the day to struggle with it when I can actually play with the other client.

I don't think the comparison with tabletop RPG is fair. The basic interface of most games is "roll some dice" and either add numbers or lookup on a table or something similar. The armor and weapon and spell information is the details of the world much like the armor and weapons and spells of UO. Tabletop RPGs also make the players do all the mechanics and bookkeeping which adds to learning time. Still, the GM of my tabletop game can teach a new system to our group in about 10-20 minutes and do a short adventure in an evening. That isn't nearly enough time to learn the KR interface. I know I've put in a bit more than that.

 

[Beefybone]

I installed KR and it took me a while to figure out how to use bandages from the hotbar while fighting a monster, without the client going "LOL U CANT HEAL A MONSTER!" It's a horrible embarassing wreck, worse than Third Dawn was back in the day.

 

[ColterDC]

I'm glad I didn't spend more than an hour fiddling with KR to realize what a huge steaming pile of crap it is.

The sad thing is most Vets were excited for an update to the client, but once again EA severely disappointed.

 

[Kiminality]

That is how a game's interface Should be, user friendly, and intuitive. KR is neither.

No UO client has a "user friendly, and intuitive" interface.

Simply because one person you know had an easy time with the 2D interface, and another had a hard time with KR, doesn't prove anything.

KR's problem is that it's trying to drop a "WoW-clone" interface on a game that is definitely not a "WoW-clone".
In itself, the "WoW-clone" interface is good. It's the result of taking the good parts from other games, and polishing them up.
However, the KR (and a fair few other) implementations leave a lot to be desired.
So, KR has a not-so-good implementation of an interface which is commonly used for very different styles of games.
It's no wonder people have a tough time

 

[Beefybone]

The KR interface only resembles the WoW interface in the minds of people who haven't played WoW and think anything with a hotbar is just like it. When I put that bandage in my hotbar in WoW and click it, the game sees that I'm targeting a monster and applies the bandage to my character, instead of asking me why I want to heal a monster like some sort of ******.

 

[Kiminality]

The KR interface only resembles the WoW interface in the minds of people who haven't played WoW and think anything with a hotbar is just like it.

My comparison is of design, and intended functionality.
They were aiming for something familiar to the bulk of MMO players.

 

[Caelas]

When I put that bandage in my hotbar in WoW and click it, the game sees that I'm targeting a monster and applies the bandage to my character, instead of asking me why I want to heal a monster like some sort of ******.

Amen! That line made me giggle so hard that my coworkers started looking at me funny.

Honestly the only things I have tried in KR was the newbie quest, and then went to 2D...they tried hunting in KR and got miffed...then went back to 2D.

Thinking maybe installing a mod to KR and trying it...but I'm not 100% sold yet. Might use it for a crafting spree to get my skills up in Heatwood. (Quests ftw)

 

[Syfka]

When I put that bandage in my hotbar in WoW and click it, the game sees that I'm targeting a monster and applies the bandage to my character, instead of asking me why I want to heal a monster like some sort of ******.

Amen! That line made me giggle so hard that my coworkers started looking at me funny.

lol that is funny

 

[Shamus Turlough]

Anyone who is so in love with the KR client needs to do one thing. Come to LS and duel me mage vs. mage. I'll show you why the KR client is so bad.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I finally got a friend who wanted a break from WoW to come try UO.
He and I have played together in DAoC, EQ, Vanguard, and WoW (and he always does better than I do). He is by no stretch of the imagination a newbie to the genre.

But we made one critical mistake - he installed the KR client.

After he spent over 4 hours learning such simple things as moving around, interracting with NPCs to shop, and even Finding his inventory, he sent me a long and opinionated Q on what he thought of the game (through the KR client).

This is someone who still plays some of the TEXT muds because he still finds them entertaining, hosts a BBS because he and some friends like games like L.O.R.D. and similar, and pays more in game subscriptions every month than I make.

The short version of his comments....
.. have never seen anything more counter-intuitive than this game's interface. Not even in a browser game!


I have been of the firm belief for a long time now that 2D has been holding the game back, by limiting expandability and the more obvious inability to convince new people to join because it simply isn't pleasant to look at.

But after reading his comments, and doing a Clean install of KR to better understand, I can't disagree with him on any point.

Those of us using it already have had monts(years) to figure out how to do the minor things, not to mention the more invovled, but to a new player, a game should not take days of study to figure out how to PLAY.
His remarks about finding his inventory really stuck, when I loaded it up and looked at the screen, with no indication of my character even having a backpack, and the interface even saying the assigned key was I which does NOT open it...

After fiddling around blindly with KR for a couple of hours myself, I realized he was dead on.
In the time it would take a typical player to learn to move about, cast spells, and fight in KR, they could learn the same in WoW - plus how to quest, level, craft, where the next town is and probably be doing their first class quest.


The Devs should really take this to heart. This isn't a player who was turned away by shoddy graphics, he plays text muds for crying out loud. This isn't a player who Expected to dislike the game, he was eager to join me here and wanted to try out the things I'd told him could be done in UO that can't on other games.
This was a player turned away by no other thing than the client that is supposed to bring the game into competition with others on the market (or a future version of the same).

KR/SA needs to fully consider the perspective of someone who has never seen UO, or it will be more of a hindrance on the game's long-term health than staying with 2D.

SIMPLE SOLUTION

KR GRAPHICS. (yeah improve some of them)
And remember you can change to legacy graphics that still look good in KR.

KEEP ALL INTERFACING THE SAME AS 2D


Thats it.

It wasnt hard to learn 2d.

Click and equip
Click and open
Touch and drag

Sure macros could use some love and that would have been next. Slow and steady fixing only what needs fixing.

Ah well

SYGAIN ABYSS will fix it all. WOOOHOOO.

 

[Sir Kenga]

/signed

Although there is some good macros ideas, KR is too ugly, and user unfriendly.

 

[Magnus]

Yet again, another overstatement. To say that KR has a worse interface than a browser based game is a lie. Because - As many of the people who dislike the client are happy to point out - It is quite generic, in the fact that it follows the setup of pretty much any other modern MMORPG.

As for not understanding such things as movement, attacking, etc. - They didn't use the Haven tutorial that is there for a reason, it walks you through movement, attacking, death, npcs - Etc.

And reading that he plays MUDs - My faith in his ability to give an opinion on an interface comes in question - MUDs have some of the most oldfashion, bare interfaces in some areas - Especially in usability. While I do love them, and do play them - They aren't the most userfriendly to get around.

What I would suggest - Is that instead of readily bashing KR, look at the player, they're not doing something right, whether it is reading the tips strewn throughout the client, or not doing the tutorial - There is an issue with connecting with it, which isn't the clients fault. Compared to 2D KR has a much better setup for new players, a lot of the information is easily available either through the tutorial text or through the '?' on the various windows.

As for the mounts - Double click, its not different than 2D, and for your backpack - Well if he has played other games, like WoW they should see the large backpack in the default place (lower right) and click on that - Again, as many readily say - The interface is like most other MMOs and has a common theme about it, something that 2D lacks.

 

[monnie101]

I wasn't thinking and let him find the download link on his own.

Maybe I can get him to give it another chance Monday, in 2D. But after spending that much time in pure frustration with the KR UI, he sure won't be expecting positive results.



Yes, the same ones who go on about how "Obvious" everything should be since it is so easy to find on Google, etc.

The most obvious flaw with their logic is of course, that you have to know what you're looking for to punch it into Google or Yahoo in the first place...

But more importantly, that websites and hint sites(such as stratics) should provide SUPPLIMENTAL information on gameplay, not the CORE of it.


Imagine if they took 100 gamers right now, who had never played a MMORPG at all, and sat them down.
25 with UOKR, 25 with UO2D, 25 with WoW and 25 with .. take your pick... Vanguard is pretty close to the bottom of the barrel.

1 hour later, 75 of them would be In their game, killing things, blowing things up, just having fun in general.

The other 25 would using KR, either in-game or out on the net, trying to figure out how to play at all.


The amount of change needed to make KR a realistic choice for the future of UO in a new-player perspective is massive. A few tweaks and extra gumps aren't going to cut it.

lol That's so true. The fact is that it seems like World of Warcraft has set the mold for MMOG interfaces. Vanguard coppied or borrowed it, and now Warhammer did also. I guess you can compare this to any product. For example the Sony Walkman, the Apple IPOD, the Apple IPHONE. Those products set the mold for the looks, interface, and user-ability. When you get in a car you've never driven, you check the left side for the headlights on button, you check the right for the shifter. You check either the left foot area or the right shift area for the break.

While WOW's interface is admittedly easy to use and revolutionary in terms of borrowing ideas to put into one easy user interface, I've had a few issues with it that I don't like but they are minor.

WoW is the game who brought millions of new people into the genre. Now when those people quit and get on a game like Warhammer, they can easily get into it. I guess it works well in that aspect.

 

[Arch Magus]

*replying to a week old thread*

Get your friend on the 2D!
Please, if he loves all those games he will certainly love this one.

Starting him on Kingdom Stillborn was certainly a mistake.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

All i have to say to your friend is RTFM !!!!

There's a manual? I must have missed it somewhere.

*looks around*

Oh.

That was supposed to be a manual?

Oh dear.

 

[Magnus]

Well, it answers the questions with the interface, combined with the New Players Guide on the official website, which there are links to in the manual, and the various resources around, and the tutorials ingame, getting a handle on UO, especially with KR is quite easy.

 

[Masuri]

Without even going into whether KR is a *better* client than 2D, I have a really hard time buying that anyone except a die-hard 2D player would honestly say that KR is a harder client to *learn*. KR is more generic, KR has extensive tutorials, KR adopts conventional MMO inventories and hotbars, KR plays like modern isometric RPGs. It's much more intuitive than original 2D (oh the days of being dumped in Britain with 100 gold and a candle and no clue how to get your skills into macros).

Now, I can understand why a 2D player might have a harder time than a total newbie learning KR, since you're not just learning KR, you're unlearning 2D, and humans have a natural resistance to things like that. (For example: if you two-finger-type faster than most people touch-type, you might ask yourself whether learning to touch-type is worth all the effort.) But honestly, some of those examples... he couldn't find his backpack? Seriously? I think WoW's backpack button is even SMALLER than KR's, and there's *two* in KR. It stretches credibility... I think your friend's problem extends beyond the KR interface, or he just doesn't want to tell you that your pet game is old and dated.

If I needed to put a newbie into the game, whether or not he'd ever played an MMO before, it would definitely be using KR. Most newcomers would be far more turned off by 1997 graphics and lack of an interface than by yet-another-isometric-game-with-a-WoW-UI. I couldn't keep a soul in the game back when it was 2D/3D or bust.

 

[Arch Magus]

I think your friend's problem extends beyond the KR interface, or he just doesn't want to tell you that your pet game is old and dated.

I think it's because the KR client is ugly as sin, and is a CPU hog.