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BrianFreud
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I mean thats a tough one, the point of having them not recognized is to not contribute to how those items were obtained, or encourage items like that in the future. If they are listed, it givens them legitimacy, making the creation of additional items like that more appealing. (i realize it is alot harder to do nowadays, but people always find a way)
From what ive seen theres about 150ish items (probably more) that could be on such a list, Just by making that information available makes them able to be sought after, rather than just chance encountered in game and personally researched. Like, if a collector sees the list, next he can ask around about those items, leading eventually to no doubtedly larger profit off these corrupt items than there would have been if they were left out of official documentation. If they arent documented, finding and buying those items becomes much less likely to happen.
Personally, i think since stratics still trys to support what is "official" procedure in UO, a list like that might be more proper on a personal site, but not here on stratics.
From what ive seen theres about 150ish items (probably more) that could be on such a list, Just by making that information available makes them able to be sought after, rather than just chance encountered in game and personally researched. Like, if a collector sees the list, next he can ask around about those items, leading eventually to no doubtedly larger profit off these corrupt items than there would have been if they were left out of official documentation. If they arent documented, finding and buying those items becomes much less likely to happen.
Personally, i think since stratics still trys to support what is "official" procedure in UO, a list like that might be more proper on a personal site, but not here on stratics.
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on the flip side the more info that is available the better informed people will be not to purchase such items... Furthermore if any more of them do get created it will only drive the price of these items down thereby making it not worth the time to create them.
This is the classic sex ed/ drug education class.... would you rather inform your kids of what they will ultimately learn on their own or would you rather shelter them for as long as possible?
I think having this list is a good idea. To Scribble's point, it allows collectors to see if an item they are interested in has been verified. I personally have quite a few of these items. If they aren't illegal, I don't really care if they are "legitimate" or not. They are still part of UO's history - the same as many other types of rare items. And by players like me and many others purchasing these items, it legitimizes them, no matter what any list says.
I only hear crickets when I go into my long-winded parables, but I'm going to try it anyway. There are many copies of Leonardo Da Vinci's Mona Lisa that for a long time were thought to be worthless knockoffs - creations by Da Vinci's pupils. Over time, the public started to appreciate these replicas and compare them to the original. The most notable one, which the painter is unknown but likely one of two pupils, is on display in the Museo Del Prado in Madrid. Its value doesn't rival the original, but I'm sure if auctioned, it would fetch a large amount from a private collector. is it "legitimate"? No. Does it have value and historical relevance? Enough so that it's in the permanent collection of the world's second largest art museum.
I only hear crickets when I go into my long-winded parables, but I'm going to try it anyway. There are many copies of Leonardo Da Vinci's Mona Lisa that for a long time were thought to be worthless knockoffs - creations by Da Vinci's pupils. Over time, the public started to appreciate these replicas and compare them to the original. The most notable one, which the painter is unknown but likely one of two pupils, is on display in the Museo Del Prado in Madrid. Its value doesn't rival the original, but I'm sure if auctioned, it would fetch a large amount from a private collector. is it "legitimate"? No. Does it have value and historical relevance? Enough so that it's in the permanent collection of the world's second largest art museum.
Really i dont care one way or another about a list, ideally, i would like to see no list. however i would also not like to see any exploit items sold here. and that boat has sailed. I think its a bit sad when the largest sale on stratics this year was duped cloth. I do think it encourages the creation and profit off these items, but im probably a minority in what i value in rares collecting nowadays.
I guess for me its kinda like collecting Nazi paraphanalia (not saying Corrupt EMs were nearly as bad as Nazis lol)
its a good example. yes, it was a part of history and very collectable, but many sites forbid the sale or dont include those items simply out of respect and principle. whats done is done, and it is history, many well known world museums house such items for educational and historical purposes, its just a matter of what image and values a site wants to show its support to.
As for more information, the current way to tell if an item is from a corrupt EM or exploit is that is Isnt on manticore's official list. that has always been the way ive identified those types of items. i have no need to look them up, or go searching for them. the lack of information on them is enough information for me to identify it as a corrupt EM item.
Whats to be included in this information? Would numbers be listed? just listing numbers would be deceptive because these items were much more likely to be duped given origins / and who was involved with them at the tiem)
Will the name of the corrupt EM be documented? (for many of these items who created what is well known) just that could violate certain terms of stratics.
Peronally if a list is to be created, i think the EM who created it (if known) should be part of the information if we're moving as a site towards this kinda of transparency with corrupt items in general.
If the items are to be officially listed here, how will discussion be handled? take for instance the recently created void ingots. Those items definitely werent documented. i have a feeling that much discussion on it would violate stratics tos. in my mind, its irrational to officially list something and then not be able to discuss information surrounding those items.
Theres just alot to consider, its not just about the information but of how / what stratics wants to handle a very delicate, ugly, and controversial element to UOs history.
@Captn Norrington @Nexus you might even want a meeting with the board or ask mesanna's thoughts before making a decision.
I guess for me its kinda like collecting Nazi paraphanalia (not saying Corrupt EMs were nearly as bad as Nazis lol)
its a good example. yes, it was a part of history and very collectable, but many sites forbid the sale or dont include those items simply out of respect and principle. whats done is done, and it is history, many well known world museums house such items for educational and historical purposes, its just a matter of what image and values a site wants to show its support to.
As for more information, the current way to tell if an item is from a corrupt EM or exploit is that is Isnt on manticore's official list. that has always been the way ive identified those types of items. i have no need to look them up, or go searching for them. the lack of information on them is enough information for me to identify it as a corrupt EM item.
Whats to be included in this information? Would numbers be listed? just listing numbers would be deceptive because these items were much more likely to be duped given origins / and who was involved with them at the tiem)
Will the name of the corrupt EM be documented? (for many of these items who created what is well known) just that could violate certain terms of stratics.
Peronally if a list is to be created, i think the EM who created it (if known) should be part of the information if we're moving as a site towards this kinda of transparency with corrupt items in general.
If the items are to be officially listed here, how will discussion be handled? take for instance the recently created void ingots. Those items definitely werent documented. i have a feeling that much discussion on it would violate stratics tos. in my mind, its irrational to officially list something and then not be able to discuss information surrounding those items.
Theres just alot to consider, its not just about the information but of how / what stratics wants to handle a very delicate, ugly, and controversial element to UOs history.
@Captn Norrington @Nexus you might even want a meeting with the board or ask mesanna's thoughts before making a decision.
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yes, but currently those "stories" would be violating stratics tos. like i said before, if this were one person's website, with no ties and rules / regulations about who and what we can and can not talk about it would be alot simpler.
basically by opening up one door, alot of other issues are going to have to be looked at.
If your posting an item, asking the community to contribute information on it and opening the item/situation up for discussion, of which some of that infomation and discussion you could currently be banned from the website for, that just doesnt seem like smart idea.
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Were not talking about illegal items, Smoot. Mesanna said the void and glacial ingots are illegal and delete-on-sight because they were obtained through an exploit. She hasn't taken the same stance on rogue EM items. And considering there is already a Stratics wiki page on undocumented items, I assume the staff doesn't have an issue with discussing them.
You are entitled to your opinion, though comparing rogue EM items in a video game to Nazis is the most hyperbolic thing I've read on these forums.
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but Manticore is suggesting creating a new list - not adding these to his official EM item list. So no one should have any problem distinguishing one from another.
Quantity and crafter can't be listed. By definition these items are undocumented and therefore a quantity and creator are unknown. But the logic you use regarding the possibility of excessive duping is speculative at best. I would assume the opposite, and most rogue items were one-off creations.
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You are entitled to your opinion, though comparing rogue EM items in a video game to Nazis is the most hyperbolic thing I've read on these forums.
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but Manticore is suggesting creating a new list - not adding these to his official EM item list. So no one should have any problem distinguishing one from another.
Quantity and crafter can't be listed. By definition these items are undocumented and therefore a quantity and creator are unknown. But the logic you use regarding the possibility of excessive duping is speculative at best. I would assume the opposite, and most rogue items were one-off creations.
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@Clops like i said it should be clarified, and all of this should be considered. i dont think anyone really noticed the added items in the wiki, this is the first time its been brought up. (and we're talking about 100s of more items not yet listed anywhere) Just about all these items were delete on sight at one time or another. where do we draw the line?
Other example similar to the ingots: the atlantic orc masks and the pac "ophidian dung" these are also relatively recent. ones delete on sight, other isnt. so where are we making the distinction?
To me if there was a list, it would have to be all inclusive. because delete on sight often becomes legal to own in just a few years. and if your doing that, your getting into other gray areas.
For all i know some of the EMs that have made items 5 or so years ago still use stratics. how is that to be handled? Im not even going to touch upon or mention those items.
im basing observations off of how things like this have been handled historically. i just cant see us being able to give out names, or essential accuse current EMs of corruption if any new items turn up, information gained, and then added to the list?
you yourself know stratics and i just dont see them allowing this type of information.
the void ingots was just a recent example. Im more thinking about well known EMs and items from 5 years ago or more. but thats not to say that how discussion / addition of any new items would be addressed when it came.
I just think the whole thing, knowing stratics policy on accusations of corruption, exposere of information, plus loose ties with Broadsword / Mesanna that its not as simple as just making a list of items. Yeah, you could do that and not have a plan or thoughts on any of what i just said, i just dont think it would smart to go ahead without considering any of those reasons why it may not be a great idea.
Now on the other hand, ive bought and sold some of these items. they have their place. I think a list on a personal website would be great. the stories behind some are really funny even if it does show the worst side of the EM program. I just dont think Stratics is the place for any of that knowing what the site is supposed to represent and standards its historically had in place.
Other example similar to the ingots: the atlantic orc masks and the pac "ophidian dung" these are also relatively recent. ones delete on sight, other isnt. so where are we making the distinction?
To me if there was a list, it would have to be all inclusive. because delete on sight often becomes legal to own in just a few years. and if your doing that, your getting into other gray areas.
For all i know some of the EMs that have made items 5 or so years ago still use stratics. how is that to be handled? Im not even going to touch upon or mention those items.
im basing observations off of how things like this have been handled historically. i just cant see us being able to give out names, or essential accuse current EMs of corruption if any new items turn up, information gained, and then added to the list?
you yourself know stratics and i just dont see them allowing this type of information.
the void ingots was just a recent example. Im more thinking about well known EMs and items from 5 years ago or more. but thats not to say that how discussion / addition of any new items would be addressed when it came.
I just think the whole thing, knowing stratics policy on accusations of corruption, exposere of information, plus loose ties with Broadsword / Mesanna that its not as simple as just making a list of items. Yeah, you could do that and not have a plan or thoughts on any of what i just said, i just dont think it would smart to go ahead without considering any of those reasons why it may not be a great idea.
Now on the other hand, ive bought and sold some of these items. they have their place. I think a list on a personal website would be great. the stories behind some are really funny even if it does show the worst side of the EM program. I just dont think Stratics is the place for any of that knowing what the site is supposed to represent and standards its historically had in place.
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thankyou i am glad i accomplished that : P
i agree with this as well, i was just going off of what is already included in the wiki. (currently has numbers listed and a link for discussion of the events / creation of that item)
I do agree that we should attempt to date undocumented items. Maybe original owners will be able to provide context of which shard they were first seen on or what time period they appeared. @Manticore, I'm happy to go through my collection and start itemizing undocumented rares. Maybe a different 'contribution' thread would be helpful. Or I can just direct message you.
just my opinions, the devs have opened the door for exploits by not deleting theml and having a list of items that will be deleted on sight. any items that is not supposed to be in game should of been deleted. if we had a list, it would help. we would know what not to buy and the exploiters would not be able to make huge amounts of gold. people would also be more out to report things, not hide the exploit. the devs will delete certain items but not others, but which ones? some pets are allowed while others are deleted. there so much of a gray area. people have been burned and will continue to get burned. we need list on what not to buy on patch page so there's no excuse for buying and then deleted.
What kind of story do you think most of these undocumented items have? lol
Who's to say - it's all shrouded in mystery!!! If it's all just, XYZ Seer/EM/GM went ape **** and created a bunch of cool items for his friends. I guess that's pretty boring then isn't it?
The truth often is pretty boring
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I don't know that I see the need for a list in the forums. Forums never were the best place for that kind of info in any case - partially why we built the wiki in the first place. Dating, naming/shaming EMs, that kind of thing we really can't 100% say for certain who made what when or where, no matter what is suspected. For myself, I'm happy just having that category listing in the wiki; any info helping track down where these were first spotted, or other info that is certain can be collected on the particular item's wikipage.
information of where these items were first spotted: "such and such EM handed it to me"
of course you can say 100 percent where it came from, if your looking for info of where these items originated.
even just naming the shard it was first seen on, and the year basically accuses that EM of corruption. which is why these items havent been listed, or allowed to be discussed in depth according to stratics tos.
I think my point has been made, its up to the stratics staff where they want to take the website.
Im all for just posting the information, but people have to realize the doors it opens up and that it doesnt mesh with current stratics policies.
i realize you want to support the wiki, and i see the value of it, but this "list" these types of items, if it was to exist on stratics at all, might be best if it was to be in a non-editable forum thread that wouldnt put the community at risk of providing information that would break stratics tos.
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I prefer Manticore's lists to the wiki personally.
I like having them both - the wiki is great for pictures and details on an item but Manti's list is a great quick way to look something up. Options are always good to have
it might be an appropriate time read over this discussion.
i still firmly believe that these types of items do not deserve documentation, and that the ability to present these items in any light on a public website does more harm than good. especially when anyone has the ability to add items to that documentation.
it only encourages and enables things like recent events.
As you can see from this post 2 months ago.
[Buying] - Undocumented and "Rogue" Items
i still firmly believe that these types of items do not deserve documentation, and that the ability to present these items in any light on a public website does more harm than good. especially when anyone has the ability to add items to that documentation.
it only encourages and enables things like recent events.
As you can see from this post 2 months ago.
[Buying] - Undocumented and "Rogue" Items
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Discussing an attempt to legitimize fraudulently created pixels in a game, ironically by some of the very people who were wholesale creating many of them for profit, isn't something I even want to read about to be honest. That's not what UO is about and this is/was an old thread. There are hundreds of posts like this one that show the mindset of some individuals who we now know didn't give a darned about the community or game at all, beyond the cash it put in their pocket at everyone else's expense.
My two cents: If such a list is created it should be used to track down and delete said items as well, not just "inform". Heck, maybe normal players should receive a "bounty" for helping staff locate and rid the land of these items. A real pirate hunt! Regular players who purchased one of these could turn them in themselves and not be left empty handed, or risk just that.
My two cents: If such a list is created it should be used to track down and delete said items as well, not just "inform". Heck, maybe normal players should receive a "bounty" for helping staff locate and rid the land of these items. A real pirate hunt! Regular players who purchased one of these could turn them in themselves and not be left empty handed, or risk just that.
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@Blackie Agree with what you said.
I'd really like the community to move on from this, and hopefully learn something from it. Its not my decision, or my website, so i have no control over the future treatment or "listing" of rogue EM items, as well as exploit items, however i do hope everyone can use whats occurred lately to learn what can actually happen.
People can and will abuse not just in game-systems, but also the use and display of information. I just hope a thoughtful decision can be made, taking what we've seen into consideration.
I'd really like the community to move on from this, and hopefully learn something from it. Its not my decision, or my website, so i have no control over the future treatment or "listing" of rogue EM items, as well as exploit items, however i do hope everyone can use whats occurred lately to learn what can actually happen.
People can and will abuse not just in game-systems, but also the use and display of information. I just hope a thoughtful decision can be made, taking what we've seen into consideration.
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Greetings everyone,
Please drop this issue, the person responsible has been removed from the game, houses taken and all his items confiscated. I realize there are alot of items out there that he altered to make them unique/rare. At this time I am not going to touch them but if you insist on making lists etc I will track every item down and delete them.
Please drop this issue, the person responsible has been removed from the game, houses taken and all his items confiscated. I realize there are alot of items out there that he altered to make them unique/rare. At this time I am not going to touch them but if you insist on making lists etc I will track every item down and delete them.
![DarkLotus[FL]](/data/avatars/m/170/170381.jpg?1462626048){kind=avatar}
Mesanna Like a Boss hehe I love it "At this time I am not going to touch them but if you insist on making lists etc I will track every item down and delete them."
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To me, the utility of such a list was NOT to legitimize the items, but rather for players to be able to make informed purchasing decisions and for Stratics staff to be able to know whether or not to allow particular sales threads. That is why this topic was allowed to stand for so long. We have no wish to legitimize illegal items, and in fact make every effort to keep such items off the forums--when we recognize them.
This topic is being locked for now. The Stratics staff will discuss internally what our strategy and position should be. Input may be directed to [email protected]. Please do not reopen this topic. Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.
This topic is being locked for now. The Stratics staff will discuss internally what our strategy and position should be. Input may be directed to [email protected]. Please do not reopen this topic. Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.
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