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My code comment was only for the smoke bomb check.Dude.
I agree with most of what you say... but please keep this discussion practical. The devs aren't going to rework all that code just for our shard.
Your complete revamp of armor is not changing the code in just one function...
Passive detect will make stealthers WANT to invest the points into stealth...
But dude... trust me when I say this: please keep the suggestions coming. If you can come up with something that makes everyone happy and addresses the issue at hand... we'll support it.
I wouldn't expect a complete armor overhaul for just Siege, it would have to be for all of Sosaria.
Passive detect is not an option. Countering someones 175 - 220 point investment with a zero point investment is unbalanced.
Further, whats to stop a guild of invisible detectors from standing in various places to passively reveal people as they stealth by? A mine field of skill less gankers is not balanced.
I will give more thought on the issue of incentives for raising stealth to Legendary though.
Truth is it really doesn't matter what changes they make to me just as long as it brings players back and new ones in. Doesnt matter what template is op and which one is weak as long as you have a real population you will have the desire to adapt and make the game fun. But why adapt to anything when only 5 people play here?
I will say this one last time and then I will no longer beat the dead horse...people will play against stealthers no matter how op some people think they are. But people WILL NOT play against people who runs around in blessed superman suits. Period. Doesnt matter if you have a different opinion or not cuz regardless of what you think, the numbers are at a all time low. This needs to change or siege will perish. I mean that literally.
I would gladly give up the entire stealth skill for a population. Would you give up your blessed superman suit? I want siege to survive and if killing stealth would make that happen then so be it.
I will say this one last time and then I will no longer beat the dead horse...people will play against stealthers no matter how op some people think they are. But people WILL NOT play against people who runs around in blessed superman suits. Period. Doesnt matter if you have a different opinion or not cuz regardless of what you think, the numbers are at a all time low. This needs to change or siege will perish. I mean that literally.
I would gladly give up the entire stealth skill for a population. Would you give up your blessed superman suit? I want siege to survive and if killing stealth would make that happen then so be it.
That IS a great incentive for the offensively minded.
They're complaining that minimal skill investment gives maximum defensive protection, but their solution is wrong, imo.
Everyone only gains skill to what is needed, that is nothing new.
100 Necro and 120 SS, no reason to go 120 necro, as the only benefit is to exorcise people from champ areas.
80 Herding is enough to herd anything herdable, in my experience. Why GM it?
80 Stealing is enough for sigil thieves. ( and can jewel up for dungeon steals )
70 Chivalry good enough?
etc...
To complain that people only invest what is needed in one skill, and ignore all the others is silly.
Perhaps we should petition EA raise the cap from 700 to 900? ( 920 vet )
Even then, everyone would cram more offense into template instead of Detect and Tracking, and we're back to square one, people wanting free use of a skill without the points invested.
I can't believe the MODS allowed it to go this long. Wow.....since this is a poll, MODS are somewhat relax on locking threads? Isn't this why the other threads got locked? Everyone insulting each other and not able to be civil.
This thread is dead........the result is the result, I don't believe there is more ppl who will be voting. Only insulting one another just to raise their egos.
Sorry, it doesn't not counter 175-220. 175 for sure, but the property diminishes if the stealther dedicates the skill points required.
Considering it does not reveal players who invest the proper skill points, Passive Detect really is an option. This would stop stealth from being abused and players who love the skill would still be given the option to get it's full benefits.
Win-Win.
Investing in the skill points would stop that.
Passive detect is an incentive for raising stealth to legendary.
Your input is appreciated and hopefully with it, we can come up with something even better than passive detect that is just as easy to implement.
This thread is the hottest topic on this forum.
I'm sorry it bothers you that we're discussing how to make this shard a better place.
If any insults hurt your feelings, ask the mods to clean them up without locking this great discussion. I'm sure you'd have no problem with that unless your only aim was to troll.
The community is all for giving everyone reasonable access to what you call "superman suits" for both faction and non-faction players. Yeah... I'd say we're giving up the advantage we've earned over the years. Especially since we started and still support that cause.
We all want things to be fair for everyone. We want people to have reasonable options to earn the items they need to compete in this item driven world. We also want things to be fair and fun for everyone.
When 80% of the population is stealthers, you have to wonder where all the non-stealthers are? Did they quit in disgust? Did they become stealthers just to adapt?
These changes will open the Siege doors for many new and old folks. RoTs no longer and issue, the broken game play is the only thing left standing in the way.
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Vaelix
Guest
I have a Gargoyle DS Macer Stealther on Prodo, with only Pots for Heals. (Where Passive Detect Is Functioning)
I basically Never die on the template, and have no trouble at all avoiding passive detect (As it only works if *YOU* walk when in their range, If you stand still they can walk right over you and not Reveal you)
Even on Prodo one of the most Popular and Deadly temps is STILL.. the NS DS Stealth Bok Char.
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Vaelix
Guest
Btw i run 100 Stealth and 2 Pieces of Verite Plate Non Mage Armor pieces.. and Still have no trouble at all against Passive Detect honestly.
I've even fought groups that have a Revealer *And* Passive Detect, with Shadow Jump Spams, its still extremely easy to get away from them. (And thats with ONLY Heal Potions to heal me)
I've even fought groups that have a Revealer *And* Passive Detect, with Shadow Jump Spams, its still extremely easy to get away from them. (And thats with ONLY Heal Potions to heal me)
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Førsaken
Guest
I honestly don't see why we continue these arguments. This shard is just full of bad players, end of story.
For everyone who opposed passive detect, welcome to being bad at this game and not knowing how to play.
For everyone who opposed passive detect, welcome to being bad at this game and not knowing how to play.
For everyone asking for passive detect, welcome to being bad at this game and not knowing how to play.
Fixed that for ya.
Again, I must disagree. You're telling me that stealthers need to invest the "proper" skill points, and detectors don't.
Why not flip this around? Be glad people aren't running 120 Stealth, take advantage of it and run the "proper" amount of Detect Hidden. Detecting 75 - 80 stealth is MUCH easier than detecting 120 stealth, the advantage is yours to lose.
The amazing part about all this is that it seems the only people complaining about stealth are the so called elite players (BFF). Don't you think that's kinda strange? You would think they of all people would be able to properly counter anything considering their greatness and whatnot.
I dont see an issue with only needing 175 skill for full stealth really (a bit low but not a big deal), but it shouldnt take 200 points to counter 175. And with the rate at which reveal works successfully, its not balanced. If at 200 points for detector, the 75 stealther was revealed 100% of the time, perfect, if at 175 total points of track/detect vs 175 points of stealth, it was something close to 50/50, i think that would be fine. Just the balance for skill needed, and success chance is a bit out
You can't counter every skill point for point because most skills have multiple uses and if you tried to implement a point for point system you would have a big mess in the end. I have 100 poison but you can counter it with a 20 gp cure pot with 0 points invested. There is no perfect system you just have to make the best of what we have and there are far more important issues that need fixing other than stealth. Let's go after the big fish perhaps?
Excellent response. Yes, items that counter skills is a valid argument.
We have many items availble that counter stealth as well.
No feelings hurt........not like yours and few others because players disagree with your passive detect. You result to insulting players because they have a difference in opinion.
I only state the obvious......how ridiculous you and few others are.
1.) You and BFF spend majority of your time on Atlantic.......keep playing there if you dont like Siege.
2.) Is there actually anyone still using stealth for PVP on Siege? Yes.....its BFF.
3.) How many times do we need to keep arguing about stealth? Yes, thats what it is. Just because players disagree with passive detect, they "suck at PVP" and etc etc. This is all I'm reading.........if you disagree with passive detect, you suck at PVP and belong on Trammy.
4.) It's quite funny how BFF talks about themselves and how they suck.....seeing that they are the main ones using Stealth on Siege for PVP.
5.) Last....I'm sure your enjoying this thread. You'll do anything for attention......even to post hundreds of cry threads about anything/or everything.
But you of all people know, that this isnt always viable.
You are red, how about I attack you in town, you chase me, i pop into stealth, what are you going to do? Cast EQ? not gonna work, Cast reveal? Unless you have detect, im gone anyway, or it wont reveal me. How about throwing a conflag pot? Hit an NPC, wack, i take ur loots. Same goes for all the area effect stuff, you are are not left with many options. Even if you had detect on and tracking at 100/100, you wouldnt be successful as often chasing me on a ninja, elf, 100 hide, 75 stealth. Even without ninja, only thing is I cant run, but I can go poof, and remount an ethy, and book for the hills to heal, and then come back for round two with you. Where we can rinse and repeat all night.
And to be honest there are some bigger issues, but if you dont think stealth is a major issue on siege, you are dreaming. Sure the PvP side of it, is not that big of an issue, but when people log in, and see 0 people in 4-5 hours of playing, they log out, and leave. Thats an issue. A big one. I cant count how many people have asked in gen chat, or alliance chat, or our NEW vent about where everyone is, and is it always this dead. That turns people away.
That's exactly how it's suppose to work if a player doesn't invest in the detect and tracking skill. Sounds like it was coded perfectly to me.
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Vaelix
Guest
Posts like these always *Somehow* get overlooked or Ignored, I wonder Why.
Currently, detect/tracking is ineffective at countering stealth.
Something needs to be done to make countering stealth more reasonable. 80% of the population wouldn't be using it if it wasn't over powered. Stealthers wouldn't be the only effective counter to stealthers if stealth wasn't over powered.
There is nothing more important than this issue. This is the hottest topic on this forum and rightly so.
When we're done frying this fish, we can talk about frying the next (smaller) fish on the line.
Why not flip it around? I did. You didn't support fixing detect hidden.
Now you're flip flopping?
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
No we actually have ran the template and own everyone with it....of all people we know how cheap and OP it is....so yes...we are the ones who know how stupid crazy it is....you put stealth in the hands of someone who slightly knows what there doing and they will never die....just because you cant compete with us or Sakey has made you butt sore in a past life or whatever...doesnt mean were wrong...it means we know what were talking about and you show how underdevloped you actually are as a pvper to actually admit passive detect shouldnt be impletmented as low hanging fruit...
Im sorry your horrible at this game and cant compete without yer easy button...i know it might be difficult at first....but try learning the game before you hate on the player
I do not need to be a stealther to counter other stealthers, it's the way i prefer to play the template, but its not the only way to be effective.
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Elmer Fudd
Guest
To be accurate it needs to say smoke bomb stealth with no chance of failure......LMAOHere you have it, UO 2010!
The Easy Button is all you need!
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Vaelix
Guest
Sadly this isnt far from the Truth..Here you have it, UO 2010!
The Easy Button is all you need!
A way to run away (Joystick)
And a Smoke Bomb Macro (Button)
And God-Mode is basically activated.
rolleyes:
detect hidden - hiding
tracking - stealth
poisoning - ninjitsu (any method of curing will leave the user visible far longer than you need to re-inflict, smoke bombs don't help too much if you're immediately revealed)
Minimum invested points to be able to stealth and smoke bomb reliably
hiding 100
stealth 80 (any less and you randomly fail even in leather armor)
ninjitsu 50
= 230
Minimum points you need to have invested to counter the 3 skills effectively
detect hidden 100
tracking 60 (tracking is boosted by detect, 60 tracking gives you a 60% chance to detect a GM hider + 120 stealther PER TRY that stays after a successful attempt, for the "minimal" build above it gives you a 70% chance per try)
poisoning 50 (give you greater poison, with a chance of deadly poison, it's really to delay hiding and force them to be visible to cure, but has to do enough damage to reveal someone at 100 hiding if they don't cure)
=210
Granted you can do without the poisoning as well, if you set a macro for select nearest mobile and attack selected, rush them with tracking, reveal and hold your macro, even if they attempt to re-hide it will reveal them from the damage, by the time they smoke bomb you can use detect again and do the same, it's just far easier with poisoning.
This is only for those who've invested over 50 points in ninjitsu as well, so those of us who have no ninjitsu can be effectively negated spending only 160 points. (only method of re-hiding is getting out of range).
I honestly don't see what the problem is, when i toss on tracking and detect i have no issue revealing and stealing from people, if anything detect and tracking are more overpowered than hiding and stealth, in that they can be used repeatedly on failure with no downside. (whereas failing at stealth is generally deadly) The only potential issue i see in pvp is it taking enough points to counter that the user would have to sacrifice either a lot of defense, or a lot of damage, thus making them easier to kill to non-detector pvpers, but that's obvious that you'd need to sacrifice something to counter someone else's skills, it would make 0 sense that 100 detect could counter 100 points in hiding, 120 points in stealth, and 50+ ninjitsu
tracking - stealth
poisoning - ninjitsu (any method of curing will leave the user visible far longer than you need to re-inflict, smoke bombs don't help too much if you're immediately revealed)
Minimum invested points to be able to stealth and smoke bomb reliably
hiding 100
stealth 80 (any less and you randomly fail even in leather armor)
ninjitsu 50
= 230
Minimum points you need to have invested to counter the 3 skills effectively
detect hidden 100
tracking 60 (tracking is boosted by detect, 60 tracking gives you a 60% chance to detect a GM hider + 120 stealther PER TRY that stays after a successful attempt, for the "minimal" build above it gives you a 70% chance per try)
poisoning 50 (give you greater poison, with a chance of deadly poison, it's really to delay hiding and force them to be visible to cure, but has to do enough damage to reveal someone at 100 hiding if they don't cure)
=210
Granted you can do without the poisoning as well, if you set a macro for select nearest mobile and attack selected, rush them with tracking, reveal and hold your macro, even if they attempt to re-hide it will reveal them from the damage, by the time they smoke bomb you can use detect again and do the same, it's just far easier with poisoning.
This is only for those who've invested over 50 points in ninjitsu as well, so those of us who have no ninjitsu can be effectively negated spending only 160 points. (only method of re-hiding is getting out of range).
I honestly don't see what the problem is, when i toss on tracking and detect i have no issue revealing and stealing from people, if anything detect and tracking are more overpowered than hiding and stealth, in that they can be used repeatedly on failure with no downside. (whereas failing at stealth is generally deadly) The only potential issue i see in pvp is it taking enough points to counter that the user would have to sacrifice either a lot of defense, or a lot of damage, thus making them easier to kill to non-detector pvpers, but that's obvious that you'd need to sacrifice something to counter someone else's skills, it would make 0 sense that 100 detect could counter 100 points in hiding, 120 points in stealth, and 50+ ninjitsu
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Vaelix
Guest
This is not even close to realistic.
There is a huge difference between stealth thieving and stealth pvp.
Those of you who list poisoning in your counters to stealth are absolutely clueless. The chance to reveal based on poison damage is extremely minimal, and considering the Fact that Greater Cure Pots can be spammed, along with Orange Petals and Unicorn Form (Which will remove Poison While in Stealth LOL) poison over all, has become almost completely useless, as an invested skill.
Here is the Realistic version of your Little Tactic..
Reveal > Hit with Macro > *Forced Smokebomb* > Reveal > *Already in animal form and half the screen away* > * Line of Sight Hide* > Reveal > *Smokebomb while maintaining animal form for speed* > Detect Timer > *Almost Completely offscreen again* > Tracking Runs out > You fail to track > You fail to detect > *Laughs*
And thats without a Single Shadow Jump, which can making track/detecting almost impossible if used right, Especially with you Failing 40% of the time.
Stop trying to make sense to them, Dante. You will not get through. they are stuck in a mindset and will not budge. You can tell them all the facts you want but they will not listen. they haven't been in situations as you describe. They have probably never been poisoned while stealthing away. Or being tracked and trying to escape. They don't know how easy it is. They are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Yes I know that part works, but NS is saying there is way more ways to deal with stealthers then just having detect and tracking. But really there isnt. Most area spells you cant cast if your red (or the gank is on, if it isnt already), in town you cant do jack, so really depending where you are, the ways to deal with a stealther are minimal. And by time you cast some of the area effect they are long gone. Esspecially if they go into animal form. So add ninja, and good luck killing anyone, even if they attack you. I have played some free shards, and when I was early on in the game, I would see a reds name off screen as they approached, and I had a recall off before they could touch me. I was in no situation to fight back at all skills less then 100.
Its very hard to die if you can effectively use stealth, unless you have 2 people on you. A detector with lowered offence power to kill you, and a ganker.
Even low stealthers with 175 points in hide and stealth, add ninja, and they can do 40 for DS, and then spam attacks, and have you at thier will. If you live through the attack, they simply pop a bomb, and walk around for a bit avoiding you, till mana is back up, and go for another try. Who is gonna make the mistake first, it certainly wont be the stealther.
Hell when I played stealth tamer for PvM, in GIL, we were raided by factions quiet a bit (this is 1.5-2 years ago), i could live longer then anyone else. I was always the last to die (unless we had some factioners with us, back when faction could be ally). But I wouldnt try and stay alive and escape, Id try and pick them off with a drag. Which generally got me killed due to a few on me. But thats with no ninja, and no bombs, and really no idea how to properly play one. But if I could survive longer than some that PvPed, even in a raid, thats too strong.
It doesnt have to be easy kills, just cant mean 95% survival rate, and 40% kill rate. Any other template have that?
well i think silver cost is the bigger issue here, cheaper gear = not so many stealth templates
then lets cry hard bout stealthing, i do agree that 75 stealth never fails and that seems a lil unfair considering i would fail at hiding 99.7 that needs to be re****ulated
then lets cry hard bout stealthing, i do agree that 75 stealth never fails and that seems a lil unfair considering i would fail at hiding 99.7 that needs to be re****ulated
I have to hand it to you, BR, you almost had me going like you have the rest of the forum going. Nice and pretty clever but I'm on to what you're doing. you see you come here crying and going to the extreme by asking something you know for certain you won't get by asking for something too extreme like passive detect. Meanwhile your real ambition is to make people think something less extreme is a compromise when all alone you didn't really want passive detect what you really want is to disallow the use of stealth all together while in animal form.
You're hoping that people will see that as a compromise while you get what your sights were really set on from the beginning.
Sorry but it aint gonna happen but nice try though.
Too bad a stealther can instantly hide and stealth away after being revealed.
Too bad by the time a detector can reveal again, the stealther can hide again too.
Too bad it doesn't work that way. This stealth problem needs to get fixed.
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Førsaken
Guest
QFT.
Give it up man, look who you're trying to get through...Nightstalker? Cheapsuit? John Conn? LOL?! When did these guys ever prove they were/are competent players?
When i use detect hidden on a floor tile (within my house and outside) i can reuse the skill every 6 seconds. When i click on an item like a treasure chest it takes 10 seconds until i can reuse the skill.
Iam at 100 detect hidden.
Setting up a macro in UOA runs fine using the timers mentioned before.
Iam at 100 detect hidden.
Setting up a macro in UOA runs fine using the timers mentioned before.
The measure of Nightstalker is not in his ability to fend off UOA macros, faction suits, and vent tactical attacks. I'm sorry you think competence is measured by ones ability to play a game. I am a very competent player, but I dont expect the incompetent to realize it.
Is it really worth the personal attacks because someone disagrees with your opinion of a video game? If thats the route you wish to go, you've bitten off more than you can chew. This is my fair warning.
You're not really presenting an argument. I read it as more of an FYI of your abilities.
Sure, YOU may be super awesome enough to pull off walking around in full plate armor, but not everyone can. The skills have to be able to be used by the lowest of the low too. Just because you can squeeze more value out of each one doesn't mean the average player can, which is why I just read the post as an FYI.
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Hugibear
Guest
Really you are a competent player? Are you the guy that I smoked at that spawn the other day. All I did was lightnin strike 3 times and a nerve strike, while applying a bandage, and using evade. Not one of those macros is a uoa macro. And you died in seconds, crying about me needing uoa. You are the one that needs help, that is why you called in a crew to help you out. Stop blaming other people because you willnt use what the game provides. That doesnt make us bad players, it just shows your foolishness.The measure of Nightstalker is not in his ability to fend off UOA macros, faction suits, and vent tactical attacks. I'm sorry you think competence is measured by ones ability to play a game. I am a very competent player, but I dont expect the incompetent to realize it.
You say detectors need to be improved, then don't support (or provide) any suggestions to improve them.
You say stealthers aren't over powered, then make suggestions to reduce their potency (through armor?)
You don't disagree with anyones opinion. You don't even know what you're opinion is.
Thank you for coming forth and displaying your ignorance, I would have spent too much effort on you were I to call out your name. You are dismissed.
Yes, I do know what "my are" opinion is. If you wish to remain willfully ignorant of it, be my guest. It is laid out for you in this thread, if you care to take a look.
S
Sunchicken
Guest
No this would be like only investing 80% of skills to magery and eval but still get full benifits. This would never happen without 50% of siege ****ting their pants.Don't be silly. Using skills that you haven't invested the points and/or gear into would be Trammelish, don't you think? That'd be like asking for passi... oh.
100 magery 100 eval= 83% skill needed to cap (cant do ****)
100 hiding 80 stealth= 82% skill needed to cap (full benifits) Couple it with ninja its way over powered. If you dont think it is your only sucessfull template is a stealther and you are trying to buff your online ego....
I mean **** people am i the only one that sees this discrepency?
With magery you can create food, summon earth elementals, gate around, see in the dark, heal, cure poison and blah blah 57 other things. Yes, you probably are the only one that sees the discrepancy.
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Førsaken
Guest
Aw, someones feelings get hurt? It's okay buddy...You're still bad, but it's okay!
The measure of Nightstalker is not in his ability to fend off UOA macros, faction suits, and vent tactical attacks. I'm sorry you think competence is measured by ones ability to play a game. I am a very competent player, but I dont expect the incompetent to realize it.
Is it really worth the personal attacks because someone disagrees with your opinion of a video game? If thats the route you wish to go, you've bitten off more than you can chew. This is my fair warning.
My point continues to be proven. Look who we're dealing with...
Feelings hurt? Never. To be hurt by someone, you have to first value them.Aw, someones feelings get hurt? It's okay buddy...You're still bad, but it's okay!
I left the post open ended to see your response. You are obviously of a pack mentality. It's unfortunate, you had potential, but you failed.
Dismissed.
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