*PvP needs some Attention*

[ShadowTrauma]

Damn it man... We need to get you a direct line to some developers ear (Bat-phone stlye). Let me pose an example to see if I am following you accurately.
Example: Armor Ignores effect is scaled by Tactics. For this attack, the defender has 0 Physical Resistance, but the attack only does 70%-90% normal damage. At 70-90 Tactics it does 70% damage, as you climb past 90 you gain more damage increase.

As I was typing that out I definately saw some instances where it could get tricky, but I see the potential. I'll wait till I hear more from you guys before I totally have to go and rethink my weapon special move review post... Jerk.

 

[puni666]

This thread has been a great read thus far, combat balance will always be an ongoing task for us. We currently have the armor revamp in the works as well as a re-balancing of all weapons. Details of those changes will be given as they are ready for public testing. Just wanted to poke my head in to let you know that we are listening.

A couple thoughts on the op:

Mysticism - Stoneform + Protection will be looked at.
Throwing - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance.
Archery - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance which will bring it up to throwing levels.
Melee Weapon Skills - Two handed weaponswill be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance and all weapon special moves are subject to change.

YES! a reason to play! If done right many unique options are going to open up! I can't wait to see your summary of changes.

 

[puni666]

​

I think it would be more appropriate to lower the cost of the special abilities associated with those skills, based on the skill points invested in them. (Though in the case of bushido, I think the mana cost is fine, but the abilities themselves need to be adjusted so that more than lightning strike is effective) Ninjitsu specials could use mana reduction and some adjustment.

Sure lower them, but make them have the cumulative mana cost timer for spamming them.

Adjusting specials to cost stamina and/or stamina/mana in some cases would be the best option though. And yes adjust refresh pots, divine fury. Doing this would give the Focus skill a real purpose for dexers. Not to mention giving a useful boost to Bushido's ironically used "confidence" ability. Do people even know it regenerates stamina, mana, and hit points when you successfully parry?

 

[puni666]

Damn it man... We need to get you a direct line to some developers ear (Bat-phone stlye). Let me pose an example to see if I am following you accurately.
Example: Armor Ignores effect is scaled by Tactics. For this attack, the defender has 0 Physical Resistance, but the attack only does 70%-90% normal damage. At 70-90 Tactics it does 70% damage, as you climb past 90 you gain more damage increase.

As I was typing that out I definately saw some instances where it could get tricky, but I see the potential. I'll wait till I hear more from you guys before I totally have to go and rethink my weapon special move review post... Jerk.

Armor Ignore should be based on the weapons base speed. 2s 25dmg, 2.25s-2.5s 30dmg, 2.75s-3.25s 35dmg, 3.5s-4s 40dmg, 4.5s-5s 45dmg. Greater reward for slower weapons. And give a bonus cap per swing level for GM lumber jacks wielding an Ax.

 

[Logrus]

Yet another random idea,
Polearms bonus hit chance versus mounted targets.

 

[Vexxed]

Yet another random idea,
Polearms bonus hit chance versus mounted targets.

How about Bonus Dmg vs Mounted Targets... but only if the guy with polearm is on foot. I'm trying to imagine what game mechanics would be necessary make a Long spear phalanx show up in UO heh. Gah that would be cool ! I'll take it another step and say how cool would it be if a shield wall was actually useful ??? Say if you have a certain number of partied or guild members within 1 tile they all receive 10% Damage Eater all or an increase to the resist cap of like 1 % per individual capping at 5% max.. (75% resist etc...) I don't know fun ideas though.

 

[Zigge[IMP]]

How about Bonus Dmg vs Mounted Targets... but only if the guy with polearm is on foot. I'm trying to imagine what game mechanics would be necessary make a Long spear phalanx show up in UO heh. Gah that would be cool ! I'll take it another step and say how cool would it be if a shield wall was actually useful ??? Say if you have a certain number of partied or guild members within 1 tile they all receive 10% Damage Eater all or an increase to the resist cap of like 1 % per individual capping at 5% max.. (75% resist etc...) I don't know fun ideas though.

Been wanting to play a "roman warrior"-like character for over a decade! Just give us a 1handed spear-like of weapon to match my bronze shield and leather tunic and I´m a happy centurion

 

[Cetric]

This thread has been a great read thus far, combat balance will always be an ongoing task for us. We currently have the armor revamp in the works as well as a re-balancing of all weapons. Details of those changes will be given as they are ready for public testing. Just wanted to poke my head in to let you know that we are listening.

A couple thoughts on the op:

Mysticism - Stoneform + Protection will be looked at.
Throwing - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance.
Archery - will be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance which will bring it up to throwing levels.
Melee Weapon Skills - Two handed weaponswill be adjusted with the total weapon re-balance and all weapon special moves are subject to change.

I may have missed it... but is the "total weapon rebalance" the next publish more than likely? I've been considering new templates and such recently, but if this is soon on the horizon i do not want to go with them just yet. That and its getting cold out... so i'm gunna need a reason to snuggle up to my laggy addiction again.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

With a lot of these extra ideas, I feel it might be a bit much.

I would just like certain weapons to be adjusted and not hit for 50 without using mana. Have others revamped and made useful.
I think the mana for specials is fine, you can't really go on stam with TR's and and all. I think just redoing the weps and adding skills
so that people won't be pigeon holed like they are now for a hand full of templates would make a huge difference.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

With a lot of these extra ideas, I feel it might be a bit much.

These are indeed just extra ideas. The Dev's have said they are listening so many of us are just taking the opportunity to bounce ideas back and forth on what we like, what we don't like, and what we would like to see, while we wait for their version to be published. I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly don't expect to see many of these "extra ideas" implemented any time soon if at all, but just maybe one of our crazy extra ideas might inspire them or help them to make a change. Most people posting here seem to be very rational, I would suspect they believe the same.

 

[Berethrain]

Why isn't cleansing winds being looked at? I remember when those faction aids came out that did all the things cleansing winds does and everyone said those were overpowered so they got nerfed. At least the aids were consumeables and required points to get.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Why isn't cleansing winds being looked at? I remember when those faction aids came out that did all the things cleansing winds does and everyone said those were overpowered so they got nerfed. At least the aids were consumeables and required points to get.

I don't want to assume anything, but one would assume that it is being looked at. a remove curse that doesn't matter what your karma is, a heal, and a cure all in one spell for a low mana cost and a pretty quick cast needs to be adjusted. Having 3 spells in one like that is absurd.

 

[Cetric]

Why isn't cleansing winds being looked at? I remember when those faction aids came out that did all the things cleansing winds does and everyone said those were overpowered so they got nerfed. At least the aids were consumeables and required points to get.

My god does cleansing winds need looked at as well, but i think people have gotten sick of trying to beat that horse.

 

[Berethrain]

My god does cleansing winds need looked at as well, but i think people have gotten sick of trying to beat that horse.

Yeah, a 3 second spell vs a 6 second bandage and bandages got nerfed. Don't really have a problem with the spell but if they're going to keep it i think it would only be "fair" to remove the timer from the faction aids.

 

[Cetric]

Yeah, a 3 second spell vs a 6 second bandage and bandages got nerfed. Don't really have a problem with the spell but if they're going to keep it i think it would only be "fair" to remove the timer from the faction aids.

Be nice if they removed one of the abilities from it. People spamming it is just annoying in crossheal mode because it removes

 

[Logrus]

I'd probably increase the cost of curing poison, maybe also of removing curse, but considering it is a 6th circle spell and can be interrupted I think its ok to do what it does. Just remember to Weaken/Feeblemind/Clumsy/Curse and Poison your target.

 

[Gorbs]

What about introducing diminishing returns on cleansing winds over a period of time? The mana cost would stay the same, but over, say, a 30 second period the primary target would receive 100% benefit the first time receiving it, would then receive 90% the benefit the second time, 80% the third, and then 70% any additional times? Someone would have to tinker with the numbers/durations there and decide if it's viable or would potentially be a crippling change.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

Remember back in the day when your fellow players had to have the "common sense (insert synonyms here)" to remove their own mortal and poison debuffs? I sure miss all those mage tactical plays that have been mostly removed:

1. Player gets poisoned. Player needs to cure and receive a heal from a teammate, or a teammate cures and player heals. Sometimes multiple coordinated teammates were involved. No need to worry now Cleansing Winds will "fix" that.
2. Player receives a Mortal Strike. Player needs to eat an apple or Remove Curse and get healed by a teammate. No need to worry now Cleansing Winds will "fix" that.
3. Player gets poisoned and receives a Mortal Strike! Far too exciting to explain... just spam Cleansing Winds and take care of it all.

I am tired of beating this horse; Cleansing Winds does far too many things, but it is here now and I suspect we need to live with it. Maybe it could be adjusted some more... I don't know. *The more Cleansing Wind casters in an encounter the more rediculous the spell gets, it makes balancing extremely tricky.* This topic constantly gets me stuck when I try and think of solutions, I hate nerfs.

My mage template of choice lacks Mysticism and I can't tell you how disheartening it is to be constantly reminded how "selfish" I am being, or how I could be doing everything and more (Purge) with Mysticism.

Bleh, even typing this out leaves me drained.

Edit: Gorbs might be on the right track.

 

[Berethrain]

Be nice if they removed one of the abilities from it. People spamming it is just annoying in crossheal mode because it removes

Yeah, I don't think one spell should remove curse and heal, nor really the bandages. If everyone has to use apples so can they. Though I noticed sometimes it takes a few apples to remove sleep. I think that sucks since sleep is a two second spell and apples have a timer. So not only can you fail to remove it and use 5 apples for 1 spell, they can just recast it in 2 seconds and you're stuck.

I'd probably increase the cost of curing poison, maybe also of removing curse, but considering it is a 6th circle spell and can be interrupted I think its ok to do what it does.

If you're referring to cleansing winds, the odds of interrupting a 3 second spell playing any template is slim already. Throw in sleep and and 45 dci good luck with that idea. If they're going to keep 3 spells in one, then they need to at least compensate with a longer cast timer.

Just remember to Weaken/Feeblemind/Clumsy/Curse and Poison your target.

Doesn't cleansing wind remove that all in one shot? Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems pointless.

 

[Logrus]

Cleansing winds removes them, but each effect it removes, reduces the amount it heals for after.
The more powerful effect the more the healing is reduced. (Lethal reduces the healing factor significantly, as does stacking curses, like strangle and mind rot).

Typically I play a scribe mage, and running up against someone with a mystic healer, is a pain, but as of yet I'm still managing to kill them. Its just a bit harder.

Mortal also prevents CW from healing.

But it is funny to hit someone with lethal spam, and they think CW gonna keep em alive, and they end up only healing for 14-18.

 

[Smokes To Much]

Doesn't cleansing wind remove that all in one shot? Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems pointless.

Nope, you're right.

Msytism and Throwing are in serious need of adjustment. Typical gaming company ploy, expansion includes OPed stuff in order to sell it, then after awhile it's brought back in line with existing stuff. But since no new expansions are coming anytime soon, if ever, I don't know if they'll get around to fixing some of these obvious problems.

 

[Smokes To Much]

Cleansing winds removes them, but each effect it removes, reduces the amount it heals for after.
The more powerful effect the more the healing is reduced. (Lethal reduces the healing factor significantly, as does stacking curses, like strangle and mind rot)

Yeah, but it does remove them all, then throw a quick GH and np.

Just compare the time to cast all those curses/debuffs vs a CW and GH.

 

[Berethrain]

Cleansing winds removes them, but each effect it removes, reduces the amount it heals for after.
The more powerful effect the more the healing is reduced. (Lethal reduces the healing factor significantly, as does stacking curses, like strangle and mind rot)​

I get what you're saying but its a 3 second spell. I'm unsure why it would matter how much reduced healing it does when it removes everything and recast 3 seconds later? It shouldn't even heal after removing the effects to begin with.​

 

[Speaking the Truth]

​

I get what you're saying but its a 3 second spell. I'm unsure why it would matter how much reduced healing it does when it removes everything and recast 3 seconds later? It shouldn't even heal after removing the effects to begin with.​

It's less than 3 seconds.

Also Logrus, that solution of casting first circle is null and void when said player is smart enough to either go in protection and heal, OR go in prot curse themselves then go out so first circle no longer works. I have to disagree saying it's fair for 20 mana and that quick of a cast to do so much. Unlike chiv you don't need karma it's the most potent heal in game too. Also curses don't reduce it enough. It can remove every curse under the sun poison and even heal a little bit. It needs to be toned down, either getting rid of that many spells tied in one, or making its mana cost like spellweaving where after lmc its like 30+mana.

As already mentioned its stupid how dumbed down pvp has become. This isn't wow it shouldn't be 1 spell takes care of everything. This game should require teamwork in a sense that one person can't do everything for you, you should have to help yourself even a little bit. Not having to apple, cure, or heal...give me a break.

 

[Logrus]

Cleansing Winds is a powerful spell. I'd recommend a tweak to the heal effectiveness after removing the bad effects. It is a 6th circle cast time. In -no- circumstance in caster vs caster combat should one of those casters be pulling off consistent 6th circle spells without Protection on. If you are playing ANY casting template, and someone not in protection is chaining 6th circle spells you are doing something wrong, that has absolutely nothing to do with what the spell does.

If you are any form of dexer/archer/thrower, deadly poison OR mortal can effectively counter CW spam, and force them to burn pots or their healing stone, OR use magery spells to heal. In a Mystic VS Dexer the only way they should be getting off a CW is when you miss.


If a player you are fighting has a healer, casting Cleansing Winds on them, it is a -very- powerful support spell.

I think that is where the adjustment should be targeted in this effectiveness. But as a 6th circle spell it should be quite powerful. Investing 2~ seconds (which is 2 full swings at max swing rate) without being hit by weapon or spell, is a completely deserved benefit. Not to mention that since the curing, curse removal, and healing scale by skill, its a tempered investment.

Mysticism provides a limited instant self heal, and a slow, but powerful targeted heal/cleanse.
Magery provides a quick small heal, and a slightly slower large heal, but cleanse and heal are separate activities.


It is a 2~ second spell, if you aren't hitting for 3 seconds as a caster, you are doing something wrong. If you are a dexer @ max swing speed 2.5 seconds is 2 full swings. If you have hit fireball or magic arrow on your weapon, thats an extra hit 1 second after your physical hit lands. If you bleed, thats a free damage tick every few seconds.
Mortal makes that 2~ second attempt at healing, a 2~ second remove curse. Lethal Poison, makes that 3 second attempt, a Cure and a Mini heal.


In ANY 1v1 circumstance, if your opponent can constantly cast cleansing winds to heal themself, you must be doing something wrong.


In a cross heal situation it is quite powerful, and effectiveness does increase with the number of healers. But if you attack a guy with a bunch of mystic healers, and you have a group of similar numbers, your group must be doing something wrong.


I would say that toning down specifically the heal after removing curses or increasing the difficulty of removing the curses may be the way to go, but beyond that I really don't see the headache

 

[Berethrain]

If you are any form of dexer/archer/thrower, deadly poison OR mortal can effectively counter CW spam,

It's not effective at all, that is the point. There is no other template or skill that allows a person to use a 2-3 second spell to remove everything and heal. No matter what circle it is. Aside from this, people run, they're not going to sit there and let you disrupt them from healing. The difference being a regular mage would take several spells to remove poison and heal. A dexer of any form will require a combination of aids, apples, or pots to do the same.

Also throw in sleep, which slows you down and removes the active combat vs person you're fighting in a couple seconds, and 45 dci there's not going to be any problem casting cleansing winds. It isn't that people aren't trying to interrupt the spell or are doing something wrong. When a broad spectrum of templates are facing the same problem against 1 template, it's not likely it's everyone elses fault.

 

[Logrus]

It's less than 3 seconds.

Also Logrus, that solution of casting first circle is null and void when said player is smart enough to either go in protection and heal, OR go in prot curse themselves then go out so first circle no longer works. I have to disagree saying it's fair for 20 mana and that quick of a cast to do so much. Unlike chiv you don't need karma it's the most potent heal in game too. Also curses don't reduce it enough. It can remove every curse under the sun poison and even heal a little bit. It needs to be toned down, either getting rid of that many spells tied in one, or making its mana cost like spellweaving where after lmc its like 30+mana.

As already mentioned its stupid how dumbed down pvp has become. This isn't wow it shouldn't be 1 spell takes care of everything. This game should require teamwork in a sense that one person can't do everything for you, you should have to help yourself even a little bit. Not having to apple, cure, or heal...give me a break.

Protection -> Is not a mysticism spell.
(And if they are in prot the cast time of CW increases, and if you're not doing more damage than they are healing with spells in protection you must be doing something wrong.)
(Harm, Poison, Curse, Lightning, All provide good interrupt alternatives to first circle debuffs)


Though I would favor a mana cost increase, to CW considering the healstone, is mana free once summonned. Or maybe have it cost more mana to remove curses/cure. May be a nice step.


CW by itself, is powerful, not rediculously so. Combining it with Prot/Stoneform/Consumables, then it becomes a very powerful ability. But Stoneform/Prot and consumables are things that are already kinda borked so I cant exactly support laying all that on CW's head, when players can still run around with 0 skill ability to heal, and still survive well.

 

[Logrus]

It's not effective at all, that is the point. There is no other template or skill that allows a person to use a 2-3 second spell to remove everything and heal. No matter what circle it is. Aside from this, people run, they're not going to sit there and let you disrupt them from healing. The difference being a regular mage would take several spells to remove poison and heal. A dexer of any form will require a combination of aids, apples, or pots to do the same.

Also throw in sleep, which slows you down and removes the active combat vs person you're fighting in a couple seconds, and 45 dci there's not going to be any problem casting cleansing winds. It isn't that people aren't trying to interrupt the spell or are doing something wrong. When a broad spectrum of templates are facing the same problem again 1 template, it's not likely it's everyone elses fault.

Sleep lasts between 1-3 seconds unless you don't have decent resist spells. And has an immunity duration after. (Don't know what sleep has to do with the CW issue other than it allows the mystic to get one off guaranteed)

Running is EVERYBODY's defense. And any caster has to stop to cast, so if they are running they are neither defending nor attacking.

Bandages -> Healing on the Run -> Trade off, Use Other Consumables to remove curses, 4-8 seconds time
Cleansing Winds -> Healing Everything ->~2.5 sec Longest Casted Heal time in Game by 1 second, Interruptible
GHeal -> Heals for 6-10 Less than an reduced CW , 1 second less cast time, Interruptible
Lesser Heal -> Heals for 9-18 .5 second cast time, Interruptible
Spirit Speak -> Heals for 20-39 Same cast time as GHeal, Heals Through Poison, Mortal, Interruptible
Close Wounds -> Heals for up to 40, Cast time between 1-1.5 seconds, Interruptible
Heal Stone -> Instant Healing, Similar to potion, Up to 300 HP total healing. 15 Sec Recharge to max effectiveness. (Invokes Heal Pots Cooldown)


If you don't hit a mage in 2.5 seconds, his 2 heal combo will heal for more than Cleansing Winds
If you don't hit a Paladin in 2.5 seconds, his 2 heal combo will heal for more than Cleansing Winds

If you poison a mage and dont hit him for 2.5 seconds, his cure/heal combo will heal for more than cleansing winds
If you poison a paladin and don't hit him for 2.5 secodns, his cure/heal will heal for more than cleansing winds.

If you mortal a mage, he will be unable to heal for 6 seconds unless using a consumable.
If you mortal a Paladin and don't hit him for 2.5 seconds, he will heal for more than cleansing winds
If you mortal a mystic and don't hit him for 2.5 seconds, he will be able to CW and then heal himself


2+ Mystics, healing 1 person, IS extremely powerful. Simply because CW effectiveness is realized with multiple castings. I think this could be addressed by one ore more tweaks, to mana cost, lower effectiveness after debuff removal, and maybe even that diminished returns mentioned, though probably less so that one. Due to the fact that in 1v1 CW has more limitations, much (not all) of the difficulty can be dealt with by adaptive playstyle.

 

[Berethrain]

Sleep lasts between 1-3 seconds unless you don't have decent resist spells. And has an immunity duration after. (Don't know what sleep has to do with the CW issue other than it allows the mystic to get one off guaranteed)

That is the point. From what you're telling us all we have to do is interrupt them. No kidding? You mean we actually have to attack them to win? NO WONDER things were going so poorly....

Aside from running being EVERYBODY's defense, not EVERYBODY can cure, remove curse and heal at the same time. Alot of other templates would have to stop and cast in the same time they did or stop and swing for the matter. But in comparison to other casting skills, they would have to stop and cast 2 or 3 times to do the same thing as cleansing winds. Plus the point being interrupting isn't just as simple as saying, that's all you have to do and if you're not doing it, you're clearly doing something wrong.

But for arguments sake lets go over the rest.

Bandages -> Healing on the Run -> Trade off, Use Other Consumables to remove curses, 4-8 seconds time

This isn't a trade off. Mystics can use other consumeables also. Bandages do not cure stacked effects. 1 bandage at max dex is a 6 second heal time. 1 cleansing wind clears everything and heals in 2.5 seconds with a small chance of interruption. A dexer has a of interrupting and a chance of missing, with some templates also having to stop just to swing taking a second or two. And those who don't have an increased delay in swing speed.

So which is better 12 second heals to cure poison and heal after say a mortal? Or being mortaled and curing, removing curse, and healing in 2.5 seconds.
Sure we could all just play mystics but then whats the point of playing?

Cleansing Winds -> Healing Everything ->~2.5 sec Longest Casted Heal time in Game by 1 second, Interruptible

It has the effects of three spells with only being 1 second longer. To cast a greater heal is what 1.5 seconds? and you'd still need the extra casting time to cure poison (with a chance of failing not only by interruption but just not curing the poison) and remove curse. Defineately not a trade off.


This pretty much applies to all the other healing except the healing stone which is mysticism anyways.

f you don't hit a mage in 2.5 seconds, his 2 heal combo will heal for more than Cleansing Winds
If you don't hit a Paladin in 2.5 seconds, his 2 heal combo will heal for more than Cleansing Winds

Doesn't account for the poison or mortal, curse etc in comparison to CW. Not the same. Doesn't account for healing stone.

If you poison a mage and dont hit him for 2.5 seconds, his cure/heal combo will heal for more than cleansing winds
If you poison a paladin and don't hit him for 2.5 secodns, his cure/heal will heal for more than cleansing winds.

Still doesn't account for other debuffs. Still have healing stone to compensate.

If you mortal a mage, he will be unable to heal for 6 seconds unless using a consumable.
If you mortal a Paladin and don't hit him for 2.5 seconds, he will heal for more than cleansing winds
If you mortal a mystic and don't hit him for 2.5 seconds, he will be able to CW and then heal himself

Paladin would still hvae to remove curse, cleanse by fire, and close wounds to do the same as CW.

Mage pretty much screwed in comprasion to the other two unless using an apple.

Mystic he will CW which heals him at the same time and remove all other effects.

 

[Logrus]

If you are letting a mage constantly chain explosion ebolt on you, that's not an imbalance for magery. If he gets one off every 10 seconds or so and has to whittle you down with faster spells, thats tactics. If a mystic is chaining cleansing winds on you, that is the same thing as a mage chaining explosion or ebolt. Same cast time.

If your playstyle is allowing that, its completely your fault. Spend some time mage dueling and brush up.

About the only thing CW provides real power to is a mage in protection, and if he isnt also in stone form, then its just a matter of time before he's down.

CW is powerful when they can get it off. If you are letting em get it off, outside of protection, thats your fault.

The best way to fight any caster with a dexer is a fast weapon with a delayed spell effect proc (magic arrow or fireball). The delay provides an extra interrupt. So there's .25 seconds between the fire damage, and the next swing. Even if you hit every other swing you force the victim to time their casting PERFECTLY to get their CW off.

As I said, 1v1 CW is not as big a deal as you make it out to be. When its being used to heal somebody else, its much more powerful. Maybe treating all non-self targeted heals as secondaries so that there's a power reduction in additon to increasing the debuff removal costs, would curb that issue. Otherwise you can just either take poison curing off or curse removal off, and call mystic healing immitation mages.

Side Notes:
One bandage at Max Dex = 4 seconds. @ 120 there's a chance to remove poison/bleed and then heal. @ 120 healing heals for 72 HP unless hit hard enough to slip.

Healing stone takes 5 seconds to recast. It also has a 15 second recharge time while it recovers so if it is used twice in a row it heals for less.
Heals stone also initiates the Heal Potion cooldown.

Cleansing Winds will not heal if mortal is removed.

Curing Poison with heal stone is not guaranteed, and costs points for failing.
So using mysticism only theres a balance between Trying to curing using CW or needing to cure and forcing use of a consumable. (Healing stone is a renewable skill based consumable in this case)

 

[Cetric]

If you are letting a mage constantly chain explosion ebolt on you, that's not an imbalance for magery. If he gets one off every 10 seconds or so and has to whittle you down with faster spells, thats tactics. If a mystic is chaining cleansing winds on you, that is the same thing as a mage chaining explosion or ebolt. Same cast time.

If your playstyle is allowing that, its completely your fault. Spend some time mage dueling and brush up.

About the only thing CW provides real power to is a mage in protection, and if he isnt also in stone form, then its just a matter of time before he's down.

CW is powerful when they can get it off. If you are letting em get it off, outside of protection, thats your fault.

The best way to fight any caster with a dexer is a fast weapon with a delayed spell effect proc (magic arrow or fireball). The delay provides an extra interrupt. So there's .25 seconds between the fire damage, and the next swing. Even if you hit every other swing you force the victim to time their casting PERFECTLY to get their CW off.

As I said, 1v1 CW is not as big a deal as you make it out to be. When its being used to heal somebody else, its much more powerful. Maybe treating all non-self targeted heals as secondaries so that there's a power reduction in additon to increasing the debuff removal costs, would curb that issue. Otherwise you can just either take poison curing off or curse removal off, and call mystic healing immitation mages.

Side Notes:
One bandage at Max Dex = 4 seconds. @ 120 there's a chance to remove poison/bleed and then heal. @ 120 healing heals for 72 HP unless hit hard enough to slip.

Healing stone takes 5 seconds to recast. It also has a 15 second recharge time while it recovers so if it is used twice in a row it heals for less.
Heals stone also initiates the Heal Potion cooldown.

Cleansing Winds will not heal if mortal is removed.

Curing Poison with heal stone is not guaranteed, and costs points for failing.
So using mysticism only theres a balance between Trying to curing using CW or needing to cure and forcing use of a consumable. (Healing stone is a renewable skill based consumable in this case)

I would never consider CW an issue in 1v1 pvp except for when protection is concerned. CW is an issue in crosshealing. There was a time when crosshealing could be a game of tactic with mixed in poisons and mortals vs. remove curses and cures. Now its a one button fix all. Now when you consider a big group of mystics, doing it in a party, its downright a joke.

Hell, say there are no dexers in sight and mortals aren't an option. The fact itheals a bit, cures a poison, and still will remove a curse is horrendous.

In one regard i hope you are right, that a protection-stone form adjustment will curb its niceness(start fizzling the healers)



Protection should just have a "pool" like magic reflect, you take x amount of damage and it goes off, and unable to reapply for x amount of time. Maybe drop something more drastic than some physical resist as well.

 

[Logrus]

And I comp

I would never consider CW an issue in 1v1 pvp except for when protection is concerned. CW is an issue in crosshealing. There was a time when crosshealing could be a game of tactic with mixed in poisons and mortals vs. remove curses and cures. Now its a one button fix all. Now when you consider a big group of mystics, doing it in a party, its downright a joke.

And I completely agree with that. So a fix targeted at that issue (crosshealing) without screwing it for a mystic using it on themselves.

Maybe decrease effectiveness with range from caster. Increase mana cost for removing debuffs. Or some other solution targeted to that area.

But a mystic devoting 240 points in their skills and pulling of a 6th circle spell, deserves some bang for their buck at least on themself.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

I would never consider CW an issue in 1v1 pvp except for when protection is concerned. CW is an issue in crosshealing. There was a time when crosshealing could be a game of tactic with mixed in poisons and mortals vs. remove curses and cures. Now its a one button fix all. Now when you consider a big group of mystics, doing it in a party, its downright a joke.

Hell, say there are no dexers in sight and mortals aren't an option. The fact it heals a bit, cures a poison, and still will remove a curse is horrendous.

I think Cetric summed up my overly emotional post more efficiently.

And I completely agree with that. So a fix targeted at that issue (crosshealing) without screwing it for a mystic using it on themselves.

Maybe decrease effectiveness with range from caster. Increase mana cost for removing debuffs. Or some other solution targeted to that area.

But a mystic devoting 240 points in their skills and pulling off a 6th circle spell, deserves some bang for their buck at least on themself.

I think what you said about Cleansing Winds is perfectly reasonable and a crosshealing focus is the ideal way to look at a fix. I really think your range suggestion so far is the best approach, because it would place more emphasis on situational awareness and tactics without hurting its self use as much as some other suggestions. Possibly tweak the heal or mana values, but definately place more effort on reducing the effectiveness of crosshealing.

 

[puni666]

Protection should just have a "pool" like magic reflect, you take x amount of damage and it goes off, and unable to reapply for x amount of time. Maybe drop something more drastic than some physical resist as well.

How long have I been saying that lol? And it should benefit the class it's originated from the most. Higher damage pool for the more skill points you have invested in Magery based skills. Mage/Med/Eval/Inscribe should all affect it like they do Magic Reflect.

Another good idea I saw (not sure if it was Logrus or not), but when you're in stone form no status can affect you. Be it positive or negative. That might render it completely pointless to cast though :/.

 

[Logrus]

Might be nice if protection worked like Magic reflection with a pool. It could even begin recharging when not being hit.

Stone form should render immunity to debuffs, and buffs.
Maybe also breakable or something to that effect though that would be kinda unique to stone form so maybe not the best route. Could be some interesting mechanics put in to play, like adjusting resists. Stone form should probably be vulnerable to cold.

 

[Berethrain]

If you are letting a mage constantly chain explosion ebolt on you, that's not an imbalance for magery. If he gets one off every 10 seconds or so and has to whittle you down with faster spells, thats tactics. If a mystic is chaining cleansing winds on you, that is the same thing as a mage chaining explosion or ebolt. Same cast time.

If your playstyle is allowing that, its completely your fault. Spend some time mage dueling and brush up.

About the only thing CW provides real power to is a mage in protection, and if he isnt also in stone form, then its just a matter of time before he's down.

CW is powerful when they can get it off. If you are letting em get it off, outside of protection, thats your fault.

The best way to fight any caster with a dexer is a fast weapon with a delayed spell effect proc (magic arrow or fireball). The delay provides an extra interrupt. So there's .25 seconds between the fire damage, and the next swing. Even if you hit every other swing you force the victim to time their casting PERFECTLY to get their CW off.

As I said, 1v1 CW is not as big a deal as you make it out to be. When its being used to heal somebody else, its much more powerful. Maybe treating all non-self targeted heals as secondaries so that there's a power reduction in additon to increasing the debuff removal costs, would curb that issue. Otherwise you can just either take poison curing off or curse removal off, and call mystic healing immitation mages.

Side Notes:
One bandage at Max Dex = 4 seconds. @ 120 there's a chance to remove poison/bleed and then heal. @ 120 healing heals for 72 HP unless hit hard enough to slip.

Healing stone takes 5 seconds to recast. It also has a 15 second recharge time while it recovers so if it is used twice in a row it heals for less.
Heals stone also initiates the Heal Potion cooldown.

Cleansing Winds will not heal if mortal is removed.

Curing Poison with heal stone is not guaranteed, and costs points for failing.
So using mysticism only theres a balance between Trying to curing using CW or needing to cure and forcing use of a consumable. (Healing stone is a renewable skill based consumable in this case)​

It is very easy to create scenarios to side step that cleansing winds not only cures and heals, it also removes curse(not just mortal). There is no template that does all 3 in the same casting speed or mana for that matter. No one mentioned them chaining it over and over, it's the fact that they can do it at all that is the problem. Especially, in groups or protection. It is simple that you will not always interrupt a 2.5s spell. If so, no one would be playing a mage, mystic, etc.

As far as the 4 seconds, you are right. Though at 120 anatomy and 120 healing, the range is 43-70 hp. And if you're hit 19 points by another player it is reduced.

The healing stone has hp potential up to 300 points. So it doesnt really matter about the 5 second delay to recast, it gives plenty of reuse despite deminished return every 2 seconds.

It does need tweaked to either eat more mana, remove one of the abilities, or a timer of some sort.




​

 

[Berethrain]

Oh and I forgot, cleansing winds delay is 1.75 seconds and a weapons quickest speed is 1.25

 

[CovenantX]

oh don't forget Mysticism can't be over-casted =X

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Logrus.
The fact that you are saying its balanced that it can do three spells in one makes me question your pvp ability. If you're being honest then you would acknowledge having those 3 spells wrapped in one isn't insane, you're just being bias or trolling.

Also since you want to make up situations, what about a mystic who is wearing + resist jewels? Then how would you go about that?

Also I play with solo or with 1-2 others. How can you do anything when you're heavily outnumbered, and the other side has a lot of mystics and they just cast one spell over and over. Every time they cast it, I have to stop to recast curse, and by the time I go to cast anything else, its removed and a rinse and repeat is in effect. So yes it's nice that you think I should just use poison and harm and all this other stuff, but by the time you're casting your second spell they are removing everything and you have to start over. Also if you try to mana vamp them it gets to a point where if you're both low on mana it takes 24 mana for mana vamp and the mystic needs much less to heal, so even stealing his mana he still needs less mana to function than you do to cast your 7th circle and leech his ~12 mana to cast his heal.

Also when you're talking about talking about disrupting the mystic, on top of them being able to bug themselves, or go in prot, what about other things. You're acting like it's impossible to for them get this spell off. What about saying casting focus and inscribe on a mystic, now 17% of the time this spell is going off no matter what you're doing. What about if you get to close and they weapon hit you and hit fireball goes off, now they can get another CW off.

Plain and simple, it's too good with a remove curse that doesn't matter about your karma it never fails, a powerful cure, and a powerful heal. Perhaps if it could fail like apples could instead of removing 7 things, a poison and still healing some I'd be less likely to complain about it.

I've pvp'd for 15 years I know pvp mechanics and to say other players are doing something wrong...well clearly you're not fighting with a small group or solo vs large numbers, because you would never kill someone if they are being healed by the one stop shop healing spell. Even 1v1 they can toggle prot CW and toggle prot again.

Honestly you should never kill a mystic on a scribe, and if you are doing that, then the sad simple truth is that you're fighting D league players.

 

[Capt.E]

Multi-Mystic mages are maddening. The focused Mage should kill a single mystic though. But that is another topic. Cleansing winds IMHO should either act as a cure(not arch cure) and only cure with 0 HP increase. I'm fine with it working like remove curse also, but it also should not give HPs. It would be nice to see something like an enchant from cleansing winds that lasts 4 seconds. If another is dropped then you get 75% HP on second winds. At least Mage mystic groups will have to coordinate heals, which means groups can begin dumping on the cleansing guy. Just my 2 gp.

P.S. I went pretty conservative on times and percentages because it seems like when we get a nerf it's way overboard at first and it takes years to balance it out.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

I Primarily play(ed) UO for pvp for the last 12+ years (not so much before then), and I have recently comeback from a 5-6 month break, (account's were NEVER inactive) and pvp is the same as It was when I left... not good.



My question - Why are these skills still overpowered, and the only skills you see active in pvp anymore ?

it's killing the entire pvp aspect of UO because it lacks creativity and everyone you fight is the same.

Mysticism - Overpowered Defensively : Fix Stoneform + Protection... and cleanse winds needs to be slightly tweaked as well. Imo Remove either the Cure OR the Remove Curse from this spell, and make the spell cast time the same as Magery - Greater Heal (doing this will make cleanse winds a more reliable Mystic heal, that doesn't require you to have magery as a mandatory back-up.

Throwing - Overpowered Offensively : the Damage OR the Speed are in need of reduction.

Poisoning - Overpowered Defensively : Remove the passive Cure effect, if you want this USE ORANGE PETALS.

Archery - <--these were complained about being Overpowered but really weren't too bad... but guess what... they nearly don't exist anymore, because Throwers are in town.

Melee Weapon Skills - Only used because of Disarm, Deathstrike, Nervestrike, & Poisoning : Fix this please?

The damage on most of these weapons need slight adjusting upwards, and two handed weapons need to have at least 30% more damage than its one-handed counterpart. (to make up for the loss of consumables & the loss of stats from an off-hand shield.)


Chivalry - Divine Fury used to restore full stamina, why was this changed ? As a mana-consuming spell it should be as good OR better than a penalty-less Refresh Potion. (making Chivalry more skill level dependable instead of karma dependable was a step in the right direction)


Consumables : people rely too heavily on these items, and some make pvp extremely annoying. increasing potion weight was not an effective solution IMO.

Heal potions - Cooldown Fair = balanced.

Cure potions - no cooldown = *comic bubble* Overpowered! (at least add a cooldown after a successful cure, like apples with their remove curse.)

Refresh Potions - I can't think of why these are overpowered, because any form of dexer really will not survive if they do not have stamina. reliant I know, but this is fair.

Enchanted Apples - 60 second cooldown is not triggered unless a remove curse is successful. fair but it still, nearly lessens the use of having chivalry on your template.

Remove

1) Weapon Special Moves now require Weapon Skill and Tactics of appropriate skill levels.
(i.e., 70 in each skill for primary weapon special moves, 90 in each skill for secondary weapon special moves).


Edit : change the above to require Only weapon skill 70-90+ for primary/secondary as it was pre-publish 46.

2) Players Can no longer stack using a weapon special move and casting a spell or activating a skill ability

If you do not agree with something I have said in this feel free to point out the flaws in it.

I'm sure there are other things I could suggest, but what kind of things would others like to see added/changed for the better of UOs Pvp?

Huh?

Your list of what you think is overpowered and only what you see being played is basically a full and diverse list of what is available. Archers/melee warriors/throwers/mystics. What is your point?

I did not have time to read the entire thread but based purely on your OP I would say that you are another frustrated old school mage that whines because he does not want to adapt. You miss being able to play a pure mage toggling warrior-like special moves like candy? Rofl, talk about unbalanced and wrong. It was a fair and long overdue nerf my friend. Deal with it.

The only pvp templates you left out were old school mages and tamers. So it looks to me like there is a nice diversity of pvp templates. And I dont think anyone thinks pvp tamers are underpowered so you simply have mage issues my friend and dont wanna play a mystic mage maybe? How about a necro? They are still very powerful and you see enough of them at the gate and spawns.

*shakes head*

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Logrus.
The fact that you are saying its balanced that it can do three spells in one makes me question your pvp ability. If you're being honest then you would acknowledge having those 3 spells wrapped in one isn't insane, you're just being bias or trolling.

Also since you want to make up situations, what about a mystic who is wearing + resist jewels? Then how would you go about that?

Also I play with solo or with 1-2 others. How can you do anything when you're heavily outnumbered, and the other side has a lot of mystics and they just cast one spell over and over. Every time they cast it, I have to stop to recast curse, and by the time I go to cast anything else, its removed and a rinse and repeat is in effect. So yes it's nice that you think I should just use poison and harm and all this other stuff, but by the time you're casting your second spell they are removing everything and you have to start over. Also if you try to mana vamp them it gets to a point where if you're both low on mana it takes 24 mana for mana vamp and the mystic needs much less to heal, so even stealing his mana he still needs less mana to function than you do to cast your 7th circle and leech his ~12 mana to cast his heal.

Also when you're talking about talking about disrupting the mystic, on top of them being able to bug themselves, or go in prot, what about other things. You're acting like it's impossible to for them get this spell off. What about saying casting focus and inscribe on a mystic, now 17% of the time this spell is going off no matter what you're doing. What about if you get to close and they weapon hit you and hit fireball goes off, now they can get another CW off.

Plain and simple, it's too good with a remove curse that doesn't matter about your karma it never fails, a powerful cure, and a powerful heal. Perhaps if it could fail like apples could instead of removing 7 things, a poison and still healing some I'd be less likely to complain about it.

I've pvp'd for 15 years I know pvp mechanics and to say other players are doing something wrong...well clearly you're not fighting with a small group or solo vs large numbers, because you would never kill someone if they are being healed by the one stop shop healing spell. Even 1v1 they can toggle prot CW and toggle prot again.

Honestly you should never kill a mystic on a scribe, and if you are doing that, then the sad simple truth is that you're fighting D league players.

No offense bud but if your point of view is always from "How can you do anything when you're heavily outnumbered?" you really should not be trying to rationalize anything. Templates/Skills should not be designed or changed from that point of view period.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

No offense bud but if your point of view is always from "How can you do anything when you're heavily outnumbered?" you really should not be trying to rationalize anything. Templates/Skills should not be designed or changed from that point of view period.

Oh there should be one spell that coddle people? Please explain to me how a cast that is less than 2 seconds that has 3 functions rolled into one is balanced?
There use to be a time when pvp required tactics and team work, this has long since passed. No you can cast one spell(especially when you outnumber your opponent) and you can't kill the other team. I know you play mystics and throwers(and you're bad on both and always in a zerg) so you don't like the idea of them fixing things to make them on an even playing ground.

I don't care that I fight out numbered. I don't care that people get cross healed. What I do care about is when people can cast remove curse, g heal, and a cure almost as effective as arch cure(fails very rarely) in 2 seconds, especially if its from a blue healer.

 

[kelmo]

I did not have time to read the entire thread...

This thread has become rather cumbersome. It also seems to be degenerating.

 

[Petra Fyde]

keep it civil, don't resort to personal attacks and the thread will stay open. Simple really.

maybe a reminder is in order?

 

[ShadowTrauma]

This thread has become rather cumbersome. It also seems to be degenerating.

Its a shame because there is some really good discussion in here, but I agree it is a very long thread and the last couple of posts have been not productive. I have actually been sitting here for 20 minutes trying to respond to Goldbergs awesomely efficient derail and have failed to come up with anything that would prevent the oncomming back and forth bickering, its disappointing.

 

[Logrus]

Oh there should be one spell that coddle people? Please explain to me how a cast that is less than 2 seconds that has 3 functions rolled into one is balanced?
There use to be a time when pvp required tactics and team work, this has long since passed. No you can cast one spell(especially when you outnumber your opponent) and you can't kill the other team. I know you play mystics and throwers(and you're bad on both and always in a zerg) so you don't like the idea of them fixing things to make them on an even playing ground.

I don't care that I fight out numbered. I don't care that people get cross healed. What I do care about is when people can cast remove curse, g heal, and a cure almost as effective as arch cure(fails very rarely) in 2 seconds, especially if its from a blue healer.

Hold up.
I am saying that 1v1 CW is could use a few minor tweaks/adjustments. In group/cross healing situations there would need to be a heavier adjustment/scaling since its effectiveness is increased almost exponentially in crossheal situations.

I think this is a reasonable statement, and if you look at most of the arguments, everyone agrees.

In 1v1 situations ONLY, its more the combination of CW and other stuff (protection, stone form, Spell bugs) that cause issue.

Also in your own posts, it does seem you feel that way as well.

 

[kelmo]

Stay on course... I have kind of adopted this thread. I will attempt to police it while it seems worth while to do so. If it becomes an onerous chore to keep it going... *shrugs* I do like what I am seeing here.

 

[Logrus]

Possibility of Doubling Cooldown Times for Heal Potions? (Have Alchemy reduce it by 1% per 2 points in alchemy so that GM alchemist has a 50% cooldown)

Make Glass (edit, this should be splintering) weapons non-PoFable, and lose 1 durability when shard procs and a 20% chance to lose 1 max durability.
When hit by glass shard, target should be immune to the slow effect from another shard for 45 seconds. (Bleed effect could still take place as long as its outside of the Bleed immunity duration previously mentioned.)

I still would like it if Healers became freely attackable to Aggression victims of their target.
(So if A is agressor to B and C heals A, C becomes freely attackble to B. But if B is Agressor to A and C heals A, C does not become freely attackable to B)
Kind of like a passive Agressor flag applied to the healer.

 

[Logrus]

Would probably be REALLY unpopular to have the Mage weapon property affect the skill CAP so it cant be compensated for by Jewelry.