Possible solution to Greater Dragons in PvP

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Exactly, my video will show me and a friend in the middle of nowhere he will all kill me and i will run and the video will show the fireball hit me for 60 period.
...Day Care Psycho Babble designed to impress his peers

You do realize your just repeating your self ... OVER AND OVER AND OVER (repeat 100's of times)

I do not see YOUR movie that will PROVE anything other than you can Fabricate Movies, which of course is a trivial thing to do, just in case you do NOT know how, then go get some one on YOU TUBE to Fabricate one for you.

 

[o2bavr6]

You do realize your just repeating your self ... OVER AND OVER AND OVER (repeat 100's of times)

I do not see YOUR movie that will PROVE anything other than you can Fabricate Movies, which of course is a trivial thing to do, just in case you do NOT know how, then go get some one on YOU TUBE to Fabricate one for you.

ummm...

You do realize your just repeating your self ... OVER AND OVER AND OVER (repeat 100's of times)

I do not see YOUR proof that will PROVE anything other than you can Fabricate yor position, which of course is a trivial thing to do, just in case you do NOT know how, then go copy and paste some of your other posts to Fabricate this one for you.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Of course you are right and i am wrong after all you were there and i wasnt.

Whatever the type of attack was from the GD, I was fighitng 2 tamers with no magery adn 2 archers with no magery and we were way north of Brit gate.

Dont yo see some sort of flame damge on your Char when the firebreath hits you? ...

I have been playing this game since 1997 so I think I know a bit mroe about PvP than you.

...

Uh, first off, the Flame Breath is, the best characterization, the Flamestrike Animation only horizontal. It doesn't go any were, it doesn't follow any one, it doesn't go off screen. It just ANIMATES LIKE A YO YO, Out 2 tiles then back in. PERIOD.

The Fire Ball, is SIMPLY A MAGIC ATTACK, just like any Magic user uses.

You fight 2 Archers and BLAME the Greater Dragon using a Breath Attack that does NOT manifest the animation YOU DESCRIBE.

I played from the day UO Opened its doors to about 8 months after Tram went live. I returned some months ago to a UO that is ..... a travesty. I read a lot and PAID attention to what was being posted. The Picture being drawn was perfectly clear HOW THIS TRAVESTY HAPPENED.

YOU can claim you know more BUT you make it painfully obvious YOU DO NOT.

YOU DO need to take the time to learn the Game Mechanics. IF YOU DO NOT and it is painfully clear you HAVE NOT, then YOU WILL SUCK AT PvP, PvM UO in general.

Step BACK from the DAY CARE PSYCHO BABBLE CRAP or you will be on the same list as the other whiny cry babies, crying this time about me ignoring them. They really do need to get a clue, it isn't ignoring them, I CHOOSE TO NOT WASTE MY TIME on people that clearly are addicted to online verbal violence and abuse. That troll any and all message boards they can to get their daily fix.

It is just so painfully obvious, you clearly do not understand anything your talking about. You just keep iterating some (fabricated?) story and ascribing the same reasons, NO MATTER HOW TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE THOSE REASONS ARE.

The facts

When used against their opposing group, it would result in the monster doing double damage to the person wielding the weapon. For example, carry silver, and Repond creatures did double damage to you. Carry Repond weapons and undead creatures did double damage to you. Pick your opponent with care!

It has been proven to be the case in every single one of these endless whiny crying threads.

In addition if you read the rest of it, you will see you have a 20% penalty when using a slayer weapon on a Mob that is in the OPPOSING GROUP.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

The facts

When used against their opposing group, it would result in the monster doing double damage to the person wielding the weapon. For example, carry silver, and Repond creatures did double damage to you. Carry Repond weapons and undead creatures did double damage to you. Pick your opponent with care!

It has been proven to be the case in every single one of these endless whiny crying threads.

In addition if you read the rest of it, you will see you have a 20% penalty when using a slayer weapon on a Mob that is in the OPPOSING GROUP.

1. I only recall reading about one player who had a slayer weapon in hand. He wasn't taking double damage though. Double damage from a dragon breath weapon would be 120 and no one that I'm aware of has described that unless they are very poorly armored.

2. I am never poorly armored and I don't not carry slayer weapons. I routinely take 70-75 points of damage from GD breath. I suppose you can call it crying to point out that is twice the PvP damage output at which other forms of attack are routinely capped, but it is fact, not fiction.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

The facts
...
I routinely take 70-75 points of damage from GD breath
....

So all your saying and this is rather incredulous, bordering a .... fictional read, is that your routinely being Instantly Killed 3 screens away by a Greater Dragon Fire Breath Attack that you have NEVER seen and did a WHOPPING 75 Points of damage MAX. Conveniently White Noising the other 99.9999% of the cases.

An attack that has a limted range of 3 times, does NOT follow anyone, does NOT go off screen. DOES NOT DO ALL THE FANTASTICAL THINGS YOUR SAYING IT DOES.

And in case you dont/cant connect these dots, the absurd assertion is the summary of what YOU ALL are saying as in if the gestalt of your assertions can allude, pretend, seem like, look like, con, scam to a single cohesive assertion, that when viewed as such (my absurd paraphrasing) is clearly revealed to be absurd.

When used against their opposing group, it would result in the monster doing double damage to the person wielding the weapon. For example, carry silver, and Repond creatures did double damage to you. Carry Repond weapons and undead creatures did double damage to you. Pick your opponent with care!

It has been proven to be the case in every single one of these endless whiny crying threads.

In addition if you read the rest of it, you will see you have a 20% penalty when using a slayer weapon on a Mob that is in the OPPOSING GROUP.

 

[Spector_Napa]

However, their fire breath cannot be avoided and usually results in instant death. It's as bad as the old sammurai one-hit kills. I took 156 points of damage on a mage (with ~50 fire resist suit) from a fireball one day. (yes, I can beef up the fire resist, but even with 70 resist, that'd be a one hit kill)

What shard do u play on that u can last more then 10 seconds with only 50 fire resist?

 

[Connor_Graham]

I still don't see the response to my rebuttal there Enigma.

That says to everyone that you have no way to refute it.


But you go on calling everyone cry babies because they don't agree with you.

Maybe one of these times it might fool someone into thinking you're presenting a mature argument, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

So all your saying and this is rather incredulous, bordering a .... fictional read, is that your routinely being Instantly Killed 3 screens away by a Greater Dragon Fire Breath Attack that you have NEVER seen and did a WHOPPING 75 Points of damage MAX. Conveniently White Noising the other 99.9999% of the cases.

An attack that has a limted range of 3 times, does NOT follow anyone, does NOT go off screen. DOES NOT DO ALL THE FANTASTICAL THINGS YOUR SAYING IT DOES.

And in case you dont/cant connect these dots, the absurd assertion is the summary of what YOU ALL are saying as in if the gestalt of your assertions can allude, pretend, seem like, look like, con, scam to a single cohesive assertion, that when viewed as such (my absurd paraphrasing) is clearly revealed to be absurd.

I don't get killed by 70-75 point Dragon breath damage alone. If I die to a tamer with a Greater Dragon, it is usually because that tamer has dismounted me first. Using a heavy xbow with a spell effect, one can easily take 30-40 points of damage.

Then, you start to run as the tamer yells all kill. You do see the dragon, no one is saying that dragons you've never seen hit you with fire breath. What happens is that the damage is delayed. So, the dragon targets you while you are on the screen and the damage can hit you later, up to several screens away.

So, saying that Dragons are killing you from several screens away is both correct and incorrect just as saying they can't kill you unless they are within a few tiles is also correct and incorrect.

I think everyone understands that. Perhaps you are simply arguing about the semantics.

What it boils down to is that no one wants to take 70-75 damage from a single attack because that kind of damage makes it possible to insta kill someone when used in combination with something else.

That is why other attacks which had that sort of potential damage were all capped. I wouldn't care if the breath attack was more frequent as long as it did less damage. In fighting another player, I have the chance to heal. Sometimes, against Greater Dragons you don't. That is making more and more players use Greater Dragons so the frequency of insta deaths has become a deterrent for other templates.

Since I'd like more participation in PvP and not less, I prefer a balanced state where fighting is fun, not an unbalanced one where extreme damage ends fights too quickly.

 

[Spector_Napa]

I don't get killed by 70-75 point Dragon breath damage alone. If I die to a tamer with a Greater Dragon, it is usually because that tamer has dismounted me first. Using a heavy xbow with a spell effect, one can easily take 30-40 points of damage.

Then, you start to run as the tamer yells all kill. You do see the dragon, no one is saying that dragons you've never seen hit you with fire breath. What happens is that the damage is delayed. So, the dragon targets you while you are on the screen and the damage can hit you later, up to several screens away.

What it boils down to is that no one wants to take 70-75 damage from a single attack because that kind of damage makes it possible to insta kill someone when used in combination with something else.

That is why other attacks which had that sort of potential damage were all capped. I wouldn't care if the breath attack was more frequent as long as it did less damage. In fighting another player, I have the chance to heal. Sometimes, against Greater Dragons you don't. That is making more and more players use Greater Dragons so the frequency of insta deaths has become a deterrent for other templates.

Since I'd like more participation in PvP and not less, I prefer a balanced state where fighting is fun, not an unbalanced one where extreme damage ends fights too quickly.

Honestly the amount of complaining about dragon deaths is ********. fix your template/suit and stfu. its not the dragon thats overpowered. its the person playing the dragon thats owning you.

 

[Connor_Graham]

fix your template/suit and stfu.

Please tell us oh wise guru. How do we fix our template and/or suit to NOT get hit for double the PvP damage cap?

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
If I die to a tamer with a Greater Dragon, it is usually because that tamer has dismounted me first. Using a heavy xbow with a spell effect, one can easily take 30-40 points of damage.

Then, you start to run as the tamer yells all kill. You do see the dragon, no one is saying that dragons you've never seen hit you with fire breath. What happens is that the damage is delayed. So, the dragon targets you while you are on the screen and the damage can hit you later, up to several screens away.
...
Since I'd like more participation in PvP and not less, I prefer a balanced state where fighting is fun, not an unbalanced one where extreme damage ends fights too quickly.

Being Dismounted is NOT unique to Tamers or Greater Dragons. This is extremely disingenuous to label this as an Issue with Tamers/Greater Dragons based on the implied assertion that YOU WILL BE 100% Instantly Killed.

I Remind you, I Tame and Fight with Greater Dragons ... a lot. I know their attacks like the back of my hand. Being temporarily put into a specialized state is NOT = to being insta killed. I stated else where I check twice daily all Greater Dragon spawns for upgrades, the fact that I have NOT found an upgrade in 6 weeks might say something about the quality of my 4 Greater Dragons.

Yes, on a RANDOM basis, an event MAY fire that MAY swing the battle to the Tamer. A template that is NO OFFENSIVE threat to anyone by itself. You want to take this CHANCE to fail to kill a Tamer out of the game. Your tactic is to treat the RANDOM event that does RANDOM damage and treat it as a STATIC Event that does STATIC Damage.

Any Tamer that believes their Greater Dragon is going to Win the Battle base 100% on the Fire Breath Attack is seriously misinformed. At MOST it will contribute less than 1% of the total damage done. Spell Casting will contribute at MOST 30% of the damage, the remaining 69%+ will be its up close and personal attacks. This kind of attack is so totaly easy to avoid that it boarders the hilarious to read people saying they are routinely killed by a Greater Dragon.

Yah, when I check them out, I get attacked, I get paralyzed, I get EBolted,FBolted,FS'd, Cursed, Weakened, Clumsied the entire range of spells they cast. One of of 50 times I will actually take enough damage to get me on the concerned level (generally 50% or less health). Even in these circumstances it is so totally easy to dump that GD off it boarders on the hilarous to picture the BADA$$ PKR's being routinely eaten.

You know when your in Like Destard or the Fire Temple and you want to Lead Tame a Greater Dragon, you will either lead everything else away from your victim or you will lead your victim to some place were adds wont show up OR YOU WILL DIE because you didn't.

Doesn't this even a tiny bit hint to you that a Tamer can demonstrate complete manipulation and control over a WILD Greater Dragon? That in doing this, that Tamer is going to be attacked with everything YOU are being attacked with, with one exception, the WILD Greater Dragon makes the Tamed Greater Dragon your facing look like a Wuss.

Don't you get it? I have approximately 50% resist across the board, I have 125 str, indicating what ever that is Hit Points wise, the ONLY time I am going to die to a Greater Dragon is if I get poisoned and am DUMB enough to NOT get rid of it, which is likely seeing as to how I was DUMB enough to NOT prevent it in the first place. It isnt like I dont know that is going to be one of the FIRST spells they cast on me.

I a vastly weaker opponent, simply DO NOT DIE to a Greater Dragon (maybe 1 in 100) that is VASTLY superior to the Greater Dragon your saying you routinely die to. Connect the dots, this a MAJOR DISCONNECT in asserted experiences. It is so MAJOR that it is guaranteed there is some OTHER explanation to account for the deaths. Either because of an Itemization problem OR because of the Routinely OVER EXAGGERATION of an issue.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Honestly the amount of complaining about dragon deaths is ********. fix your template/suit and stfu. its not the dragon thats overpowered. its the person playing the dragon thats owning you.

Maybe.

How did people fix their suits/templates to counter Word of Death? How did they fix their suits/templates to counter Bushido/Honor/Uncapped crits?

Sometimes, you just need a balance adjustment.

 

[Ailish]

Ugh. You guys do realize that that cap is for DIRECT (bypassing resists) damage, right? This includes armor ignore, criticals, WoD and the damage dealt from the 10% direct modifier on the Quiver of Rage.

There is no such thing as a damage cap for attacks that are affected by resists. They may have adjusted a few things like flamestrikes, but there is no cap. I can hit you with a concussion blow, a crushing blow, heck, even a regular swing! for WAY more than the "35 cap". Why? Because of my pre-cap DI, post-cap DI and weapon base damage put against your physical (or elemental if I consecrate) resist.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Ugh. You guys do realize that that cap is for DIRECT (bypassing resists) damage, right? This includes armor ignore, criticals, WoD and the damage dealt from the 10% direct modifier on the Quiver of Rage.

There is no such thing as a damage cap for attacks that are affected by resists. They may have adjusted a few things like flamestrikes, but there is no cap. I can hit you with a concussion blow, a crushing blow, heck, even a regular swing! for WAY more than the "35 cap". Why? Because of my pre-cap DI, post-cap DI and weapon base damage put against your physical (or elemental if I consecrate) resist.

Of course there are damage caps for attacks affected by resists. Weapons have a specific damage range. Their damage is determined by that range and damage increase modifiers which are capped.

Spells have a base damage which is influenced by evaluating intelligence or spirit speak. Total damage also includes intelligence modifiers and spell damage increase which is capped.

The cap is on the front end, not the back end. That is the only difference.

With Greater Dragons, you can make a front end adjustment by limiting their health which will bring breath damage down or a back end adjustment by capping breath damage at 35 to 40.

 

[Zoran]

1. A tamer doesn't have to reveal to attack. He simply has to have the pet guard him, be in war mode and double click a target.

Wow thanks... Hadnt used my tamer for PvP in quite a while- you just got a lot of players killed.

Lol honestly- until you voiced this glitch I didnt even know about it, and I'll admit that glitched probibly should be fixed. But with the drastic disadvantages to playing a tamer with a GD in PvP combat already I think that it would be silly to lower the dragons damage. The fact that you have a tamer who has to be on foot and who loses their main weapon the second it follows someone off screen is already drawback enough.

Ive also seen greaters get taken down by as few as 3 PvP'rs in less than a minute. When a tamer loses a pet theis way- the pet loses stats, and then must be rezzed and healed before returning to the fray. These are two more Tamer/GD drawbacks.

Some people just continually complain because they do not like the idea of not being able to easily 1v1a non-cheating opponent.

And as to the SP issue- they were the ones who first complained that the issue was most pronounced on seige. Im just pointing out that their issues are greater- but seperate from ours.
Peace.
~ZOran

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Any Tamer that believes their Greater Dragon is going to Win the Battle base 100% on the Fire Breath Attack is seriously misinformed. At MOST it will contribute less than 1% of the total damage done. Spell Casting will contribute at MOST 30% of the damage, the remaining 69%+ will be its up close and personal attacks. This kind of attack is so totaly easy to avoid that it boarders the hilarious to read people saying they are routinely killed by a Greater Dragon.

If breath damage represents less than 1% of the total damage done by a Greater Dragon then why are you so opposed to a cap which only affects the breath weapon?

A cap which limited breath damage to 35-40 would therefore only have the effect of reducing the 1% total damage to .5% total damage.

Therefore, we agree. I'm sure you will embrace the cap now that you realize the minimal impact it will have to total damage.

The goal is not to reduce total damage output, it is simply to prevent insta-kills which are too easily achieved when one attack is allowed to exceed 70 points of damage.

 

[Zoran]

Maybe.

How did people fix their suits/templates to counter Word of Death? How did they fix their suits/templates to counter Bushido/Honor/Uncapped crits?

Sometimes, you just need a balance adjustment.

Ok, so then if you suggest that tamers with GD's should be on more of an equal ground with other players, we are going to let the GD only take up 3 to 4 henchmen slots so that the tamer may be mounted, the same as the others are correct??

~Zoran

 

[o2bavr6]

Either because of an Itemization problem OR because of the Routinely OVER EXAGGERATION of an issue.

You can rant and cry and rationalize all you want but at the end of the day your argument has no merrit.

It's funny how everytime anyone brings up the damage that Word of Death did you avoid discussing it.

We could easily say that WoD was not over powered because it took almost 4 secodns to cast, which is an eternity in fights. Yet EA chose to nerf it because in their minds and everyone elses it was over powered.

We can also say that you are lying about everything that you say, and that you are mistaken about your numbers. But instead most of us are trying to have a mature rational conversation on this subject.

I guess our mistake is thinking that you could even have a mature conversation about it.

It's also funny how so many people think they received huge damage from a GD, and that we are all wrong according to you.

And btw the damage dealt to the char with the slayer weapon was 85HP not double.. get your facts correct

 

[Ailish]

Of course there are damage caps for attacks affected by resists. Weapons have a specific damage range. Their damage is determined by that range and damage increase modifiers which are capped.

Spells have a base damage which is influenced by evaluating intelligence or spirit speak. Total damage also includes intelligence modifiers and spell damage increase which is capped.

The cap is on the front end, not the back end. That is the only difference.

With Greater Dragons, you can make a front end adjustment by limiting their health which will bring breath damage down or a back end adjustment by capping breath damage at 35 to 40.

You can look at it that way if you wish. It doesnt change the fact that I can out-damage a GD in a SINGLE SWING, and I even have control of when the specials happen. I can very very very consistently hit for 40 a swing, no specials. I can consisitently hit between 40 and 80 a swing with one special, which I can spam thanks to mana leech. Yes, in PvP. I can swing at cap.

I am not arguing that firebreath could be capped - tho I think 35-40 is a bit low; 40-50 (on 70 fire resist) would be more consistent with the concept that it is the GREATER dragon. However, saying that it should be capped because there is no other way to do that kind of damage in a single hit is erronous.

If capping the firebreath will make everyone stop complaining, so be it. However, doing that is not going to have any real significant change on the damage output of a GD in PvP, because they simply do not use that particular special move all that often.

BTW, Enigma is right (from what I could tolerate reading of his posts) about there not being a visual animation for firebreath. It does not send out a "fireball". It just hits you. The dragon animate the same whether it is casting a flamestrike or a firebreath. The only way to know the difference is one shows you getting flamestriked (er, however you would put that), the other shows no visible hit, but shows damage taken. I suspect that the person who saw a fireball coming at them actually had 2 things happening - one or the other dragon casted a fireball, the animation for which was outrun, and two, one or the other dragon used firebreath, which was the actual damage taken at that time.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

Ok, so then if you suggest that tamers with GD's should be on more of an equal ground with other players, we are going to let the GD only take up 3 to 4 henchmen slots so that the tamer may be mounted, the same as the others are correct??

~Zoran

A tamer with a Greater Dragon can move at mounted speeds now through the Ninjitsu skill. That is part of the problem.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

You can look at it that way if you wish. It doesnt change the fact that I can out-damage a GD in a SINGLE SWING, and I even have control of when the specials happen. I can very very very consistently hit for 40 a swing, no specials. I can consisitently hit between 40 and 80 a swing with one special, which I can spam thanks to mana leech. Yes, in PvP. I can swing at cap.

I am not arguing that firebreath could be capped - tho I think 35-40 is a bit low; 40-50 (on 70 fire resist) would be more consistent with the concept that it is the GREATER dragon. However, saying that it should be capped because there is no other way to do that kind of damage in a single hit is erronous.

If capping the firebreath will make everyone stop complaining, so be it. However, doing that is not going to have any real significant change on the damage output of a GD in PvP, because they simply do not use that particular special move all that often.

BTW, Enigma is right (from what I could tolerate reading of his posts) about there not being a visual animation for firebreath. It does not send out a "fireball". It just hits you. The dragon animate the same whether it is casting a flamestrike or a firebreath. The only way to know the difference is one shows you getting flamestriked (er, however you would put that), the other shows no visible hit, but shows damage taken. I suspect that the person who saw a fireball coming at them actually had 2 things happening - one or the other dragon casted a fireball, the animation for which was outrun, and two, one or the other dragon used firebreath, which was the actual damage taken at that time.

I don't disagree that in some instances it is possible to exceed 35-40 damage with a single attack that isn't Dragon breath.

However, there are counters to melee damage such as parry, reflect physical armor, blood oath, DCI, and disarm.

There really isn't a counter to a Greater Dragon other than another Greater Dragon.

That is why they need to be balanced.

 

[Ailish]

However, they cannot use a petball to make the GD keep up ... and a GD CANNOT keep up at mounted speed. It can barely keep up at on-foot running speed. It has to do that little "jump" to its master every 10 or so tiles to keep up (which they do not do when following "prey").

In other words, if the tamer is in form and running, the GD will be left far behind, leaving the tamer wide open for attack without repurcussions ....

Next?

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

However, they cannot use a petball to make the GD keep up ... and a GD CANNOT keep up at mounted speed. It can barely keep up at on-foot running speed. It has to do that little "jump" to its master every 10 or so tiles to keep up (which they do not do when following "prey").

In other words, if the tamer is in form and running, the GD will be left far behind, leaving the tamer wide open for attack without repurcussions ....

Next?

The GD does not have to keep up.

Here is an example.

Tamer's skills are :

Taming
Lore
Archery
Tactics
Ninja
Hide
Stealth

The tamer is on foot. Tamer uses a heavy crossbow to dismount his opponent. 30-40 damage with hit spell. Tamer yells all kill. Dragon casts spell. Opponent runs away on foot. Breath damage lands. Opponent is dead.

If the opponent can survive and remount, tamer hides and stealths away to try again later.

If opponent calls in the entire shard to kill Tamer's greater Dragon, Tamer stealths away and logs out.

Believe me, I've seen it a million times.

 

[Ailish]

I don't disagree that in some instances it is possible to exceed 35-40 damage with a single attack that isn't Dragon breath.

However, there are counters to melee damage such as parry, reflect physical armor, blood oath, DCI, and disarm.

There really isn't a counter to a Greater Dragon other than another Greater Dragon.

That is why they need to be balanced.

"Some instances" includes everytime I hit a swing.

Parry, yes. In fact, I miss alot due to parry

Reflect Physical - no one uses any significant amount of this, and thanks to the flagging bug associated with it, most don't use it AT ALL.

Blood Oath - 120 Resist means I take about 16 damage when I hit for 40, max of 32 damage if I hit for 80. This will not deter me at all.

DCI - same as parry, tho I dont miss near as often due to this.

There are counters to the GD - kill the tamer after taking the dragon for a little run (sharp turn around a house works great for breaking target). Then kill the dragon (not really all that hard, especially if you get them mana dumped), or leave it be. Either works. Discord/Peace (dont give me the spiel about no discorders/peacers in PvP guilds. About half my guild has discord on at least one char for doing champs).

I understand that there is apparently a rampant rash of stealth/ninja tamers with godly GD's on Siege, and that people on Siege for some unknown reason cannot use these tactics. However, on production shards, there just are not even that many GD's out there in the field to be worried about in the first place. But if it really will make people feel better, then fine, cap the firebreath.

Honestly, I would be howling ALOT more about the bug that allows tamers to cause their pets to attack without coming out of hiding/invis. For one, it isnt intended (that is why summoning with a ball now pops you out of invis/hiding), and for two, it is a far bigger issue than the firebreath is. In fact, you might not be having such a problem with the GD/firebreath if you could just see the tamer to kill them in the first place ....

 

[o2bavr6]

If capping the firebreath will make everyone stop complaining, so be it. However, doing that is not going to have any real significant change on the damage output of a GD in PvP, because they simply do not use that particular special move all that often.

I've been saying that a good solution would be to just reduce their "casting" distance and speed to have to conform to what players can do.

I like the idea of another type of template to fight even if it is a hiding tamer. I suppose that part of the whole issue is that on most shards PvP happens at either Yew gate or Champ spawns.

You rarely ever see GD's raiding a Champ spawn so that leaves Yew gate. So the problem begins with a blue tamer hugging the guard zone, with X amount of other blues and the reds hovering arund to look for a victim.

If there was no guard zone other than towns we would no longer see blues at moongates they would be hanging around the towns guard zones.

Getting back to Yew gate.. because we are relagated to finding PvP at Yew gate the imbalance of the damage that a GD does is amplified compared to if it was just an open field area with no guard zone which would also require the blues to have to adapt a bit, not just the reds.

 

[o2bavr6]

The GD does not have to keep up.

Here is an example.

Tamer's skills are :

Taming
Lore
Archery
Tactics
Ninja
Hide
Stealth

The tamer is on foot. Tamer uses a heavy crossbow to dismount his opponent. 30-40 damage with hit spell. Tamer yells all kill. Dragon casts spell. Opponent runs away on foot. Breath damage lands. Opponent is dead.

If the opponent can survive and remount, tamer hides and stealths away to try again later.

If opponent calls in the entire shard to kill Tamer's greater Dragon, Tamer stealths away and logs out.

Believe me, I've seen it a million times.

AMEN!!!!!!!!

 

[o2bavr6]

There are counters to the GD - kill the tamer after taking the dragon for a little run (sharp turn around a house works great for breaking target). Then kill the dragon (not really all that hard, especially if you get them mana dumped), or leave it be. Either works. Discord/Peace (dont give me the spiel about no discorders/peacers in PvP guilds. About half my guild has discord on at least one char for doing champs).

The only spawns that you would even need a disco for is Oaks and thats only because most everyone there is red.

We also have stealth arcehrs on our shard whos main objective is to just sit and hide and wait for someone to try to res so that they can res kill them.

I dont consider Disco's or Stealth archers as true PvPers

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

"Some instances" includes everytime I hit a swing.

Parry, yes. In fact, I miss alot due to parry

Reflect Physical - no one uses any significant amount of this, and thanks to the flagging bug associated with it, most don't use it AT ALL.

Blood Oath - 120 Resist means I take about 16 damage when I hit for 40, max of 32 damage if I hit for 80. This will not deter me at all.

DCI - same as parry, tho I dont miss near as often due to this.

There are counters to the GD - kill the tamer after taking the dragon for a little run (sharp turn around a house works great for breaking target). Then kill the dragon (not really all that hard, especially if you get them mana dumped), or leave it be. Either works. Discord/Peace (dont give me the spiel about no discorders/peacers in PvP guilds. About half my guild has discord on at least one char for doing champs).

I understand that there is apparently a rampant rash of stealth/ninja tamers with godly GD's on Siege, and that people on Siege for some unknown reason cannot use these tactics. However, on production shards, there just are not even that many GD's out there in the field to be worried about in the first place. But if it really will make people feel better, then fine, cap the firebreath.

Honestly, I would be howling ALOT more about the bug that allows tamers to cause their pets to attack without coming out of hiding/invis. For one, it isnt intended (that is why summoning with a ball now pops you out of invis/hiding), and for two, it is a far bigger issue than the firebreath is. In fact, you might not be having such a problem with the GD/firebreath if you could just see the tamer to kill them in the first place ....

Ok, so you do understand that there are ways to counter heavy hitting dexxers. You didn't address disarm.

I'd be willing to bet that even on my lowly Siege dexxer I could keep you disarmed for a loooooong time.



As far as using corners to break line of sight...I thought that was a great idea too. Except, as you already know, once they have you targetted, Dragons don't care if you round a corner or run three screens away. They will hit you anyway. This happened to me just the other day. I was dismounted, the dragon cast a lightning bolt, I ran around the corner, started to invis, BOOM fire breath hit me for 70 right through the house. Now, I realize it didn't really go right through the house, but the corner surely didn't help.

You can discord a greater dragon with 120 and a slayer instrument. It takes half a dozen tries, but you can do it. You can't peace them. If you could, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

As to the differences between Siege and production shards.....what is PvP on production shards? Isn't it largely a competition between suits? Why would a production shard PvPer use a pet when he or she has worked so hard to create a suit. It's not like you can lose it. Heck, you can't even get insurance gold from pet kills.

On Siege, PvP isn't a competition between suits, it is a competition between players. That is why we get so bent out of shape when EA puts things in the game that remove skill as the deciding factor.

You are also correct that hiding is a really, really big issue. I'd like to see that addressed too.

 

[Ailish]

I've been saying that a good solution would be to just reduce their "casting" distance and speed to have to conform to what players can do.

I like the idea of another type of template to fight even if it is a hiding tamer. I suppose that part of the whole issue is that on most shards PvP happens at either Yew gate or Champ spawns.

You rarely ever see GD's raiding a Champ spawn so that leaves Yew gate. So the problem begins with a blue tamer hugging the guard zone, with X amount of other blues and the reds hovering arund to look for a victim.

If there was no guard zone other than towns we would no longer see blues at moongates they would be hanging around the towns guard zones.

Getting back to Yew gate.. because we are relagated to finding PvP at Yew gate the imbalance of the damage that a GD does is amplified compared to if it was just an open field area with no guard zone which would also require the blues to have to adapt a bit, not just the reds.

I actually find everything you say to be reasonable and true, and your proposed solution a good one - except for the raids with GD thing ... I have been told what shard you play on, but I dont recall; however, on Napa it is not unusual for GD's to be either working the spawn or raiding it. You see many more GD's in spawn areas than at Yew gate.

*comments on other messages*

Our swarm of stealth archers from Napa has since moved on to Atlantic, thank god. We do have a handful of these, but usually they are readily hunted down and slain very quickly

Moonglow ... I forgot to address disarm. However, you would only keep me disarmed in the times that I did not do the same to you were you trying to spam it. The specials on an ornate axe are disarm/crushing. I don't usually spam disarm, but if my opponent wants to play it that way, I can. I have endless mana thanks to hard hits and ~60 mana leech.

On the corner thing, you are correct that it is difficult to do when you are on foot, but mounted you only need to get about 10 tiles ahead of the GD to break their line of sight on a sharp corner.

As far as the disco/peace requirements, it really depends on the dragon. The average barding difficulty for a GD is 140-150. Hit it with a curse to lower that number. I have seen them peace without first being disco'd. In fact, I have a guildmate that specializes in this particular counter to GD's - he runs around naked with an insured exceptional instrument and 120 real skill music, disco and peace.

o2bavr6 - it isnt that the champ NEEDS to be discorded, it is that it is expedient to do so. Barracoon, discorded, can be taken down by a single archer or dexer in about 3 minutes. Rikky takes about 5 min or less with a single archer when discorded. That lessens the possibility of losing it in a raid Oaks ... we dont even bother to discord

 

[o2bavr6]

I actually find everything you say to be reasonable and true, and your proposed solution a good one - except for the raids with GD thing ... I have been told what shard you play on, but I dont recall; however, on Napa it is not unusual for GD's to be either working the spawn or raiding it. You see many more GD's in spawn areas than at Yew gate.

it isnt that the champ NEEDS to be discorded, it is that it is expedient to do so. Barracoon, discorded, can be taken down by a single archer or dexer in about 3 minutes. Rikky takes about 5 min or less with a single archer when discorded. That lessens the possibility of losing it in a raid Oaks ... we dont even bother to discord

On Chessy you rarely ever see people using a GD to do spawns, but then again we control most spawn activity on the shard and once in a great while one of use will bring a GD, but it is more the exception than the norm.

I should have said peacer instead of Discoer for Oaks.. we almost always do it on reds which can be hugely difficult to do with negative karma

It's a pixie flamestrike fest

 

[Ailish]

Heh ... see, we control most spawn activity on Napa, and out of boredom take our pets to spawns to train them

Agreed with the peacer on Oaks *hates getting pixie whacked*

Now if only they would fix area peace, which they broke when they fixed it ... But that is for a different thread ...

 

[Zoran]

So many arguments on so many sides here.

If greater dragons are such a menace, then why dont tamer guilds own the shards?

Can a GD/Tamer with ninjitsu travel at mounted speed? Yes. But as adressed earlier the dragon cannot. Thus, the tamer will be without dragon should he choose to outrun an opponent or try to keep up with a running battle.

Can that tamer hide, stealth away, and then call his dragon to him?
Yes, but using a pet summonzing ball makes the tamer come visible, and tracking makes stealthing only marginally useful in any case.
Furthermore I've seen VaMp on Lake Austin kill a greater dragon in less than a minute once they have it seperated from the tamer, not giving the tamer time to get to a safe distance and then re-summon it.

Once the dragon is down- I notice the Ninja/Steath/Tamer template listed above lacks any Vet. skill. So there is your dead dragon.

I have a tamer I dont use often for PvP because its a slow weak PvP template. When I see a tamer on the field its like a gift from Mondain himself! I hit the dragon and drag it off while a teamate hits the tamer. When they are slow enough to let the dragon get truly seperated, I get it a few screens away, invis, then come back to it while it meandors around aimlessly and drop EV's on its lame ass. With my dexxer, I just drag the dragon off. Ive never had one 'catch' me or kill me with some secret power hit.

And what of peacemaking? I see peacemakers peace GD's in PvP all the time. A peacemaker can even peace or disco a GD without flagging on that dragon, the tamer, or going grey in any way!

So you wanna nerf the GD? Make them take 3 henchman slots, make peacing or discoing them cause the bard to flag grey, and while were at it, lets not leave them one of the slowest creatures on the shard. Sure- that sounds about fair then. Deal?
~Zoran

 

[Zoran]

The GD does not have to keep up.

Here is an example.

Tamer's skills are :

Taming
Lore
Archery
Tactics
Ninja
Hide
Stealth

Where is the Vet to raise the Dragon once its down? No magery to heal that dragon at all? Ok, ok.... How are you healing yourself? No chiv? No Magery? No healing or anatomy?
What about mana regen? Stamana regen? No Med? No focus?
Are the players your fighting so bad that you will take no damage?
Do you REALLY believe that there will be only one enemy? Once the stealther comes visible and says ALL KILL- and then two dexxers nereby rush him, poison and then bleed him- how does he re-hide?
The idea you put out there looks GREAT on paper- but in the field it just isnt that strong of a template.

Anybody who has been in once of these 'shard-owning guild''s vents knows how many little healing and speeder programs y'all use. Its to the point that most of these expressly PvP guilds dont even recognize it as cheating anymore. So when a trammie-skill like taming has a 'buy-in' to your game - it makes a lot of people get 'butt-hurt'.

Just as with any tempplate its got its ups and downs- but at least they are playing by the games rules.
~Zoran

 

[CroakerTnT]

What shard do u play on that u can last more then 10 seconds with only 50 fire resist?

I live on siege, and I rarely last 10 seconds. Never when a dragon is around.

 

[Draxous]

The GD does not have to keep up.

Here is an example.

Tamer's skills are :

Taming
Lore
Archery
Tactics
Ninja
Hide
Stealth

The tamer is on foot. Tamer uses a heavy crossbow to dismount his opponent. 30-40 damage with hit spell. Tamer yells all kill. Dragon casts spell. Opponent runs away on foot. Breath damage lands. Opponent is dead.

If the opponent can survive and remount, tamer hides and stealths away to try again later.

If opponent calls in the entire shard to kill Tamer's greater Dragon, Tamer stealths away and logs out.

Believe me, I've seen it a million times.

AMEN!!!!!!!!

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TIMES 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is about risk versus reward, and the crybabies just want to keep reaping the rewards for little to no risk.

 

[Zoran]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TIMES 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is about risk versus reward, and the crybabies just want to keep reaping the rewards for little to no risk.

Little risk? Are you for real???
Tamers arer one of the most often killed PvP template lol... And when they do maqke a kill, they get no insurance gold from the kill. So can you say no reward?? Hmm??

And its not the tamers here being crybabies.. They are not whining about how slow their dragons are, or how discoers are effecting their pets without flagging on them (the same with peacers). They are not crying about how long it takes to build up taming, or to train a pet properly.
No, its the people who cannot get their cheating little medic programs to keep up, and have too much pride to admit they need to go 3v1 on some trammie-tamer.

Oh well...
~Zoran

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

If breath damage represents less than 1% of the total damage done by a Greater Dragon then why are you so opposed to a cap which only affects the breath weapon?...

Yes, the statement was deliberate and obviously a 2 edged sword, now come the swing the other way.

GIVEN that it is a PETTY change, then WHY are YOU SO ADAMANT to have Tamers nerf'd over such a trivial value? (Not like it isn't obvious or anything).

Given that it is a PETTY change, then why are YOU so adamant to have EA/M spend its precious resources making a change that wont have any noticeable affect?

Given that it is a PETTY change, then why are you and the others HARASSING the community over such a PETTY change that will have NO AFFECT on the outcome of PvP?

Lets here why YOU are pushing for a PETTY Change that will have no real affect on the outcome of PvP AND obviously EXAGGERATING the problem (you know vs the PETTY change).

We are getting to the bottom line here aren't we, This is just a Petty, Bitchy, Vindictive Temper Tantrum, by a hand full, IF THAT, PKR wanna bees, that REFUSE to change to be able to be effective, in a PvP environement were Tamers are Viable, rather than some ones Training Dummy..

 

[MadTexan]

I'm not too concerned about the greater dragons in PvP for the most part. They are too slow to really be much of a danger with their melee attacks and/or their spells.

However, their fire breath cannot be avoided and usually results in instant death. It's as bad as the old sammurai one-hit kills. I took 156 points of damage on a mage (with ~50 fire resist suit) from a fireball one day. (yes, I can beef up the fire resist, but even with 70 resist, that'd be a one hit kill)

So, the first step should be to eliminate the fire breath damage in PvP.

Their spells aren't as big a problem, but I am annoyed at how they can chain spells at you much faster than a player and seem to be able to cast from off-screen. Limiting their FC/FCR and range to the same as players would solve this.

Ok, let the flames begin!

WOW!! you don't exagerate much do you?

Fire Breath is HP based. The lower the HP on the fire breather the lower the damage

Fire breath was capped at 200HP (which a greater dragon cannot reach as it's HP are too low) shortly after paragons were introduced and the Paragon AW started downing people in one breath, somwhere around Pub 29 or so.

So given the cap and your 50 resist and even if the greater dragon could reach the cap (which it can't) the most you would be hit for is 100.

Now I am not saying that these pets may not be a problem, but gross exageration will not make your case for you.

 

[o2bavr6]

Yes, the statement was deliberate and obviously a 2 edged sword, now come the swing the other way.

GIVEN that it is a PETTY change, then WHY are YOU SO ADAMANT to have Tamers nerf'd over such a trivial value? (Not like it isn't obvious or anything).

Given that it is a PETTY change, then why are YOU so adamant to have EA/M spend its precious resources making a change that wont have any noticeable affect?

Given that it is a PETTY change, then why are you and the others HARASSING the community over such a PETTY change that will have NO AFFECT on the outcome of PvP?

Lets here why YOU are pushing for a PETTY Change that will have no real affect on the outcome of PvP AND obviously EXAGGERATING the problem (you know vs the PETTY change).

We are getting to the bottom line here aren't we, This is just a Petty, Bitchy, Vindictive Temper Tantrum, by a hand full, IF THAT, PKR wanna bees, that REFUSE to change to be able to be effective, in a PvP environement were Tamers are Viable, rather than some ones Training Dummy..

Your points are valid, but you still didnt adress his question, you just asked another question with your own.

This is something that you do repeatedly as well as ignore other valid questions because you have no rebuttal to them other than to call people cry babies.

Why not address the Word of Death questions then huh?

Maybe if you shake your left hand enough people will forget to ask you about your right hand.

 

[Zoran]

Your points are valid, but you still didnt adress his question, you just asked another question with your own.

This is something that you do repeatedly as well as ignore other valid questions because you have no rebuttal to them other than to call people cry babies.

Why not address the Word of Death questions then huh?

Maybe if you shake your left hand enough people will forget to ask you about your right hand.

Here, how about I adress the WOD question for ya?
First of all, word of death was being CAST by players. Yes it took a long time to cast, but then again a lot of these PvP'rs were using FC cheats so it wasnt taking as long as it should.
WOD could be cast by a mounted player. WOD could even be cast by a tamer/spellweaver who had a pet on you. WOD required Spellweaving, controling a GD takes Taming / Animal Lore / and Vet or magery if you ever want to heal or raise the beast.

Thats about it.
Jog on.
~Zoran

 

[Sheridan]

One last polite request for civility... Keep the trolling and personal attacks out of the thread, please.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Move on this is not the post your looking for.

 

[Chad Sexington]

Bull Crap, that is what is stated in every single one of these bitchy little whiny Oh Nerf ..........

"There is NO Insurance on the UBER/SUPERIOR/ADVANCED sp".

IF there is NO UBER ITEMS TO LOSE OR they are NOT AFRAID, then why the "There is NO INSURANCE" whine? No, it is there to state explicitly how SUPERIOR they believe themselves to be AND IMPLICITLY states HOW TERRIFIED THEY ARE, THAT THEY WILL LOSE THE UBER STUFF.

THEY ARE TO DARN AFRAID OF LOSING...... AND they obviously think the Greater Dragon is GONNA EAT MY UBER STUFF AND I WILL NEVER GET IT BACK.

Talk about the Pan Ultimate Bank Sitting Prima Donna's.

Wanting balance doesn't equal fear of losing items. It never has and it never will. This is true for a shard with or without insurance. But you seem to connect the dots... somehow.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Wanting balance doesn't equal fear of losing items. It never has and it never will. This is true for a shard with or without insurance. But you seem to connect the dots... somehow.

Noooooo, what the point is, is when SP players come here and INJECT the "There is no insurance" as a rationalization for a NERF to some template, such that additional statements made by them say "I choose to NOT wear the good stuff, because there is NO insurance and the items are hard to come by".

This is a very clear cut statement they are "Afraid" to lose their stuff, then turn around and say how "Unfair" UO is because they are REQUIRED to fight a Template with Basic Stuff.

I mean it should be crystal clear that is a really nice circular argument that is intended to justify the Nerfing of some Template, in this case it is Tamers that are in the barrel and it is the "I have Tamers" doing the call for Nerfing.

Or said a different way, the Rationalization for a Nerf, based on, "There is NO insurance" is, in the context of UO - SP totally absurd. It is a given, a known there is NO insurance on SP. No one was hood winked, Conned etc on SP in this regard. IF they choose to protect their Good Stuff, so be it, that is their choice. IF that choice decreases their ability to be effective vs a template, then how is that a justification for NERFING, sprayed with the perfume of BALANCING, a template? How does their "Choice", of the items they bring to the encounter, create an imperative for change (AKA NERF)?

IT should be clear they Choose to be less effective.

Wouldn't this lead to the avocation that all templates should be nerf'd such that the opposing templates can engage them with the "Chosen" Basic Items? Why should anyone in this context be bothered to get the Good stuff?

 

[Chad Sexington]

Noooooo, what the point is, is when SP players come here and INJECT the "There is no insurance" as a rationalization for a NERF to some template, such that additional statements made by them say "I choose to NOT wear the good stuff, because there is NO insurance and the items are hard to come by".

This is a very clear cut statement they are "Afraid" to lose their stuff, then turn around and say how "Unfair" UO is because they are REQUIRED to fight a Template with Basic Stuff.

I mean it should be crystal clear that is a really nice circular argument that is intended to justify the Nerfing of some Template, in this case it is Tamers that are in the barrel and it is the "I have Tamers" doing the call for Nerfing.

Or said a different way, the Rationalization for a Nerf, based on, "There is NO insurance" is, in the context of UO - SP totally absurd. It is a given, a known there is NO insurance on SP. No one was hood winked, Conned etc on SP in this regard. IF they choose to protect their Good Stuff, so be it, that is their choice. IF that choice decreases their ability to be effective vs a template, then how is that a justification for NERFING, sprayed with the perfume of BALANCING, a template? How does their "Choice", of the items they bring to the encounter, create an imperative for change (AKA NERF)?

IT should be clear they Choose to be less effective.

Wouldn't this lead to the avocation that all templates should be nerf'd such that the opposing templates can engage them with the "Chosen" Basic Items? Why should anyone in this context be bothered to get the Good stuff?

You're missing one important point.

You're assuming people can handle greater dragons if they were wearing the proper equipment. They're saying they'll die with or without the proper equipment.

If I'm not mistaken, people on insurance shards are also complaining about the damage dealt by Greater Dragons. Sounds to me that people on other shards just have a higher threshold for putting up with it because of how little death matters, not because this imbalance doesn't exist on those shards.

When there is more consequence to dying, imbalances hurt more. When artifacts and runic armor are put away in favor of gm armor, it's not out of fear or unfairness due the rules of the shard. It's an effort to minimize the damage until the imbalance is fixed.

This imbalance isn't Siege specific. It's just more apparent on Siege.

Wouldn't this lead to the avocation that all templates should be nerf'd such that the opposing templates can engage them with the "Chosen" Basic Items? Why should anyone in this context be bothered to get the Good stuff?

It doesn't make sense does it. Self-admittedly, it doesn't make sense.

Logically, if you followed the reasoning you posted above, everyone should come to this conclusion -- they don't. It probably doesn't make sense because your argument is flawed, not because everyone else but you is blind.

 

[Arch Magus]

Insurance doesnt even have anything to do with this thread...

but that's ok, Enigma can just keep running his mouth.
He has the answers to all things!!!1!!1 =D

 

[Zoran]

You're missing one important point.

You're assuming people can handle greater dragons if they were wearing the proper equipment. They're saying they'll die with or without the proper equipment.

Correct, and MORE people than just Enigma are saying they are wrong.

We too have fought GD's and not had these problems. Its not about wearing certain armor, though having a high fire resist is essential. But just the same, before PvPing most players have the sense to have all max resist and 45 DCI anyways. If not, they should.

GD's are NOT THAT EFFECTIVE in PvP! True, they give tamers (who are considered by many PvP'rs and ALL program-cheaters as Trammies only) a fighting chance in the PvP world. This is what players are complaining about.

And as to the Siege periless issue- one last time;
They are a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ELEMENT.
SP has a different rule set and what is good or bad for them seldom concerns the rest of the shards. Such is it in this circumstance.

If the nerfing of the ability of the tamer to attack while invisible was in question- id be totally on the other side of that arguement. I think thats just silly.
But when it comes to making the weak Tamer/GD combo even weaker so they might be killed easily because you see them as trammie imposters not fit for fel? Thats just plain 'Uncool'
~Zoran

 

[Zoran]

Insurance doesnt even have anything to do with this thread...

but that's ok, Enigma can just keep running his mouth.
He has the answers to all things!!!1!!1 =D

If you would read the whoooole long boring thread (not that I would wish THAT on anybody) you'd see the topic (insurance that is) has been raised in a couple of ways.

As for Enigma- several people on the shard have shared the view that the idea of nerfing the GD's is an unfair disadvantage to the tamers. Enigma has just been the most outspoken on the topic and thus the largest target for slurs and comebacks....
-But hey, you did it too so you know that better than me lol.....
Zoran

 

[Arch Magus]

Enigma has just been the most obnoxious on the topic

fixed for you ^_^

 

[Zoran]

Quote changing... How sad.
~Zoran