Passive Detect Changes

[John Connelly]

Hows this for an argument.

Come up with a better idea that addresses the problem or accept that passive detect is the best way to address the problem.

You tear down and build... nothing.

Not happy about the idea of passive detect? Then do something constructive about it.

Your argument is based on the premise that there is a problem that needs addressed; but for me there isn't, so how can I construct a solution. Everything is fine as it is as far as stealth goes.

 

[Draxous]

Hows this for an argument.

Come up with a better idea that addresses the problem or accept that passive detect is the best way to address the problem.

You tear down and build... nothing.

Not happy about the idea of passive detect? Then do something constructive about it.

Your argument is based on the premise that there is a problem that needs addressed; but for me there isn't, so how can I construct a solution. Everything is fine as it is as far as stealth goes.

My premise is based on the fact that no body has disputed the problems I've highlighted.

When you do, you can sit there and tell me there is no problem that needs to be addressed.

Thanks.

 

[Beli Mawr]

Hmm... I use a hide/stealth/steal character in the dungeons to steal artifacts.
100/112.8/120
I allso have 120 fence, 120 heal, 120 anat on him at the moment, I put stealing on the stone and put his 120 tactics on if I want to pvp with him.

I actually get passively detected by the spawn, not often, but it does happen. It happens most when I get close to them(monsters).

Personally, I believe if a player wants to be able to find me, he should have to have 100 detect, 100 tracking and what else to counter my 320 points.

Again, as I have said in the past, fairness seems to depend on the template one plays and what they think is fair.
____________________________________________________________________________

I allso use a char with hide/stealth/detect/lockpicking/removetrap/magery for doing chests in the dungeons, and for detecting people hunting with their stealth tamers in dungeons.

I have no problem detecting them, If I use detect hidden withing 3 tiles of them.

Now, take the daemon dungeon where lots of people farm silver. Did you know, that you can put your dragon in a room there, then stealth to the next level of the dungeon and you will still recieve the silver when your dragon eats one of those daemons? If you are standing in the right location on the next level of the dungeon. If you want to find those people, you have to use detect hidden on the level they leave their unattended farmer standing on.

Detect hidden isn't broken, it is the game mechanics. Fix the above issue, and I believe you fix the problem.

 

[Draxous]

Beli... the only way you get revealed by monsters or anything is if you run into them.

Also detect/tracking do not counter stealth - read through my posts in this thread for why.

Thanks.

 

[Kat]

Beli... the only way you get revealed by monsters or anything is if you run into them.

Also detect/tracking do not counter stealth - read through my posts in this thread for why.

Thanks.

What game are you playing?? Both of those statements show how absolutely clueless you really are. Learn some game mechanics already! rolleyes:

 

[Draxous]

Beli... the only way you get revealed by monsters or anything is if you run into them.

Also detect/tracking do not counter stealth - read through my posts in this thread for why.

Thanks.

What game are you playing?? Both of those statements show how absolutely clueless you really are. Learn some game mechanics already! rolleyes:

Want to me to show you what clueless looks like?

Let us see you address the points made in this post:

Because this applies (it's from the low-hanging fruit thread):

if you can turn on Passive Detect, if it can be deemed a " piece of low hanging fruit"

Personally I do not want passive detect. Get tracking and detect hidden on your template if you want to counter hiding and stealth. Why should a player investing 175 points in skills be revealed by someone with no investment in the required skills?

Maybe there is an another solution, like flagged players can't smoke bomb or cannot hide for a time. Passive detect is not a fair solution to your problems.

That is total crap.

You run around stealthed and a player with tracking and detect hidden, uses the skill... tracks you and reveals you and then you INSTANTLY hide and stealth away again! Like what the hell was the point of using the skill? To see your beautiful face for a split second?

You do know that the timer between when I can reveal you again is the same timer for when you can hide again. So Ive got you tracked and I'm following you waiting to use the skill again and then I reveal you and you hide again. Awesome.

Lets not even mention clicking yourself with detect hidden is supposed to have an Area of Effect (AoE) around the detector that reveals all hidden people. It does not work effectively even at 100.

Yeah, that sounds like it's balanced.

Smoke bombs, no delay between when you hide and when you can stealth, with the ability to instantly hide after being revealed and with how handicapped the skill detect hidden is.

Yeah, that's sounds like it's balanced.


Passive detect works fine on every other shard and this game is tailored and balanced to it. There's no reason you should be upset about making this game fair to all classes of characters instead of favoring one above the rest. If it is a low-hanging fruit - it needs to be addressed.

Still waiting!

 

[Kat]

Want to me to show you what clueless looks like?

You show us how clueless you are on a daily basis. We really don't need any further proof, Draxous, but thanks for offering.

Shall I wait around for your head to explode? That is always entertaining!

 

[T'Challa]

Beli... the only way you get revealed by monsters or anything is if you run into them.

You are 100% incorrect. Passive reveal works for non-PC mobiles on Siege.

Play the shard once in awhile and you'll learn the differences. Otherwise, well, Atlantic Doom---------->

 

[T'Challa]

Shall I wait around for your head to explode? That is always entertaining!

 

[Elmer Fudd]

You show us how clueless you are on a daily basis. We really don't need any further proof, Draxous, but thanks for offering.

Shall I wait around for your head to explode? That is always entertaining!

Kat! Honestly your parents should have made you learn this quote at a very young age,

"Be careful not to impart your wisdom to a guest whose background you do not know. You may be instructing a Nobel laureate in his own field"

-David Brown


The sad part about you is, you do know most of these people's PVP background and there some of the best on the shard, and in this particular area, they are the unquestionable experts...do you have an opinion? sure...but it weighs as much as a feather on the scales...it means nothing...because with every flip of the keystroke you prove how very underdevloped your knowledge in PvP is as well as your ability to actually do it...

So it would be wiser for you to state an opinion on the matter then bow out...and let the experts on the issue instruct you otherwise...if you would actually take a moment and pay attention...these guys have forgot more about PvP then you know...

 

[Spree]

If they add passive detect give the thieves a bone by adding stealing to equation of being reveled.

 

[Førsaken]

If they add passive detect give the thieves a bone by adding stealing to equation of being reveled.

I like this and promote it. Because I view this entire discussion on PvP with; Hide, Stealth, and Ninjitsu.

Period.

 

[Kat]

Kat! Honestly your parents should have made you learn this quote at a very young age,

"Be careful not to impart your wisdom to a guest whose background you do not know. You may be instructing a Nobel laureate in his own field"

-David Brown

I would agree with that sentiment if you were talking about anyone other than Draxous.

The sad part about you is, you do know most of these people's PVP background and there some of the best on the shard, and in this particular area, they are the unquestionable experts...do you have an opinion? sure...but it weighs as much as a feather on the scales...it means nothing...because with every flip of the keystroke you prove how very underdevloped your knowledge in PvP is as well as your ability to actually do it...

So it would be wiser for you to state an opinion on the matter then bow out...and let the experts on the issue instruct you otherwise...if you would actually take a moment and pay attention...these guys have forgot more about PvP then you know...

The really sad part is that you believe your friends are the "unquestionable experts". They are not, nor do I claim to be such. Furthermore, the most recent comments by Draxous, in regard to stealth, detect, tracking and the passive reveal ability monsters have were flat out wrong.

If you guys weren't so condescending and downright hateful, you might actually succeed in getting your points across. Someone might actually consider one of you an "expert" on certain subjects, if some of you could clean up your act. You guys don't have to spam and spew hate towards everyone who disagree's with you. If your opinion or explanation has merit, let it stand on its own or explain further, if necessary. Beyond that, you aren't doing anything to further your cause.

 

[Monolith]

they are the unquestionable experts...QUOTE]

Elmer....I'm not for sure if I would go that far. Yes, opinions from PVPers on Siege are very much appreciated and respected, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they are unquestionable experts. I say this because, they are human, and with being human, you have to count for greed. Most of PVPers look at what benefits them mostly and not the game.

Black Rain already stated some issues which I agree with him that is not balanced on Siege along with hiding/stealth. My question is.....why are we so focused on hiding/stealth when there is also other issues just as important? Is it because thats what the majority of the shard is playing? I mean....BFF/KOC/OTF/etc is known to choose powerful templates to win at all cost on the field. If I had the time and patience, I could dig up all the threads about you guys talking crap to the people whining about certain templates you guys used to play.

I mean.....even now, I think mages are little overpowering 1 vs 1. Maybe I must really suck, but 1 vs 1, I can't do crap against a mage who has protection on with max DCI. For example, I've fought Kage numerous times with him having protection on and he's able to cast spell combos which redlines me. He's able to heal throught the damage I inflict on him because I'm not able to inflict enough damage fast enough. Ok....yes, I can use nerve strike....which drains my mana.

Now to add mysticism.....thats another overpowering skill/spells. Forsaken redlines me with 1 mana dump/combo. I havn't been on game in a week, not for sure if they nerfed the mysticism spells, so things might be different now.

To sum all this up, there is only couple people on Siege who really wants balance on this shard, rest only wants whats best for them.

So dismount, mage dump, and pwned for the win. Thats balance on Siege, but wait.....I know the solution before anyone flames me. We can play a mage temp then so we can cross heal and crap like that.

News Flash.....some people are great at playing a mage, some are good, some are okay, and some suck at playing a mage. This is all about hand and eye coordination and not all people are great. The new Nintendo generation are great at this. I'm assuming this is one reason why some of the young players on this game is so good at playing a mage.

 

[Draxous]

Kat! Honestly your parents should have made you learn this quote at a very young age,

"Be careful not to impart your wisdom to a guest whose background you do not know. You may be instructing a Nobel laureate in his own field"

-David Brown

I would agree with that sentiment if you were talking about anyone other than Draxous.

The sad part about you is, you do know most of these people's PVP background and there some of the best on the shard, and in this particular area, they are the unquestionable experts...do you have an opinion? sure...but it weighs as much as a feather on the scales...it means nothing...because with every flip of the keystroke you prove how very underdevloped your knowledge in PvP is as well as your ability to actually do it...

So it would be wiser for you to state an opinion on the matter then bow out...and let the experts on the issue instruct you otherwise...if you would actually take a moment and pay attention...these guys have forgot more about PvP then you know...

The really sad part is that you believe your friends are the "unquestionable experts". They are not, nor do I claim to be such. Furthermore, the most recent comments by Draxous, in regard to stealth, detect, tracking and the passive reveal ability monsters have were flat out wrong.

If you guys weren't so condescending and downright hateful, you might actually succeed in getting your points across. You guys don't have to spam and spew hate towards everyone who disagree's with you. If your opinion has merit, let it stand on its own or explain further, if necessary. Beyond that, you aren't doing anything to further your cause.

A few things.

I was wrong about one thing. I'm still not even sure that I'm wrong about it but if more than one say so... I'll believe ya. Because all ive ever done while training my stealth tamer is pve. Ive never noticed it. You were wrong about the timers. Had you have made other valid points, they'd still be valid.

I've been playing this game for the last 13 years of my life. Do you even know who I am? I wrote the story in this game. From the beginning. Before you were here. You check the top anything on either server I played and when I was playing there, I was amongst them.

I've just about done did it all. Before my last hiatus, I have just every character class you can think of. Mage, paladin, tamer, thief, mules, abc archer, sampire, assassin, and treasure hunter. Each class with the soul stones to hit all the good templates. The only thing I don't have is a bard. Ironically, a bard was my very first character. BlacK RaiN. When you could provoke NPCs onto players. I deleted him after going red and dying in super deep statloss protesting that change and the removal of precast. I've built player towns. I've run establishments in wintermoor. The most famous player created town in the history of this game. I even built a city here on Siege and called it heaven.

I've been running with and amongst the top tier of my shards since day 1. Do you have any idea what it's like being at the top for 13 years. There are a few like Forsaken who share my story. Even then, I've seen and did things he wishes he could have been around for. Through all the changes. Through all the broken imbalances. Fighting all the gimps and the whole time sticking to a class that is tough to learn and tough to play well.

I've seen, experienced and understand this game in dimensions you couldn't dream about. You take no advantage of a resource like me when it's right infront of you. You cannot manipulate me kat, I'm sorry. You ahve that habbit with a lot of people and you're personal problems with me outweigh our common goal and that is to make this game fun again. I'll keep it playful because I'm being harsh. Nothing personal. We are enemies. You don't like what I have to say. Cool. I'm still staying it.


You've got your 3 low hanging fruit. Good job. Thank you for putting in the work and getting it done. I hope you continue with what you started. I didn't see the boost to monster loot there. I hope it makes it way through.

Stealth on this shard is a problem. I'd like to see giving thieves a bone.

Maybe this is a good reason to make this a game wide solution since they need a bone especially on the other shards.. too. I liked sprees idea. Maybe you thieves to get to the thieves forum and muster up some consensus. Maybe mythics feeling generous and another group of neglected can get some love. I get it as one of you.

I still want to know if this stealth issue/passive detect is low hanging fruit.

As our representative... kat. Could you ask him?

Thanks.

 

[Monolith]

A few things.

I was wrong about one thing. I'm still not even sure that I'm wrong about it but if more than one say so... I'll believe ya. Because all ive ever done while training my stealth tamer is pve. Ive never noticed it. You were wrong about the timers. Had you have made other valid points, they'd still be valid.

I've been playing this game for the last 13 years of my life. Do you even know who I am? I wrote the story in this game. From the beginning. Before you were here. You check the top anything on either server I played and when I was playing there, I was amongst them.

I've just about done did it all. Before my last hiatus, I have just every character class you can think of. Mage, paladin, tamer, thief, mules, abc archer, sampire, assassin, and treasure hunter. Each class with the soul stones to hit all the good templates. The only thing I don't have is a bard. Ironically, a bard was my very first character. BlacK RaiN. When you could provoke NPCs onto players. I deleted him after going red and dying in super deep statloss protesting that change and the removal of precast. I've built player towns. I've run establishments in wintermoor. The most famous player created town in the history of this game. I even built a city here on Siege and called it heaven.

I've been running with and amongst the top tier of my shards since day 1. Do you have any idea what it's like being at the top for 13 years. There are a few like Forsaken who share my story. Even then, I've seen and did things he wishes he could have been around for. Through all the changes. Through all the broken imbalances. Fighting all the gimps and the whole time sticking to a class that is tough to learn and tough to play well.

I've seen, experienced and understand this game in dimensions you couldn't dream about. You take no advantage of a resource like me when it's right infront of you. You cannot manipulate me kat, I'm sorry. You ahve that habbit with a lot of people and you're personal problems with me outweigh our common goal and that is to make this game fun again. I'll keep it playful because I'm being harsh. Nothing personal. We are enemies. You don't like what I have to say. Cool. I'm still staying it.


You've got your 3 low hanging fruit. Good job. Thank you for putting in the work and getting it done. I hope you continue with what you started. I didn't see the boost to monster loot there. I hope it makes it way through.

Stealth on this shard is a problem. I'd like to see giving thieves a bone.

Maybe this is a good reason to make this a game wide solution since they need a bone especially on the other shards.. too. I liked sprees idea. Maybe you thieves to get to the thieves forum and muster up some consensus. Maybe mythics feeling generous and another group of neglected can get some love. I get it as one of you.

I still want to know if this stealth issue/passive detect is low hanging fruit.

As our representative... kat. Could you ask him?

Thanks.

I know theres no love loss here, but after reading your resume....I have one question for you if your definitely all about balance on this shard. Do you think Mage is overpowering and balanced on this shard right now?

 

[Elmer Fudd]

I would agree with that sentiment if you were talking about anyone other than Draxous.




The really sad part is that you believe your friends are the "unquestionable experts". They are not, nor do I claim to be such. Furthermore, the most recent comments by Draxous, in regard to stealth, detect, tracking and the passive reveal ability monsters have were flat out wrong.

If you guys weren't so condescending and downright hateful, you might actually succeed in getting your points across. You guys don't have to spam and spew hate towards everyone who disagree's with you. If your opinion has merit, let it stand on its own or explain further, if necessary. Beyond that, you aren't doing anything to further your cause.

I have done a lot to further my cause by discrediting your advice or opinion, B/C it has no merit or weight in the discussion...your not bringing anything legit to the table and the more you argue with the Experts the more you look foolish and sorry to bust your bubble...but the gentelmen that happen to be in this guild are the best and know the most....now if your to proud, Stuborn, and pig headed to swallow your pride and just admit that you would see through those smudged uneducated glasses your wearing and see more clearly, but that has never been one of your more strong suits anyways....


I use to play Pool or Billiards for a living and played on the Pro-Tour for many years....We use to have a quote that was funny

"If you cant walk into a pool room and spot the sucker within 30 min...You are the Sucker"

Kat on this topic, your the sucker and dont even know it....

Im not trying to be hateful, its just you argue just to argue, and you have no idea what your even talking about and its painfully obvious, your being hateful by not giving credit, where credit is due..

 

[T'Challa]

Ah, the Siege drama goes round and round, and once again nothing will be done because Draxous refuses to change his thirteen year old avatar...

 

[Draxous]

A few things.

I was wrong about one thing. I'm still not even sure that I'm wrong about it but if more than one say so... I'll believe ya. Because all ive ever done while training my stealth tamer is pve. Ive never noticed it. You were wrong about the timers. Had you have made other valid points, they'd still be valid.

I've been playing this game for the last 13 years of my life. Do you even know who I am? I wrote the story in this game. From the beginning. Before you were here. You check the top anything on either server I played and when I was playing there, I was amongst them.

I've just about done did it all. Before my last hiatus, I have just every character class you can think of. Mage, paladin, tamer, thief, mules, abc archer, sampire, assassin, and treasure hunter. Each class with the soul stones to hit all the good templates. The only thing I don't have is a bard. Ironically, a bard was my very first character. BlacK RaiN. When you could provoke NPCs onto players. I deleted him after going red and dying in super deep statloss protesting that change and the removal of precast. I've built player towns. I've run establishments in wintermoor. The most famous player created town in the history of this game. I even built a city here on Siege and called it heaven.

I've been running with and amongst the top tier of my shards since day 1. Do you have any idea what it's like being at the top for 13 years. There are a few like Forsaken who share my story. Even then, I've seen and did things he wishes he could have been around for. Through all the changes. Through all the broken imbalances. Fighting all the gimps and the whole time sticking to a class that is tough to learn and tough to play well.

I've seen, experienced and understand this game in dimensions you couldn't dream about. You take no advantage of a resource like me when it's right infront of you. You cannot manipulate me kat, I'm sorry. You ahve that habbit with a lot of people and you're personal problems with me outweigh our common goal and that is to make this game fun again. I'll keep it playful because I'm being harsh. Nothing personal. We are enemies. You don't like what I have to say. Cool. I'm still staying it.


You've got your 3 low hanging fruit. Good job. Thank you for putting in the work and getting it done. I hope you continue with what you started. I didn't see the boost to monster loot there. I hope it makes it way through.

Stealth on this shard is a problem. I'd like to see giving thieves a bone.

Maybe this is a good reason to make this a game wide solution since they need a bone especially on the other shards.. too. I liked sprees idea. Maybe you thieves to get to the thieves forum and muster up some consensus. Maybe mythics feeling generous and another group of neglected can get some love. I get it as one of you.

I still want to know if this stealth issue/passive detect is low hanging fruit.

As our representative... kat. Could you ask him?

Thanks.

I know theres no love loss here, but after reading your resume....I have one question for you if your definitely all about balance on this shard. Do you think Mage is overpowering and balanced on this shard right now?

I think everything is out of wack on this shard right now because this is an item based game. It is balanced and tailored to the items prodo shard players wear which is the tip top tier of what you can insure.

I think the biggest way to get balance on this shard is to boost monster loot (balance risk versus reward) and lower faction silver costs. Allow both factioners and non-factioners access to appropriate gear and not just the richest of the rich and elitest of the pvpers.

This game is tailored to and designed around that kind of play. That is where you'll find balance.

 

[Monolith]

I think everything is out of wack on this shard right now because this is an item based game. It is balanced and tailored to the items prodo shard players wear which is the tip top tier of what you can insure.

I think the biggest way to get balance on this shard is to boost monster loot (balance risk versus reward) and lower faction silver costs. Allow both factioners and non-factioners access to appropriate gear and not just the richest of the rich and elitest of the pvpers.

This game is tailored to and designed around that kind of play. That is where you'll find balance.

You didn't answer my question......my question is: do you think mage temps on Siege is overpowering? Just like to know your opinion since your talking about balance on Siege.

 

[Draxous]

I think everything is out of wack on this shard right now because this is an item based game. It is balanced and tailored to the items prodo shard players wear which is the tip top tier of what you can insure.

I think the biggest way to get balance on this shard is to boost monster loot (balance risk versus reward) and lower faction silver costs. Allow both factioners and non-factioners access to appropriate gear and not just the richest of the rich and elitest of the pvpers.

This game is tailored to and designed around that kind of play. That is where you'll find balance.

You didn't answer my question......my question is: do you think mage temps on Siege is overpowering? Just like to know your opinion since your talking about balance on Siege.

I think mage temps are one of the few classes that depend on the user more than the game in potency.

You're going to have to explain why you're asking me this, how it relates to this discussion and why you're being so general.

A straight mage? Is pretty under powered. That's why most spell caster type characters today are a hybrid of several classes. Which class are you talking about?

Make some sense or this is my last reply...


PS Ask me if I care what you think of me or what your opinion of me is.

PPS. dreadmares are sick.

Night!

 

[Monolith]

I think mage temps are one of the few classes that depend on the user more than the game in potency.

You're going to have to explain why you're asking me this, how it relates to this discussion and why you're being so general.

A straight mage? Is pretty under powered. That's why most spell caster type characters today are a hybrid of several classes. Which class are you talking about?

Make some sense or this is my last reply...

Well....if you read any of the post you would know what I'm asking. Seems to me that your picking and choosing how your beating around the bush on a mage temp.

It only re-enforces my opinion of you.

 

[Elmer Fudd]

@ Monolith

Im responding to your earlier post about greed and experts...the reason I disagree with the greed pony on this one is, it benefits everyone, not just one guild. If it was to hinder per say one guild, it would be TnT wouldnt it? due in part to the extremely thick concentration of hiders stealthers in that guild, so the greed to keep it would tend to make more sence from the folks who would benifit the most and give the most resisitance to it...

On the Expert side of the coin...I would consider you an expert in PvP and your point and concerns would be weighed in my book pretty heavy...as well as BR,Forsaken,Kage,Sunchicken,Elmer Fudd,Soulweaver,Diablo,Pusher,HugiBear,RP McMurphy,Crunch and many many more hardcore PvPers...in this area,,,the PvPers are the experts, and im not talking about the weekend warrior who gears up in a junk suit has hiding/stealth ninja smoke bomb with an all kill macro being spammed as a pvper....lol

I think you get my point...Kat is not a PvPer and does not have a clue on "Real PvP" Game mechanics...so in a nut shell she talking out her ass and it shows...the reason guys like Forsaken and Kage or Meph and Sunchicken and many more are so much better...is they have a great sence of game mechanics and its boundrys as well as its execution, and they know how to employ those to there fullest advantage...so much so they are called cheats by the underdeveloped person.

So by theory, does the TnT guild come to you for PvP advice? im sure they do....and lets ask ourselves why they do? because your the best PvPer in TnT...and why are you the best? because you have taken the time to learn, employ the knowledge you've learned as well as the lesssons learned by fighting some of the best...doesnt make you a cheat or a hater does it? Of course not....just as much as it doesnt make the very same guys who can beat you any less knowlegable does it? of course not, it prolly makes them higher on the knowledge base then...thats by pure logic alone...so yes...IMO,,,they are the experts and people should trust there opinion a lot more then certain people....

 

[T'Challa]

This thread isn't about who's better @ UO than who...

Wish you guys would get that through your head.

Besides, we've already proven BR isn't the end-all, be-all of UO.

Basically, you guys are saying noone's opinion counts but the pvp'ers.

And you're dead wrong.

 

[John Connelly]

I've been playing this game for the last 13 years of my life. Do you even know who I am? I wrote the story in this game. From the beginning. Before you were here. You check the top anything on either server I played and when I was playing there, I was amongst them.

Tell us again the story of how you used to PvP against 12 people and always won. That one was good for a laugh. Maybe that's why we all need stealth. rolleyes:

 

[Lord_Puffy]

Make passive detect on siege now!

Too many damn stealthers on this shard.

Seems a little late, maybe 2 years ago with rot changes and people may just play there...

 

[Draxous]

This thread isn't about who's better @ UO than who...

Wish you guys would get that through your head.

Besides, we've already proven BR isn't the end-all, be-all of UO.

Basically, you guys are saying noone's opinion counts but the pvp'ers.

And you're dead wrong.

I hope that's not what you're getting/have got out of it.

Sakey and I for example are supporting sprees idea of giving thieves a bone.

What we're saying is that if you're going to make a case for something, back it up with truths and facts. If you're going to criticize, back it up with a constructive alternative.

Do not just tear down and build... nothing.

 

[Afterglow]

as a higher hanging fruit:
get passive detect integrated in a way that fits siege...
maybe have a passive detect always on in towns by npc's (like in minotaur labyrinth) - now you pvp players have your satisfaction and even thiefs have a harder time.
back to good old times with only hiding or casting invisible as option is another thing. as long as we don't have a classic shard and this is our siege we have to cope with the prodo additions raining down on us being forced to adopt it ourselfs

 

[Kat]

I still want to know if this stealth issue/passive detect is low hanging fruit.

As our representative... kat. Could you ask him?

Thanks.

In regard to your entire post, not just what I have quoted above, I do appreciate the change in your demeanor. I think calm and rational discussion will help others take you more seriously regardless of whether or not they agree with your position.

I will have to double check with Bruin on the passive detect request, as he is our designated "communicator" with Cal, but I believe the low hanging fruit has been submitted. I will double check that and if it hasn't, I will relay your request and defer to Bruins decision as to whether or not to include passive detect on that list, since I am probably closer to that issue than he is. Fair enough?

Also... Keep in mind that some or all of the items on the current submission to Cal may not be considered LHF, so in that case, it could be considered again.

Even if it isn't LHF, passive detect could possibly be included when we get down to the more serious changes. Those have yet to be determined.

On an unrelated note, do check out the detect timer. It used to be roughly 10 seconds between uses. It has been reduced to around 5. Whether or not that was an intentional change, I do not know, as it wasn't announced, to my knowledge. It has been shortened, though.

 

[Monolith]

@ Monolith

Im responding to your earlier post about greed and experts...the reason I disagree with the greed pony on this one is, it benefits everyone, not just one guild. If it was to hinder per say one guild, it would be TnT wouldnt it? due in part to the extremely thick concentration of hiders stealthers in that guild, so the greed to keep it would tend to make more sence from the folks who would benifit the most and give the most resisitance to it...

On the Expert side of the coin...I would consider you an expert in PvP and your point and concerns would be weighed in my book pretty heavy...as well as BR,Forsaken,Kage,Sunchicken,Elmer Fudd,Soulweaver,Diablo,Pusher,HugiBear,RP McMurphy,Crunch and many many more hardcore PvPers...in this area,,,the PvPers are the experts, and im not talking about the weekend warrior who gears up in a junk suit has hiding/stealth ninja smoke bomb with an all kill macro being spammed as a pvper....lol

I think you get my point...Kat is not a PvPer and does not have a clue on "Real PvP" Game mechanics...so in a nut shell she talking out her ass and it shows...the reason guys like Forsaken and Kage or Meph and Sunchicken and many more are so much better...is they have a great sence of game mechanics and its boundrys as well as its execution, and they know how to employ those to there fullest advantage...so much so they are called cheats by the underdeveloped person.

So by theory, does the TnT guild come to you for PvP advice? im sure they do....and lets ask ourselves why they do? because your the best PvPer in TnT...and why are you the best? because you have taken the time to learn, employ the knowledge you've learned as well as the lesssons learned by fighting some of the best...doesnt make you a cheat or a hater does it? Of course not....just as much as it doesnt make the very same guys who can beat you any less knowlegable does it? of course not, it prolly makes them higher on the knowledge base then...thats by pure logic alone...so yes...IMO,,,they are the experts and people should trust there opinion a lot more then certain people....

Elmer.....yes, I agree with you, but I still believe greed is a high measurable character when it comes to opinion's on Siege for everyone. Yes.....hide/stealth benefits TNT, but most of your guild don't think players are PVPers unless they run mages. Again, I stated that most of players on UO is around 40 years of age and is not the Nintendo generation and is not that great at hand and eye coordination, Some of us is forced to take breaks from the game due to work which also hinders ou PVP skills. Players like BR and few others who's dedicated 13 years to UO without breaking a beat, damn, they should be great at UO, but still doesn't mean their opinion is best for Siege.

I can see more isssues other than just hide/stealth which BR named a few. I'm not going to post all the issues I think are overpowering until Siege sees some of the new changes we recommended. Also....I can see more PVP challenges if they do ever nerf hiding/stealth. Your guild is the heaviest mage guild on Siege currently. You guys have some damn great mages on Siege. If they do nerf hiding/stealth, you guys will use gimp tactics constantly to dismount and mass on target which gives dexxers no chance of survival without mages in their guild. Ok....TNT is forced to play mages which we only have a couple who is able to play a mage temp, but not great at it. You guys will single out the TNT mage first, dismount.....noone can cross heal the mage, he dies, then you guys use same tactic against the dexxers, now you pwned everyone and BFF rules. Then I'm sure I'll hear from certain players how we suck at PVP and playing a mage.

I also stated that my opinion on mages are overpowering. How is a Disco Mage able to stand in one spot, put protection on, and able to just stand their and heal through a dexxer just because the dexxer is only able to hit maybe 50% of the time. Nerfing hiding/stealth has its pros and cons. Yes....it will hinder a lot of players, but BFF benefits from this since you guys are mostly mages with only few dexxers.

When we speak of a template of being overpowering......I consider whether that template is overpowering 1 vs 1. Me personally, I don't see a template as Monolith's being overpowering. I've fought many of BFF 1 vs 1, I'm not the dominating player.....so this is hard for me to understand that my temp is overpowering. Overpowering to me is.....someone who is the most dominating player due to their temp.

Either way......I really don't care how and what changes they make. I will adapt and overcome. Might not be great, but I can play this game to my enjoyment off and on. Of course I won't be able to dedicate my time to UO as BR. Some of us have a job, family, and responsibilities in life which I'm sure you understand.

I look at this game as a hobby as most of us. This game actaully keeps me out of trouble, hehe. Keeps me home more.

I appreciate your opinion!!

 

[Elmer Fudd]

@ Mono

At this point I guess we have to respectfuly agree to disagree...but was a good chat about it though...

I do understand that seeing a hiding stealthing template as singularly dominating might be difficult to take down a very skilled player...but for the most part it can and will take down most....


@T-Challa

I am saying everyone has an opinion, but in this case where there are 5-10 carpenters standing around trying to figure out water drainage on a roof pitch of a 4/12 going onto a 5/12 near a Dormer thats over the entryway...the plumbers opinion is heard...but really doesnt mean **** now does it?

 

[Draxous]

I still want to know if this stealth issue/passive detect is low hanging fruit.

As our representative... kat. Could you ask him?

Thanks.

In regard to your entire post, not just what I have quoted above, I do appreciate the change in your demeanor. I think calm and rational discussion will help others take you more seriously regardless of whether or not they agree with your position.

I will have to double check with Bruin on the passive detect request, as he is our designated "communicator" with Cal, but I believe the low hanging fruit has been submitted. I will double check that and if it hasn't, I will relay your request and defer to Bruins decision as to whether or not to include passive detect on that list, since I am probably closer to that issue than he is. Fair enough?

Also... Keep in mind that some or all of the items on the current submission to Cal may not be considered LHF, so in that case, it could be considered again.

Even if it isn't LHF, passive detect could possibly be included when we get down to the more serious changes. Those have yet to be determined.

On an unrelated note, do check out the detect timer. It used to be roughly 10 seconds between uses. It has been reduced to around 5. Whether or not that was an intentional change, I do not know, as it wasn't announced, to my knowledge. It has been shortened, though.

You may have missed my post in the other thread because I had the whole thread deleted.

This request wasn't meant for this submission of LHF and in that LHF thread it was said not to let this passive detect stuff deter those 3 things from being submitted, addressed and implemented. From what was written, we were given the impression that those 3 things would be addressed now because they were simple and then later big changes would be considered. No one has argued or contended against this plan of action... so if it hasn't been done yet, you guys are dropping the ball. The community supports you on it.

You mentioned a big change after July -> this fall. If this is LHF fruit than it can easily be added to the request we'll be making later without really impacting anything else that we'd want to ask for. If it is not, then we need to prioritize what's important... from this discussion and that one it is obvious we've identified 2 very important issues.

<named> monster loot boost and passive detect.

No one's here to undo what you, forsaken and bruin had worked together on accomplishing. We're here discussing this because we're interested in following through on what you guys presented us with.

I'm not sure why anyone would have any other impression of what's going on...


To your unrelated comment. I logged in and checked the detect timer versus the hide timer. I was hidden. I detected my alt on my main character and instantly hid again and then waited until I could detect again and sure enough, I was able to re-hide again.

I don't care if the timer is 1 second. This "property" of the two skills is a HUGE balance issue, among the other issues I brought up.

 

[Kat]

Draxous - I spoke with Bruin this morning on the issue and he pointed me to his post in this thread.

Taken from bruins post:

The purpose of me starting this thread/poll was to inquire as to the pulse of Siege regarding passive detect and possibly including this in the 'letter' to Cal regarding low hanging fruit. As it stands now, about only 38% of the voters are in favor of making any immediate changes to passive detect and therefore will not be included.

Also, there is only a slight majority of people, about 58% who do want any form of passive detect change on Siege. It is obviously a hotly debated subject.

This is something that we will have to intelligently discuss in the coming months as to if we want any change on passive detect and if so, how. Only this way can we present something meaningful to the devs that they hopefully will listen and respond to, if we want any changes.

So essentially, passive detect isn't currently on the table because not enough of us agree on that issue at this time. It may, however, be revisited at a later date. In light of that, I will say that we are seeking a real time [hopefully in Vent] meeting with Cal so that we ask some important questions and get clear on some things. We will indeed use that opportunity to ask your question about passive detect.

Further, the poll that Bruin created about the 3 items he, Forsaken, Kelmo and I came up with as potentially new LHF, was to make sure the community backed the new submissions. None of us felt comfortable submitting anything different than was originally discussed after the Siege Meeting with Cal.

The last thing Bruin or any of us want to do, is misrepresent, so in light of that we have to take time to allow people to vote. There has been no dropping of the ball.

 

[nightstalker22]

Passive Detect = 820 Point Templates. Of course I vote no!

Smoke Bomb success should not only be based on Hiding.

Smoke Bomb formula should be:

Hiding + Ninjitsu + Stealth + Dexterity / 5

Ninjitsu must be 80 or higher ( real skill, not jeweled ) to even consider the formula.

A true Ninja will have close to 100% chance success, while stealth tamers will fail about 30% of the time.

Thieves are not ninjas necessarily, so that will eliminate steal and smoke bomb scenerios, unless of course they have the points invested.

 

[Spree]

I used to love to pvp until SA came out, I used to go out and fight every night to guard Iantown. I didn't care if it was 20 people against me I still would do out. Now if it was like pre SA I still would pvp but to have some one red lined they smoke bomb only to come back in force and be gank that isn't fun. I never had a character with the scardy car skills and will never will. as for faction arties . I would like to see faction and their trammies uber armor removed from the shard replace with old choas order all guilds must pick one or the other. If you don't want to fight don't join a guild.

 

[Afterglow]

I would like to see faction and their trammies uber armor removed from the shard replace with old choas order all guilds must pick one or the other. If you don't want to fight don't join a guild.

/signed

 

[archite666]

Do this and I will come back.

Seriously kat , its very funny how supportive you are of change that doest effect your play style.

The thiefs may have a slight leg to stand on but this should be an obvious change.

 

[Monolith]

Do this and I will come back.

Seriously kat , its very funny how supportive you are of change that doest effect your play style.

The thiefs may have a slight leg to stand on but this should be an obvious change.

You've must been gone to long, but I'll let you know something....Kat doesn't even play a stealther. Maybe you should pop in game once in awhile....you might know this.

 

[archite666]

You've must been gone to long, but I'll let you know something....Kat doesn't even play a stealther. Maybe you should pop in game once in awhile....you might know this.

Sorry your right I might be out of the loop, does she play goldie pawn, the leader of tnt? Whose guild has like a 57% average in hiding?

I'm sorry but its this attitude which has killed siege.

You drove people away with your antics and now you want to change other things to bring them back so you can pull your antics again.

Reveal doest work. It takes a group of people to kill one stealther who has invested minimal points, I dont get to invest minimal points in magery, at least make them invest the points and for god sakes nuke stealth tamers.

 

[Ru TnT]

Reveal doest work. It takes a group of people to kill one stealther who has invested minimal points, I dont get to invest minimal points in magery, at least make them invest the points and for god sakes nuke stealth tamers.

Detect hidden works fine, if it is not working then the problem is the player, not the skill. I find it to be odd that most of the "elite" mages on Siege can't figure out how to use a skill as simple as detect.

It may or may not take more than one player to kill a stealther, but the same could be said for most others templates though, right?

No, you don't get to invest minimal points in magery. What mages do get though is a free 120 points in weapon skill, not to mention the wide variety of spells from magery. I'm fairly certain that stealth is alot more balanced than mage weps are.

Get rid of mage weps and give me back my 60 damage DS without needing 100hide/120stealth, then i'd be ok with the passive detect being added.

 

[Freelsy]

I used to love to pvp until SA came out, I used to go out and fight every night to guard Iantown. I didn't care if it was 20 people against me I still would do out. Now if it was like pre SA I still would pvp but to have some one red lined they smoke bomb only to come back in force and be gank that isn't fun. I never had a character with the scardy car skills and will never will. as for faction arties . I would like to see faction and their trammies uber armor removed from the shard replace with old choas order all guilds must pick one or the other. If you don't want to fight don't join a guild.

So now its SA that killed pvp on Siege? LOL, I thought it was the faction artifacts? Or wait, I thought it was introduction of cursed arties. Wait a second, I'm wrong again... Wasn't it the introduction of AOS? Hang on a second... I think what killed pvp was the changes with pub 16?

See what I'm getting at here? SA made it easier for individuals, like yourself, to go out and compete with everyone else. Stop blaming the game for your failure at (pvm, pvp, role playing...whatever it may be.)

 

[Førsaken]

Detect hidden works fine, if it is not working then the problem is the player, not the skill. I find it to be odd that most of the "elite" mages on Siege can't figure out how to use a skill as simple as detect.

It may or may not take more than one player to kill a stealther, but the same could be said for most others templates though, right?

No, you don't get to invest minimal points in magery. What mages do get though is a free 120 points in weapon skill, not to mention the wide variety of spells from magery. I'm fairly certain that stealth is alot more balanced than mage weps are.

Get rid of mage weps and give me back my 60 damage DS without needing 100hide/120stealth, then i'd be ok with the passive detect being added.

I like how you people are still attempting to make an argument about this. Your set of; Hide, Stealth, Ninjitsu compliment your templates, Detect on a mage/full dexxer DOES NOT.

You get: Smoke bombs, shurikens, fukiyas, death strike, greater dragons.

Others get: A seldom chance of detecting someone, only to see them run off/smoke bomb/hide-stealth off.

Good arguments, keep up the good work. Lets all just run stealth templates and be assassins like Ru here, being people seem to love using him and his character setup as an example!

 

[Draxous]

Detect hidden works fine, if it is not working then the problem is the player, not the skill. I find it to be odd that most of the "elite" mages on Siege can't figure out how to use a skill as simple as detect.

It may or may not take more than one player to kill a stealther, but the same could be said for most others templates though, right?

No, you don't get to invest minimal points in magery. What mages do get though is a free 120 points in weapon skill, not to mention the wide variety of spells from magery. I'm fairly certain that stealth is alot more balanced than mage weps are.

Get rid of mage weps and give me back my 60 damage DS without needing 100hide/120stealth, then i'd be ok with the passive detect being added.

I like how you people are still attempting to make an argument about this. Your set of; Hide, Stealth, Ninjitsu compliment your templates, Detect on a mage/full dexxer DOES NOT.

You get: Smoke bombs, shurikens, fukiyas, death strike, greater dragons.

Others get: A seldom chance of detecting someone, only to see them run off/smoke bomb/hide-stealth off.

Good arguments, keep up the good work. Lets all just run stealth templates and be assassins like Ru here, being people seem to love using him and his character setup as an example!

You, Kat and Bruin are our community reps. I'm not sure why Kelmos there (maybe to mediate... haha) but you 3 represent a segment of our community.

I see that 2 of our community representatives think this is an issue. You and bruin. And you both have presented possible solutions. The sheer heat of this debate highlights that there is no other issue besides named monster loot (where all 3 agree it's an issue) that is as important to the siege community. If someone disagrees with this statement, point me to a bigger issue.

I posted a thread about a new idea because I thought we had been passed this. Kat and Mono lambasted me for it. I don't see any other topics being talked about with this kinda fervor so there's no way in hell this won't be put on the list. Considering we have the possibility of big changes coming in july... I am going to assume the community expects our representatives to address the issues that are most important to us and have the most important ones addressed first.

There have been several suggestions to this hide/stealth problem proposed. If anyone does not like the solutions presented, it is their job to come up with a better one for us to talk about. If no one comes up with a better one, then we go with the best one we've got and leave the rest up to Cal to decide how he wants to fix it.

I'm not worried about this at all. It will be addressed or another block of UO players will leave along with the block looking at this as their opportunity to come back and enjoy themselves here again...

This is the last chance. If this shard isn't fixed this go around, several of us are done. Which would be "dropping the ball" since the whole reason this entire community rep/discussion with cal/whatever has come up is the fact that many are not playing OR coming here to play because it's not hard to see why you wouldn't want to.

You 3 are our voices, not drowned out by the selfish noise spewed on this public place. Do not let us down.

You each have enough experience and respect from your peers to get the job done. We're counting on you.

PS. We've cited reasons and broken them down to the very mechanics as to why hiding/stealth is an issue. They have not disputed any of our claims. It's pretty obvious to anyone reading this thread that it's an issue... the ones upset about this coming here saying "its not an issue" without ever explaining why the issues those that do have brought up - are wrong.

 

[nightstalker22]

If Passive Detect were to be added, which I am totally against, I would suggest that it only work if the player is visible, so there are not mine fields of invisible detectors for thieves to wade through as they approach their mark. Further, I would put a 10 second timer on passive detect, meaning, if you were invisible and you are revealed, come out of hiding, or your invis timer runs out, you will not have passive detect for 10 seconds following your appearance. That would give thieves a chance to approach their newly visible mark without issue, and it would block stealth tamers from passively revealing anyone approaching them when they yell, "all kill" then hide again, as they will have to be visible 10 seconds before they could begin to detect, and they cant detect while hidden ( without using the actuall skill ).

 

[Monolith]

I like how you people are still attempting to make an argument about this. Your set of; Hide, Stealth, Ninjitsu compliment your templates, Detect on a mage/full dexxer DOES NOT.

You get: Smoke bombs, shurikens, fukiyas, death strike, greater dragons.

Others get: A seldom chance of detecting someone, only to see them run off/smoke bomb/hide-stealth off.

Good arguments, keep up the good work. Lets all just run stealth templates and be assassins like Ru here, being people seem to love using him and his character setup as an example!

You of all people have criticised people for playing anything but a mage temp. Attitude like this from you makes it hard for players to believe if your opinions are best for Siege or just for you. You definitely have so much to gain from passive detect.

 

[Ru TnT]

I like how you people are still attempting to make an argument about this. Your set of; Hide, Stealth, Ninjitsu compliment your templates, Detect on a mage/full dexxer DOES NOT.

You get: Smoke bombs, shurikens, fukiyas, death strike, greater dragons.

Others get: A seldom chance of detecting someone, only to see them run off/smoke bomb/hide-stealth off.

Good arguments, keep up the good work. Lets all just run stealth templates and be assassins like Ru here, being people seem to love using him and his character setup as an example!

Well, your stealth issues don't exist with a character setup like mine, so it is a pretty decent example. It is the balance you all want for stealth, passive detect is not balance.

This game give us the freedom to make any template we want. If you choose to play a certain template, you should expect it to have both advantages and disadvantages. I know that there are plenty of overpowered things in the game, but declaring something an issue because you don't know how to/refuse to utilize the available tools for dealing with said issue is just plain silly. It's even sillier that when given the rare opportunity of having a dev's attention, people are crusading for this, and not something else that would make a difference for the survival of Siege.

 

[John Connelly]

This game give us the freedom to make any template we want. If you choose to play a certain template, you should expect it to have both advantages and disadvantages. I know that there are plenty of overpowered things in the game, but declaring something an issue because you don't know how to/refuse to utilize the available tools for dealing with said issue is just plain silly. It's even sillier that when given the rare opportunity of having a dev's attention, people are crusading for this, and not something else that would make a difference for the survival of Siege.

Agreed

 

[Ru TnT]

PS. We've cited reasons and broken them down to the very mechanics as to why hiding/stealth is an issue. They have not disputed any of our claims. It's pretty obvious to anyone reading this thread that it's an issue... the ones upset about this coming here saying "its not an issue" without ever explaining why the issues those that do have brought up - are wrong.

I dispute them.

With the current Siege ruleset, all "your" issues with stealth can be dealt with in multiple ways. Learning how to use the tools available in game would help you realize how wrong you are.

From reading a few of your posts I have to assume that you either have not used the detect hidden skill, didn't reveal someone after trying once, or just can't fit the skill into your template. None of these reasons make stealth an issue.

If you'd like help learning how to deal with a stealther, I could give ya some tips, it's not going to be the "something for nothing" you're fighting for though.

 

[Førsaken]

LOLOL LETS ALL PLAY ASSASSINS AND STEALTHERS WOOT, IT'S THE BEST! LETS IGNORE THE "PVPERS" THAT ACTUALLY PLAY ON PASSIVE DETECT SERVERS AND STILL OWN FACE ON THEIR STEALTH BOKS AND ANYTHING ELSE STEALTH RELATED!



p.s. You all still fail at an argument, let me know when you're ready to man up.

 

[Bo Bo]

Ru all those tools you say you use to kill stealthers are bogus. You forgot to mention that your main tool is numbers to kill your opponents. Since Bo put stealth back on Bo hasnt died and has killed alot of your guildies. That is over 3-4 weeks, Bo doesnt plan on dieing anytime soon. The only time Bo would die in the past was when Bo would be overly aggressive. Bo killed your mates right infront of you at an idoc the other day. Sure you revealed Bo once, and the rest of the time y'all were baffled.