[OOC] The Death of Queen Dawn.

[WarderDragon]

The Death of Queen Dawn

The Queen of Britannia has fallen. Murdered. Her life and love stolen through the Corrupting powers of Virtue Bane.

Who will rise in her stead? Who should rise in her stead?

Who is leading Britannia in the absence of the Queen on Your Shard? What are the RPers / EMs doing to represent the Chaos and the Vaccum that has erupted in with her demise?

Discuss.

 

[sablestorm]

Mesanna was asking for suggestions for Easter last night. I suggested the resurrection of Queen Dawn.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

It was the wrong decision, I think, to kill her in the first place. Bringing her back would, I also think, just make it worse.

That's the first thing to remember. The second thing to remember is that many people on Stratics, if not in the game proper, will find a reason to hate whomever they put up. And the third is that whomever we get has to be with us for the foreseeable future. That means that probably there should be no evil dictatorships for a number of years.

Here are the viable options as I see them.

Option One: Player-run governments, differs by shard. No. Just no.

Option Two: Bring back some NPC from Ultima's or UO's past. Dupre would be a good choice, lots of people would rally around him. Shamino, Mariah. You get the idea. Please not a Baron Levonshire (am I getting that name right?) type figure.

Option Three: New Ruling Council. I'd suggest mostly staffing it with the surviving NPCs from Ultima/UO lore, such as Shamino and Dupre and Geoffrey. Rounding it out with some new NPCs and EM-played NPCs. The two primary characters of the GL EMs would be great on the Ruling Council.

Option Four: No central government, or rather an extremely minimal one, one with no particular head. Just a small, central bureaucracy that does stuff like collect just enough taxes to keep itself alive, and pull together a smattering of resources to handle grave, national threats, and keep a minimal centralized Guard, intelligence, and diplomatic presences. A minimal government by the surviving bureaucrats, ruling ad hoc. Most political activity recedes back to the towns. This is probably the least viable of the viable options.

Option Five: Takeover by a foreign power. Queen Zhah would be good. The Empress of Tokuno would be weird given that she's never really been developed in the official fiction. Or the Mayor of Luna. (On the latter: No. No. No.) A major problem of course is how to get people to go along with it?

-Galen's player

 

[siyeng0]

It's about time that iridescent ingenue met her end. I would not put my faith in her to run a bakery, let alone a kingdom, and in the end she proved herself unworthy of the task. She trusted too much! She trusted! Trust! There is no room for that in the game of rulership. Real leaders trust nobody.

I recommend a council, headed by Nicholas the Old, and peopled by a dozen clones of that same illustrious gentleman. Your ridiculous realm has been on the brink of ruin for as long as I remember, and shuffling your higher echelon of government about is not going to fix anything. If we must have a ruler, let him be an attractive one; Dawn was not respectable, she was not admirable, she was not pleasant to listen to, she was not nice to look at, she had atrocious fashion sense, she died pitifully, and she was, in her entirety, a tragic yellow failure.

(I am going to drag my IC into your OOC and you are going to LIKE IT)

 

[WarderDragon]

And the third is that whomever we get has to be with us for the foreseeable future. That means that probably there should be no evil dictatorships for a number of years.

Option Two: Bring back some NPC from Ultima's or UO's past. Dupre would be a good choice, lots of people would rally around him. Shamino, Mariah. You get the idea. Please not a Baron Levonshire (am I getting that name right?) type figure.

Mm. I disagree.

The Queen left no apparent heir. No Great Council. None to rule in her stead. The Corrupt Nobles and Aristocrats of Britannia should all be clamouring to establish power and - perhaps - nominate themselves as the next reigning monarch.

Flawed and immoral characters are more intriguing to me. I prefer the Perfect King and the Flawless Dame left to bed time stories.

I recommend a council, headed by Nicholas the Old, ...

The last handsome monarch ended up immortalized on Lindae's Wall.

I shall leave that dubious honor to another.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Mm. I disagree.

With what? I was stating which options I found viable, not which options you would like....Are you saying you disagree that those are viable options? Stating that other options are viable?

The Queen left no apparent heir.

Nor did British....

No Great Council.

Well I guess British did leave a Council kind of, though he didn't appear to care all that much about the specifics, preoccupied as he was with how glorious it'd be to "sacrifice" himself by guarding whatever the artifact was in the Ethereal Void.

None to rule in her stead. The Corrupt Nobles and Aristocrats of Britannia should all be clamouring to establish power and - perhaps - nominate themselves as the next reigning monarch.

Well we can safely assume that's happening; in GL's EM events we're even getting glimpses of it.

But, again, I thought this was an OOC "storyline" thread.

Flawed and immoral characters are more intriguing to me. I prefer the Perfect King and the Flawless Dame left to bed time stories.

Umm.....I don't know where you're getting "Perfect" and "Flawless" from my post. I seriously don't.

I outlined the options I found viable. *shrugs*

-Galen's player

 

[siyeng0]

The last handsome monarch ended up immortalized on Lindae's Wall.
I shall leave that dubious honor to another.

There was no more room on my wall between all the etchings of that idiotic fey strutting about and pointing his buttocks at me seductively, so I drew you on the ceiling. You stare down at me all night with sultry, judgemental eyes. But that is beside the point. The point is something about Dawn. Who is dead. Ah, yes! Dawn is dead! Splendid.

...

LINDAE FOR QUEEN


OOC: I think EMs should be allowed to make individual monarch characters on each shard that wants a single ruler. It would personalise the shards and differentiate their lore and history. Any shards that don't want any more royalty-related events can just vote to have ownership of the Kingdom handed back to a vaguely defined "council" and can go back to their PvP tournaments / ogre invasions / elf-cooking competitions.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

OOC: I think EMs should be allowed to make individual monarch characters on each shard that wants a single ruler. It would personalise the shards and differentiate their lore and history. Any shards that don't want any more royalty-related events can just vote to have ownership of the Kingdom handed back to a vaguely defined "council" and can go back to their PvP tournaments / ogre invasions / elf-cooking competitions.

I have my doubts this is viable. I think it may make it too hard to design and implement meta-game storylines.

Straying beyond viability into the realm of personal preference....Eh. Just something about it I don't like, that I can't quit think of the words to explain.

-Galen's player

 

[WarderDragon]

Mm. Then I shall elaborate.

I disagree with the statement that a Baron Lenshire - or a flawed and amoral aristocrat - would be a bad choice for the fictional Britannian monarch.

It is an opinion. One which stems from the different philosophical standpoints we possess in regards to the Fiction. I offer that opinion not as a point of insult but a prompt for discussion and debate.

What people seem to want - and this is a general statement directed at no one - is another Lord British. But Lord British was too perfect. Too moral. That is fine when the Protagonist is the Monarch. But that is not the case here. The monarch is the foil. We are the protagonists.

 

[siyeng0]

What people seem to want - and this is a general statement directed at no one - is another Lord British. But Lord British was too perfect. Too moral. That is fine when the Protagonist is the Monarch. But that is not the case here. The monarch is the foil. We are the protagonists.

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. Having a British would be fine if - as in the British days - you had a dev team singlemindedly dedicated to providing an engaging and exciting storyline, with the monarch character just acting as expositor to coax the players from point A to B. But the game has evolved since then and, given the storyline over the past five years, I think it's safe to say that the plotline is no longer their main priority. It's a priority, sure, but not the main one.

So we either need a monarch who remains completely in the background - just a figurehead for the unseen Council who's trotted out to knight somebody or found an orphanage every now and then - with no bearing on events, or one in an active role to engage the players. That active role pretty much has to be antagonistic, because I don't have faith that there's anybody at the EA offices with the time or the skill to write a protagonist that will interest the community enough to overcome their resentment at having to play second fiddle in somebody else's game.

It would be tricky to come up with a new evil monarch without re-treading new ground, though; Blackthorne and Casca pretty much covered all that there is to cover, while also overlapping considerably. The problem is that creating any character interesting enough to carry a plotline takes significant skill on the part of the writers, and... well...

Although I don't think we've had a theocratic overlord yet.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Mm. Then I shall elaborate.

I disagree with the statement that a Baron Lenshire - or a flawed and amoral aristocrat - would be a bad choice for the fictional Britannian monarch.

It is an opinion. One which stems from the different philosophical standpoints we possess in regards to the Fiction. I offer that opinion not as a point of insult but a prompt for discussion and debate.

What people seem to want - and this is a general statement directed at no one - is another Lord British. But Lord British was too perfect. Too moral. That is fine when the Protagonist is the Monarch. But that is not the case here. The monarch is the foil. We are the protagonists.

I think a good monarch is a better storyline choice for the following reasons.

First of all, that's the kind of environment UO, and Ultima before it, is. This just isn't a "life in Mordor" campaign setting. The times of oppression are the aberrations, not the norm.

Secondly, we've already had a bad guy monarch (Casca) in the comparatively recent past; it would feel trite if we had another so soon.

Thirdly, I don't see any good reason for the monarch to be an antagonist; that implies that sooner or later we defeat him, and this goes back to two: This has happened. Very recently. Casca was only finally deposed in the days leading up to or following the introduction of the Stygian Abyss expansion.

Fourthly, and finally, an oppressive monarch almost by definition interferes in our characters' lives more. While not a bad thing in and of itself, assuming of course we haven't seen a similar situation in the recent past (which we have!), it does mean that it, potentially, provides us with more direction in our characters' day to day lives. And that means less sandbox....Every good character has a certain obligation to spend a good % of his or her time opposing the oppressive monarch in some way. Now, again less, sandbox isn't necessarily a bad thing but in providing content UO's always walked a fine line between providing too much of a sandbox (to the point of boredom) and enough actual content as to make it not recognizable as a sandbox.

Now again, none of this is saying such a thing can't be, or isn't, your preference. But I don't see how it's good for the environment.

Ultimately, of course, I freely admit that my analysis is tainted by my preferences. As it must be.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

This thread has me thinking again about something I'd long thought of but had allowed to recede in my head.

What if the Britannian Crown wasn't taken over by evil of malicious forces, but just....receded.

Would the effect be similar to the collapse of the Roman Empire on Europe (the Dark Ages resulted), but on a smaller, less catastrophic (but still unpleasant) scale?

-Galen's player

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Uhm, not to put too fine a point on it, but Lord British wasn't a paragon of morality. At. All.

Remember, he was willing to destroy countless worlds (and their people) because some glowy guy told him it was a good idea. In Ultima VI, we learn that he is having an affair with one of his servants, and in Ultima VII we find out that an illegitimate child was born. Yeah, fine upstanding monarch there

LB was far from perfect, but he was also boring as hell.


A player-run government would NEVER work. The only way to make it 'fair' would to hold a shard-wide, account-bound election. Now, while that sounds equitable, do YOU really want King Kewl Dewd? I can see it now, the King's first proclamation: "U mst tlk liek dis, broz."

Ruling Council would be boring. Just blah. Most people have trouble following the handful of important characters now, they won't follow the introduction of a dozen more.

Having an EM King/Queen which is different on every shard would be fun, but insanely confusing. Especially to those who play multiple shards. This could also run afoul of metafiction, just think of all the impersonal pronouns that would have to be used when referencing the...leader.

"Today, Our Liege proclaims thusly..."

"The monarch crept barefoot down the worn stone hallway, carefully staying in the shadows. S/He knew the assassin was not far behind..."

Personally, I’d rather not complicate their already…uhm…special writing ability any further.


It’s pretty much going to need to be a character from UO’s past for two reasons:

1) Name recognition
2) Believability

Shamino would be my leading candidate. He used to be a king before the Shattering, and has a proven love of Britannia.

Iolo wouldn’t be a bad choice, but he’s also the oldest of the Companions…

While Dupre would be an interesting choice, I think he’d rather be out battling evil.

Mariah could be interesting, if we want another monarch skilled in magic and the arcane.

Katrina would tie into the restoration of Humility, but many people might whine that she’s ‘just a shepherd.’

Sherry would be an amusing choice, though she’d need a new special graphic. A tiny crown between her ears… Maybe a little red, fur-trimmed cloak as well.


EDIT: And no, no more evil monarchs. Once "we" know they are evil and could prove it, a revolt should be swift and brutal. Except for the fact that not all shards follow the same rules, and Mythic fiction tends to go at a glacial pace. I.e. Casca - on some shards he was evil from the start, on others it took time.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

True Dupre would rather be out fighting, but so would have Dawn....

I actually like Shamino more than Dupre now that you mention him. (Though I didn't know until I read this article just now that he left a woman behind and was named after a brand of bicycle gears.) I floated Dupre because he's always been popular with the players.

But, let's face it, he's somewhat unreliable. He's supposed to be in charge of the TB Faction, but Galen's never seen 'im there.

In fact the last time I remember seeing him was in the comic book that gave Dawn's backstory. He should come back for long enough to bid respects to the lady who once guarded his back against the Juka.

-Galen's player

Uhm, not to put too fine a point on it, but Lord British wasn't a paragon of morality. At. All.

Remember, he was willing to destroy countless worlds (and their people) because some glowy guy told him it was a good idea. In Ultima VI, we learn that he is having an affair with one of his servants, and in Ultima VII we find out that an illegitimate child was born. Yeah, fine upstanding monarch there

LB was far from perfect, but he was also boring as hell.


A player-run government would NEVER work. The only way to make it 'fair' would to hold a shard-wide, account-bound election. Now, while that sounds equitable, do YOU really want King Kewl Dewd? I can see it now, the King's first proclamation: "U mst tlk liek dis, broz."

Ruling Council would be boring. Just blah. Most people have trouble following the handful of important characters now, they won't follow the introduction of a dozen more.

Having an EM King/Queen which is different on every shard would be fun, but insanely confusing. Especially to those who play multiple shards. This could also run afoul of metafiction, just think of all the impersonal pronouns that would have to be used when referencing the...leader.

"Today, Our Liege proclaims thusly..."

"The monarch crept barefoot down the worn stone hallway, carefully staying in the shadows. S/He knew the assassin was not far behind..."

Personally, I’d rather not complicate their already…uhm…special writing ability any further.


It’s pretty much going to need to be a character from UO’s past for two reasons:

1) Name recognition
2) Believability

Shamino would be my leading candidate. He used to be a king before the Shattering, and has a proven love of Britannia.

Iolo wouldn’t be a bad choice, but he’s also the oldest of the Companions…

While Dupre would be an interesting choice, I think he’d rather be out battling evil.

Mariah could be interesting, if we want another monarch skilled in magic and the arcane.

Katrina would tie into the restoration of Humility, but many people might whine that she’s ‘just a shepherd.’

Sherry would be an amusing choice, though she’d need a new special graphic. A tiny crown between her ears… Maybe a little red, fur-trimmed cloak as well.


EDIT: And no, no more evil monarchs. Once "we" know they are evil and could prove it, a revolt should be swift and brutal. Except for the fact that not all shards follow the same rules, and Mythic fiction tends to go at a glacial pace. I.e. Casca - on some shards he was evil from the start, on others it took time.

 

[Viquire]

Perhaps a return to city states in alliances in flux would allow us to explore the individual attributes (like virtues) that make each unique and explore the ties each formally has to crafters and warriors, paladins, mages etc and allow us to build a historical backstory on which to press forward toward reunification of a sort down the road.

True Dupre would rather be out fighting, but so would have Dawn....

I actually like Shamino more than Dupre now that you mention him. (Though I didn't know until I read this article just now that he left a woman behind and was named after a brand of bicycle gears.) I floated Dupre because he's always been popular with the players.

But, let's face it, he's somewhat unreliable. He's supposed to be in charge of the TB Faction, but I Galen's never seen 'im there.

In fact the last time I remember seeing him was in the comic book that gave Dawn's backstory. He should come back for long enough to bid respects to the lady who once guarded his back against the Juka.

-Galen's player

Uhm, not to put too fine a point on it, but Lord British wasn't a paragon of morality. At. All.

Remember, he was willing to destroy countless worlds (and their people) because some glowy guy told him it was a good idea. In Ultima VI, we learn that he is having an affair with one of his servants, and in Ultima VII we find out that an illegitimate child was born. Yeah, fine upstanding monarch there

LB was far from perfect, but he was also boring as hell.


A player-run government would NEVER work. The only way to make it 'fair' would to hold a shard-wide, account-bound election. Now, while that sounds equitable, do YOU really want King Kewl Dewd? I can see it now, the King's first proclamation: "U mst tlk liek dis, broz."

Ruling Council would be boring. Just blah. Most people have trouble following the handful of important characters now, they won't follow the introduction of a dozen more.

Having an EM King/Queen which is different on every shard would be fun, but insanely confusing. Especially to those who play multiple shards. This could also run afoul of metafiction, just think of all the impersonal pronouns that would have to be used when referencing the...leader.

"Today, Our Liege proclaims thusly..."

"The monarch crept barefoot down the worn stone hallway, carefully staying in the shadows. S/He knew the assassin was not far behind..."

Personally, I’d rather not complicate their already…uhm…special writing ability any further.


It’s pretty much going to need to be a character from UO’s past for two reasons:

1) Name recognition
2) Believability

Shamino would be my leading candidate. He used to be a king before the Shattering, and has a proven love of Britannia.

Iolo wouldn’t be a bad choice, but he’s also the oldest of the Companions…

While Dupre would be an interesting choice, I think he’d rather be out battling evil.

Mariah could be interesting, if we want another monarch skilled in magic and the arcane.

Katrina would tie into the restoration of Humility, but many people might whine that she’s ‘just a shepherd.’

Sherry would be an amusing choice, though she’d need a new special graphic. A tiny crown between her ears… Maybe a little red, fur-trimmed cloak as well.


EDIT: And no, no more evil monarchs. Once "we" know they are evil and could prove it, a revolt should be swift and brutal. Except for the fact that not all shards follow the same rules, and Mythic fiction tends to go at a glacial pace. I.e. Casca - on some shards he was evil from the start, on others it took time.

 

[Whitestar4016]

Remember as we played the old ultima games as the Avatar that saved Brittani. How bout we bring him back. (as a NPC of course) He would have all the positive virtues that we would like. Be a good rallying King and would have few negative traits. Just a thought. And of course his name would be "Avatar" Perhaps return of the Guardian as well.
Enjoy and Live Well

 

[siyeng0]

He would have all the positive virtues that we would like. Be a good rallying King and would have few negative traits.

I'm pretty sure that's what they were going for with Dawn. Unfortunately, characters that are one hundred percent pure and virtuous are boring.

Although, on the other hand, they're not so boring if they're paired with a polar opposite. When is the last time that we had a real, despicable, well-defined, well-written* villain to oppose our saintly characters? More importantly, when was the last time that we had an evil character that players had the opportunity to side with? I've only been around for seven years; can someone more experienced answer this? They were sort of playing with the concept of taking sides during the War of Shadows, but that part of the story just faded away with the loss of Draconi.**

I'd be happy with a purely good monarch if we also got a damnably good villain and a choice about who to support. Variety is the spice of life.


*herein lies a problem

**What a loss that was. Some things that Draconi did drove me crazy during that plotline, but damn, do I miss him now that he's gone. He had real passion.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I'm pretty sure that's what they were going for with Dawn. Unfortunately, characters that are one hundred percent pure and virtuous are boring.

Although, on the other hand, they're not so boring if they're paired with a polar opposite. When is the last time that we had a real, despicable, well-defined, well-written* villain to oppose our saintly characters? More importantly, when was the last time that we had an evil character that players had the opportunity to side with? I've only been around for seven years; can someone more experienced answer this? They were sort of playing with the concept of taking sides during the War of Shadows, but that part of the story just faded away with the loss of Draconi.**

I'd be happy with a purely good monarch if we also got a damnably good villain and a choice about who to support. Variety is the spice of life.


*herein lies a problem

**What a loss that was. Some things that Draconi did drove me crazy during that plotline, but damn, do I miss him now that he's gone. He had real passion.

You can actually side with Virtuebane right now.....

-Galen's player

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Weeeeeeell....

If Mythic brought 'The Avatar' into UO as a king or whatever, he would come with a polar opposite by definition: The Guardian.

However, I'd rather that never happen. I personally don't believe that UO should stray into Ultima VII+ territory. I just don't believe anyone at Mythic has the cojones to write a good story arc that wouldn't make us want to riot.

After Virtuebane is put down, UO should go its own route and come up with new villians and monsters-of-the-week.

Sadly, I know the Guardian is coming.

*sharpens fillet knife*

 

[WarderDragon]

The distinction between amoral and antagonist is lost upon some.

I would favor an amoral - or even evil - monarch because such a character has the chance to change. To develop. To become Good.

Were I thrust in the role of developing the Fictional Path of UO - based on what has happened - I would begin with the descent into Chaos. It should be happening. No Medieval - nor Fictional - Civilization was so apathetic or peaceful in the wake of their monarch being assassinated.

The character to rise in this period would be the Lawful Evil Overlord. Someone less in the vein of Aragorn and more in the vein of Elric of Melnibone. He might have good intentions. But the road to hell is paved with such things. To him the end justifies the means. Assassination. Execution. Genocide.

Insert Child Prince. The Lost Son of Cantabrigian or Dawn. Young. Inexperienced. Wisdom might implore the Evil Overlord to eliminate his future rival. But Compassion prompts him to adopt the whelp and raise him to be the Future of Britannia.

This.

Enter Antagonist. The Elemental Titans. The Guardian. The Big Bad. He captures the Child Prince. The Evil Overlord - for all his Vices - cannot bear to see the much more Evil Antagonist win or his surrogate son die. He finds Redemption. But Redemption Equals Death. Child Prince is Crowned. We become his Stewards and Protectors.

What I described should have been Casca / Dawn. It was suggested more than once that Casca - for all his Corruption - was once Good. Virtuous. I would have rather seen the character disappear in the last hours as the strange hold of the Shadowlords had weakened. Had the character reappear in the last moments and sacrifice himself. Perhaps named Dawn his successor as he died. Current fiction - and what I seem the inferior interpretation of some - mandates Good Characters must be Virtuous and Incorruptable and Evil Characters can never show Compassion. Valor. Nobility.

I would not favor a Dupre or a Shamino - not because the characters are not good choices and not because I believe the characters could not be written well; but because of the reactions people will have. Lets face it. The people writing our fiction are new to Ultima. We have 13 Years on them. 30 counting the Ultima Series. If Iolo or Shamino was misrepresented people would be ...displeased.

I would favor the creation of new characters and new figures. Let Ultima be Ultima. Let Ultima Online be Ultima Online. Same Fictional Universe. Same Fictional Conventions. New Characters. New Villains. New Lore.

 

[WarderDragon]

First of all, that's the kind of environment UO, and Ultima before it, is. This just isn't a "life in Mordor" campaign setting. The times of oppression are the aberrations, not the norm.

I would disagree.

The Breaking of the World. Civilizations of Man disappearing overnight. Continents lost beneath the waves. The Kingdom has been brought to the edge of extinction more than once.

War. Famine. Genocide.

The Fellowship. The Cult of Armageddon. Dark Gods who could corrupt an entire population and cause them to turn upon one another. Dark Gods that feed on mans Hatreds and Fears. The Guardian - were he to emerge - would be less on the scale of Sauron and more in the vein of Lovecraft.

We possess a magic that - in the worlds of the lore - bears with it the promise of Addiction. Damnation. The Corruption of Ones Soul.

Religion. Deep Philosophical and Moral Issues. Ultima is not Merrie England. Nor the Ghibli Hills. Our Fictional Universe is much less Black and White and much more Mature.

This thread has me thinking again about something I'd long thought of but had allowed to recede in my head.

What if the Britannian Crown wasn't taken over by evil of malicious forces, but just....receded.

Would the effect be similar to the collapse of the Roman Empire on Europe (the Dark Ages resulted), but on a smaller, less catastrophic (but still unpleasant) scale?

I would favor this.

Not the disappearance of Britannia. But perhaps we loose ground. Perhaps the Magincian Senate is restored - aligned with the Rogue Council of Mages - and forms a Civilization counter to Britannia. Persia to our Greece. Carthage to our Rome.

Perhaps the Sultan of Nujel'm - if such a man exists - separates and forms his own Sultanate. Fertile Soil for content based in and around the Arabian Nights.

 

[siyeng0]

I would personally love to see civilisation collapse, all the cities descend into lawlessness, and new player-run shanty towns crop up all over the place, later to develop into cities of their own as the old ones crumbled into ruin and were overrun by monsters.

But the dev team would not be prepared to go that far; and to be honest, the players wouldn't be prepared to RP it all the way through, either.