Mastery Question

[Bort of Atlantic]

If I run mastery on a dexer with low mana for example, and I eat a mana vamp or use a special ability that puts me at just a few mana, will the mastery end at that point (and require me to recast it to keep it going)?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Poo]

the mastery ends when there is not enough mana in your pool for the upkeep.

so as long as you stay above the min in mana required to keep it going it will keep going.

increasing your mana via a spellbook or armor from my experience hasn't changed that at all, just as long as that pool of mana is there when it does its check.

 

[Bort of Atlantic]

Thanks Poo. Has anyone tried this as a wraith (dexer)? I run with ~40 mana and would hate to swap my template around and not be able to keep tribulation going.

 

[Poo]

here's the thing.

Tribulation takes 24 mana to crank up, then 11 mana ever tick.
so thats what, every 2 seconds?

you have 40 mana (pool)

so you crank up the spell, then 2 seconds later another 11 so we are at 35 mana, theres your pool.
so you will have to replace that loss in mana in 2 seconds to keep the spell up, no?

now, if your running in and swinging a lot, ok, but to stack some specials in with that..... i dont see it happening.

though it would be interesting to try to get it too work.

now, if you where to say have 40LMC on your suit and some phat MR like 14 or 16 coupled with med on your template and a leeching weapon to boot (besides the wraith) then i think a fella could pull that off with no problem.

the only problem i see then would be keeping enough spawn around you to keep you recharged.

and keep in mind that there are some spawns that dont give you mana back, eh.

food for thought.

 

[Poo]

im just sitting here thinking.

my bushy macer, i recentlly reworked his suit and weapons.
i gave him 40 LMC and a boat load of MR and then nutted up his maces with mana regen.

now he can drop stuff spamming lighting stike and AI and keep his mana tank full most of the time.
BUT, there are times when the mana leech dosnt hit.
and he bottoms out.
and of course when you get mana dumped from the casting spawns.
as soon as you get hit with the vamp or dump and hit 0, bang your tribulation is off and you will need to get back up to 24 to just recast it, let alone be ready for the first tick again.

hmmmmm..... still thinking....

 

[Poo]

im tempted to move necro over to my macer and try out the wraith just to see if i can keep the mana topped up.

vamp to keep your HP topped up, or wraith to keep your mana topped up..... decisions decisions!!!

 

[Bort of Atlantic]

im tempted to move necro over to my macer and try out the wraith just to see if i can keep the mana topped up.

vamp to keep your HP topped up, or wraith to keep your mana topped up..... decisions decisions!!!

This template/question isn't really for spawns btw, but I can still see a wraith doing ok via whirlwind. This is more for taking on Navrey/Medusa/Slasher/Stygian Dragon, so hitting in wraith form should be sufficient to keep mana topped off. My suit has 40% LMC, so I'm toying with using tribulation and not using specials too much, or maybe doing AI or Double-strike every 3 seconds, or increasing mana enough that using a special within 3 seconds would still keep mana at or over 11. I just don't see this working if I have to recast tribulation all of the time, though.

 

[Poo]

all this talk about mana upkeep, but i wonder.... i know my pure bard, i go out with vollems and when i get tapped by anything in knocks me out of my mastery.

so im curious how hard you gotta get hit to knock you out of tribulation.

cause if you get knocked out every hit then its not gonna be worth it since your gonna get hit..... a LOT

 

[Bort of Atlantic]

I'm setting up a character on test to try this and will hopefully have results later today.

 

[Bort of Atlantic]

I tried tribulation against Balron last night while in wraith form, and here's what I noticed:

1. Tribulation procs A LOT. This gives me some hope for another character (tamer with discord) and almost makes me want to try to make this one work.
2. Mana upkeep is actually pretty easy to cover. If you eat a mana vamp and don't get a hit in before the upkeep cost is checked, tribulation will drop. Otherwise, if you don't bottom out your mana by spamming specials, you gain back more than enough mana to be able to use specials regularly and keep tribulation up. I can't see using this on everyday hunting, though (you kill things too quickly for the recast to be worth it).
3. The sad part...I got knocked out of tribulation whenever the Balron hit me. I don't think it dropped when I was hit by spells, so there may be a damage threshold, but this means it's not terribly viable when tanking bosses.
4. Protection doesn't prevent interruption to tribulation.

I can see this working on a support character or possibly an archer/thrower as they take fewer hits, but it's back to the drawing board to try to keep tribulation running while taking hits. I'm not sure how overall damage compares to AI, but I'm pretty sure it's close (especially if you run a weapon with double-strike, e.g. Daisho). I'll see if I can find the exact proc chance and can then estimate how it compares.

 

[Klapauc]

Just a hint to help you with your quest.
The problem with getting hit can be solved by using mirror images at 120 ninjitsu, hla on weapon and close to 45 dci. Even a paragon balron gets very few hits in now.
Needs 1-2 fc and 2-3 fcr on suit to work well, but then it rocks for not getting hit if you always have 2 or 3 images out.

 

[Bort of Atlantic]

I appreciate the suggestion, and I might be able to fit the points in (template listed below).

Right now, I see the following buffs/debuffs:

45 DCI
HLA (-25 HCI)
Discord (14% resist and skill reduction)
Tribulation (-20 HCI)

Assuming there's no HCI decrease cap (maybe it's 45?) and a 120-base wrestling skill, I'd get hit ~1/6 swings. Parry could decrease that further assuming you can discord then swap jewelry out, which would give me extra skill room (***does anyone know if this still works?***).

90 + 30 Discord
90 + 30 Music, maybe +35 with a talisman swap, too
120 Swords (Daisho for dbl strike and feint)
120 Tactics
120 Bushido (evasion, feint)
80 SS
40 Necro (wraith and curse weapon)
60 Parry (I could possibly put another 30 parry or 30 SS on the jewelry I swap in, too, or I could go with 80 chiv with jewels if consecrate and EoO seem to be needed)

Lack of chivalry means I'd want to find/craft a 100% elemental weapon for whatever I went up against, but I can still hit the damage cap with perfection and a slayer. This also makes it so karma hits from curse weapon don't matter. Wraiths can cast recall, too, so getting around isn't difficult. Protection would likely be a must for curse weapon and tribulation, and the -15% phys resist is offset by the +15% from wraith form.

Other possibility --

90 + 30 Discord
90 + 30 Music, maybe +35 with a talisman swap, too
120 Swords (Daisho for dbl strike and feint)
120 Tactics
120 Ninjitsu (feint is still possible, and now I get mirror images but lose momentum strike and evasion)
90 SS
40 Necro
50 Bushido

Third possibility --

90 + 30 Discord
90 + 30 Music, maybe +35 with a talisman swap, too
120 Swords (Daisho for dbl strike and feint)
120 Tactics
120 Ninjitsu
99 Necro (VE)
31 +30 Parry
50 Bushido

This one receives 20% damage reduction from swampy and 20% life leech, which may be enough to stay alive w/o curse weapon, especially when you figure in discord, HLA, tribulation, etc. Mana leech from weapon is sufficient to keep tribulation rolling and still work in some specials and mirror images.

I'll make some changes on test center and report back here for anyone interested. The annoying part there is that despite having basic imbuing ingredients, I can't imbue much b/c the secondary elements have to be farmed if I want a demon slayer weapon for example.

 

[Bort of Atlantic]

Replying to pose a question (I have not tried the above templates yet for anyone following the thread; I'm still very curious if they will work, though) --

Has anyone (solo) successfully made use of full-time tribulation on bosses? A thrower may be the way to go, or maybe a wraith-mystic using RC to tank?

 

[Poo]

i havnt dont the wraith form

but i was on my plain disco archer the other day and was backing up a friend on a sampire and we where doing some bosses.

id disco, he'd honor and go in, id stand back a couple tiles and shoot over his shoulder and drop some heals and such as needed.

i thought id try to run the disco mastery while there and i never even got a chance, every couple hits the boss would retarget onto me and come over and give me a love tap.

so then i DID put on the mastery and every time he would come over and tap me it would knock me out of mastery.

and the mana wasnt a HUGE issue even for me not being in wraith, i had 40LMC and high MR and over GM med with mana leech on weapon.
but just him hitting me out of mastery every 10 seconds was a pain in the arse!

 

[Nalynn]

Hi, this seemed like the best place to pose my question. Regarding the barding suit that can be obtained through the current Clean-Up effort. Is it the mastery skills you all are talking about here that the suit enhances?

 

[Bort of Atlantic]

You've got it.

To follow up on previous posts, I did try a few different builds on test center with varying results. The problem is lack of gear, though; it's tough putting together a good suit when you're using a few artifacts and anything you can craft with a val hammer, and you don't have all imbuing ingredients available (e.g. I was testing on paragon balron with a repond slayer).

Here are my findings thus far:

Ninjitsu is almost mandatory if you want to run tribulation. Even with discord and tribulation giving -hit, I was still getting hit enough to make recasting tribulation a pain. I may try this on a live server in a bit with a HLA leafblade (I have another character or two to revamp before I can do this justice, though).

On the same note, mirror images are awesome. I'd recommend 2+ faster casting and also carry trapped boxes so paralyze doesn't mean your enemy cleans out your images and starts pwning you. I'm not quite sure which bosses have whirlwind and other annoying attacks that knock all images out at once, but when I get around to trying on live, I'm sure I'll find out. Because of this testing, I'm toying with a sampire template that makes use on ninjitsu to eat a majority of attacks. More to come.

 

[Bort of Atlantic]

First off -- Thanks Logrus for the changes!!!

Bumping my old thread as I -finally- got the chance to try a disco melee char on live! Keep in mind my goal was to run tribulation full-time; I know there are plenty of discord archers/melee characters out there, but I've never seen any use tribulation. Here is the template I just ran against unbound EV's:

120 discord
120 music
120 tactics
120 fencing
99 necromancy
91 chiv
50 bushido

I honored, discorded, and then ran tribulation until it ran out (I had to recast it a few times each fight; I don't know if it's on a timer or if there were resists). I killed unbounds in a little more time than it takes me on my standard sampire template (running 120 anatomy). I used armor ignore whenever possible and cast consecrate weapon throughout. Vampiric embrace was the only healing method, and it is more than enough.

Pros: You don't take much damage or durability hits to gear. I'm running a leafblade with HLA, so I don't get hit very often. Discord and tribulation are also great team skills/spells. If there are a lot of people killing things, these make everything faster.
Cons: No momentum strike, no evasion. Not ideal, but even if I get two of the new Shame monsters on me, I honor one and armor ignore it to death before honoring #2 and doing the same (which I can't do if I momentum strike and damage #2). Running tribulation isn't viable against casters. Mana drains/vamps and paralyze knock trib off, and recast is much tougher. This may work if the character runs resist, but it would still be more difficult than just using tribulation on melee. This is probably still a good template to run vs. casters simply due to discord, though.

Based off of testing, I'm probably going to revamp (hardy har har) the template a bit --

120 discord
120 music
120 tactics
120 swords
99 necromancy or healing
91+29=120 anatomy (+skill on jewelry)
50 bushido

So here's the deal: Swords instead of fencing for daisho. I don't need potions against unbounds, and running one of the better double-striking weapons sounds like fun. I honestly don't know how the DPS pans out compared to armor ignore and will probably do a few more test runs before trying daisho instead of leafblade. I'll also give despair a shot to see how it works out, but I think the tribulation proc wins the DPS race right now.

Anatomy in place of chivalry. This is based off of hoping dull copper runic hammers are kind to me and give me 100% elemental weapons I can imbue, removing the need to cast consecrate weapon. With discord running, I almost never miss, so 50 bushido is +100% damage, ele slayer is +100% damage (or air ele is +200% if I want to create unbound-specific weapons), and I'm at the cap. Healing can also be subbed in for necro if needed with this build, letting me take on some of the anti-life leech baddies out there.

This second build pretty much guarantees faster kills than using a general sampire as tribulation results in higher DPS by itself from the proc and discord decreases number of misses overall. Anatomy will give me the same base weapon damage as my sampire, so now it's just a matter of testing a bit more and making tweaks. Feel free to post questions and I'll answer as best I can.