I have a question...

[Redxpanda]

First lemme say i hope this thread is not filled with spam and flames because i really would like to get a serious discussion and perhaps some dev feedback out of this.

The following is from a recent article titled "Warhammer Online chief bans thousands of gold farmers, tells them 'go to hell'

I will copy and paste some key points. If you want to read the entire article just search for the title.

San Mateo (CA) – EA/Mythic’s General Manager Mark Jacobs says gold farmers aren’t welcome in Warhammer Online and adds quite forcefully that they can, “go to hell”. Jacobs recently posted in a blog that he’s instructed his staff to immediately and publically ban all gold farmers. To add insult to injury, he says Warhammer Online has a strike team devoted to exterminating gold farmers from the game.

Gold farmers have been around ever since the days of Ultima Online and the business is quite profitable. These businesses often employ low-wage people who spend hours toiling for virtual loot to sell to other players. The gold farmers then turn around and sell the virtual gold for tens to hundreds of real dollars.

“I’ve been waiting for the day that WAR launched so I could have the absolute pleasure of instituting policies to make their lives more difficult so we could drive them out of WAR.”
So far, 400 gold farmers have been banned and Jacobs says he’s instructed his “strike teams” to have a no tolerance policy against anyone who spams the chat channels for virtual loot or gold. Such people will be banned immediately. “My guys ban their useless, time-consuming butts right away,” wrote Jacobs.
To top it all off, the bans are now broadcasted to the public via server-wide messages like, “Tchar’zanek has ordered the slaughter of [Spammer].”

My question is: What is keeping devs from doing that with this game? What can we do to make this happen in Ultima Online and what is the holdup? This article raised all kinds of emotions and questions...Someone help me out here.

 

[Flutter]

They're putting more money and manpower into Warhammer and newer games than they are for Ultima Online.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

First lemme say i hope this thread is not filled with spam and flames because i really would like to get a serious discussion and perhaps some dev feedback out of this.

The following is from a recent article titled "Warhammer Online chief bans thousands of gold farmers, tells them 'go to hell'

I will copy and paste some key points. If you want to read the entire article just search for the title.

San Mateo (CA) – EA/Mythic’s General Manager Mark Jacobs says gold farmers aren’t welcome in Warhammer Online and adds quite forcefully that they can, “go to hell”. Jacobs recently posted in a blog that he’s instructed his staff to immediately and publically ban all gold farmers. To add insult to injury, he says Warhammer Online has a strike team devoted to exterminating gold farmers from the game.

Gold farmers have been around ever since the days of Ultima Online and the business is quite profitable. These businesses often employ low-wage people who spend hours toiling for virtual loot to sell to other players. The gold farmers then turn around and sell the virtual gold for tens to hundreds of real dollars.

“I’ve been waiting for the day that WAR launched so I could have the absolute pleasure of instituting policies to make their lives more difficult so we could drive them out of WAR.”
So far, 400 gold farmers have been banned and Jacobs says he’s instructed his “strike teams” to have a no tolerance policy against anyone who spams the chat channels for virtual loot or gold. Such people will be banned immediately. “My guys ban their useless, time-consuming butts right away,” wrote Jacobs.
To top it all off, the bans are now broadcasted to the public via server-wide messages like, “Tchar’zanek has ordered the slaughter of [Spammer].”

My question is: What is keeping devs from doing that with this game? What can we do to make this happen in Ultima Online and what is the holdup? This article raised all kinds of emotions and questions...Someone help me out here.

You may want to ponder Occam's Razor, "All things being equal the simplest answer tends to be the right answer"

By the way, rewind 9 years back in UO's history, do you know who Steve Austin was? If so do you know the story?

 

[UOKaiser]

My question is: What is keeping devs from doing that with this game? What can we do to make this happen in Ultima Online and what is the holdup? This article raised all kinds of emotions and questions...Someone help me out here.

Other than funding its the simple thing as compare the number of players in warhammer and the newer games to a 11 year old game. Have a no tolerence policy in UO and you know what happens it will be only 1k players if that left playing spread over all the shards then the next publish would be the close down of UO servers as players who still want to play UO would have moved on to freeshards.

 

[DHMagicMan_1]

Also UO, being the first, didn't have all the built in tools and stuff that the newer games have, that help GMs catch the Gold Sellers etc...

There is no "Global Chat" channel in UO... we are chatting on ICQ, TeamSpeak, Ventrillo or fill in your favorite here...

They tried using Punk Buster for a while but don't know why they stopped that one here...

Basically, UO is what it is. It's the first and a classic. You can't make it the fastest, the best, shiniest or showiest but it's still the first and still a classic.

 

[ColterDC]

My question is: What is keeping devs from doing that with this game?

Why bother to clean up something you plan on throwing away.

Think about it.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

The odds are that Warhammer's strike force will be the source of doing the very thing that Mark is saying he hates so much.

Just like UO ... hum did in the past.

In short what better person(s) to exploit the situation than the enforcers?

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Unless someone is actively EXPLOITING the game in order to obtain wealth/items they would not ordinarily be able to obtain (be it timeframe or power based), what they do with the exchange of that item IMO is their business (again assuming they are also following all applicable laws in regards to taxation and fraud).

Ban people for EXPLOITING, not for having a few extra items they want to sell.

 

[Masuri]

Unless someone is actively EXPLOITING the game in order to obtain wealth/items they would not ordinarily be able to obtain (be it timeframe or power based), what they do with the exchange of that item IMO is their business (again assuming they are also following all applicable laws in regards to taxation and fraud). Ban people for EXPLOITING, not for having a few extra items they want to sell.

As usual, I agree with Dermott. Gold-sellers don't really ruin anything that a few well-placed goldsinks wouldn't fix, if the devs cared enough to bother.

It should be noted that with Warhammer, Jacobs has basically admitted he is an anti-gold-seller fanatic and has a loyal following of zealots who want the banstick brought out if you even think of buying or selling gold. What you get there is a confusion of people, some of whom are against farming, some against selling gold for money, some who hate spam, and some who just don't want anyone without a 24-7 play schedule to be able to compete on the same level by "buying in". All of these groups are easily riled up and they get all frothy about their perceived worst evil.

The best part was when Mark Jacobs announced he was going to start a "war on gold spam". To show his followers that he was serious, they started forcing a pop-up screen - to everyone currently playing on that server - every time people were banned for sending tells about gold selling. In other words, they spammed normal players with bragging about banning spammers. It was hilarious and sad. I bug-reported it for the first week or two. But it's EA, so... yeah.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...

Unless someone is actively EXPLOITING the game in order to obtain wealth/items they would not ordinarily be able to obtain (be it timeframe or power based), what they do with the exchange of that item IMO is their business (again assuming they are also following all applicable laws in regards to taxation and fraud).

Ban people for EXPLOITING, not for having a few extra items they want to sell.

With all due respect this is a serious White Washing of the problem. As it intentionally or not, obfuscates the "having a few items to sell as being the norm".

It is characterizing Gold Dupers, Famers etc as innocent, we have the best interest of the game and the players at heart.

This is simply untrue, has never been true. I concede that that of that very small group, a statistically insignificant number are actually border line harming the game. For them to pop up and say "Don't hurt me because the other 99.9% are evil", is well exactly why things get out of hand.

And I certainly do commend them for being aggressive in the pursuit of these "innocent" people that deliberately or not (the more likely) ruin the experience for the majority of players.

Hopefully he took the lesson that UO showed and has addressed the greatest threat to his goal.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Nope, it's NOT white washing UNLESS You'
re overlooking the big all-caps (and in this case bolded) mention of EXPLOITERS.

Ban the EXPLOITERS for duping, script-botting, using illegal programs, etc.

DO NOT ban the player who LEGITIMATELY acquires such items and wishes to exhange them to another player ingame.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

And quite frankly, as much as I didn't like getting spammed by junk characters the second go-around I had in WoW, at least they came up with a way to block the spamming instead of counter-spamming that they had banned the spammers for spamming.

There IS such a thing as going so far as to be worse than the problem.

See I'm a free market person. I'd rather see someone sell 10,000,000 UO gold that they acquired LEGITIMATELY and exchange it to a normal person rather than see a duper give away 10,000,000 in duped gold for free.

I refuse to join the torch and pitchfork mobs when it comes to the anti-RMT argument.

The problem is NOT RMT sales. They are merely a SYMPTOM of the problem of duping, scripting, and lack of ability to effectively police a game.

Fix the problem, the symptom then is no longer an issue (except to maybe the perpetually envious).

 

[UltimaSword]

In all honesty that guy needs to calm down.

 

[laurlo]

would be nice if they gave UO more resources.. but I do not think it would be a wise investment for them in the long run.

 

[Nexus]

I'll be waiting for the lawsuit, which don't say "Well the TOS Says"....

Read this...

Judge rules against ‘one-sided’ TOS in Bragg lawsuit
Thu May 31, 2007 12:41pm PDT

By Eric Reuters

SECOND LIFE, May 31 (Reuters) - A Pennsylvania judge has ruled that Linden Lab’s terms of service for Second Life residents are not legally binding, according to court papers filed on Wednesday.

The ruling came in the case of Bragg v. Linden Research. Marc Bragg, a lawyer from West Chester, Pa., filed suit in 2006 claiming that Linden unfairly terminated his account, causing the loss of his virtual business venture. Linden filed motions to dismiss the suit and compel Bragg to arbitrate his claim out of court, consistent with Linden’s Terms of Service.

Judge Eduardo Robreno ruled on May 30 that Linden’s Terms of Service constitute a “contract of adhesion”, allowing the suit to proceed.

“Linden presents the TOS on a take-it-or-leave-it basis,” he wrote. “In effect, the TOS provide Linden with a variety of one-sided remedies to resolve disputes, while forcing its customers to arbitrate any disputes with Linden.”

“The arbitration clause is not designed to provide Second Life participants an effective means of resolving disputes with Linden. Rather, it is a one-sided means which tilts unfairly, in almost all cases, in Linden’s favor,” Robreno added.

Bragg’s lawsuit named Linden Lab Chief Executive Philip Rosedale as a defendant. Linden’s motion to have Rosedale’s name removed from the suit was also denied by Robreno.

Bragg had identified a means to purchase land in Second Life below market rates. After he purchased thousands of U.S. dollars worth of virtual real estate in this manner, Linden Lab summarily terminated his account, prompting his lawsuit.

If they acquired the items through strictly legal means meaning attended at the time then well it's their virtual property regardless of what a companies ToS claims, as it shows that the one sided ToS that every MMO it seems uses it not legally binding as it's technically a Contract of Adhesion, or a My way or the Highway approach how ever you want to look at it.

Now there is legal merit to the Virtual Property companies, so I guess we all better get used to them....

I'm just waiting for one of the larger MMO's to tank and see if any of the virtual item sellers sue for profit loss.....

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...

Nope, it's NOT white washing UNLESS You'
re overlooking the big all-caps (and in this case bolded) mention of EXPLOITERS.

Ban the EXPLOITERS for duping, script-botting, using illegal programs, etc.

DO NOT ban the player who LEGITIMATELY acquires such items and wishes to exhange them to another player ingame.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

And quite frankly, as much as I didn't like getting spammed by junk characters the second go-around I had in WoW, at least they came up with a way to block the spamming instead of counter-spamming that they had banned the spammers for spamming.

There IS such a thing as going so far as to be worse than the problem.

See I'm a free market person. I'd rather see someone sell 10,000,000 UO gold that they acquired LEGITIMATELY and exchange it to a normal person rather than see a duper give away 10,000,000 in duped gold for free.

I refuse to join the torch and pitchfork mobs when it comes to the anti-RMT argument.

The problem is NOT RMT sales. They are merely a SYMPTOM of the problem of duping, scripting, and lack of ability to effectively police a game.

Fix the problem, the symptom then is no longer an issue (except to maybe the perpetually envious).

Yes a White Washing but lets put your assertion to the test.

We agree that the problem needs to be fixed.

EA/Mythic Sells Gold and Items, problem 100% solved and the revenue goes directly to EA/Mythic and should more than adequately fund the game.

I know exactly what your reply will be.

Having EA/Mythic create the gold from nothing is identical to the Dupers.

Obviously ignoring the most obvious effect, that of putting the Real Life Currency in EA/Mythics pockets, directly, to enhance the games revenue.

And I imagine it never occurs to those that espouse that White Noise that EA/Mythic fabricates the Gold, to step back and answer the most obvious and simple question, well ... gosh ... were do you really think gold comes from? It is fabricated by the game each time a Mob spawns etc.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Yes, it enhances EA/Mythic's coffers, but as you were quick to try and knock down as a straw man, the EFFECT of Mythic selling gold directly in game is that they create the gold from NOTHING (as opposed to duper who need a seed amount and an exploit path) which would throw the gold "faucet" wide open.

It's bad business to do that.

"But gold is made from nothing"

Yes, but it is done at a pre-determined rate (or at least as much of one as the devs can muster) that is in theory offset through various "sinks" and through time-based or risk (loss of items/insurance)-based gameplay. BIG difference in those two systems and Mythic selling gold straight up for cash.

A LEGITIMATE player selling gold DOES NOT add gold beyond the accepted rate in the game. They merely TRANSFER the gold from one account (theirs) to another (the buyser's).

Dupers and Mythic ADD gold to the game to transfer.

Selling a few special decorative items? No problem because they are not actual ingame currency and and in-game "sale" of these items are again a TRANSFER, not CREATION of gold.

Secondly, from a business standpoint, it actually works out BETTER for ALL players to leave gold sales alone WHILE BANNING THE EXPLOITERS.

Do dupers sell gold more than normal players? CERTAINLY. Why? Because they've gone for qualtity over value. They've pushed most normal players out of the market because those that WOULD try their hand at such a venture look at the amount needed, how long it takes to gain that amount and then what that would come to in $/hour (which is a tiny fraction these days of minimum wage).

Get rid of dupers and exploiters and the value of gold goes up and the price of ingame items goes down (after the additional introduction of more effective sinks to remove existing gold as well as the deletion of duped gold and goods).

Again, gold is put into the game right now "from nothing", but it is done so at a predetermined rate of acceptability. The game company creating gold rom nothing to meet demand for selling gold for real cash goes outside that rate of acceptability the same way duping does.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...

Yes, it enhances EA/Mythic's coffers, but as you were quick to try and knock down as a straw man, the EFFECT of Mythic selling gold directly in game is that they create the gold from NOTHING (as opposed to duper who need a seed amount and an exploit path) which would throw the gold "faucet" wide open.

It's bad business to do that.

"But gold is made from nothing"

Yes, but it is done at a pre-determined rate (or at least as much of one as the devs can muster) that is in theory offset through various "sinks" and through time-based or risk (loss of items/insurance)-based gameplay. BIG difference in those two systems and Mythic selling gold straight up for cash.

You see it as a big difference, well if they want to slow down the gold sales then they raise the price of things.

It isn't their price that solves the problem, it is their presence that solves the problem.

Saying, "Well what we sell is guaranteed to be legitimate. Buy it from another external source (aka for real life currency) and there is no guarantee that you wont be banned for possession of duped stuff"

Given that, they have ultimate, total control over the ... well lets just be humerus and call it Economy.

They get the revenue stream to improve the service to the customers.

Lets ask a .... some what trick question, do you know the rate of pay for a Q/A person working at EA/Mythic?

Well just make a guess.

 

[Nexus]

You see it as a big difference, well if they want to slow down the gold sales then they raise the price of things.

It isn't their price that solves the problem, it is their presence that solves the problem.

Saying, "Well what we sell is guaranteed to be legitimate. Buy it from another external source (aka for real life currency) and there is no guarantee that you wont be banned for possession of duped stuff"

Given that, they have ultimate, total control over the ... well lets just be humerus and call it Economy.

They get the revenue stream to improve the service to the customers.

Lets ask a .... some what trick question, do you know the rate of pay for a Q/A person working at EA/Mythic?

Well just make a guess.

I think Dermott has this one right, EA could very well sell gold but the fact that it's created from nothing would undermine the point of gold sinks, and other gold attrition factors designed to help curb inflation in the games virtual economic market. What they need to do is find a way to prevent, or limit scripting, and eliminate Dupe bugs. This would leave gold farming up to those who actually invest the time to do so. Players who actually go out and manually collect the items to sell or the actual gold itself aren't harmful to the economy, but BoTs that facilitate these things or preform gold farming for you are. Seriously how can a single individual or even 2-4 people like some of the sales groups go out and supply enough gold to run a market on every single English Speaking Shard?

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I think Dermott has this one right, EA could very well sell gold but the fact that it's created from nothing would undermine the point of gold sinks, and other gold attrition factors designed to help curb inflation in the games virtual economic market. What they need to do is find a way to prevent, or limit scripting, and eliminate Dupe bugs. This would leave gold farming up to those who actually invest the time to do so. Players who actually go out and manually collect the items to sell or the actual gold itself aren't harmful to the economy, but BoTs that facilitate these things or preform gold farming for you are. Seriously how can a single individual or even 2-4 people like some of the sales groups go out and supply enough gold to run a market on every single English Speaking Shard?

But you see the items themselves are the best ever gold sink. They always have been, well not now as NPC's are not the primary supplier of items.

But if EA/Mythic were selling both the gold and the items, then without doubt the item vendors are going to be a gold sink like you have never seen before.

It is even conceivable that ...well no, no need to point that out.

Now to the later part of your statement,

The way it works is very simple but so totally foriegn to most people that it borders on the inconceivable.

The place is Aisa/South East Asia. (Mostly but by no means exclusively)

Big Joe, gets the idea that (s)he can sell gold and items for real life currency. They ... well lets just say they get a couple dozen people to work for them doing these brain dead repetitive tasks.

Big Joe rakes in the big bucks and pays the grunts on average 0.50 cents a day and a day can be mandated to be up to 12 hours, 7 days a week. The people that are fortunate to get this, think this is the best thing since sliced bread and in reality live a much better life than those that do not have the task.

Big Joe serves all UO, Everquest, Wow servers.

The above is as documented by Forbes over 2 years ago. They estimated then, that now, the world wide demand for 3rd party purchases of gold and items for all MMORPG's would be in excess of $1,000,000,000US (yes 1 billion us dollars) per year.

We are not talking nickles and dimes here. The people that oppose solving this problem are by no means trafficking in nickles and dimes.

It is no intuitively obvious so I might as well point it out, the over whelming majority of these transactions are "under the table" and as such are not recorded. Being not recorded means no taxes.

 

[AesSedai]

What is keeping devs from doing that with this game? What can we do to make this happen in Ultima Online and what is the holdup?

- Excellent questions.

WE (the collective community) have been requesting more actions such as this for over a decade (not many MMO's can claim that, heh). Maybe it has to do with what the GMs have to work with (Gamebryo v Wombat v GM Tools... but UO has Gamebryo now, hrmm.) Maybe it has to do with Mythic's investment in the two products. This one will thrill cheaters & their supporters: Maybe it has to do with the overall population of cheaters in UO, despite the FACT that we have been told several times (even since Mythic has inherited UO) that they too agree that cheating kills all multiplayer games & that they are steadfastly working to remove as much cheating in UO as possible. As possible. That reminds me, if UO and WHO share the same GM pool... could it be possible that the queue ratio is weighted to attend to one more than another? Who knows. I'd love to hear an answer (not to my questions, rather yours) from an authoritative figure.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

1. Has anyone checked the WHO terms of service to see if there's Punkbuster-style language like there is in other games?

2. Has anyone checked the WHO boards to see if there's a firestorm for every major anti-cheating actions they take, or attempt to take?

3. Broadly speaking....When did the term "gold farming" come to apply strictly to the selling of in-game gold for RL money? I always used the term to apply anytime I was in-game specifically to acquire gold. I described myself as an occasional gold-farmer and now whenever I read a subject line that talks about banning for gold farming I panic for a second before I realize I'm not what they were talking about. lol

-Galen's player

 

[Xanthea]

My question is: What is keeping devs from doing that with this game? What can we do to make this happen in Ultima Online and what is the holdup? This article raised all kinds of emotions and questions...Someone help me out here.[/QUOTE]

The diffrence is in WoW for example it is not as easy to get cash but if we stick to UO.

Already from start the economy got busted. Why? example tamers could have 2,3,4 dragons and making an easy 100k an hour in destard etc.the massive flow of money pissed in to the game. This and combined with the player greed made items costs ****loads.

Also so many house looting bugs been in to UO and that made ppl very rich be able to loot castles,houses etc for regs,rares whole guild houses etc.

Me and 2 other friends killed a guy in a keep took hes key etc, this was an pk guild tower and they had duped so mutch items/gear that i live on these still today. there were like several 100k regs,rares,vanq,ingots etc etc for hours we gated back and forth.

could pull out alot of more issue's, but there been like 10-20 duping bugs in UO if not more imagine ppl dupe 100mil that become 200mil etc etc... origin ****up them self good on those parts

 

[Nexus]

But you see the items themselves are the best ever gold sink. They always have been, well not now as NPC's are not the primary supplier of items.

But if EA/Mythic were selling both the gold and the items, then without doubt the item vendors are going to be a gold sink like you have never seen before.

It is even conceivable that ...well no, no need to point that out.

Now to the later part of your statement,

The way it works is very simple but so totally foriegn to most people that it borders on the inconceivable.

The place is Aisa/South East Asia. (Mostly but by no means exclusively)

Big Joe, gets the idea that (s)he can sell gold and items for real life currency. They ... well lets just say they get a couple dozen people to work for them doing these brain dead repetitive tasks.

Big Joe rakes in the big bucks and pays the grunts on average 0.50 cents a day and a day can be mandated to be up to 12 hours, 7 days a week. The people that are fortunate to get this, think this is the best thing since sliced bread and in reality live a much better life than those that do not have the task.

Big Joe serves all UO, Everquest, Wow servers.

The above is as documented by Forbes over 2 years ago. They estimated then, that now, the world wide demand for 3rd party purchases of gold and items for all MMORPG's would be in excess of $1,000,000,000US (yes 1 billion us dollars) per year.

We are not talking nickles and dimes here. The people that oppose solving this problem are by no means trafficking in nickles and dimes.

It is no intuitively obvious so I might as well point it out, the over whelming majority of these transactions are "under the table" and as such are not recorded. Being not recorded means no taxes.

Your way would work only if the items were for in game gold, not real life money. But at the same time they would only be fueling the Gold Farming operations you mentioned. There needs to be some decent gold sinks put in I agree, but never ever should EA/Mythic sell in game currency in any form as it would undermine all of the purposes of a gold sink. If desirable gold sinks could be put in then the legit gold farms that preform actions attended won't be a major influences as they will be primarily used to purchase gold that goes directly into the sinks, better yet they would destroy their own market because they would no longer be able to sell many of the items they can now, once again this is only if it's offered for in game currency only. Selling items/gold for cash would increase revenue from the game but it would harm it's already imbalanced economy more than anything.

Oh and how many of the well known Items for $$$ sites that operate in North American and European Shards are Asia based? Few of them if any that I know of....These aren't groups using farms of workers that aspect is largely dead in UO as it's primarily out of China this happens and UO isn't marketed or accessible from there. I know it's not because a friend moved to China for a teaching job years ago and had to leave his accounts in someone else's care because he couldn't login from China.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Your way would work only if the items were for in game gold, not real life money. But at the same time they would only be fueling the Gold Farming operations you mentioned. There needs to be some decent gold sinks put in I agree, but never ever should EA/Mythic sell in game currency in any form as it would undermine all of the purposes of a gold sink.

"Your way would work only if the items were for in game gold, not real life money"

Hum, not really true but what the heck lets play like it is. So they sell the Gold for RLC and you buy the items from NPC's that wasnt a very big stretch and the NPC Vendors are the best Gold Sink ever.

The part that makes it not true, is that if EA/M establish's a Gold for RLC (Real Life Currency) exchange rate then is there a real difference between just buying the item for RLC vs buying the Gold for RLC then buying the item? Of course not and what it does is drive down the need for gold, this push's the supply of gold to be larger than the demand for it. Because the prices are fixed by EA/M the Gold ... well it just isn't a commodity any longer.

"There needs to be some decent gold sinks put in I agree"

You seemingly do not believe that NPC Vendors with desirable items is The Best Gold Sink Ever. In the past this was very much the case. The only reason it is not apparent today is that the NPC items simply do not match up to the PC Vendor Items.

You appear to be comming from a posture of EA/M should never sell gold (I think that is a direct quote). You base this on the assertion that doing that, EA/M is duping gold. Yet ... well Gold is Created every time you kill an NPC etc. There is no difference other than were you get the gold from, well and the fact that EA/M has a revenue stream that can probably 10X their income from subscriptions and get rid of the Scriptors, Dupers and Gold Sellers. This would go a ... well a ways to keeping UO's doors open.

 

[AesSedai]

You appear to be comming from a posture of EA/M should never sell gold (I think that is a direct quote).

-

Simply: It cannot work like that, EnigmaMaitreya.

Long explanation: Do some research & you will find the answers.
(To begin with: Why do you think WoW, Jacobs, and others are so steadfastly against RealMonetaryTransactions? Why haven't they embraced the cash-flow for themselves? Why did Sony 'allegedly' bow out? Solely for the 'spirit' of gaming? Wrong. I have conceded the loss of my pursuit, for the lack of $10s of millions of competitive fundings; but I like LiveGamer's {Sony's?} approach.. look into it. Obviously major gaming companies are interested in Billions or a percentage therein... so why are they shy to bite? Research, and you will see why Sony distanced themselves just as others, imho.)

 

[AesSedai]

- And now back to the original topic (sorry, but that off-topic subject is near and dear to me):

What is keeping UO from doing what WHO has been doing re: removing rule breakers?

 

[Nexus]

"Your way would work only if the items were for in game gold, not real life money"

Hum, not really true but what the heck lets play like it is. So they sell the Gold for RLC and you buy the items from NPC's that wasnt a very big stretch and the NPC Vendors are the best Gold Sink ever.

The part that makes it not true, is that if EA/M establish's a Gold for RLC (Real Life Currency) exchange rate then is there a real difference between just buying the item for RLC vs buying the Gold for RLC then buying the item? Of course not and what it does is drive down the need for gold, this push's the supply of gold to be larger than the demand for it. Because the prices are fixed by EA/M the Gold ... well it just isn't a commodity any longer.

"There needs to be some decent gold sinks put in I agree"

You seemingly do not believe that NPC Vendors with desirable items is The Best Gold Sink Ever. In the past this was very much the case. The only reason it is not apparent today is that the NPC items simply do not match up to the PC Vendor Items.

You appear to be comming from a posture of EA/M should never sell gold (I think that is a direct quote). You base this on the assertion that doing that, EA/M is duping gold. Yet ... well Gold is Created every time you kill an NPC etc. There is no difference other than were you get the gold from, well and the fact that EA/M has a revenue stream that can probably 10X their income from subscriptions and get rid of the Scriptors, Dupers and Gold Sellers. This would go a ... well a ways to keeping UO's doors open.

The difference is an individual cannot, generate 100 million in an instant, EA/Mythic can. The Gold farmers can't create 100 million in an instant, dupers and scripters are a different story and not all Gold Farmers are scripters we've already determined that much. If they provide Coded means to stop Scripts and close up all the Dupe method loopholes in the server then and only then will buying items from NPC's for currency already in circulation work as a gold sink. Installing a bigger drain does little if you also boost the flow in, that's what providing a means for 100's of millions of gold to be produced in an instant does, even with farming it still takes time to acquire 100's of millions in gold.

I would do nothing to stop what is already a problem in the game now....Look when the Government prints new bills they also destroy a certain amount a year to regulate how much is actually in circulation. UO doesn't do this now and that's the root of inflation in the game over the years. Used to be Commodities you bought from NPC were the sinks that removed Gold from the game, loss of items on death insured redistribution of gold. Now with LRC and Insurance those are gone...Reagents were probably the biggest Sink in UO back in the day, along with dying and having critters loot your loot and PK's taking it. All these are gone as a means to regulate the game economy, especially when there are monsters now can carry much more gold than they did 8+ years ago. The influx of gold has outstripped the redistribution and removal to a point where inflation has taken over. Allowing for EA/Mythic to flush an unlimited amount in at an instant will do far more harm in the long run than good.

There are better ways for EA/Mythic to generate Revenue for UO, mainly by fixing what's wrong with it, and doing some Advertising to gain subscriptions. I remember my 9th anny boxes had copies of DAoC in it, why can't other games like WarHammer Online included a trail version of UO?

 

[Lucy of Kenton]

LOL nice to come back to view strats. you mean the banning of we dupers, and cheaters has not seen a significant difference?

 

[Traveller]

You may want to ponder Occam's Razor, "All things being equal the simplest answer tends to be the right answer"

Problem with Occam's razor is that, while usually very useful, sometime different people have different opinion on what the "simplest" explanation might be. Just to understand what you mean, what is the result of your application of Occam's Razor?

By the way, rewind 9 years back in UO's history, do you know who Steve Austin was? If so do you know the story?

Err... you mean the 6 million dollar man? Or is there something I am missing here? I suppose I do NOT know the story.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

The difference is an individual cannot, generate 100 million in an instant, EA/Mythic can.
...

Ok, it is clear that the only solution to you, is to let people sell items for real life currency. I get that actually I got it going in to this segment didn't I.

But let us make it perfectly clear were your stance is.

"The difference is an individual cannot, generate 100 million in an instant, EA/Mythic can."

If EA/M is selling Gold and Items, then IF EA/M had an item priced at 100M (and they would as they would be selling all items) then the 100MGP's would never hit the street now would it. In short there is no fabrication of gold, there is no need to sink that gold some were is there.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

You may want to ponder Occam's Razor, "All things being equal the simplest answer tends to be the right answer"

Problem with Occam's razor is that, while usually very useful, sometime different people have different opinion on what the "simplest" explanation might be. Just to understand what you mean, what is the result of your application of Occam's Razor?

By the way, rewind 9 years back in UO's history, do you know who Steve Austin was? If so do you know the story?

Err... you mean the 6 million dollar man? Or is there something I am missing here? I suppose I do NOT know the story.

To the first one, it is not going to get answered, period,

As to the second one, well my bad, I made a reference to UO history that can not be read / discovered by googling it. If I were to tell the story it would answer the first. As I am not going down that path, I apologize for making a reference to something that can not be determined by others.

I hope this answer is ... well sufficient as regardless it is the best you will get from me.

 

[D'Amavir]

- And now back to the original topic (sorry, but that off-topic subject is near and dear to me):

What is keeping UO from doing what WHO has been doing re: removing rule breakers?

Removing 10% from 100 is a lot harsher than removing 10% from 1,000,000,000.

Regardless of the bogus claims to the contrary, UO would not survive if EA went full out and banned everyone that sells gold/items for real money, that buys gold/items for real money, uses scripts to farm gold, uses scripts to acquire items, uses scripts to train skills and uses scripts to pvp/pvm. There are a lot more people doing the above things than people want to believe.

I am not saying that all of the above are right or that they should be allowed. But removing anyone that takes part in those things would take away a large amount of players in a game that can't stand to lose a large amount of players.

 

[Magdalene]

*to the thread participants*

Please leave personal issues and comments out of this.

@ D'Amavir - I can honestly say I've never bought or sold anything UO-related for cash (except buying accounts/expansions from OSI/EA), never used a script in game. Want to make an anonymous poll?

 

[D'Amavir]

*to the thread participants*

Please leave personal issues and comments out of this.

@ D'Amavir - I can honestly say I've never bought or sold anything UO-related for cash (except buying accounts/expansions from OSI/EA), never used a script in game. Want to make an anonymous poll?

You can poll all you want. There are more people using scripts or farming gold or selling items for real money or buying items for real money than you think. Do you honestly believe that a multi million dollar industry is being funded by just one or two unscrupulous players? That's silly. Those services exists and prosper because so many people take advantage of them. If that wasn't the case, why would WHO need a group dedicated to removing them? And why would so many people create so many threads dissing them? And why would the 'economy' in UO being bad be blamed on them? Facts don't lie, even when people do.

I would imagine that you would also be able to honestly say you haven't commited a crime in real life. Does that mean that crime is not a rampant problem in the world? Or does it mean that you are ONE person that has never committed one?

 

[Nexus]

Ok, it is clear that the only solution to you, is to let people sell items for real life currency. I get that actually I got it going in to this segment didn't I.

EA/Mythic can't stop this Their ToS can say "You can't sell in game items for real life currency" and if they started banning people for this it would be grounds for a lawsuit if someone wanted to invest the money into actually suing them. That's the basis that Bragg vs Linden was over, they can't ban the legit gold farmers, item sellers because they are selling virtual goods.

Companies can think what they want the one sided ToS we all were told we have to agree too has no legal merit and isn't legally binding on this. They can't shut down the gold farmers, by banning, CC blocks, or IP blocks that do so attended, and within the RoC as they would be liable for law suits which would already have established legal basis in favor of the sellers. My view is that they can't stop these people from doing so not that those people actually should. And because of that I don't think they should join them either, as a free enterprise system would give the players more basis and then they could claim unfair pricing practices.

But let us make it perfectly clear were your stance is.

"The difference is an individual cannot, generate 100 million in an instant, EA/Mythic can."

If EA/M is selling Gold and Items, then IF EA/M had an item priced at 100M (and they would as they would be selling all items) then the 100MGP's would never hit the street now would it. In short there is no fabrication of gold, there is no need to sink that gold some were is there.

My stance is if they are selling items for in game currency it's fine because it sinks gold out of the system, but it would have to be at prices that people won't need to turn to the gold sellers, which they can't do anything about, in order for it to work right. If they introduce Gold into the system by players purchasing it from them in large amounts that is immediately sunk back out by NPC's then it has Zero net effect other than introducing more items into the system and if they are priced the way you mention it will drive player to player sells prices up! For them to work as a gold sink they would need to remove gold from the system which they wouldn't be doing at all. Look if I was to buy a RBC from an NPC for 100mil, I couldn't sell it to another player for 2.5mil and turn a profit, I'd loose 97.5 million on it. If they were priced at 2 million then most players could buy them without turning to a gold seller, and that 2 million leaves the games economy and the player that has 2-3 kicking around from ToT, IDOCS, PvP could sell his too at the same price. Sure some will buy gold to get these items and those will have Zero Net Effect, but if they are priced smartly then a lot of people won't need to or desire to turn to gold sellers for them and you wind up with a larger overall effectiveness to the sink.

That's why Community Collections didn't work as a sink Most players aren't going to toss 12 mil down the drain when other means to acquire the same end are there. Granted these aren't legal means to do so inside the rules of the game but if the top end items from Community Collections were priced at 5 mil then you'd see more people just dropping the gold to the collections to get them if the value of gold was increased. It would work because Gold would then become a stronger in game commodity. It would be worth more and thus would help deflate the games economy.

Let's simplify.....

Adding more means to acquire large sums of gold = Inflation of Game Economy
Adding more effective sinks in a proper manner = Deflation of Game Economy
Adding Both = No Net change in game economics.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

EA/Mythic can't stop this Their ToS can say "You can't sell in game items for real life currency" and if they started banning people for this it would be grounds for a lawsuit if someone wanted to invest the money into actually suing them. That's the basis that Bragg vs Linden was over, they can't ban the legit gold farmers, item sellers because they are selling virtual goods.

Companies can think what they want the one sided ToS we all were told we have to agree too has no legal merit and isn't legally binding on this. They can't shut down the gold farmers, by banning, CC blocks, or IP blocks that do so attended, and within the RoC as they would be liable for law suits which would already have established legal basis in favor of the sellers. My view is that they can't stop these people from doing so not that those people actually should. And because of that I don't think they should join them either, as a free enterprise system would give the players more basis and then they could claim unfair pricing practices.



My stance is if they are selling items for in game currency it's fine because it sinks gold out of the system, but it would have to be at prices that people won't need to turn to the gold sellers, which they can't do anything about, in order for it to work right. If they introduce Gold into the system by players purchasing it from them in large amounts that is immediately sunk back out by NPC's then it has Zero net effect other than introducing more items into the system and if they are priced the way you mention it will drive player to player sells prices up! For them to work as a gold sink they would need to remove gold from the system which they wouldn't be doing at all. Look if I was to buy a RBC from an NPC for 100mil, I couldn't sell it to another player for 2.5mil and turn a profit, I'd loose 97.5 million on it. If they were priced at 2 million then most players could buy them without turning to a gold seller, and that 2 million leaves the games economy and the player that has 2-3 kicking around from ToT, IDOCS, PvP could sell his too at the same price. Sure some will buy gold to get these items and those will have Zero Net Effect, but if they are priced smartly then a lot of people won't need to or desire to turn to gold sellers for them and you wind up with a larger overall effectiveness to the sink.

That's why Community Collections didn't work as a sink Most players aren't going to toss 12 mil down the drain when other means to acquire the same end are there. Granted these aren't legal means to do so inside the rules of the game but if the top end items from Community Collections were priced at 5 mil then you'd see more people just dropping the gold to the collections to get them if the value of gold was increased. It would work because Gold would then become a stronger in game commodity. It would be worth more and thus would help deflate the games economy.

Let's simplify.....

Adding more means to acquire large sums of gold = Inflation of Game Economy
Adding more effective sinks in a proper manner = Deflation of Game Economy
Adding Both = No Net change in game economics.

No lets get this part exactly right

If they introduce Gold into the system by players purchasing it from them in large amounts that is immediately sunk back out by NPC's then it has Zero net effect other than introducing more items into the system and if they are priced the way you mention it will drive player to player sells prices up!

It was your 100MGP, I simply ignored the deliberate exaggeration.

EA/M selling gold or items in game have no specific need to have it be the price that you exaggerated it to be. The more realistic implementation would be, they would price things according to the communities willingness to buy without trivializing the path of actually getting the item.

As an example would they sell a Sword of Prosperity for 1GP? I hope you would agree that would be pointless as then why bother going to get one. Would they sell it ( Some Humor and use your form of exaggeration) for 1,000,000,000BGP's? Why what would be the point?

No, they will sell it for the price their research/information suggest puts the item within reach of players but not so in reach that it removes the choice of getting the item on ones own.

Look, you go ahead and make your reply.

Lets agree that all your arguments are myopic, as in tunnel visioned, to preserve the ability for Players to Sell Gold/Items for Real Life Currency.

Lets agree my arguments are as equally myopic, as in tunnel visioned, that the only way to solve the issue is for the Game Owner to be the 800lb Gorilla in the Economy.

Lets agree that both want a solution.

Lets agree that our paths are opposing.

Lets agree that both have expressed the pro's and con's and from this point on it is just a regurgitation of the same things.

 

[Nexus]

No lets get this part exactly right



it was your 100MGP, I think if you step back and look, I kind of laughed at this proposition and simply ignored the deliberate exaggeration.

EA/M selling gold or items in game have not specific need to have it be the price that you exaggerated it to be. The more realistic implementation would be, they would price things according to the communities willingness to buy without trivializing the path of actually getting the item.

As an example would they sell a Sword of Prosperity for 1GP? I hope you would agree that would be pointless as then why bother going to get one. Would they sell it ( Some Humor and use your form of exaggeration) for 1,000,000,000BGP's? Why what would be the point?

No, they will sell it for the price their research/information suggest puts the item within reach of players but not so in reach that it removes the choice of getting the item on ones own.

Past observations would say they would grossly overprice it....That's what happened to Community Collections, it's the only basis we have to go buy.

 

[ColterDC]

UO would not survive if EA went full out and banned everyone that sells gold/items for real money, that buys gold/items for real money, uses scripts to farm gold, uses scripts to acquire items, uses scripts to train skills and uses scripts to pvp/pvm. There are a lot more people doing the above things than people want to believe.

Sadly, I am going to actually agree with you on this point.

The truth is there are more people cheating in UO than there are honest players.

It really is a pathetic situation that the UO management has caused. Which is why I truely believe they no longer care about UO and are simply waiting for the subscriptions to drop to a predetermined number and then they'll pull the plug.

 

[Maplestone]

My question is: What is keeping devs from doing that with this game?

Truth be told, I feel it's a publicity stunt in Warhammer. I expect that over the next year or two, GMing resources will slowly be diminished and the rate at which gold farmers are detected and removed will decline.

The problem in UO is that the scum have too much experience. They seem to know the code, the procedures, the networks that do and don't attract attention. The devs have made many efforts in the last couple of years and although I don't have any metrics, it feels like the scripting has diminished (it's really hard to tell how much of that is due to population changes and how much is due to randomized resources meaning that we're not competing for the same frostwood trees - it could be worse than ever any just my capacity for self-delusion that's increased).

 

[Uriah Heep]

Okay so who was Steve Austin?
Besides a bionic man, a wrestler, and a rapper?

Anyone?

 

[Magdalene]

You can poll all you want. There are more people using scripts or farming gold or selling items for real money or buying items for real money than you think. Do you honestly believe that a multi million dollar industry is being funded by just one or two unscrupulous players? That's silly. Those services exists and prosper because so many people take advantage of them. If that wasn't the case, why would WHO need a group dedicated to removing them? And why would so many people create so many threads dissing them? And why would the 'economy' in UO being bad be blamed on them? Facts don't lie, even when people do.

I would imagine that you would also be able to honestly say you haven't commited a crime in real life. Does that mean that crime is not a rampant problem in the world? Or does it mean that you are ONE person that has never committed one?

Yet we can safely assume that majority of the population is not committing crimes and at least attempt to remove from society those who do, even or especially those who run multimillion dollar operations leeching on the said society.

 

[DevilsOwn]

Uriah Heep:
Okay so who was Steve Austin?
Besides a bionic man, a wrestler, and a rapper?

Anyone?

You may want to ponder Occam's Razor, "All things being equal the simplest answer tends to be the right answer"

By the way, rewind 9 years back in UO's history, do you know who Steve Austin was? If so do you know the story?

stab in the dark.. maybe the person that spearheaded the lawsuit that led to the demise of the Seers/Companions?

just a guess

 

[Nexus]

Uriah Heep:
Okay so who was Steve Austin?
Besides a bionic man, a wrestler, and a rapper?

Anyone?




stab in the dark.. maybe the person that spearheaded the lawsuit that led to the demise of the Seers/Companions?

just a guess

Not sure if that's who, since the program wasn't abolished til a couple years later than 1999.

 

[UOKaiser]

Yet we can safely assume that majority of the population is not committing crimes and at least attempt to remove from society those who do, even or especially those who run multimillion dollar operations leeching on the said society.

Actually I believe the majority of the population do break the law which makes 99% of population criminal. Example littering,jaywalking,using cell phone while driving,the new txt while driving law,drinking under age hell my grandparents gave me beer when i was 3 which made me a criminal before i knew what crime was lol.,reading someone else mail,uploading music,saying a copyrighted word lol,trying to pick up a girl which is loosly enforced as harrasment go figure, not curbing youre dog,riding a bycyle whithout helmet or on sidewalk, taking the sticker of mattress lol, fighting which is assault I got to plenty of those in school,trowing a party going above the legal noise levels, Man anybody want to take from here its way too many and thats just 1 state law imagine adding all the other laws in each of the states countries in to it. Imagine trying to remove all the criminals stated above the population of the world will be less than 5 people. Same thing that would happen to UO population.

 

[ColterDC]

taking the sticker off mattress

Only against the law if you're the retailer. The final customer can do whatever they want with the matress and the sticker.

But I get your point, alot of people break alot of the minor laws, most of which are so stupid they're not even enforced.

 

[UOKaiser]

Only against the law if you're the retailer. The final customer can do whatever they want with the matress and the sticker.

But I get your point, alot of people break alot of the minor laws, most of which are so stupid they're not even enforced.

Its just the retailer heh i never looked into that just know when I was small my family used to say if you rip it you go to jail. And I was so worried I made sure I wasnt near it at any times and checked it everytime i woke up

 

[Uriah Heep]

Phear the mattress Police!!! mauahahahaha

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Uriah Heep:
Okay so who was Steve Austin?
Besides a bionic man, a wrestler, and a rapper?

Anyone?




stab in the dark.. maybe the person that spearheaded the lawsuit that led to the demise of the Seers/Companions?

just a guess

No.

 

[the 4th man]

You may want to ponder Occam's Razor, "All things being equal the simplest answer tends to be the right answer"

By the way, rewind 9 years back in UO's history, do you know who Steve Austin was? If so do you know the story?

-------------------------------------------------------
Steve Austin was the six million dollar man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Canucklehead73]

Gotta add my two cents worth...

Personally I do not think selling anything outside of maybe accounts should be permitted. Dermott is correct partly, banning dupers and exploiters is more effective than than the average joe... but I disagree that people should sell off thier items for RL cash.

Imho selling for RL cash just brings scalpers and layabouts to UO... And what I mean by that is the people who refuse to do anything in UO unless there is a nice reward in it for them to sell. These types of people just suck... Greedy antisocial pukes who ruin the game in the long run. These are the type of players who will seem to be your friend but really just want opportunity to aquire assets.

And the scalpers... they are even worse. They don't play the game in any fashion, they do not want the item/gold they recieve, they just want to get it before you do, so they can sell it off to the highest bidder. They bring nothing to the game.

Now back on topic... How to remove gold farmers from UO? Easy! Allow every player means to farm gold for themselves. So there are scriptors mining 24-7 to sell? allow everyone with a miner to script mine for the ingots they need. Some jerkoff is scripting deamons for gold? Allow players to leave their fighters killing deamons for gold... No more scriptors!

Now don't go off on a tangent and exaggerate about everyone having everything... There are only so many skills and characters and that will be the market ceiling. Take my account for example, I have a crafter, but I can only mine, or chop or smith or tailor etcetc. Not everything. And if I have a fighter out gold farming I wont be able to gather...

What that will do is remove the need to buy stuff from RL brokers/scalpers.

If you need something, you put your char on auto...

As for economy and inflation, change the loot drops to a resource/item based system instead of gold, and make NPC vendors actually hold gathered resources and base prices on how much they have... Gold given from vendors will represent the resources gathered by players. Make all "items" we all covet craftable from these resources.

Now if your some shmuck who wants to use UO as a job, your out of luck, since most people will have enough friends and guildmates to share/trade resources so that thier needs are met in-game. thier will still be layabouts tho who do not want to put the time and effort into waiting but for the most part, the scalpers market will be greatly diminished.