Hunger Nerf [it's up to us, now]

[Guest]

Well, in spite of other widely-contested changing being removed from Publish 37, the pre-ML (broken) hunger revert went through.

There certainly seemed to be enough opposition to it, as much as any other issue, but to no avail. It's probably time we launched a concerted effort to have the issue addressed.

U.Hall post here, please respond if you've an opinion:
Hunger Questions

Action from the players:
Would anyone be willing to do hunger studies on their characters, see how often they need to or can eat? This should probably be mapped against what type of activities in which they engage. We need to be fairly clear & scientific about it because at the moment all they have is anecdotal evidence from a few peeved players.

eg:
- 2 hours of paragon hunting with a pally archer, healing, casting, etc.. ate x fishsteaks
- 4 hours' Begging, ate 0 fishsteaks.

That sort of thing, perhaps a little more in-depth if it's relevant.. passive skill use, active, actions, etc. As I see it, what we need to illustrate is there actually is a problem because the dev team seem oblivious. Hopefully some hard data should appeal to them, something they can run through their programs or whatever it is they do with our feedback. Right now, it seems like they print it out & line the cat box with it.

Action from the devs:
What we also need is some official, final & irrefutable explanation of how hunger affects gameplay (if at all).

If hunger's not a factor, put it back & calm the hell down everyone who was screaming about having to -gasp- eat. Has nightsight robbed us of the perception of time passing? About 4 seconds real-time is a minute in Sosaria, roughly 24 RL mins = 6hrs in-game. Surely it's enough time for another full meal?

If hunger is a factor, tell us! Tell us exactly how it works. AoS brought a plethora of item properties math that sucked the heart & soul out of smithing and so on, now people very much play those numbers to their best advantage. Why not allow us to fully understand how hunger functions? Perhaps we can suggest some ideas seeing as we're the thousands of players beta-testing the game on a daily basis.



It's difficult to see this whole thing, after having been broken for two years and then fixed, overturned in a few short weeks. Surely we can make as much noise as those that've whined to have hunger removed.. if indeed that was the point of decision? Or was it some mysterious internal decision? Where exactly do we direct these questions?

So, basically, Cooking's just getting interesting yet has no outlet. We got a little dev attention, albeit briefly, the main thing now is can (or will) we do something about the revert?

 

[Feenicks]

indeed and stickified!

 

[Guest]

Well, I'll get the ball rolling.

I guess I'm impatient to see responses here, seeing as there are many chefs who trained up specifically for the ML goodies & a few veteran chefs who've also been waiting for Cooking to get some development. Please do contribute as you can, just keep an eye on your hunger while you're playing normally, as it affects many classes other than chefs. Spread the word among any friends or guildies you have that might want to get involved as it concerns them, too. Send them here to post their observations, we really need the numbers to get noticed.

Anyway..

My beggar/alchemist/stealther has been grinding potions, sneaking about and otherwise using all her skills. Taking damage, healing, poisoning herself, blowing herself up.. basically everything I can achieve with that character and more frenetically than I'd normally play, pushing buttons & boundaries. I haven't tried death yet, didn't think it was a reasonable expectation to die before getting hungry again, but I'll try that later. After around 3 solid hours (and having filled up beforehand), she has failed to get hungry, can't take another bite.

I also did a two hours on my gm fencer/fisher/necro, one in fishing up serpents & shipwrecks and another bashing arctic ogre lords. Took a fair beating from the AOL's.. lost stamina, health & mana all too frequently. Ate one or two fishsteaks whilst fishing until full, then managed to squeeze in another after an hour at AOL's.

Both of these characters have mediocre Focus.

I'll do some more testing, but so far I think this is far too long to go without being able to eat. It renders the enchanted food all but useless for my necro-fisher and prohibits my beggar, chiefly an RP character, from eating at all. Not terribly good for a beggar to have a permanently full belly, let alone not being able to eat when the occasion does arise.

I've a gm pally/archer, elder mage/scribe, elder peace/tamer and legendary crafter/chef to try out yet, also my beggar's an lj/miner. I'll add more as I can find the time to put into this study.

Just a general question for anyone with a suggestion: Where would be the best forum to post in order to get the devs to respond with a definitive answer on hunger as a possible game dynamic?

 

[imported_Grifty McBegg]

Unfortunately, if you're looking for "best response" you kinda have to go to U.Hall.

But then things get de-railed, you get a bunch of whining, etc. and the thread gets Dev. response, but never the kind you want.

I dunno where to go to get a real answer on the effects of hunger.

I'll try to eat next time I play, and let you know how it goes with any chars I use.

I've reserved much of this weekend for some major cleaning, but I should be able to find some UO time.

 

[Ryna]

Today: logged in full from yesterday's filling up, couldn't eat anymore.
Made a few enchanted fruits, still full.
Ran around and got GGS gains, still full.
Noble sacrificed around 15 times letting stamina regen itself, still totally full.

Gave up, logged off.

 

[Guest]

After a further 16 hours of having logged in my beggar and some mixed gameplay (partly idle at the bank due to rl concerns, partly a return to regular activities), I managed to eat another bite. This time I did some mining and a little more spellcasting (no damage taken personally, just gates & poison fields).

I had an apple this time, also a low-filling morsel. Back to completely full again. I think that's once in 30 actual hours' play that I've managed to eat on that character. Far, far too infrequent for chef's wares to be at all viable.

Until there's some dev comment on how we hunger (passage of time? skill use? stat changes?) , let alone whether it affects performance, all this food logging is just stabbing in the dark.



I had a friend who paged the gm's repeatedly over his character's ravenous hunger post ML & prior to the revert, several of them attempted to find the source of the problem & apply a fix. I thought "good for the goose, good for the gander", paged a gm asking how one hungers.. explaining that I couldn't eat & hence couldn't use buff foods. I used the option for questions that weren't otherwise covered by the standard sources.

Response is below:

<blockquote><hr>

Greetings, though we appreciate your page, this issue does not require the presence of an in-game GM. In-game support addresses only game impeding concerns that can be resolved on the spot. For this issue it is appropriate to make use of our web support. We handle all manner of concerns via our web based support, and you will find that using these sites keeps you more informed and increases your overall enjoyment of UO. I am going to provide you with the info for a few areas we find help the most.

Our Knowledge Base at support.ea.com has a searchable format and covers all aspects of UO. Use the keyword search to find your information or select the "Find Answers" link and do an advanced search with categories and sub-categories.

The Playguide has very useful information that explains different aspects of UO from beginning to end.

Honestly, we find that your fellow players are an incredible source of information. We always recommend reading or posting on our Official forums. Please keep in mind that we only sanction the forums on this site. All other information on this site is posted independently and thus is not official or guaranteed. We maintain all of our official documentation in the play guide and Support Knowledge Base mentioned above.

If these sites just aren't resolving this for you please return to the support.ea.com site, log in using your EA.com account information Account Login and send us an email using form there. Our same staff that handled your in-game requests will address your query as soon as possible.

Thank you for allowing us the time to get to those players in-game that need hands-on assistance. We appreciate this very much, as do your fellow players who are awaiting a GM. Take care.


[/ QUOTE ]

Upshot is, whether or not it was a game-impeding issue, they couldn't fix it on the spot. As to my question no direct answer.. search the EA knowledge base (nothing there), check the playguide (likewise unhelpful, although it mentioned the revert), post the forums (which mean ask other players, by the wording of the message). Having already tried these, I found the "you're wasting our time" closing paragraph an ironic touch.

I guess the email EA.com option, or an open appeal on the forums for a dev comment (which always seems frowned upon) are the way to go?

U.Hall post here:
Hunger Questions

 

[Ryna]

On my scribe/mage today and last night I died about 10 times, was dumping my mana constantly and was able to eat twice (only fruit, and I got the 'you manage to eat, but you are stuffed!' thing) during a total of 6 hours together.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

If hunger's not a factor, put it back &amp; calm the hell down everyone who was screaming about having to -gasp- eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry, not going to agree with you on that one. Eating should be there and well described by the dev team, but it should be a roleplaying factor, not a gameplay factor.

All it does is require additiona micromanaging of characters, keeping up with a system which you can't even see what level you're on, thats not good. Not to mention it would encourage even more scripting and mule chefs.

Chefs needs to be useful through other means and there are plenty of options.

 

[Rykus]

As I said in another thread.. UO needs something BADLY that it has been lacking since day one.. A TOILET.. People continually consume all of this food, yet never get rid of it. Put in toilets, allow them to be used once per day (or mebbe 4 hours), and they will reduce your hunger to 25% full. We also could really use some sort of indicator showing our hunger level.

I know, crazy thinkin', but it just might work!

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

People continually consume all of this food, yet never get rid of it. Put in toilets, allow them to be used once per day (or mebbe 4 hours), and they will reduce your hunger to 25% full.

[/ QUOTE ]

Toilets reduce your hunger levels? you eat the...erhm...floating things?

 

[Ryna]

Ok.. if people aren't supposed to eat, and chefs are supposed to be useful... umm.. How do you combine that?

The point is that it's a perk in the game that you don't have to keep up with. It's unnecessary and fun to some people.

 

[Guest]

Heheh, I made dinner for tonights meeting and I imagine most of it will just decay.

Hardly even worth rping since nobody can eat much anymore.

 

[Feenicks]

Ive always been a big fan of making things like the magic foods to give chefs a little more...

But i'm not a fan of making it so that people feel they *have* to eat. (ie suffering bad effects if they arent full) That is, for the most part, a path towards fostering resentment against chefs and, if recent events are anything to go by, setting us up for howls of protest and eventual nerfs. I mean look at the reaction of people when they were hungrier and had a perception of *having* to eat. I sure dont want to then argue that people HAVE to eat to function.

I do however think that eating should have some effects even if some of those effects are merely fun and cosmetic. Look at drunkeness ingame. It's a fun comedic effect from consuming something.

I feel other foods should perhaps have similar effects, as well as some foods that may have "potionlike" effects that effect some of these new stats we have since AOS. ie a temporary swing speed increase. Or the like.

But other food effects could be little fart emotes, or even sparklie effects and the like.

One of my first ever activities in UO was to sit with a friend on top of the little tower near WBB and have a party eating and drinking and what not.
Similarly rocking up somewhere and putting out food and having people eat that food was always fun and rewarding. It's obviously not something really done for profit, profit would be nice, at very least basic principles of being able to get ingredients for less than the end product is worth would be nice (green tea etc etc)... but at least we should have the ability for our stuff to be used, even if it's only use for fun.

 

[ZephyrBlue]

rtlfc

Well I think they should of left hunger In.
I dont notice a difference in my playstyle either way, but I thought it was neat that I could carry heavy stuff a bit more by eating.
We have to feed our pets, why dont we have to feed our characters?
Plus it was great to be training my chef and go and drop lots of food at WBB and see people swarm and start eating and make silly comments about how good the food was, It was just really a nice little addition to the game.
I really think they need to put it back in.

 

[Maith]

I agree ... why not just put it back in?

Why not make it like the fish? You know a temporary effect.

It doesn't even need to be all flashy like the special fish ... for each fish steak or meat give a strength boost of 1. For each fruit give an agility boost of 1 etc.

I am just mad about it and quite frankly, I don't know what can be done when. I can't believe people got all upset about *gasp* having to eat. I mean seriously ... just make it so we can eat so that the people who aren't whiny lazybutts can!

 

[hcjohnson]

I posted several times in the Publish update thread about hunger, and was asked to post some of it here. I wasn't sure exactly what to post, since much of what I posted was in response to other comments, but here goes, please forgive if it goes long, I did leave out the quoted sections, maybe it still makes sense:
**************(from my previous posts)
"Ok, maybe I 'bought into' the myth. I don't claim to be an expert on any of it. My comments are strictly from my own experience... and while it may have been a coincidence, I did notice I could stimulate further gains on my skill attempts sometimes by eating. Therefore, I assigned it to that 'myth'. If it is an error, so be it... leave eating IN the game at a realistic level.. I still think it should be tied to performance. IE: if you haven't eaten in a while.. say 12 hours, you should begin to loose stamina and become more clumsy at performing whatever you are doing, for instance fall of the danged horse if you forget to eat and that should let the poor horse go wild because you probably forgot to feed it too!!! "

***************

In response about 'banksitters' not getting hungry and the suggestion that my character was not doing anything which should make them hungry:
"From personal observation and experience... I NEVER get hungry in real life unless I am out murdering cows or orcs... It has done wonders for my figure and cuts down tremendously on the grocery bills, since I so rarely get out to slaughter ogres and ettin and orc.. or any other of the nasty bads for that matter..*for those who don't recognize sarcasm, that was some right there..* "

*******************
"I agree that the eating was a bit on the frenzied side and needed toning down, but certainly not to the state it was before ML came out. It really needs to be set back to the Pre AOS levels and tied to performance, not healing, the way it was then. Just my opinion, of course.. but then that's what this thread is about anyway. "

****************

" Perhaps I missed the item to which you were replying, but in the places I read, we noted that the bowls had to be gotten by buying food from the npc and eating it, THEN you could make the fruit baskets. The problem as it relates to the bowls is that if hunger is not present, you can't eat the food, thus emptying the bowl in the first place. So Eating is an Issue with making the fruit baskets.. as is the fact that in order to use the fruit basket, enchanted apple and grapes of wrath, you have to be hungry. "

**************************
General:

Reverted the hunger system back to the way it worked prior to Mondain’s Legacy

"Wow. Nice list. I applaud many of those fixes.. I am more than a little annoyed with the food issue again. We finally get to eat and be chefs again, and now it's gone again. Please note the fact that we cannot make the nice new fruit basket without eating a bowl of food purchased at the NPC... that effectively stifles my new GM Chef and who knows how many others who got excited at the possibliity of cooking and EATING again! My characters ARE mostly Crafters, and someone said because they don't get injured and have to heal, they don't get hungry. Well that flat out STINKS! My poor girls haven't been able to eat in MONTHS!!!!!! The "lord giveth, and the lord snatcheth back!!!" Such a TEASE!!!!"

****************** In Summation:*************
The "long and short" of it all is this: "I don't see why it can't just be put back to the situation where if you didn't eat from time to time you lost some effectiveness. Munch a snack, and your ability is back up to snuff. I mean really, if you were wandering around the world not eating and ... just wandering... eventually you would fall down from weakness due to the hunger. It makes sense to have to eat now and then just to be able to function. Not to heal.. just to stay alive and functioning!!

When I first started playing, I attended weddings and other events where we were served various foods and drinks and enjoyed the fellowship of it all. That is impossible now. Taking away the ability to eat outside of combat situations is very anti social to say the very least. Meanwhile, I will be making no magical foods... no nice new fruit baskets.. and the 160k of fish steak and 2000 bread loaves I created in earning my "chef" hat, are taking up lockdowns and nothing more. I make parrot wafers and that's nice.. but it sure isn't the only thing I planned to do when I worked up that skill. And not taking into account the 100 skill points I have taking up space uselessly!!!!!

 

[hcjohnson]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

If hunger's not a factor, put it back &amp; calm the hell down everyone who was screaming about having to -gasp- eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry, not going to agree with you on that one. Eating should be there and well described by the dev team, but it should be a roleplaying factor, not a gameplay factor.

All it does is require additiona micromanaging of characters, keeping up with a system which you can't even see what level you're on, thats not good. Not to mention it would encourage even more scripting and mule chefs.

Chefs needs to be useful through other means and there are plenty of options.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are "options" for chefs to be "useful" outside of making food? What an interesting concept. And here I thought the very NATURE of a CHEF was to COOK Food and FEED people!!!!!!!

 

[Perianwyr_FwV]

<blockquote><hr>

There are "options" for chefs to be "useful" outside of making food? What an interesting concept. And here I thought the very NATURE of a CHEF was to COOK Food and FEED people!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

If the food ain't useful, it may as well not exist.

 

[archy-europa]

Hunger in game has had some effect on my lumberjack/bowery full hour of chopping and making bows was able to to eat 3 cooked ribs.
My chef from forum was made in 1 lovely months time of dough and breads

in 1hr per day segments. With latest pub has cause loss of appetite.

Middle road suggestment would be to allow eating with no effect. If person eats in game fine then he/she are enjoying one more part in RP in the UO world. And since feeding our tames helps increase our tames loyalty.

Since going on a hunger strike would have no effect.

 

[hcjohnson]

I have noticed that my non combat characters can actually eat ONE item every several realtime hours. Not sure if this is a fluke, or means they left Some eating in, it is not satisfactory though. And I am in agreement about the ability to eat a snack helping sometimes to 'bump' you up when not making gains or in your failure rates while working on crafts or things.

 

[Turak]

First, let me say that I almost never post as I hate getting caught up in the silly debates that seem to spring up over alot of the changes, but I just had to speak up regarding this HUNGER debate. I have been playing UO since September 1997, meaning that I have seen every change that has went into the game, so I am very, very familiar with how the rules have changed over time. Many of the changes I have liked and many I have not liked.

This particular post relates to the HUNGER changes and the seemingly lack of understanding of how it works/supposed to work or should I say the 'myth' of hunger.

NUMBER 1 MYTH - Hunger affects skill, skillgain, stats, statgain, speed, success ability when doing things, etc.

-This has been debated over and over and over, every since the beginning of the game. It has been checked and rechecked by EVERY past Dev team (not sure about current team) and the same confirmation has came down each time....HUNGER DOES NOT AFFECT ANY OF THE ABOVE.

Throughout the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE GAME, hunger has only ever affected two things; stamina (replacing a little with each piece of food you eat) and hit points (replacing a very small amount with each piece of food eaten).

A little history.... When the game first came out there was only what people now know as Felluca. The rules were somewhat similiar to todays rules regarding being able to kill people at will. The way hunger worked then was that slowly over time you would get hungry, or if you ran around alot, or if you pushed through things...which was a good thing for a few reasons, but there was one really important one. The 'push-through' rule/function. Basically you could walk/push through a person/monster/animal, but every time you did, it took a little bit of stamina away from you. Well, one of the favorite ganks was to surround a person with a few people (i think it was 5) and as they tried to push through each person they would lose stamina till they were totally out and couldn't move. Then they would be ganked to death. The Dev teamed made it so that each time you ate a piece of food, it would restore a small amount of stamina and an even smaller amount of hit points. It was basically a way to help a person from being trapped and ganked to death.

When Trammel came and the new 'push-through' rule was implemented and stamina seemed to last almost indefinitely, well...there was simply almost no reason to eat anymore because you almost never ran low on stamina.

Plus, I think the DEV teams were getting a little tired of listening/checking and trying to convince people that hunger was not tied into the skill/stat gain systems.

Now, I know people who swear that they get better gains when they eat or are full. Unfortuneately, it simply isn't true. Many, many people, including every DEV team except the current one, has checked and verified that it DOES NOT affect SKILL or STAT gains. But, I know that there a still people convinced that they get better gains, smiths that are convinced they succeeed more often when full, etc.

I personally have two accounts and have ran tests at least 3 different times; 1. When UO only had 1 facet. 2. After the Felluca/Trammel split and 3. After AOS came out.

The absolute worst change was the AOS change that made it so that a person was almost NEVER hungry. Ruined Chefs, Cooking profession, ability to gain a little stamina back when totally out (yes I know there are other ways, but none as cheap), etc.

This proposed implementation of hunger is working is about the closest to the way that it was originally designed and intended to work, as I have seen in the last few years. There are really quite a few advantages for quite a few people to keep it this way.

By the way, the number 2 myth used to be that Luck had an affect on things. It actually does now, but for a LONG time it didn't do squat. But sheesh the debates raged.

Anyhow, my vote is to IMPLEMENT HUNGER AS IT USED TO BE. Again this is closer to how it was designed to and intended to function, plus there are many more reason to leave it this way than there are to revert it back to the never hungry system.

 

[hcjohnson]

I've read this information several times in various places and I do not dispute your source or information. I still reserve my right to my own opinion, however, and whatever the reason, I have definitely experienced gains and improvements in both behavior and skills after eating. Whether this is an intended, actual or coincidental event does not matter to me. IMHO, it is simply stupid to remove food as a useful game item.

When I was introduced to the game, just before Lord Blackthorn's Revenge came out, a comment was made that 'a whole society' was living and breathing in this game. People had 'jobs', made friends, enjoyed day to day mundane things like sitting on a log talking and sharing a few fish cakes from time to time. The sharing of bread is an important sociological event. Eating 'salt' together, breaking bread, those are physical reminders of how relationships are glued together, it's one of the most common forms of socialization. Perhaps that is another reason so many of us miss the ability to eat in the game setting.

As I said, I have read your information before and I know you intend to be enlightening and helpful. Thank you for the intent at least. Some other nice people posted very much the same. Whether it is an imagined benefit or not doesn't matter one bit to me. The whole 'world' of UO is imagined, right down to the last bit of mandrake root. Please allow us a few harmless illusions.

(edit added here)
I reread my post and felt perhaps it seemed insulting to you. That was not my intent. (Especially since we are on the same side! JK, I try to not be unpleasant most of the time.) I hope you understand that I do not mean to be insulting and think it is very good of you to go to the trouble to make such an informative post. There is a quote somewhere for me to misquote here, 'please don't confuse the issue with facts', is as close as I can come to it right now.

I have a lot of weird beliefs and this wouldn't be the first time I crossed over into the realms of mystery and legend.

Please note my sig. I chose it for a reason.

 

[OldTurtle]

<blockquote><hr>

When I was introduced to the game..... a comment was made that 'a whole society' was living and breathing in this game. People had 'jobs', made friends, enjoyed day to day mundane things like sitting on a log talking and sharing a few fish cakes from time to time. The sharing of bread is an important sociological event. Eating 'salt' together, breaking bread, those are physical reminders of how relationships are glued together, it's one of the most common forms of socialization. Perhaps that is another reason so many of us miss the ability to eat in the game setting.

Please allow us a few harmless illusions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Amen. I don't care whether or not food "does" anything. I'd be content to have hunger back to facilitate roleplay and preserve the illusion.

Please Dev's, let us "munch, munch" again... You can remain mum about what benefits eating may or may not bestow. But please give us back "the munchies".

 

[Guest]

Thanks, Ryna, for your comment in the following thread:

Pub37 discussion #2

Wilki has responded on page four of the above discussion with the following:

"Cause it was the quick way to solve the problem. We're going to adjust that so it works as intended."

How quickly it is resolved remains to be seen but this is somewhat more encouraging than stonewall silence as with the AoS nerf. Oh, and he also said he'd pass on the NPC wooden bowl suggestion to a designer.

*tentative happy dance*

 

[Ryna]

Awesome, I forgot to check that once I posted.

Thanks for the update!

 

[Guest]

It's good news, but we probably shouldn't sit back &amp; say "problem solved" until we see some developments. Probably shouldn't harangue them for updates, either.. somewhere in between, eh?

I'll repost my previous comment in the UHall thread.

 

[Cat Crimson]

<blockquote><hr>



Wilki has responded on page four of the above discussion with the following:

"Cause it was the quick way to solve the problem. We're going to adjust that so it works as intended."



[/ QUOTE ]


But the thing is, if eating really did not affect anything apart from stamina and hp, WHY DID IT NEED A QUICK WAY TO SOLVE IT IF THERE WAS NOTHING TO SOLVE APART FROM SHUTTING UP THE ENDLESS " I'M FAILING BECAUSE I;M HUNGRY " WHINERS !!!!!

Gah.
And again, gah.

 

[Guest]

Hmm..

Perhaps because you could throw down enchanted food quickly which'd basically negate necro curses &amp; other abilities. No wait, that couldn't be it, we warned them about that during beta..

Speaking of food effects, does anyone still have the Age of Shadows manual?

I was talking to someone today and he mentioned various properties eating is supposed to affect. I asked him the source on that info &amp; he said the AoS manual, which I found ironic considering that's when hunger was initially broken. Anyhow, I don't have my copy anymore (shredded it and gave it to my pet mice...) so if anyone could quote that info here I'd appreciate it.

 

[hcjohnson]

I have my manual, but I didn't see any mention of food or eating in it. I suppose in my hurried look through, I may have missed something. I am about to cash in for the night though. I will look more thoroughly tomorrow. I looked in Lord Blackthorn's Manual too...

 

[Ryna]

Wilki posted concerning hunger here about whether hunger effects success and skill gain.

<blockquote><hr>

It certainly doesn't now, and as far as I know, it never has. It also doesn't change the RNG at all. Neither does dying.

After I looked at the code, and thought back to how I committed suicide everytime my pack was full while working tinkering, and all the time I spent recalling around and running back and forth across the server lines in Buc's Den... let's just say you don't need to do any of those things.

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Guest]

Excellent. Once again we're in your debt, Ryna.

Any mods about? Could we have Wilki's response(s) quoted &amp; stickied to the top of the forum for future reference?

 

[Ryna]

I just have too much time on my hands :cP

Ryna's first GM was cookin'..

(btw.. cooking in Ashen Empires is THE WIN) [/promo]

 

[Ryna]

Good GOD.

Both Wilki and JIB responded.. and people are calling them liars!

Like they can see the code!

"What does eating do?"
'Well Billy.. not much.. Just a little stamina.'
"Nuh-uh!! YOU"RE A LIAR1!!! I *know* it does more than that. I've proven it a billion trillion gazillion times!!!!"
'.....'

You'd think we were trying to tell them that Santa doesn't exist or that beer has just become extinct or something.

 

[hcjohnson]

I am originally from Missouri... Show Me State.... makes us hard to convince of amorphous things like that eating food might not help you to be more productive. It may be all in my head, but no one has managed to make me question my own experience with eating helping to break a dry streak or have less failures... Don't anyone bother me with 'so called' facts...

In my little world it works, and by depriving me of the ability to eat at will, my productivity is definitly down!!!!

*Snowy's a little weird sometimes.. don't mind her. She wanders off and I have to go get her and bring her home...* I didn't like having to eat every 5 minutes either, but I REALLY hate not getting to eat but once a week or so!

I don't doubt the word of those who wrote the code, who read it or who tested.. The statement that it doesn't affect gameplay is just wrong. It affects my gameplay and anyone else's who enjoys having a banquet for friends or even just the illusion of going through normal actions. Whether it will bump us into better performance or assist us in any way does not cancel out the personal desire to use it. Heck, maybe it's just a 'last ditch effort' when we are frustrated at not making an expected gain.. maybe it is all mental.. but it is definitely an important part of game play for a good portion of the population. We can feed the pets 10000 apples and they will still eat the next one offered, yet here we sit unable to eat. Even my warrior thinks she can battle forever on one fish steak or an apple. Reality Check!!! Some of us (and not that small a population, I would guess) WANT to be able to snack whether it assists us or not!

 

[Guest]

I also think that being from the Show Me State also leads to another point. Our compulsive need to feed disorder.
Most folks around here grew up with familys that insisted on stuffing you silly.

If I have to diet in rl I don't want to have to do it in UO! C'mon give us one thing that we can eat as much as we want and never gain weight!
*munchies on raspberry chocolate brownies*

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

The statement that it doesn't affect gameplay is just wrong. It affects my gameplay and anyone else's who enjoys having a banquet for friends or even just the illusion of going through normal actions. Whether it will bump us into better performance or assist us in any way does not cancel out the personal desire to use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I went to a player-run Christmas party last night. Excellent event, but it was disappointed that I couldn't eat my cake.

 

[hcjohnson]

Hey!!! I did my part to keep the children overseas in underprivileged countries from starving!! "Clean your plate... Children are starving in other countries!"

 

[Feenicks]

<blockquote><hr>

Excellent. Once again we're in your debt, Ryna.

Any mods about? Could we have Wilki's response(s) quoted &amp; stickied to the top of the forum for future reference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive added it as an addendum to the FAQ

 

[Justy]

I think that it is safe to say that anyone who taken the time to GM cooking certainly wants hunger to return. I would like it if there were an 'incentive' to eating. However, if people were just 'hungry' over time I could live with that too. I agree with the breaking bread reference. Its a good point. Its a nice RP tool to have people hungry so that food can used.

In the Ultima games, if you didn't eat, you died. You lost hit points every turn. If gremlins stole all your food deep in a dungeon you were screwed. Likewise if you ran out of food between cities, you were in trouble. Wouldn't those rules be nice for us chefs.

 

[Deryk the Pirate]

hmmm I have been playing UO on and off for over 4 years... my friend who is an avid role player absolutely insisted that you have to eat... well I have tried it and havent noticed any differences in performance from eating or not eating. And with tameing, once my pet is bonded unless we arent on the same screen and i call them they all stay wonderfully happy... rarely do i have to feed my bonded pets.

 

[Llewen]

I realize this is a really old thread, but this debate is an interesting example of why I left UO in the first place so many years ago, and also a fine example of something that game developers just don't seem to get.

The question is, how do you get clients for your mmorpg, and keep them? That is at the heart of this discussion. Most game developers for mmorpg's try to answer this question by asking the question, "What is it that clients like to do when they are playing mmorpg's?" This simple answer to this is killing and puzzles, that's what people like in games.

The problem with an mmorpg is that when you create a puzzle in the game within five minutes someone has solved the puzzle and posted it somewhere and pretty soon every fansite on the web has the solution, which renders the puzzle useless (this is ot, but I’ll just say this quickly, if developers want to add puzzles to mmorpg’s they need to create random puzzle generators, for example a function that generates random sudoku puzzles). So basically all you are left with in most mmorpg’s is killing. So developers spend all their time trying to make the killing as interesting and involving as possible, which is the case with games like WoW.

And in a way there is nothing wrong with this, games like WoW have been extremely successful based on this mmorpg game theory. What disappoints me about it though is that creating an mmorpg using this meta objective as a foundation for the game will produce a game that doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of what an mmorpg could really be. This development path will produce a fun video game, and I expect the majority of players will come and play for a few months, then move on to something else, then maybe at some point later on remember that they had some fun playing this game, and come back and play for a few more months, but in my opinion an mmorpg can be so much more than this.

In my opinion game developers need to change their way of thinking about mmorpg’s if they are going to create a game that is worthy of the genre, and absolutely no one has done this yet - no one. But sales are still important, an mmorpg is an expensive thing to develop and maintain, so you absolutely need paying clients, and if you want to succeed you will have shareholders, and you want to make a profit for those shareholders. So the first thing you do is separate the development and sales departments. Even if you only have three employees, you make two of them game developers, and one of them whose full time department is sales and promotions.

The next thing you do is tell the developers to forget about sales and concern themselves only with creating a truly great mmorpg. This is an absolute must and this is what has been missing. Developers have tried to make great games, or great video games, but not great mmorpg’s. But even more than this developers of mmorpg’s have been concerned with sales and keeping subscribing clients, and I think this is the main reason why no mmorpg has come even close to scratching the surface of what an mmorpg can really be.

Before I get into what I think would make a great mmorpg I think it is important to underline why I think developers of games need to stop worrying about sales and concentrate on the games. One of the main reasons why I think this is vitally important is that I also think, from a business perspective, that this is what will ensure success. What you are primarily concerned about from a business perspective with mmorpg’s is longevity. You want your clients to subscribe to your game, and, if possible, you want them to subscribe for the rest of their lives. This is the ultimate goal. While the genre is different one of the greatest examples of longevity in the world of computer games is the Civilization franchise.

The Civilization series has sold very well, but even more than that those that play Civilization have been playing it since it was first released, and have never stopped. I am sure that there are many that pick up the game, play it a few times, and then drop it, but I also know from being involved with the online community dedicated to the Civilization series that it has inspired loyalty as probably very few computer and video games ever have. The Civilization online community is one of the most active I have ever seen.

So how has Sid Meier managed to do this? Has he had a great sales campaign? Has he decided that computer games are all about killing and concentrated on that? The answer to both these questions is probably no. I very much doubt that the sales efforts for the Civilization series have been revolutionary in any way, and I doubt that more effort and energy was put into sales than has been put into thousands of much less successful titles. And the game is certainly not all about killing. In fact you could probably play an entire, exciting game of Civilization IV and never go to war once if that was your bent or playstyle.

It is true that the developers of the Civilization series have listened to their community. They have responded to both positive and negative feedback, but before there was ever a Civilization community Civilization was already a great game, Civilization was already a work of art. And this is the primary reason for Civilization’s success. It isn’t the McDonald’s of computer games. It is detailed, involving, complicated and absolutely absorbing. It has longevity because every game can be different, even with the first version of Civilization. It wasn’t all about one thing, it wasn’t all about slaughtering your opponents, it was about details and attention to detail, and challenging situations that require creative solutions, it was about allowing many paths to a successful outcome, none of which were guaranteed to succeed. Long before the bean counters took over Sid Meier had a fantastic idea for a game, and it was the game that mattered. Sales campaigns are important it is true, but if you want to create a game with longevity, that will inspire loyalty, and hopefully, fanaticism, the game development has to be more important than the sales and publicity department.

So what is it that will make a truly great mmorpg? What is it that the developers of mmorpg’s seem to not understand? What is the potential of this genre? What is it that would make an mmorpg more than just a social time waster, but a real work of art? A truly great mmorpg will be more than a video game, it will be an alternate universe, a virtual world that a client can immerse themselves completely in.

So how do you do this? Well this finally leads back to the original topic of this thread. You do this by creating details that allow the client to suspend their disbelief. Even though Ultima Online has fallen far short of this objective it is still, in my opinion, the mmorpg that has journeyed farthest along this path. How did it do this, through details like having to eat, and being able to build and own a house. Computer mmorpg’s have an incredible advantage over the old pnp rpg’s in that you can use a computer to incorporate an incredible level of detail, and make it simple. This is one of the secrets to the success of Civilization. You can micromanage if you want, you can delve as deeply into the game mechanics as you have the time and desire to do so, but if you don’t want to, the a.i. can keep it simple and do the work of micromanaging for you. But the detail is still there. Since Civilization was first created very little has been “nerfed”, in fact, if anything the game has only added more layers of satisfying complexity since it was first created - hundreds of little details that make you stop and say, “I can’t believe they thought of that.”

So instead of getting rid of hunger in the game, or making it completely useless, the developers should have made it so that if you have food in your pack and you are hungry, the default behaviour for your character is to eat if you stop for a moment to take a breath, or if you camp. And as should be the case with every action of this sort, if you don’t want the a.i. to handle this, there should be a configuration option that makes it entirely player controlled.

The complaints that the developers have heard and responded to about hunger and eating should have been an opportunity to make the game more interesting, and more immersive. Instead this opportunity was completely squandered, and one of the details that actually made Ultima Online more interesting, and more original, was virtually wrecked and rendered impotent and an entire profession was destroyed.

 

[hcjohnson]

AMEN!!! You are definitely preaching to the Choir here.. Perhaps someone who can make a difference is paying attention as well!

 

[Lair Spirit]

I read somewhere that you only become hungry after naturally healing.

So if you're redlined and heal without a spell or bandage, you'll want to nibble something after.

Not sure where I saw that but I remember it was from a reliable source. And probably linked through one of the links in this thread

Makes sense sort of.

 

[Llewen]

Having received a little encouragement, I thought I'd add something to my essay from above. Rykus mentioned something about toilets. I assumed he was being sarcastic, but it raises an interesting question which applies to the topic at hand. When does the level of detail or realism become annoying and/or ridiculous, and actually detract from the game? Well for me there are two answers.

First off, I don't think there is such a thing as "too much detail" in a computer game, but there are such things as stupid annoying details, and well done details. The second answer is that, as a game developer, you have to prioritize. An mmorpg that is trying to create an alternate universe could potentially be as detailed, or even more detailed than our life here "in the real world". Simply put, a million coders and artists, could spend a thousand years coding an mmorpg and still not incorporate the level of detail that the genre could potentially support - and then of course you would inevitably arrive at a point where technology simply couldn't support the product's potential.

So I will deal with the second answer first. How do you prioritize? How do you decide what is worth spending your limited development resources on? Well in my opinion, if you are creating an alternate fantasy universe, you think about what is important to people, and what people enjoy fantasizing about. The warrior and wizard myths are deeply ingrained in our culture, so obviously combat and wizardry are important, but other things deserve a place on the priority list. People fantasize about relationships, and possessions like houses and castles, and clothes, and they most definitely fantasize about food. People don't generally fantasize about going to the toilet, unless they are caught in the middle of a long religious service from which they can't easily extricate themselves... But food is important, and as such, I think it most definitely deserves a place on the priority list.

But having said that, as I said above, I don't think there is such a thing as too much detail in an mmorpg. So as much as Rykus may have been joking, or being sarcastic, with his toilet remark, I think there is a place for that in the game. It just depends on how you do it. While I think actually forcing characters to urinate and defecate periodically would be ridiculous, you can incorporate the effects of necessary bodily functions into the game.

How do you do this? Well face it, the expression "being caught with your pants down" is based on true experiences. What would be cool to see would be an initiative, alertness, or spotting system brought into the game. When mobs are within a certain range a random check is made which could easily be based on a skill, and the result determines how close a mob is to you before they are dispayed on your screen in some way. A catastrophic failure means they would be right on top of you before you are aware of their presence, and would nicely simulate the effects of "being caught with your pants down".

I realize a system like this will never happen in UO, but this is just an example of how just about any level of detail can be represented in an mmorpg in a way the makes the game more interesting, challenging, and fun. Long live the chefs!

 

[Ryna]

Nothing big, but here Wilki stated:
<blockquote><hr>

You make very valid points in this post. I doubt that we'll remove them entirely, but there obviously needs to be some limitations on their use.

Consumables/hunger needs to be looked at in general.


[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Guest]

From the House of Commons chat log for May 4th

<blockquote><hr>

athos : In regard to the changes to corpse skin in Pub 40, it is stated in "five on friday" that the hunger will be adjusted in the future. Japanese players would not like to see that PCs become less hungry than now. Please nerf only the effect of apples if necessary, but let PCs get more hungry. We'd like to eat more food at PC taverns or pubs, or at the player-run parties, which has nothing to do with the usefulnes

MrTact: I think there's a happy medium there, where food eaten for roleplaying purposes need not be as filling as the special foods from ML that give you bonuses, like the curse apples.

MrTact: But we definitely need to make it easier to fill up on those useful foods. Right now you can eat them more or less continuously, which is a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]


Encouraging talk.

 

[hcjohnson]

Just a small note on this discussion: I realize 'you (Devs) can't please all the people'.. etc... and it is unrealistic to think small representative groups such as chefs have a lot of status in the long line of people who 'want' things added or fixed or beefed up or trimmed down. But we are still out here, and while the requests we make may not be high priority, we hope they are still on the 'to do' list and not in the trash can. We are not the players who will quit over our profession being 'nerfed' but that doesn't mean we are thrilled with the work we did being useless.

 

[Quiby]

<blockquote><hr>

but that doesn't mean we are thrilled with the work we did being useless.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cooking is only really as useless as you want it to be.
I'm not sure how long you've been playing, but I remember the days when the publishes were pre-teen (ouch... that's such a cringe-worthy way of putting it, but I can't remember the relevant numbers). If cooking was ever useless, it was then.
Everything turned around when the Savages appeared.

Don't lose heart.
Change takes time, but it always comes.

 

[hcjohnson]

Interestingly, your post does give me hope. Overall, I believe UO is evolving nicely. Pleasing 100% of your clients is an impossibility.. actually, it would probably be a miracle if they pleased 50% at any given time. My White Chapeau is off to them for trying to keep most of us happy. (no one needs to post the tired old saw about the almighty dollar here, ok?)

 

[Quiby]

That would be a first...
I'm a lousy motivational speaker...

I do take heart in the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that they've made a "They'll have to suck it up" decision.