Hit Lower Defense Formula ???

[Airhaun]

How do you calculate Hit Lower Defense?

I've always assumed if you had M&D glasses with 30% HLD and say a weapon with 20% HLD than you were at the cap of 50% HLD.

However recently I was told that my HLD would actually only be 36% using the following formula.

M&D Glasses: 30%
War Fork: 20% HLD

30% + (30% * 20%) = 36% HLD

Can anybody verify this for me please?

Thanks!

 

[Connor_Graham]

I don't know the exact formula, but I do know that with the 30 from M&S glasses and 50 from a wep, you'd have a total of 65% chance for it to go off.

 

[Farsight]

Approximately:
(HLD from weapon) + (100%-HLD from weapon)*(HLD from glasses)

So in your example, it would be:
20% + (100%-20%)*(30%) = 44%

And in Connor's example, it would be
50% + (100%-50%)*(30%) = 65%

Disclaimer: The calculation is not done this way in the code, but rather, the chances are calculated separately (or so I've been led to believe), which leads to the non-linear HLD chances from independent sources.

 

[Hildebrand]

Connor's right.
It has to do with averages of percentages or something rather.
When you swing your weapon, you have two chances for HLD to go off (plus whatever your other leeches might be).
So you have 30% chance, then 20% chance, not 50%.

 

[Old Man of UO]

No no no... here's the formula:

HLD Total = [1-(1-HLD1)*(1-HLD2)*(1-HLD3)...]

in this case with two items at 30% HLD and 20% HLD, the numbers are:
HLD Total = [1-(1-0.30)*(1-0.20)] = 0.44 or 44%

p.s. it has nothing to do with TWO chances to go off as Hildebrand suggested.

 

[Farsight]

On searching the playguide, I can confirm that:

Hit Lower Defense - A successful hit with this weapon lowers the defense rating of the target by 25% for 8 seconds against all attackers. There is no cap on HLD. HLD percentages are multiplied rather than added - for example, if you have two items, one with a 30% chance and one with a 50% chance, then that?s a 65% chance that the effect will fire on any given hit. The effect does not stack with itself, although additional effects will reset the duration.

In other words, Old Man is the most correct from the previous answers (including mine).

 

[Old Man of UO]

On searching the playguide, I can confirm that:

Hit Lower Defense - A successful hit with this weapon lowers the defense rating of the target by 25% for 8 seconds against all attackers. There is no cap on HLD. HLD percentages are multiplied rather than added - for example, if you have two items, one with a 30% chance and one with a 50% chance, then that?s a 65% chance that the effect will fire on any given hit. The effect does not stack with itself, although additional effects will reset the duration.

In other words, Old Man is the most correct from the previous answers (including mine).

HLD Total = [1-(1-0.30)*(1-0.50)] = 0.65 or 65%

 

[Connor_Graham]

p.s. it has nothing to do with TWO chances to go off as Hildebrand suggested.

Yes it does. If you have the glasses and also have it on your wep, it has 2 chances to go off. The forumla is merely to determine what the % chance that one of the 2 will go off is.

 

[Old Man of UO]

Yes it does. If you have the glasses and also have it on your wep, it has 2 chances to go off. The forumla is merely to determine what the % chance that one of the 2 will go off is.

Okay... that doesn't make sense to me and I am sure the math does not work out that way.

If you have two items, one at 50% and one at 30% HLD, the combined HLD is 65%. Period. If they each had a chance to go off, then the combined HLD would have to be something other than 65%, either 50% or 30%, which make no sense to me.

Based on "The forumla is merely to determine what the % chance that one of the 2 will go off is," what is the HLD percentage then? It either goes off or it doesn't. It lasts just as long once it is active whether there is a 1% HLD or 100%. The combined HLD determines how often it goes off, not whether the 50% or 30% HLD takes effect. So I don't understand what that means.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Wilki explained everything in one of the FoF's. Simply put, if you have HLD on both glasses and wep, either one has a chance to go off with every successful hit. The %'s don't stack, which is where the example of 65% comes from. That's the combined % chance for one of the 2 to go off with each hit.

 

[Storm]

connor is correct about with 2 hld items they both can go off and they do not stack !
but it does reset the timer

 

[Old Man of UO]

connor is correct about with 2 hld items they both can go off and they do not stack !
but it does reset the timer

Ya, I know they don't stack (they multiply the differences) and I understand where the combined HLD comes from, which is the percentage chance that the effect is applied. The timer is only reset if it should go off a subsequent time while the first one is in effect. But this says nothing about each having a chance to go off... this is simply not possible and still have the overall HLD of 65%.

If you can sort of "show me the numbers" then I might be able to understand your explanation.

 

[Storm]

From the February 23, 2007 FoF:

"The maximum attainable HLD% is 80%. Do the effects stop before 80%, or is there currently no hardcap on HLD%?"
There is no cap for Hit Lower Defense or Hit Lower Attack.

Remember, the percentage on these abilities is the chance that the effect will fire each hit. So if you have two items, one with a 30% chance and one with a 50% chance, then that’s a 65% chance that the effect will fire on any given hit. (The percentages are multiplied, rather than added.) The actual lower attack/defense percentage is ALWAYS -25%.

 

[Storm]

I still have not found the exact formula but it should be something like

(hld1+hld2) -(hld1*hld2)=total hld%
this is just a rough formula its probably a little more involved but thats the general idea as I see it (but I have been wrong before)

 

[Old Man of UO]

I still have not found the exact formula but it should be something like

(hld1+hld2) -(hld1*hld2)=total hld%
this is just a rough formula its probably a little more involved but thats the general idea as I see it (but I have been wrong before)

No, close... it's the one I posted above.
HLD Total = [1-(1-HLD1)*(1-HLD2)*(1-HLD3)...]

I think you are misunderstanding what it means when items don't stack. They each have a chance to trigger the effect, but it really has no overall difference whether you have one, two or three items for the combined total. The effect is exactly the same. Only their total HLD is multiplied instead of added to give a diminishing return.

 

[Storm]

lol oops i guess i should have read the post above a little better did not even notice the formula!
They each have a chance to trigger the effect! true
but it really has no overall difference whether you have one, two or three items for the combined total. The effect is exactly the same. true
Only their total HLD is multiplied instead of added to give a diminishing return. true

and the higher your chance for hld to take effect the more you have up to a cap of 80

 

[Old Man of UO]

lol oops i guess i should have read the post above a little better did not even notice the formula!
They each have a chance to trigger the effect! true
but it really has no overall difference whether you have one, two or three items for the combined total. The effect is exactly the same. true
Only their total HLD is multiplied instead of added to give a diminishing return. true

and the higher your chance for hld to take effect the more you have up to a cap of 80

A Lady who understands math!

But sorry, there is no cap on HLD according to UOGuide, just limited number of items with HLD available in game.

Here is some additional info on HLD:
--

Do multiple successful hits with Hit Lower Attack or Hit Lower Defense stack? (Can I effectively reduce their defense / attack chance to 0?)
No, the effect does not stack (it will reset the duration, though.)

If two people with Hit Lower Defense / Attack strike simultaneously, is the effect stacked?
No, the effect does not stack.

Do other attackers get the same benefit from hit lower defense?
Yes, the effect is global, not specific to that particular attacker.

--

 

[Storm]

But sorry, there is no cap on HLD according to UOGuide, just limited number of items with HLD available in game.
I think i need glasses rgg there is no cap true just the cap that items give atm!
its all because you all made me do math early! lol

 

[Farsight]

Isn't math fun?

I haven't actually taken probability in about 17 years, and I never use it outside of playing card games, hence my entirely accurate, but oversimplified version of the formula at the start.

So the odds of an independently rolled HLD calculation from each individual result and the results of plugging the possible results into the formula are exactly the same. But, since the programmer has told us that the odds are multiplied instead of added, I would tend to believe that they just made the program so that it uses the formula and calculates the lower defense chance from the result (so as to never go over 100% no matter how many HLD items one carrries) rather than making an independent calculation for every HLD item you have.

It does save operation cycles, since you would only have to plug the numbers into the formula once and save it to the character rather than making two (or, in theory, more, but only two slots can hold the HLD mod at the moment) separate calculations for each hit.

Anyhow, the results remain the same, as the end-user, we really shouldn't care (outside of curiosity) how they got to the results.

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
So the odds of an independently rolled HLD calculation from each individual result and the results of plugging the possible results into the formula are exactly the same. But, since the programmer has told us that the odds are multiplied instead of added, I would tend to believe that they just made the program so that it uses the formula and calculates the lower defense chance from the result (so as to never go over 100% no matter how many HLD items one carrries) rather than making an independent calculation for every HLD item you have.
...

That's the gist of it. The only way to ever get to 100% HLD is to have an item with 100% HLD, then no matter how many items with HLD, it would total 100% because of the multiplication.