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Discussion: Melee Magic Abilities

SouthPaw

Lore Master
I want to have a discussion about the melee magic abilities: piercing, slashing, bashing, wrestling mastery, and battle defense.

I'm more interested in discussing the skill mastery moves that come with each of these magic abilities than I am with the special moves they come with that most people who post here already have experience with. I will post the details of each of those skill masteries below.

What pets have you used with these magic abilities? What has worked well and what didn't? Which masteries seem the best or most effective in your experience? Are any of them broke or just terrible abilities?

Piercing Mastery:
Thrust
: Toggle ability that provides increased physical attack damage and decreases targets physical attack damage based on mastery level to the fencer that consumes mana while active. This ability does not stack with the special move Feint. Damage is capped in pvp at 35.
Pierce: The fencer executes a piercing move on their opponent causing a stamina debuff and stamina drain on the victim based on the fencer’s fencing and tactics Skill, and mastery level

Bashing Mastery:
Stagger:
The mace fighter executes a staggering move on their opponent causing a swing speed increase debuff and massive damage to the victim based on mastery level.
Toughness: Toggle ability that provides the mace fighter with increased hit points based on the mace fighter’s tactics and mace fighting skill, and mastery level that consumes mana while active.

Slashing Mastery:
Onslaught:
The swordsman executes an onslaught of attacks on their opponent reducing one of their victim’s resists based on the swordsman’s swordsmanship and tactics skill and the damage type of the weapon used for a duration based on mastery level.
Focused Eye: Toggle ability that provides the swordsman with a hit chance increase buff based on the swordsman’s swordsmanship and tactics skill and mastery level that consumes mana while active.

Wrestling Mastery:
Knockout (passive):
While the wrestling mastery is active the wrestler receives a damage bonus to each hit based on mastery level.
Rampage: The wrestler attempts to continually hit their opponent where with each successful hit the wrestler receives a bonus to hit point regeneration, stamina regeneration, casting focus, and swing speed increase based on wrestling skill, evaluating intelligence or anatomy skill and mastery level. The effect is lost if the wrestler misses, the wrestler’s opponent parries the attack, or fails to cast a spell.
Fists of Fury: The wrestler attempts to land three hits in rapid succession to the next target that damages you within a 2 tile radius. If successful the third hit will deal direct damage based on the wrestler’s mastery level. The duration of this ability is based on wrestling skill and anatomy skill or evaluating intelligence skill.

Battle Defense:
Shield Bash:
When activated the shield user will execute a shield bash on successfully hitting or parrying their opponent causing physical damage and paralyzing their opponent, interrupts spells if players are not immune to paralyze, based on parry skill, best weapon skill, and mastery level. Damage is capped in pvp at 35.
Heightened Senses: Toggle ability that provides the Parrying Master with increased chance to parry based on parry skill, best weapon skill and mastery level that consumes mana while active.
Body Guard: The shield user chooses a protectee to absorb a percentage of damage done to the protectee based on parry skill, best weapon skill, and mastery level.
 
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SouthPaw

Lore Master
I have some experience with Battle Defense which comes preloaded on Osein Rams. Shield bash hits very hard. Not sure if pet used Body Guard or not, but I thought I read a post some time ago stating that people would have pets with Battle Defense stay near them as a defense against PK's and that it was very effective. Anyone know more?

I had Piercing on a Triceratops. Something is wrong with Tri's, in my experience they rarely use any of their abilities and almost always are topped of on mana. So not a lot of experience with that.

I had Slashing on a Sabre Tooth Tiger. I didn't keep him very long so not much experience with this one. The descriptions of the mastery abilities sound quite good, but not sure how well that translates to the game.

I have a Naja bonding tomorrow and I'm thinking of trying either Wrestling Mastery or Slashing on him.

The Bashing mastery Toughness doesn't look great, but I'm curious how much damage Stagger does since the description claims it's "massive damage."

I'd like to know what the damage bonus is with Knockout. Anyone know?
 
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Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Battle defense does use bodyguard, I've used a battle defense triceratops for felucca em events before.

Unfortunately don't have time to touch on other stuff right now, but I can say the melee magics tend to work a bit differently on pets then they do players.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
Battle defense does use bodyguard, I've used a battle defense triceratops for felucca em events before.

Unfortunately don't have time to touch on other stuff right now, but I can say the melee magics tend to work a bit differently on pets then they do players.
That makes sense since battle defense and wrestling mastery only get 2 special moves and the others all get 3, they make up for it by getting 3 mastery skills.

How can you tell when pet is using Body Guard? Is there a graphic for it or does it show up as a buff?
(Updating the post above to indicate that pets DO get Body Guard and Fists of Fury).

Now I'm thinking, for my Naja, to go with aura of nausea, poison breath, then battle defense. I'm guessing body guard was never used by my rams because I had already put chiv or necro on them before I got wrestling to 100 for the Parry skill to show up.
 
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Grace of Minoc

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
The icon on buff bar, when bodyguard procs, is "pet" receives 55% damage dealt to "owner".
Damage to "owner" is reduced by 50%. Must be within two tiles. Lasts 90 seconds.

This is with a pet at 120 wrestling and 120 parry *edit* and 110 tactics. Pet skills may or may not make a difference with those numbers. I had not thought of checking as I leveled the pet up.
 
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SouthPaw

Lore Master
The icon on buff bar, when bodyguard procs, is "pet" receives 55% damage dealt to "owner".
Damage to "owner" is reduced by 50%. Must be within two tiles. Lasts 90 seconds.

This is with a pet at 120 wrestling and 120 parry *edit* and 110 tactics. Pet skills may or may not make a difference with those numbers. I had not thought of checking as I leveled the pet up.
That's pretty nice for if you get raided by a PK at a spawn. Thanks for looking that up Grace!
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I've seen a Slashing Mastery Sabre Tooth Tiger use Focused Eye before, but never seen it use Onslaught. I repeatedly checked the opponent's Resists too to see if it was just proccing without a graphic/sound.

Wrest Mastery can do a lot of damage at times. The pet's damage with normal hits can vary wildly due to Knockout, sometimes it'll do a normal hit, other times it'll hit almost twice as hard. The pet will use Rampage (which the only benefit that provides is HPR and SR, the pet already hits at max speed with 150 Stam so the +SSI doesn't do much for it), and it'll also use Fists of Fury. When a Wrest Mastery pet lands all 3 hits of Fists of Fury, it can do a crapload of damage, even more than a EoO+AI does.
I have a Wrest Mastery Fire Beetle that i use for farming keys in Bedlam, as well as disarming Gregorio. With all the different types of named Undead down there in Bedlam, EoO can be a real liability due to the +100% Damage Taken, but a Wrest Mastery Fire Beetle can tear through most of the mobs down there with ease, and still remain tanky.

Stagger is extremely powerful. In terms of damage, it's basically a functioning Crushing Blow, and it also applies a -60% SSI debuff for 10 secs to the victim. Slowing down an opponent's attack speed that much, is a massive increase to your surviveability.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
I've seen a Slashing Mastery Sabre Tooth Tiger use Focused Eye before, but never seen it use Onslaught. I repeatedly checked the opponent's Resists too to see if it was just proccing without a graphic/sound.

Wrest Mastery can do a lot of damage at times. The pet's damage with normal hits can vary wildly due to Knockout, sometimes it'll do a normal hit, other times it'll hit almost twice as hard. The pet will use Rampage (which the only benefit that provides is HPR and SR, the pet already hits at max speed with 150 Stam so the +SSI doesn't do much for it), and it'll also use Fists of Fury. When a Wrest Mastery pet lands all 3 hits of Fists of Fury, it can do a crapload of damage, even more than a EoO+AI does.
I have a Wrest Mastery Fire Beetle that i use for farming keys in Bedlam, as well as disarming Gregorio. With all the different types of named Undead down there in Bedlam, EoO can be a real liability due to the +100% Damage Taken, but a Wrest Mastery Fire Beetle can tear through most of the mobs down there with ease, and still remain tanky.

Stagger is extremely powerful. In terms of damage, it's basically a functioning Crushing Blow, and it also applies a -60% SSI debuff for 10 secs to the victim. Slowing down an opponent's attack speed that much, is a massive increase to your surviveability.
Thanks for all the info! I know Bedlam has some very tough mobs there; pretty impressive that a Fire Beetle with Wrestling Mastery can handle it.

Anyone have much experience with piercing?
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
I tried out bashing on my raptor today. I wasn't impressed with it. Maybe it works better with higher skills though. Ended up releasing him because I realized any build that you can put on a raptor, you can put on a lion or sabre tooth instead AND get healing, so no point in taming raptors as far as I can see. Too bad they don't use their secret "call friends" move after tamed. When I released him he called his buddies to attack me again.

Trained my new naja with aura of nausea, venomous bite, and lastly wrestling mastery. He just got 90 wrestling skill, not sure what I think of it yet. I'm very impressed with venomous bite though, he uses it often and it covers a large area.

Tamed a new lion today, which has piercing. His skills are very low and so far piercing doesn't seem to be doing anything. I'll update after I have more experience with him.
 
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Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I tried out bashing on my raptor today. I wasn't impressed with it. Maybe it works better with higher skills though. Ended up releasing him because I realized any build that you can put on a raptor, you can put on a lion or sabre tooth instead AND get healing, so no point in taming raptors as far as I can see.
I actually use/d Raptors to test out melee magics and some other abilities. Because they have no innate abilities it makes them great for testing things.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I actually use/d Raptors to test out melee magics and some other abilities. Because they have no innate abilities it makes them great for testing things.
LOL this must mean he tested them and was not impressed.
@PlayerSkillFTW uses some of them. Maybe he can elaborate on a specific encounter they work with.
Get the pet to at least 100 skills to judge them. If they are like toons, they work better with higher skills. The pet will work better with GM skills.

I also was not impressed with them but test them more and you may find something you like. Many pet types can get them.

Battle defense is neat.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
This post is slightly OT, I have put Aura of Nausea on a few pets, and it doesn't seem to work against mobs. I know @Khaelor tested it a while back and the debuff icon showed it lasts 30 seconds, and I know those purple mobs in the Khul dungeon used it I could really feel it, but I see no change whatsoever on monsters my pet uses it against, doesn't matter if it's a boss or lizzarmen, I see no difference in swing rate or damage output by the monster that was hit with it.

I have this new naja with aura of nausea (again, it seems to do nothing and it's a mana hog), venomous bite (this ability is awesome IMO), and wrestling mastery. I got him to all GM skills and I'm not impressed with Wrestling Mastery at all. Watched how much damage he was doing against a few different mobs, then tried my ai/chiv pets against same mob there there's a drastic difference in damage output.

All this pet training on regular server (Pacific) is taking a lot of time, going to try out test center today to hopefully speed things along.
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I have this new naja with aura of nausea (again, it seems to do nothing and it's a mana hog), venomous bite (this ability is awesome IMO), and wrestling mastery. I got him to all GM skills and I'm not impressed with Wrestling Mastery at all. Watched how much damage he was doing against a few different mobs, then tried my ai/chiv pets against same mob there there's a drastic difference in damage output.
Wrestling mastery of course would do better at 120 wrestling, however... a long time ago I tried Wrestling Mastery on a few things it should have been really good on. The damage output wasn't even remotely close to a fully trained Chiv/AI pet of the same caliber/damage type. Not even with low resist mobs (20-25) where AI ends up being less effective. I know some people here like the spec, so I try not to a downer on people who choose it.

For the record, I use Chiv/AI fire steeds in bedlam, and I never have a problem there.
 

ultima2005

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I’ve tried several and the only one I like somewhat is battle defense. I'm not a big fan of any of the melee magics though -- I think they add too many abilities to the pet, and most of the abilities are not worthwhile.
 

Mordha

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
This post is slightly OT, I have put Aura of Nausea on a few pets, and it doesn't seem to work against mobs. I know @Khaelor tested it a while back and the debuff icon showed it lasts 30 seconds, and I know those purple mobs in the Khul dungeon used it I could really feel it, but I see no change whatsoever on monsters my pet uses it against, doesn't matter if it's a boss or lizzarmen, I see no difference in swing rate or damage output by the monster that was hit with it.

I have this new naja with aura of nausea (again, it seems to do nothing and it's a mana hog), venomous bite (this ability is awesome IMO), and wrestling mastery. I got him to all GM skills and I'm not impressed with Wrestling Mastery at all. Watched how much damage he was doing against a few different mobs, then tried my ai/chiv pets against same mob there there's a drastic difference in damage output.

All this pet training on regular server (Pacific) is taking a lot of time, going to try out test center today to hopefully speed things along.
I put wrestling mastery on a giant beetle and was not impressed with it either. For comparison, I brought in my poisoning/AI/RC giant beetle and this bug was so much better then the wrestling bug.

I still have the wrestling mastery bug but I just don’t use it much.
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I put wrestling mastery on a giant beetle and was not impressed with it either. For comparison, I brought in my poisoning/AI/RC giant beetle and this bug was so much better then the wrestling bug.

I still have the wrestling mastery bug but I just don’t use it much.
Wrestling mastery should shine on low resist targets. But it falls short.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
Seems like battle defense might be the only one worth taking. I tamed and leveled up a lion this morning on test. I added poison first, poison breath, venomous bite, then I put piercing back on. He does good damage because piercing comes with armor ignore, and he poisons a lot, but I never see or notice any of the piercing masteries being used. I think on the live server when my lion bonds I'll go poison, either poison breath or another aoe, venomous bite, battle defense. I think any pet that has healing and battle defense would be pretty good, tanky, and I know shield bash hits hard.

I have a Dragon Wolf that started as 3 slots and I only put poison and armor ignore on him. I've been wondering for months if it would have been better to put a melee mastery on him, but after testing them out I think I made the right choice. The melee magics all seem either broken or substantially weaker than other options.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
@SouthPaw This is a really good thread on the Topic of the melee magics. This is the reason I made the Fire Steed. I knew it would not get a good Chiv build so I was hoping one of these would be a good ability for the Equines since they cost less.

Your thread but would be good to stick to this topic. Thanks We are not picky on this forum. If you want to ask about a different specific topic, just make a new thread.

We would need to know how 120 wrestling affects these abilities. I would guess the devs substituted Wrestling for the other "Magics". I use stagger on my macer and it does do what it says.

I really hope that one of these abilities would make a good magic for the under pointed Equines.

The only One I have found to have value is Battle Defense and it is more for a fun thing to do. (have 2 GDs and 3 Dragons on your pet and it does not lose HP. But also does not kill any of them)
 
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SouthPaw

Lore Master
I had my naja with wrestling mastery on Pacific and changed it to Battle Defense. The damage output seemed to improve, but only very slightly. Shield Bash hits hard, maybe even on par with Armor Ignore, but unfortunately he seems to use it rarely.

I got him to use Bodyguard by telling him to guard me and then I had to attack something-seemed to be the only way to get him to use it. Lasts 1 minute. Has the potential to be a very good ability, especially if your tamer is a melee type-absorbs 50% of the damage! If my tamer was a melee type, I would definitely tame something like a Lion or Sabre Tooth, make sure to get healing skill on the pet, put Battle Defense on it, tell it to guard you-would make a great team!
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
You sure it has a 1 minute timer? When I used it it just stayed active while I gathered things to attack it and took pics. Had to stay pretty close.

That will ruin my idea of using it on a Vollum...
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
I'm going to do a recap here of what I've learned so far in testing:

-For most of the melee magics, either the pet isn't using the mastery skills at all, or very rarely uses them, or they're just plain terrible. At the time of this writing the only one that seems to be worth taking is Battle Defense, but to be clear it has significantly less damage output than virtually any pet trained with Armor Ignore and Chivalry, likely less than Magery or Mysticism too. I think Battle Defense has the potential to be very good on a pet with healing with a melee tamer. For the most part, if you choose a melee magic, choose with the special moves that come with it in mind, not the mastery skills.

-Venomous Bite is a very good ability, perhaps even better than Poison Breath. Pet uses it often and it's an area effect.

-Vicious Bite does delayed damage over time. On smaller/weaker mobs the mob will likely be dead before it even starts damaging them. Not worth taking in my opinion.

-Aura of Nausea doesn't seem to work in PvM. I noticed no slow down whatsoever in the mobs swing speed or damage output, nor does it appear to make the mob easier for my pet to hit. This seems true for both strong and weak mobs. Didn't matter if it was used on the crazed mage, unbound energy elementals, sphynxes, lizard men, or Shame level 1 mobs. I didn't notice any difference whatsoever, so for the time being the ability appears to be nothing more than a mana drain in PvM. It could be good in PvP however, should you get lucky enough for the pet to use it at the right time (good luck with that!).

-Essence of Disease: Area effect move. Does NOT poison mobs, but does poison damage over time (6-9 dmg per tick on lizard men, mostly 8 dmg). Not sure how many ticks it goes for, but seems to last a long time. Pet uses it often, I estimate the range to be about 6 tiles radius from the pet, so not as big as Goo. Although the damage is low, it works great at keeping agro on the pet. I like it!
 
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SouthPaw

Lore Master
You sure it has a 1 minute timer? When I used it it just stayed active while I gathered things to attack it and took pics. Had to stay pretty close.

That will ruin my idea of using it on a Vollum...
Definitely has 1 minute timer, and have to be within 2 tiles of pet. It can refresh pretty quickly though, so I wouldn't be too concerned about the time limit.
 
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Khyro

Sage
Stratics Veteran
OT POST
Anyone know if vicious bite is any good?

*EDIT* I just took vicious bite on a naja on test for around an hour, I didn't see it go off or didn't notice it. Seems like another broken or worthless move.
This is how Vicious Bite works the last time I tested it: Foundations: Pet Ability Breakdown | uo-cah.com

Basically extremely delayed damage that builds up over time until it peaks out (at 200s). Might be useful in some strange PvP build, but I can't see a practical use for it in PvM at all.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
This is how Vicious Bite works the last time I tested it: Foundations: Pet Ability Breakdown | uo-cah.com

Basically extremely delayed damage that builds up over time until it peaks out (at 200s). Might be useful in some strange PvP build, but I can't see a practical use for it in PvM at all.
Thank you for your comment!

I can't see how delayed damage is going to be a good thing in any situation. I want the mob or PK dead ASAP.
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
At the time of this writing the only one that seems to be worth taking is Battle Defense, but to be clear it has significantly less damage output than virtually any pet trained with Armor Ignore and Chivalry, likely less than Magery or Mysticism too. I think Battle Defense has the potential to be very good on a pet with healing with a melee tamer. For the most part, if you choose a melee magic, choose with the special moves that come with it in mind, not the mastery skills.
Battle Defense Vollem for non-tamers.
 

celticus

Crazed Zealot
UNLEASHED
But... wouldn't giving Battle Defense make them uncontrollable by non-tamers?
No. The non-tamer will need to have some taming, the level of which will depend on what else you added to the vollem, and what its slots have been upped to. There is a thread in here about Vollem training and taming skill requirements, and about how many points in taming you will likely need etc. May be as low as taming 20-25-30 etc, if you have the points available on the toon.
 

Khaelor

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
But... wouldn't giving Battle Defense make them uncontrollable by non-tamers?
Vollems are one of the few animals that start off with negative control requirements. You can add about a dozen training actions to a Vollem and still have it controlled by a Human Jack of All Trades tamer with 0 taming. The training has to be very deliberate if you add 2 points to physical resist and then decide to add 3 more, that would be two training actions, each one increasing the taming difficulty requirement for the Vollem.
 

celticus

Crazed Zealot
UNLEASHED
No. The non-tamer will need to have some taming, the level of which will depend on what else you added to the vollem, and what its slots have been upped to. There is a thread in here about Vollem training and taming skill requirements, and about how many points in taming you will likely need etc. May be as low as taming 20-25-30 etc, if you have the points available on the toon.
Also Vollems are very exp. and take x00,000 cleanup points! So do your testing on TC1 FIRST!
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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@SouthPaw
@Tabby Kapak

I found the tread where I was trying to get my Vollem build.
This was the best one I came up with. Goal was to get 20 taming so my human can use. K said they could go up to 30 and human still control. Would be using it on a Melee fighter.

Each thing you do increases the taming requirement so you set it as high as you want. All must be done in first round. Can not go to next round or req goes high. You have 1501 point to place. Dont push blue button again.

I put BD
Mana regen
hp regen
phy res
fire res
energy res
poison resist
Mana

20 requirement:



Just have to figure out how to have it guard you but not be attacked.
I kept the dex at 125 so it walks slower. It is not designed to fight. It just needs to stay alive and give the aura.
If two players were involved, I think they would have a good chance. One could heal it and invis it as needed.
My skills/reflexes are not up to getting it to work on my warrior. Im sure it would be dead fast.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
@SouthPaw
@Tabby Kapak

I found the tread where I was trying to get my Vollem build.
This was the best one I came up with. Goal was to get 20 taming so my human can use. K said they could go up to 30 and human still control. Would be using it on a Melee fighter.

Each thing you do increases the taming requirement so you set it as high as you want. All must be done in first round. Can not go to next round or req goes high. You have 1501 point to place. Dont push blue button again.

I put BD
Mana regen
hp regen
phy res
fire res
energy res
poison resist
Mana

20 requirement:



Just have to figure out how to have it guard you but not be attacked.
I kept the dex at 125 so it walks slower. It is not designed to fight. It just needs to stay alive and give the aura.
If two players were involved, I think they would have a good chance. One could heal it and invis it as needed.
My skills/reflexes are not up to getting it to work on my warrior. Im sure it would be dead fast.
Only way I got my pet to use Body Guard was to say "all guard me" and then I had to attack a mob. This would likely cause pet to attack, so maybe make a macro: say "all guard me", say "all follow me." That may work. Good chance pet will either attack or be attacked though.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
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Right you have to say guard. But if your toon was already attacking maybe it would just stand there. I have not tried stay. Also I have never been able to make any of my pets actually guard me and actually attack something after. I see everybody else using the command. My pets just mutter, pffft you are on your own loser.
 

Xris

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Right you have to say guard. But if your toon was already attacking maybe it would just stand there. I have not tried stay. Also I have never been able to make any of my pets actually guard me and actually attack something after. I see everybody else using the command. My pets just mutter, pffft you are on your own loser.
Ya my cu will attack one mob near me, then stand there like a dope. They need to have pets guard better.
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
When I say guard they will sit there until I take melee damage and then attack that mob. Try this

-say guard
-go into aggressive mode and attack a mob

Even if you don't hit the mob, like if you have a spell book in hands and just target the mob at a distance, the pet should attack the mob and use body guard.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
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The only real tests I did was to have it guard me and let a player attack me with melee and spells. The pet used Bodyguard and did not attack the player.

My original Idea was to sell these pets to PvPers. It reduces melee and spell damage by 50%. I have a patent on that so I want a cut if it works!
 

SouthPaw

Lore Master
The only real tests I did was to have it guard me and let a player attack me with melee and spells. The pet used Bodyguard and did not attack the player.

My original Idea was to sell these pets to PvPers. It reduces melee and spell damage by 50%. I have a patent on that so I want a cut if it works!
Ha ha ha! Patent pending already, LOL!

Ideally if your toon was melee you could tell the pet to attack and then stand next to the pet while attack also. I didn't know Body Guard works on spell damage also, I thought it was just melee, so that's pretty cool.
 

Fizzleton

Seasoned Veteran
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Stratics Legend
Do you really think this will work in PvP? My (although outdated) experience in PvP is that it is a rather dynamic thing, and my experience as a tamer is that pets are not really build to deal with dynamic encounters. Maybe it is a nice defensive surprise for a PK if you get raided, but real PvP - maybe I just don't have the fantasie.
 
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