Classic Shard #2

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

There it goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

ONE server, only classic UO ? You think thats impossible ?

You poor fool! Wait till you see those goddamn bats.

 

[Babble]

Part of the reason Tarmmel was a mirror (except for Sunsword) was that most peoples connection sucked and the download would have been too big.

A long time EA used the same map for Trammel and Felucca, nowadays they use two and can change things seperately.

If we had no housing there we could have a 'Cataclysm' and a new facet ...

 

[Connor_Graham]

If that is truely the case UO is doomed. I think what so many people that are opposed to a classic shard are afraid of is that it will become more popular eventually then the production shards. Not only that, but even if it's not more popular it will be more profitable because it won't require constant patches to provide new content. They are scared that it will stop new content, which if what you say is true will happen either way. Once it is no longer cost effective to provide new content it will stop being developed. When that happens in a item based game it's over. It might limp along until it isn't even worth keeping the game alive, but it will happen.

Wow. You are just.............clueless. You couldn't be more wrong than if you'd intentionally tried to be. Time to go back to the whiteboard for you I think.....

 

[Evlar]

If that is truely the case UO is doomed. I think what so many people that are opposed to a classic shard are afraid of is that it will become more popular eventually then the production shards. Not only that, but even if it's not more popular it will be more profitable because it won't require constant patches to provide new content. They are scared that it will stop new content, which if what you say is true will happen either way. Once it is no longer cost effective to provide new content it will stop being developed. When that happens in a item based game it's over. It might limp along until it isn't even worth keeping the game alive, but it will happen.

Wow. You are just.............clueless. You couldn't be more wrong than if you'd intentionally tried to be. Time to go back to the whiteboard for you I think.....

We all know your own feelings on PvP in the game, but are more than happy to engage in it on forums...

Well done, you're clearly a grade A...

The guy makes a feasible and valid point. Other games have fallen by the wayside for much the same reasons.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

The problem as I see it lies in extremes, I have not yet played an MMO that addressed the issue of player interaction in a middle ground sort of manner. Which is what we were shooting for in the first thread.

If you go to far in the open pvp direction you end up with darkfall and it's ridiculous notion of having no safe zones at all. The other end of that spectrum is the pvp switch which effectively eliminates villainy.

Because there are many different player types and it takes most of those types to make a community function, the balance between those groups must be worked at.

Players will get mad when they are butchered at will by a bunch of naked mage thirteen year olds who rez kill them over and over and over and kill their mounts dry loot them and leave them feeling like a **** victim.

And despite the fact that those in favor of pking sans restrictions always seem to say things like "how hard is it to do x instead of y" the point is not everyone thinks that clearly in the heat of the moment, being angry at the person they feel has violated them.

People like to feel that if someone attacks them there will be some justice served to the offender. The community in the old days did not do a good enough job because they could not, there were more people pking than there were anti pks to go around, also given the fact that most players weren't as well coordinated back then as they are now it made player justice all the harder.

The key word is people, yes it's a video game, but people are not always rational, just think back on a time you got overly angry over something most calm people consider trivial, you've already thought of two or three.

Also there are many more players in MMOs these days than there ever was back in UOs prime, this cannot be ignored. The players who came after trammel was in place never knew anything but trammel, these players would have no real incentive to embrace the old open world style of play because it seems inconvenient and when something goes mainstream the intangible things tend to become less important compared to matters of convenience.

I think however that the objectors to a classic shard are no threat, as EA will only proceed if the shard makes solid business sense. If they do the projections and it looks like it will add profit to the bottom line they will forge ahead in the face of protest just like they have done with every other change they have implemented over the years.

I consider myself a middle ground type of guy, I loved old school UO as much as any of my colleagues in the discussion. But I also embrace that it had issues that needed and failed to be addressed. And the only way that this shard doesn't fail is by balancing the community, if pks aren't somehow restricted beyond what failed the first time then the classic shard will also fail I'm not prophet but as a betting man I'd comfortably bet the house on that.

I don't want the so called "sheep" to feel miserable when they play the game, they need to be as happy as any other playstyle or there will be no community.

Likewise I don't want the "wolves" to feel like their playstyle is banished into the realm of impossibility, UO needs a real sense of hero vs villain, and the only way to make it real is to encourage actual players to engage each other, the crafters and merchants bring it all together by creating an amazing buzz in the town community and the dungeon runners keep the crafters busy so it all works out.

Apologies for the wall of text, it's just been a while since I posted in the thread and wanted to throw this out.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

If that is truely the case UO is doomed. I think what so many people that are opposed to a classic shard are afraid of is that it will become more popular eventually then the production shards. Not only that, but even if it's not more popular it will be more profitable because it won't require constant patches to provide new content. They are scared that it will stop new content, which if what you say is true will happen either way. Once it is no longer cost effective to provide new content it will stop being developed. When that happens in a item based game it's over. It might limp along until it isn't even worth keeping the game alive, but it will happen.

Wow. You are just.............clueless. You couldn't be more wrong than if you'd intentionally tried to be. Time to go back to the whiteboard for you I think.....

I think he hit the nail exactly on the head.

Meanwhile, I think you are being willfully ignorant of what is going on around you.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

People like to feel that if someone attacks them there will be some justice served to the offender. The community in the old days did not do a good enough job because they could not, there were more people pking than there were anti pks to go around, also given the fact that most players weren't as well coordinated back then as they are now it made player justice all the harder.

Exactly.

I think that is probably the #1 think I hated about UO:R. It's like everything those of us that fought the PKs for 3 years stood for was wiped away. We lost...but so did the PKs. However, the PKs got Fel...anti-PKs got the shaft.

I consider myself a middle ground type of guy, I loved old school UO as much as any of my colleagues in the discussion. But I also embrace that it had issues that needed and failed to be addressed. And the only way that this shard doesn't fail is by balancing the community, if pks aren't somehow restricted beyond what failed the first time then the classic shard will also fail I'm not prophet but as a betting man I'd comfortably bet the house on that.

I don't want the so called "sheep" to feel miserable when they play the game, they need to be as happy as any other playstyle or there will be no community.

Likewise I don't want the "wolves" to feel like their playstyle is banished into the realm of impossibility, UO needs a real sense of hero vs villain, and the only way to make it real is to encourage actual players to engage each other, the crafters and merchants bring it all together by creating an amazing buzz in the town community and the dungeon runners keep the crafters busy so it all works out.

I thought the exact same thing until recently. Unfortunately, it has become obvious to me that there will never be a truly balanced open-PvP environment in UO. The non-PvPers simply will not engage in PvP if they have a choice, and if that choice is removed, they will quit the game. PKs, real PKs from the old days, will pretty much only come back if there are victims. The victims want no part of it, so what an open-PvP shard will end up being is simply a PvP shard with Classic Rules.

I didn't want to believe that, but I have been doing some research on the topic, here and elsewhere, and I cannot logically come to any other conclusion.

The days of having integrated PvP and non-PvP, at least for Ultima Online, are gone and they will never return.

The best we can hope for with a Classic Shard is something similar to Siege. A shard where there is a committed community of players that value their shard above themselves. Personally, I would be proud to be associated with such a shard...even it was primarily a PvP shard.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Well well well...

You fought all this time to finally give in to the troll fatalist argument ?

This is a terrible day.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Well well well...

You fought all this time to finally give in to the troll fatalist argument ?

This is a terrible day.

No sir. If nothing, I thought you might know me better than this. I never give up. Ever.

I just recognize things for what they are.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Thats exactly what they tried to get you to see, and you fought brillantly so your point of view ; your HOPE would be respected.

And now, you say it the exact way they did.

You just exchanged community for a bag of commodity !

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Thats exactly what they tried to get you to see, and you fought brillantly so your point of view ; your HOPE would be respected.

And now, you say it the exact way they did.

You just exchanged community for a bag of commodity !

Never!

The community will be what WE make it. If people that don't want to PvP don't turn out, then so be it! This shard, a Classic Shard, should be what UO once was, and nothing less. It should be a realistic world, where a player can say 'damn the consequences, I am going to kill this SOB' and be able to DO IT. There should be none of this 'mystic force field' crap...none of this facet garbage, and if the gods damn that player into stat loss, or exile, or whatever, HE SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE THAT CHOICE!

Don't you get it Ahu? This IS what UO was supposed to be!!!

I know that recently you and I have had some problems, but don't let that cloud your vision.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Now that sounds more like you ! I tought you were a goner for a moment...

And no we did not have any problems, at least I don't. I'd still honor your rightful claim to the throne if it came to pass.

I am a companion, nothing more. If I'm here or not makes no difference ; the community disowned the companions many times over now. So of course I get it...

Some people fear god, others don't care ; maybe they should since others fear might let the shadowlords peak into their lives. Maybe god can be argued about, but the shadowlords are nothing "misty" or "unreal". They will hurt humankind if they get the chance ; something is terribly wrong.

 

[NorCal]

The problem as I see it lies in extremes, I have not yet played an MMO that addressed the issue of player interaction in a middle ground sort of manner. Which is what we were shooting for in the first thread.

If you go to far in the open pvp direction you end up with darkfall and it's ridiculous notion of having no safe zones at all. The other end of that spectrum is the pvp switch which effectively eliminates villainy.

It is impossible to have a middle ground sorry. It just pits the two sides against eachother with both claiming their style is the best. Look at WoW they have pvp and pve servers that seperate the playstyles. Trammell just divided UO. It wasn't necessary. They should have seperated the two incompatable playstyles. A classic shard would be open pvp with statloss for reds, which is more punishment then in WoW and nobody complains because they understand the difference and choose what type of realm they want to play.

Because there are many different player types and it takes most of those types to make a community function, the balance between those groups must be worked at.

Players will get mad when they are butchered at will by a bunch of naked mage thirteen year olds who rez kill them over and over and over and kill their mounts dry loot them and leave them feeling like a **** victim.

I don't think you'll get the 13 year olds playing UO sorry. They will play newer games. However you'll get the immature 20-30 year olds. It would need different player types though. Hopefully people would group more and prepare for the possiblity of non-con pvp. If you like to play solo like many so called sheep usually do then you're a much easier target and it discourages community and player cooperation. Solo play should be viable, but not the norm in a MMO although you don't want to encourage having to play in extremely large groups either IMO.

And despite the fact that those in favor of pking sans restrictions always seem to say things like "how hard is it to do x instead of y" the point is not everyone thinks that clearly in the heat of the moment, being angry at the person they feel has violated them.

People like to feel that if someone attacks them there will be some justice served to the offender. The community in the old days did not do a good enough job because they could not, there were more people pking than there were anti pks to go around, also given the fact that most players weren't as well coordinated back then as they are now it made player justice all the harder.

This was not my experience, but maybe mine differs because I played on Asuka. There was a large American population, but there was a rivalry with the Japanese players at the time. Even Japanese PKs would attack American PKs. If an American group of PKs was running from place to place killing people we had a gang of Japanese anti-PKs chasing us. No lie they went out of their way to try killing us. I think a classic shard would be more prepared and willing to deal out some justice then the first time around knowing what they are getting into. Maybe there is just a huge difference between how cultures game, but I don't remember that many so called sheep on Asuka. Players fought back and there were more then enough anti-PKs to go around. This is how I see a classic shard working because there won't be as many sheep.

The key word is people, yes it's a video game, but people are not always rational, just think back on a time you got overly angry over something most calm people consider trivial, you've already thought of two or three.

Also there are many more players in MMOs these days than there ever was back in UOs prime, this cannot be ignored. The players who came after trammel was in place never knew anything but trammel, these players would have no real incentive to embrace the old open world style of play because it seems inconvenient and when something goes mainstream the intangible things tend to become less important compared to matters of convenience.

I don't think a classic shard needs them. In fact I doubt even a classic shard will allow UO to compete with the new games or even production shards. It would be a sandbox niche server that would attract people that don't like what UO and MMOs in general have become. A tougher more mature audience.

I don't want the so called "sheep" to feel miserable when they play the game, they need to be as happy as any other playstyle or there will be no community.

Likewise I don't want the "wolves" to feel like their playstyle is banished into the realm of impossibility, UO needs a real sense of hero vs villain, and the only way to make it real is to encourage actual players to engage each other, the crafters and merchants bring it all together by creating an amazing buzz in the town community and the dungeon runners keep the crafters busy so it all works out.

Honestly I feel a classic shard would need all styles of play. It doesn't need sheep though. I wouldn't want them at all. It would just lead to boredom and complaints. Sheep are the reason we got Tram and then eventually AoS because sheep will get bored with current content and demand more or complain about non-con pvp. That leads to a item based lvl grind with strictly consentual pvp just like you have now. That trivalizes crafting. It encourages taking the MM and RPG out of MMORPG by encouraging solo play and only wanting the uber gear or it encourages the need for being in large raid guilds to get the uber gear if it can't be soloed like champ spawns. If I want to play that I can just log onto my WoW account. A classic shard would need pve, crafting, player run mall owners and I'd love to see some role playing too. However what people call sheep we don't need and if that drives away the wolves we don't need them either. I want a sandbox a niche doesn't need to appeal to the mainstream.

Great post I enjoyed reading it, but I just disagree about needing to appeal to everyone, especially the need for sheep. It would need all types all playstlyes, but not squimish players. There are tons of games out there for that type and even Prodo UO shards. I believe a classic shard would appeal to a group of people that want a little more challenge in their gaming with tougher skin then you think.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Thats well formulated ! Exept the part about WOW... everytime you say WOW in a sentence it now makes it proverbial in a sense.

People cannot loose their items, wow ! WOW is more than UO ever was because of it's sheer size and customer SUPPORT ; as in people encourage them to do what they do best. People train their communication and other things which is great too !

The story with UO however is different, it's the other way around perspective you need to employ ; and when it reaches full potential, it will unfold hopefully with magic because of the people of good heart and community that will have built the momentum.

People in the future WILL look back at the events of old and realise they need to learn from this virtual history too (see what wow makes me do) of what transpired in the days where an account sold separately could be worth over 10000 real USD dollars. And also the first time in the history of computing that the actual selling of virtual DUPED items went unchecked and almost encouraged by either the complete obscolescence from EA or just plain taking over for the sanity of humankind ; if you permit me the expression.

Many of those "business(wo)men" have used this money to setup networks with chinese workers in WOW who have profitted them millions in real money ; some of them have suddenly stopped, realising they did mistakes and saying all innocently "we are stopping all activity that are against the TOS of every game, major changes have happened recently. I am not making a case out of this, but they were allowed full reign over MY dream and were evil people proffiting from a flaw in the system, big time ! Did the people cheer them ? My dream was also broken by those events, while I was crying, those people that took it from me made a huge party, for adults only. Look who has the last laugh now ?

Thats because you cannot decompose the full meaning of anything extra-material to remain sane in a society that requires you to be all you can be (good part) but also dream what you shouldn't be (be it good or bad)...

UO means something, it is a whole in itself ; it's also complete according to ultima lore. You have heard this often Avatar, in movies and fictions, that this is all an illusion (matrixes) but ; you alienate yourself, why ?

I ask some people to make sense sometimes because for anyone to be here and writting for or against whatever, you have to be a nerd ; some are super nerds here...

It all goes in circles, point is ; thanks for adding clarity to the illusion that is meta-sandboxcubing. Life goes on, I think I will live fully when all that is acknowledged and customer service followup is made. I am "entitled" to UO customer service (pun intended) ; I have been UO EA customer service and did never ask for a copper piece !

Sweet dreams !

 

[NorCal]

Wow. You are just.............clueless. You couldn't be more wrong than if you'd intentionally tried to be. Time to go back to the whiteboard for you I think.....

OK fair enough care to explain why. I'm right and you're wrong doesn't give me any idea why I'm so off base. You didn't say anything in your post.

 

[NorCal]

Ahuaeyjnkxs I don't think the loss of items means much if anything at all after you have an established account. Regs, Gm gear, pots, bandages are a drop in the bucket after you have an established account. What else are you going to do with the gold? I was never really into rares. On your first roll yes or maybe getting ganked when your gathering resources. There are ways around the latter like going to out of the way places instead of just mining at Minoc. In a skill based game like classic UO people usually use the same gear and if they want to use a vanq wep it's usually in a gank squad, but they will eventually die and lose that wep.

Losing gear in a item based game is unacceptable, but it never really bothered me in UO. At least not after I had the means to replace it. The only time I ever got truely pissed was because I was in statloss and got disconnected from my 56k and died to mobs. My mouse was smashed to pieces.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Haha, honesty goes a long way !

Thats the part they didn't tell you about ; there was an intricate story that was to be created of all this, leaving room for creativity. (1999 FoA storyline)

Because of the "gold" rush it was well indeed rushed !

The first part of it (it was official) was to destroy all houses in game (armageddon) because the hacking had gone out of hand. The program that allowed me to somehow cast armageddon with the help of who knows probably not human who ; it was ready to do just that and in beta phase at test center. Then there was a whole system that I can sadly not talk about in details that added this "dimention" to the game where guilds would rule territories and get some kind of guards and other such things. Awesome people even tought about it spontaneously in this thread, this goes far to show the closeness of heart and affinity some people have for this wonder of the world.

Well in my honest opinion it wasn't lazyness that prevented the creators of this game to realise their dreams, it was fear. They fled, and forgot, left me all alone in the dark which eventually became my home. It was all too epic, especially the part where the princess swallows the black gem and throws herself into the sun which vaporised the gem into gazzilions of microscopic shardlets that pierced the holographic matter and made it static with the ideal of humankind and community at the helm.

They fled, but it was too late, they were stucked here, unable to retire back to their prized computer generated bland food and electric kinkyness. Ignorance is a curse that lurks us all... when a consensus forms community can benefit greatly from each other.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

It is impossible to have a middle ground sorry. It just pits the two sides against eachother with both claiming their style is the best. Look at WoW they have pvp and pve servers that seperate the playstyles. Trammell just divided UO. It wasn't necessary. They should have seperated the two incompatable playstyles. A classic shard would be open pvp with statloss for reds, which is more punishment then in WoW and nobody complains because they understand the difference and choose what type of realm they want to play.

I disagree that it is impossible, of course I agree trammel wasn't necessary it was merely a knee jerk response to what the devs at the time thought would be a mass exodus out of the game.

In terms of practicality you are probably right however.

I don't think you'll get the 13 year olds playing UO sorry. They will play newer games. However you'll get the immature 20-30 year olds. It would need different player types though. Hopefully people would group more and prepare for the possiblity of non-con pvp. If you like to play solo like many so called sheep usually do then you're a much easier target and it discourages community and player cooperation. Solo play should be viable, but not the norm in a MMO although you don't want to encourage having to play in extremely large groups either IMO.

I was merely generalizing, and the 20 year olds are most likely the 13 year olds ten years later. And the meat of my post was pointing out that any shard needs different types of players otherwise it quickly stagnates and becomes boring.

Organization is much easier now due to the various communication tools especially voice chat.

This was not my experience, but maybe mine differs because I played on Asuka. There was a large American population, but there was a rivalry with the Japanese players at the time. Even Japanese PKs would attack American PKs. If an American group of PKs was running from place to place killing people we had a gang of Japanese anti-PKs chasing us. No lie they went out of their way to try killing us. I think a classic shard would be more prepared and willing to deal out some justice then the first time around knowing what they are getting into. Maybe there is just a huge difference between how cultures game, but I don't remember that many so called sheep on Asuka. Players fought back and there were more then enough anti-PKs to go around. This is how I see a classic shard working because there won't be as many sheep.

It was certainly different on Atlantic and I'm fairly certain Morgana can back me on this one since she was around as well. I don't doubt your experience however, as a culture war of sorts has a very unifying effect on both sides and gives a much greater sense of focus, when it's us vs them we tend to forget our own petty squabbles against each other long enough to get rid of the larger threat.

I don't think a classic shard needs them. In fact I doubt even a classic shard will allow UO to compete with the new games or even production shards. It would be a sandbox niche server that would attract people that don't like what UO and MMOs in general have become. A tougher more mature audience.

To be more clear, since the term sheep means different things to different people in the MMO world. I was refering to anyone not interested in pvp, as that is the way I have seen the term thrown around on forums.

So in that context we do need them, and UO is of course nothing more than a niche MMO and the expectations where new customers are concerned should be kept to a minimum.

Honestly I feel a classic shard would need all styles of play. It doesn't need sheep though. I wouldn't want them at all. It would just lead to boredom and complaints. Sheep are the reason we got Tram and then eventually AoS because sheep will get bored with current content and demand more or complain about non-con pvp. That leads to a item based lvl grind with strictly consentual pvp just like you have now. That trivalizes crafting. It encourages taking the MM and RPG out of MMORPG by encouraging solo play and only wanting the uber gear or it encourages the need for being in large raid guilds to get the uber gear if it can't be soloed like champ spawns. If I want to play that I can just log onto my WoW account. A classic shard would need pve, crafting, player run mall owners and I'd love to see some role playing too. However what people call sheep we don't need and if that drives away the wolves we don't need them either. I want a sandbox a niche doesn't need to appeal to the mainstream.

You and I agree on the crux of the issue, I believe there was just a misunderstanding of the terminology. The devs are the reason we got tram and then aos, the whiners were just the fuel but the trammel was largely the product of lazy developers who reacted poorly to a situation that was much smaller than it was blown up to be.

When checking the numbers a while back I realized that UO was doing well pre trammel, and that I had always bought into the idea that it was losing subscribers simply because I couldn't be bothered to check the numbers for myself.

UO hurt itself the most by trying to be a worse version of superior games that were big in the market at the time.

I also agree that crafting was majorly trivialized, as was thieving, I think we all want a sandbox but what you are asking for is a bit idealistic. It's true there are older players in the game, a much larger number of them than ever before.

However there are a fair amount of players regardless of age, who only play to grief, also as I mentioned in a different thread in todays MMO environment everything is about convenience, you noted yourself in the WoW example how people can filter their servers by play style and the in game world caters to their every whim.

So where convenience is prized so heavily, the intangible parts of the game like community give way to the point where it is barely existent beyond the bank and auction house.

There are so many people in MMOs now who due to their constant demands to be on par with people who play more than they do, who have turned these worlds into Massively Single Player Online Games.

These types generally identify as the "family man or woman" who due to their super busy life (which nobody forced onto them to begin with) can't play as often as jonny hardcore but don't dare tell them they cannot be on the same competitive level despite that.

In any event I went off on a bit of a tangent towards the end there, but the gist of what I am saying is that you and I don't really disagree, and looking back on it I could have said all of that at the start and saved a lot of effort.

 

[NorCal]

However there are a fair amount of players regardless of age, who only play to grief, also as I mentioned in a different thread in todays MMO environment everything is about convenience, you noted yourself in the WoW example how people can filter their servers by play style and the in game world caters to their every whim.

So where convenience is prized so heavily, the intangible parts of the game like community give way to the point where it is barely existent beyond the bank and auction house.

There are so many people in MMOs now who due to their constant demands to be on par with people who play more than they do, who have turned these worlds into Massively Single Player Online Games.

This is of major importance IMO. It's what all MMOs have evolved into. The opposite of what classic UO was. Most importantly the part about "Massively Single Player Online Games" or the other end which is needing a huge guild that plays at the same time. It destroys community when you can solo anything or you need a huge guild to get uber items. You can't just play with friends or you don't need them. Sadly no matter what game you play there will always be jerk that their only purpose is to grief others for their own enjoyment.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Wow. You are just.............clueless. You couldn't be more wrong than if you'd intentionally tried to be. Time to go back to the whiteboard for you I think.....

OK fair enough care to explain why. I'm right and you're wrong doesn't give me any idea why I'm so off base. You didn't say anything in your post.

I would have thought it would have been obvious, but it was this statement in particular-

I think what so many people that are opposed to a classic shard are afraid of is that it will become more popular eventually then the production shards.

Not one of us that is against a classic shard is "afraid" of it becoming more popular than current production shards. Not a one. I'm sure most of us never even had that thought cross our minds. What most of us are most concerned about is the further watering down of Dev time for the largest part of the playerbase, and all for a shard that "might" have a fraction of the population of a busier shard.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Not one of us that is against a classic shard is "afraid" of it becoming more popular than current production shards. Not a one. I'm sure most of us never even had that thought cross our minds. What most of us are most concerned about is the further watering down of Dev time for the largest part of the playerbase, and all for a shard that "might" have a fraction of the population of a busier shard.

Actually, there have been several anti-Classic Shard posters that have cited the reason of "emptying out their home shards" as their reason for being against the idea.

Certainly, that is not the case with everyone. In fact, I wonder sometimes if certain players wouldn't actually prefer to play the game solo if they could.

 

[northwoodschopper]

These types generally identify as the "family man or woman" who due to their super busy life (which nobody forced onto them to begin with) can't play as often as jonny hardcore but don't dare tell them they cannot be on the same competitive level despite that.

I remember when online games billed by the hour. Nobody really complained when 'jonny hardcore' was well ahead of the casual player, mainly because they paid (a lot) more for the privilege. (Some players I remember paided $30-$50 a month per account) Once online games started the whole monthly flat rate is when the casual players started complaining about "fairness". I guess in a way you can say they have somewhat of a point, since the flat rate bleeds casual players more than the hardcore players. Not that there's really a way to balance that to begin with anyways, though I do remember suggestions that accelerated skill gains based on how long an account was off-line (had to have been over 10 years ago), but the "jonny hardcores" vehemetly opposed it.

Anyways, how would skill gains be on a classic shard? I would think combat-related skills should have very accelerated gains so players could be more competitive, while crafting, prospecting, and other miscellaneous skills gain slow. no sense in really slowing down pvp-readiness among a bunch of pvp-vets. Unless strategic pking to deny gains will be a part of guild/faction warfare.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

You have to be careful with allowing one playstyle to gain so much faster than others. Crafting should be a big part of a Classic Era shard, and if you make those skills gain too slowly, everyone will rely on loot rather than crafted items.

I'd actually like to see all of the skills gain at a slower pace than in the past, just to hold the interest of players a little longer...but I can understand why people would be against that. Actually, that was one of several things I actually did like about the original Siege concept. If I were designing a Classic Shard, I would make things take longer, make things more expensive, and make selling to NPCs a lot less lucrative, but not impossible. For example, I would make a horse cost 2000-3000 gold if purchased from NPCs. This would encourage players to buy from tamers. I would make boats costs closer to 100,000 gold, and houses would start at 500,000. Castles would be several million (5-6 million perhaps).

Again, I can understand why people would not like those ideas because it makes it harder for them to get what they want, but I think those things would mean more to the players once they owned them.

 

[Ray_]

This may sound a bit like a wild conspiracy theory, but hear me out anyway.

Developers and producers, and those that sign their paychecks, LOVE item based level grind games. Why? They are easy to create first of all. Everyone starts at the bottom, and works their way up slowly. There is little need for new content for a long time. However, when the time comes for new content, they never give it away...they sell it to you. They hold off on new content, slowly nerf existing templates/classes, and wait until just before the playerbase gets bored and quits, then they announce some meaningless expansion. This gets the playerbase all excited again. So excited that they are willing to go out and pay $29.99 or more for the expansion. Keep in mind, this is a game they PAY to play. This is nothing new. It's been going on since at least the early to mid 90s.

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's the standard approach to developing MMOs.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Anyways, how would skill gains be on a classic shard? I would think combat-related skills should have very accelerated gains so players could be more competitive, while crafting, prospecting, and other miscellaneous skills gain slow. no sense in really slowing down pvp-readiness among a bunch of pvp-vets. Unless strategic pking to deny gains will be a part of guild/faction warfare.

I think the skill gain would have to be the same as it was in the day, otherwise you basically make any form of stat/skill loss for a PK trivial, they'd be back to driving off the people who will be the foundation of a classic shard. Namely those who don't care for PvP but don't care for the item based game UO has become since Age of Sucks either.

I know a Classic Shard will be a "PvP" shard per se, but you still need to understand that there are more people who do not care for non-con PvP than there are PvPers. Some of them will play the classic shard and come to love PvP, others won't. Either way, like it or not, they will probably be the majority on a classic shard.

Fast combat skill gains would be a double edged sword that would end up driving people away because they would not see the PK who killed them as being "punished".

That gives me an idea, kind of like the Jail system Morganna talked about in the previous thread. Maybe have some form of pillory where once a murderer is killed he is stuck in a pillory at WBB for the length of time it would take for his murder counts to decay to 4 counts. No stat loss ever. No way to avoid the pillory. I don't think that the PK should be forced to be online while this was happening, but I think some of the people who scream for more harsh penalties for PK's would be mollified by this since they could see the "villain" being punished. Maybe have a special barrel nearby that when used would emote a throwing a rotten tomato or something.

Yeah I know, it would be an easier punishment than ones I've proposed before as the PK wouldn't even have to be logged in, but I think it would be the most effective since the victims witness the punishment and the PK can be embarrassed by having to look at his character as he plays his other account.

Could be a cool way to advertise a shop too...pay a murderer to shout out advertisements for you while he's pilloried. "I'm a bad mofo killing machine, and I buy all my regs at Psycho Joes! That is when I don't kill him and pry them from his cold dead hands!"

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's the standard approach to developing MMOs.

I guess I was rambling in that post (as usual) but I meant that my statement that the addition of Trammel was a part of the plan to get people onto the time based model would sound like a conspiracy theory.

 

[northwoodschopper]

You have to be careful with allowing one playstyle to gain so much faster than others. Crafting should be a big part of a Classic Era shard, and if you make those skills gain too slowly, everyone will rely on loot rather than crafted items.

I'd actually like to see all of the skills gain at a slower pace than in the past, just to hold the interest of players a little longer...but I can understand why people would be against that. Actually, that was one of several things I actually did like about the original Siege concept. If I were designing a Classic Shard, I would make things take longer, make things more expensive, and make selling to NPCs a lot less lucrative, but not impossible. For example, I would make a horse cost 2000-3000 gold if purchased from NPCs. This would encourage players to buy from tamers. I would make boats costs closer to 100,000 gold, and houses would start at 500,000. Castles would be several million (5-6 million perhaps).

Again, I can understand why people would not like those ideas because it makes it harder for them to get what they want, but I think those things would mean more to the players once they owned them.

I don't think there would be that much worry from loot replacing crafted goods. Magic items were fairly rare (well, extremely rare in comparison to today), and the high-end magic items would only be found on top tier monsters and chests. Since this will be non-con pvp, farming could be challenged at any moment.

Crafted items will always outclass loot on a classic shard, since you just can't beat the quality to price ratio, and lets face it, the majority of magic item properties weren't worth much even at their highest intensity. Crafted items are also easy to replace, relative to magic goods. Exceptional items don't require GM skill, so even a novice blacksmith could offer decent items during building. People really only went with GM smiths because of item marking, an exceptional item was an exceptional item regardless of skill.

i suppose combat skills don't need accerated gains since most likely, the bonewall and guild sparring will be the gaining choice.

 

[northwoodschopper]

Also, how will a classic shard deal with noto-pking? especially with fields and summons?

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Also, how will a classic shard deal with noto-pking? especially with fields and summons?

That is a good question. Personally, I think that there is no way to actually deal with it. You can either have it the old way, where if you threw an FF or an EV, and someone ran through it/it attacked someone...you got flagged, or you can make it so that fields and EV/BS have no effect on players. Those are about the only solutions I can come up with.

 

[NorCal]

I would have thought it would have been obvious, but it was this statement in particular-

Not one of us that is against a classic shard is "afraid" of it becoming more popular than current production shards. Not a one. I'm sure most of us never even had that thought cross our minds. What most of us are most concerned about is the further watering down of Dev time for the largest part of the playerbase, and all for a shard that "might" have a fraction of the population of a busier shard.

Did you just stop reading after the part you quoted? I gave my reason why they are afriad of it.

They are scared that it will stop new content

Which you have confirmed in this post by bringing up dev time for your prefered playstyle. You're right it is obvious that's what people that have no interest in playing a classic shard, but are in opposition to it's creation are really afraid of losing dev attention.

 

[Evlar]

I believe that no skills should be intentionally set to be fast-track-gainable. This would instantly create balancing issues.

I do understand player desire to want to be competitive as quickly as they can, but not to the detriment of game mechanics which might steer players intentionally/unintentionally down an "easy" path.

As far as items and templates go, of course there have often been favourites throughout the years. In any game with such variety on offer, someone will always "discover" a flaw in the system which works better than something else. That's not to say that the rock-paper-scissors concept with different templates is a bad thing, with combat orientated templates. All should have their strength and weakness, because if all are the same "strength" as one another, it makes competition stale.

Some of the best UO PvP'ers I've observed over the years, have earned their reputations by taking on and beating templates their own are supposed to be "weaker" against. All weapon skills should have their own merits though, so as to encourage people in equal measure to want to try them.

Within the classic eras of UO, which I remain adamant is anything pre-AoS, although there were favoured templates, I still believe things were much more balanced overall. Simplicity was also important.

Although I can see and understand why Imbuing has been added to the game, making fully customiseable equipment in everyone's grasp, in an effort to self-balance with respect to items, it was the final nail in the coffin of the game for me.

The reason for this was simply that it's all anyone would talk about. This had been happening for a while since AoS, because reason for the "chase" became about the items, rather than the chase or challenge of fighting whichever foes dropped them. Imbuing has further focused talk in game around items, because now it's sometimes like watching people formulate mathematical hypothesis to work their suits out. Some clearly enjoy that, but personally, I don't.

I much preferred the simplicity and ease of access of creating or using simple themed items. Create a suit of matching armour, some weapons, then head off to PvP or PvM. Players looked the part more then, rather than a neon cyborg of mixed and mismatched items. Call me traditional, but in a fantasy medieval environment, it helps if players and creatures actually look the part.

That's one of the reasons why LBR didn't work for me. It introduced a look that was completely out of keeping with the game environment. In it's own game and it's own environment, the "steampunk" look works well and I've enjoyed games that feature it. Add it to somewhere it looks out of sorts and it doesn't work for me.

This leads me to one of the other reasons I preferred classic era UO. It was what it was. It did exactly what it said on the tin. My interest has declined further and further with each expansion, because each development team have gone off on tangents from the original concept. This has unfortunately lead to a game that, in my opinion, doesn't look like it knows either what it is, or what it wants to be.

Yes, I like progress, but when it becomes so far removed from the feel of the core concept, then it becomes nothing more than a jumbled mess. In this respect, I do actually have every sympathy for the current development team. Each team will obviously have their own ideas about things, whilst they're also expected to unravel a tangled knot of issues left by their predecessors.

Either way, let's hope that if that missing shard is found in Lord British's secret cupboard amongst the dust and the forgotten relics, that it retains all the things we miss about the era we loved the most.

 

[Lanth]

Hello guys this is my first post on here sorry to be the barrier of more bad news but i am for the pre pub 16 or older shard.

I played uo since beta, i quit right after aos came out. Yes i was a pk and my goal in the game was to be number one on the bounty board (got to number 2). But anyways i loved uo it was hands down the best game ever made till they took away the option to kill people and loot them. I enjoyed the chase and the being chased but its gone and every now and them my friends and i talk about the old times on great lakes. We would all love to see a old school server open back up so we can egt real pvp again.

Right now we are basically forced to play a free ultima server which has nothing but hackers and cheats. And there is nothing worse than being killed by someone who is a admin with juiced stats. Atm i think there are about 10k people playing few shards give or take thats just my guess. And from the looks of it uo is losing players left and right. I would put anything on it if they make this server they would get tons of people back. I know about 10 people personally that would play =D.

So once again i am for it, and would love to see it soon!!!! wow and free uo servers are junk!!! give us a server pleaseeeeeeeee hell id even pay 20 a month for it =D
Also no trammel if its a old style server it takes the whole fun out of pking. You cant venture into a dungeon and not get killed thats just not cool.

 

[Renyard Foxenwyle]

Either way, let's hope that if that missing shard is found in Lord British's secret cupboard amongst the dust and the forgotten relics, that it retains all the things we miss about the era we loved the most.

Hopefully the devs will have room on the UPS to plug the shard in

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Hello guys this is my first post on here sorry to be the barrier of more bad news but i am for the pre pub 16 or older shard.

Welcome to the thread...and to the cause!

And that's not bad news...most of us here are for a pre-Pub16 shard, and most of us are for a pre-UO:R shard (when Trammel came in).

 

[Lanth]

Thanks for the welcome, i would have to say ive gone over some of the info people have posted and most of it looks great. I am all for a no trammel based shard with the old 2d graphics.

Do you guys remember when you couldnt buy horses! Those were some of the best times i had online i think we were all about 15 or 16 when we started playing back in late 96. I have so many great memories from uo. I mean my friends and i are all about 28 now and when we all get together we still talk about the glory days of uo and our best pvp fights!

I would have to say the best time we had was when we all ordered cable modems. We poped out to brit east woods and just had a rampage on everyone we seen, because they were all still on dialup! Man oh man i would just die to have the option to reactivate my wow account and get started today!

Also i know most of the people who play free servers with the old rule sets will switch back to real uo. I got any amount of money those 1-2k players would be there in a instant! Well i really hope to hear some good news sometime soon. Once again thanks for the welcome.

 

[Ray_]

Also, how will a classic shard deal with noto-pking? especially with fields and summons?

same way it was dealt with back then?

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Hey Lanth... you are not allowed to post free shard names on here, you should edit that post

That was a nice TRADITIONAL wall of text Evlar, I'm starting to like you !

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[tomstrife]

First, I'd like to preface by saying that Ultima Online was the one game that has completely changed my view about gaming.

The game is my favorite game of all time. I've played Everquest in the top raiding PVP guild after, and ran my own guild in WoW for years. I was a part of the Sleeper kill, my team and I were in the top of the ladder for WoW PvP and we had so many server first kills in PvE... but nothing has ever come close to the original Ultima Online.

I started playing the game in middle school when it first came out. My mom wouldn't let me use her credit card to pay for the monthly fee, so I got my older brother who was in college to pay for it. We ended up playing the same character and met lots of awesome people. He eventually quit, but I eventually lured my best friends into the game.

The game had so much freedom, it was so new, it was amazing. I lured my friends by showing them how the game worked. I made a new character, bought an axe and went to chop wood. We went to the Britain graveyard, met other people, robbed someone at the bank, killed a cougar! They were all hooked by these simple deeds.

To bring back a part of history like this would be impossible. I stopped playing a few months after Trammel, the game was never the same again. Nor could it ever be the same.

I've tried to play some of the other servers, like the original In Por Yelm server by WTFman and some of the others like UODemise or whatever. Some of these servers tried to remain true to the original, some were modified, but they weren't close.

The reason it wont work?

Everyone knows how to 'play'. It is no longer brand new. Everyone knew how to maximize by macroing. People no longer wanted to explore the world that they've explored hundreds of times. They just wanted to get to the ends.

PK's outnumbered their prey. The servers were geared towards mage-tank hybrids, and people used cheats to time ebolts. Too many mods to keep the game pure (think UOE in the past, but everyone using it). Think how powerful last target was when those people had those mods.

Archery was no longer the most overpowered skill. Lesser skilled "blue" players could no longer easily defend themselves. No one wanted to be "blue". There were so many people abusing the blue/murder system by having "blue" healers which made it impossible for the good guys. Even when I attempted to make an all "blue" anti pk guild, it was hard to fight against pks who had blue healers. Why? Because we didn't want murder counts, and the system benefited them.

Everyone wants to be a griefer, no one wants to role play the honorable person anymore. People would rather prefer to steal a car in Grand Theft Auto than be the heroic warrior rescuing a princess. Or at least the people that will role play the heroic warrior really suck at pvp. Then on top of it, they are now outnumbered because everyone wants to be that killer now.

Because of these reasons, there are not enough of the "casual" players. Think ecology - an ecosystem consisting of carnivores, herbivores and plants.

Pks are the carnivores
Casual "blues" are the herbivores
and the plants are the game content.

If there are too many carnivores, all the herbivores get eaten off. Carnivores no longer have anything to eat, they die off as well. (This is what will eventually happen in a classic server).

If there are no carnivores (most mmo's), the herbivores overeat the plants, go past the carrying capacity and then they die off because there aren't any plants left/too few. (This is what happens when there is too much pressure to stop pk'ing - or not enough hard content)

There needs to be a balance - the reason I kept playing the original UO was because there was new content and freedom. There was a good ratio of blues to pks - at least it wasn't as bad as some of the free servers where pks outnumbered blues. Once trammel was added, I was no longer interested and left to play in the PvP RZ Everquest server.

The classic content and starting anew? Sure it might be fun for a few months, but once people make enough to buy their castles/towers (I think it takes maybe a month or two if you know what to do - most people do know these days), it gets old without new content.

For these reasons, I don't ever see a classic shard ever lasting and being what we all remembered. But the game concept will always hold a place in my heart /nostalgia off. Sorry for the long post.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

It's useless to be sorry. Thanks for the input.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

It's useless to be sorry.

Not if the purpose of remorse is to start anew.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Hey hey wait a min there... I was trying to be nice.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

The new factor is an issue it must be remembered that there wasn't as much information about games back then as there is now. It practically eliminates the need to explore or learn about things on your own, remember that having to learn things is now considered an "inconvenience" or "inefficient" basically what a lot of people enjoy in their games now is having their hand held through every part of the game and we have to make sure that nobody is allowed to lose anything.

I saw this firsthand in WoW, with the addons people use to show them exactly where to go to complete every quest and where everything is located on the map including resources. Of course who am I to say that over 9000 people are wrong?

The truth is we oldschool gamers are an obsolete model, we are barely even niche we are invisible, undetectable by the devlopers eye. And that is laregely because gaming has become accepted as more than a part of "nerd culture" it's mainstream, even celebrities and other "important people" game and make no bones about it.

The more I think about it the less likely I think it is that this shard ever happens. I don't like to think negatively but I'm just having a hard time picturing the devs making their case to the bean counters.

I can picture Cal pleading the case but I cannot picture it gaining the approval it needs to become a reality. Of course at this point I would be happy to know just one way or another if it is going to happen, not details or release dates just a yes this is happening or a no sorry it isn't happening, then there would be no further need for this discussion to continue.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I don't think about a Classic Shard in terms of "discovering new things" or "getting back that new feeling". If I wanted a a "new feeling", I'd play a new game.

The fact is, many of us continue to pay...and sometimes play...Ultima Online because it is still Ultima Online, and we love it. The problems is, Ultima Online has changed so much that some of us have gotten to the point where we barely recognize it, and parts we do recognize are useless. Go to any of the old towns...check out Nu'Jelm or Cove. There's rarely anyone there. Go into the old dungeons, like Despise or Covetous. You'll rarely find anyone there besides scripters.

The point of a Classic Shard is not to go back in time, or recapture any feelings, or to relive any old 'glory days'...it's to get things back to the way we liked them before they got changed. Meaning, instead of item properties, and needing a spreadsheet to put together your armor, you can have a smith make your armor and it will be acceptable. Or instead of having to hunt new monsters in all new areas, it means that the old monsters and the old areas would be useful again. And, for some of us, it means that we are once again integrated into one playerbase instead of split by Trammel/Fel.

I know that some will just think we are resistant to change, and that we are just trying to re-create some era that cannot be re-created, but that's not the case. We just prefer the way the game worked before some (most) of the newer expansions were introduced. I know that for me, each expansion has made this game worse and worse since T2A. There are players that will feel the exact opposite of that. That's why I advocate for seperate Classic Shards...it offers players a choice where no choice currently exists.

 

[Evlar]

The truth is we oldschool gamers are an obsolete model, we are barely even niche we are invisible, undetectable by the devlopers eye. And that is laregely because gaming has become accepted as more than a part of "nerd culture" it's mainstream, even celebrities and other "important people" game and make no bones about it.

The sad thing about that, is it's true, plus the resultant blandness.

There's a turn of phrase I quite like though...

"Re-Imagining"

Seems to be a bit of a buzz-word at the moment, what with it's use with the "Re-Imagining" of the TV series V. The new series is arguably deeper and shinier, better effects and whatnot, but if the original series wasn't good in its day, or a good concept, then why would they bother?

The movie industry is full of re-makes. Is this because of lack of imagination, or is it because some of the stories were so good, they're worth looking at again?

Ok, so some of the remakes aren't always as good as the originals. My pet hate for any remake, was when they did an American remake of "The Lady Killers". For me, the original film, with Peter Sellers, Herbert Lom, Alec Guinness, simply couldn't be re-made. For one, the original actors made it what it was. Someone somewhere thought it was a good idea to make a new version of a film nearly fifty years old though.

So, I agree that things won't be the same again with classic UO, that's pretty much a given. So much has changed in the gaming industry, that the two stand poles apart. I do think there's sufficient enough niche demand for it though and with the right imagination on the part of both developers and players, I'm sure that the "Re-Imagining" of classic UO, can be a great success.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

I don't think about a Classic Shard in terms of "discovering new things" or "getting back that new feeling". If I wanted a a "new feeling", I'd play a new game.

The fact is, many of us continue to pay...and sometimes play...Ultima Online because it is still Ultima Online, and we love it. The problems is, Ultima Online has changed so much that some of us have gotten to the point where we barely recognize it, and parts we do recognize are useless. Go to any of the old towns...check out Nu'Jelm or Cove. There's rarely anyone there. Go into the old dungeons, like Despise or Covetous. You'll rarely find anyone there besides scripters.

The point of a Classic Shard is not to go back in time, or recapture any feelings, or to relive any old 'glory days'...it's to get things back to the way we liked them before they got changed. Meaning, instead of item properties, and needing a spreadsheet to put together your armor, you can have a smith make your armor and it will be acceptable. Or instead of having to hunt new monsters in all new areas, it means that the old monsters and the old areas would be useful again. And, for some of us, it means that we are once again integrated into one playerbase instead of split by Trammel/Fel.

Not sure if this is directed at me but if so that is not what I was going for, as a supporter of the classic shard I understand that it isn't about recovering the old days and all of that.

My point was that there has been a shift in the way people play games and their mentality, which in large part has to do with the ease of communication and availability of information.

And it's why even though I would play a classic shard and want for it to happen, I know on some level I would get bored of it's stagnant nature over a much shorter period of time.

Change isn't a bad thing, but the changes that have been made to the game since ren have been bad ones. I'm of the opinion that extremes are bad regardless of which end of the spectrum.

At some point the developers just lost sight of what they were doing, after a certain point it just gets rediculous. Paladins and Necromancers don't bother me they are pretty base classes in most rpgs, but when you start adding ninjas and samurais and gargoyles and elves it just becomes this awful mishmash parody of a game.

But the point I am making is that no shard will survive forever without some kind of change, eventually it just becomes to much of the same, and while old uo was a game I never got tired of playing for four years every day of the week I know that eventually I would hit a limit had I not quit regardless of the changes.

The changes that have made the game awful are the ones we have all discussed ad nauseum, but most of them are nothing more than the result of UO trying to be a bunch of other games without realizing that there is no incentive for people to play UO when those other games are doing it better.

And in it's current incarnation UO will never be more than a niche game, people talk about new subscribers but they need to realize there won't be any kind of numbers like there once was ever again, it just isn't going to happen, the people who stick with this game do so for one of two primary reasons, there may be other reasons but these are two most frequent I have seen.

1) They like the old style client and feel of the gameplay
2) They have older pcs that's cannot run modern day games.

I know some of us have monster PCs but trust me there are plenty of people who said they would quit if the old client was phased out due to them not being able to run it.

So short of completely relaunching the IP or having a classic shard that continues to add new content under heavy community scrutiny I don't see how the game would stay fresh.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Not sure if this is directed at me but if so that is not what I was going for, as a supporter of the classic shard I understand that it isn't about recovering the old days and all of that.

My comment was directed at no one person, it was a general statement based on some things that were being said in the thread.

But the point I am making is that no shard will survive forever without some kind of change, eventually it just becomes to much of the same, and while old uo was a game I never got tired of playing for four years every day of the week I know that eventually I would hit a limit had I not quit regardless of the changes.

No shard is going to last forever regardless of what they do to them. UO is, and has been since day 1, a dying game. From the moment it went live, it had a finite life span...all things do.

But I understand what you are saying. I try to choose my words carefully when discussing a Classic Shard, because people (not directed at you) have a tendency to twist them and quote them out of context around here. So, let it be known that I have never asked for a shard that would never change. What I have asked for is a shard that would change in way that did not follow the same path as the current game. Now this is going to get the naysayers all worked up about the devs supporting multiple rulesets and blah blah blah, but I stand by it.

I enjoyed Classic UO, I even enjoyed UO after UO:R. I enjoyed UO after LBR as well, and I have even had some enjoyment from UO after AoS and SE. Since the introduction of Mondain's Legacy, I have started to really enjoy the game less and less. SA has once again shift the playerbase to specific areas in search of specific things. I have gotten very tired of that particular model of play. In addition, over the last couple of years, I have spent some time writing about the old days of UO, and talking to former guild mates and former UO players. I have always known, in my heart, that I missed the old days of UO...not because of the friends that left the game...because I will miss them no matter what...but because the game has slowly morphed into something that it should not have morphed into...in my opinion. Those feelings were there, but I just ignored them thinking that what I was missing was the people that left...and like so many other anti-classic shard posters, I chalked the whole thing up to nostalgia. But once I started talking to old school players, and piecing together the events of the past, I realized, nostalgia is a part of it, but I really, really, don't like where they have taken the game from a gameplay perspective.

And in it's current incarnation UO will never be more than a niche game, people talk about new subscribers but they need to realize there won't be any kind of numbers like there once was ever again, it just isn't going to happen

The best bet for EA, if they really want to see Ultima Online at the forefront of gaming again, would be to release a true sequel. It needs to be from the ground up, all new client using the latest technology available, and it needs to be unique. If they decide to do a sequel, and they just copy WoW, they will fail. Any sequel needs to re-discover what made UO the longest running MMORPG in history...and that is the fact that it was once a virtual world...not just a game. That won't be easy to recapture in today's market...so I have very serious doubts that they will even attempt it.

the people who stick with this game do so for one of two primary reasons, there may be other reasons but these are two most frequent I have seen.

1) They like the old style client and feel of the gameplay
2) They have older pcs that's cannot run modern day games.

I know some of us have monster PCs but trust me there are plenty of people who said they would quit if the old client was phased out due to them not being able to run it.

I have a pretty heavy duty gaming rig (yes, I am a geek mom!) and I would still quit if the original client was phased out. Without getting into a long discussion, I simply hate the character and creature art in the new client. I hate it. There is nothing that can be said that can change my mind on that. If they had released the new client with character and creature models that even loosely resembled Ultima art (why didn't they at least look at U9 for clues?) then I would be using the new client, happily, but instead...they went off on this idea of "re-imagining" the game. Not a bad concept, but a terrible execution. (Note to the devs: If you want people to switch to the new client...MAKE THE CHARACTER AND CREATURE ART LOOK LIKE ULTIMA!)

So short of completely relaunching the IP or having a classic shard that continues to add new content under heavy community scrutiny I don't see how the game would stay fresh.

The game isn't fresh anymore anyway. The hard reality is that UO is old. The only thing a Classic Shard will do, in terms of business, is to bring back a few thousand players that left. These people will probably jump in on day 1 of the shard, and play it (and pay) until the day they pull the plug on UO. The question is, is the revenue from a couple of thousand returning players worth the time, trouble, and expense to create a shard for them to return to? At the moment, no one can accurately answer that besides EA/Mythic...and they aren't saying anything.

 

[Ransom_of_BiC]

I've been gone for 5 long years, and am just now returning to UO. Without forcing me to read a 40232234 page post-- can someone tell me why EA/Mythic is resistant to the idea of a classic shard?

I can't imagine that it would be that hard-- it's not like they have to build something new-- they just have rebuild the crap they already built.

I also know about a billion and a half people who would come ROARING back to this game post haste were there a classic shard.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

The question is, is the revenue from a couple of thousand returning players worth the time, trouble, and expense to create a shard for them to return to? At the moment, no one can accurately answer that besides EA/Mythic...and they aren't saying anything.

I think the problem is that they have no way of knowing whether a few thousand or barely a hundred will show up, it could go either way, I mean from a business perspective anecdotes don't cut it regardless of how many of us say we know x amount of people would come back, it's very shakey ground on which to make such a decision.

I've been gone for 5 long years, and am just now returning to UO. Without forcing me to read a 40232234 page post-- can someone tell me why EA/Mythic is resistant to the idea of a classic shard?

I wouldn't say they are resistant to the idea, more that they will need to get the idea approved by the people that control the resources in the company. As I was saying above, it has to make good business sense that really is what it boils down to.

The dev team could be head over heels in love with the idea but if they don't go through the right channels it remains what it has been for a long time, just a pipe dream.

 

[Derium of ls]

I've been gone for 5 long years, and am just now returning to UO. Without forcing me to read a 40232234 page post-- can someone tell me why EA/Mythic is resistant to the idea of a classic shard?

I can't imagine that it would be that hard-- it's not like they have to build something new-- they just have rebuild the crap they already built.

I also know about a billion and a half people who would come ROARING back to this game post haste were there a classic shard.

They have not given us much one way or the other on it. They are all well aware of the demand for one, All we can do is keep reminding them that we are here, and what our wishes are.

 

[NorCal]

The game isn't fresh anymore anyway. The hard reality is that UO is old. The only thing a Classic Shard will do, in terms of business, is to bring back a few thousand players that left. These people will probably jump in on day 1 of the shard, and play it (and pay) until the day they pull the plug on UO. The question is, is the revenue from a couple of thousand returning players worth the time, trouble, and expense to create a shard for them to return to? At the moment, no one can accurately answer that besides EA/Mythic...and they aren't saying anything.

This is what it all boils down to. I was doing some research about player subs. I found something that said UO had 135,000 paying accounts in 2007 over half where Japanese. Then I found a article that interviewed Calvin Crowner in 2009 for the release of SA that estimated there are about 100,000 paying accounts left with half being in Japan. He wouldn't answer a question about subs saying he couldn't give that information so it's obviously an estimate, but there are probably around 50-65k subs left outside of Japan. He also said that the average UO account was 6-7 years old. A classic shard wouldn't be about new players, it would be about getting a few thousand return players and possibly retaining people that haven't quit yet, but are unhappy with current UO. Would that be enough IDK.