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We were compering Healing not damage. And you did not read very well. The Cu does not have Chivalry DUDE!
The abilities are posted...
The Cu has NO magic.
Also went over the 12.5% maximum damage difference. RIF The Ram was at half life very quickly and just dropped. I did not have time to grab my timer. The Cu took a lot longer to drop to half life. You could see it healing even at its low healing skill.
They both killed the non paragons at the same rate. The Ram seemed faster but I was not timing. I ran consume so their HP and stam would stay max.
I turned off consume when the paragon spawned. The Ram was damaging the Balron more at first but then it got low on HP and was about to die. It took the Balron to 3/4 life faster than the Cu did. But, the Ram lost HP faster.
A chiv Cu would have killed it by half life.
Anyone else is welcome to find a different Mob to test on.
A poster said that Rams would be OP because they have Life Leech if they have 500 more training points. I disagree and saw exploited AI\Chiv Rams with maxed stats. They died just like my non exploit pets.
I am showing that they die faster than a current pet with a HP increase ability. So they would not be OP.
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You are missing key points which make all the difference. You understand how to spec pets and taming basics so that you can be helpful to a lot of beginners. But a lot of nuances seem go right over your head, and those nuances can make a big difference.
We have spent a lot of time in the past trying to explain several nuances and mechanics to you, but it feels like it falls on deaf ears or maybe you are too stubborn. It takes a tremendous amount of energy and time, of which can be spent in more productive and useful ways for us.
Valid testing requires more than 1 kill, more than 5 kills. It's actually quite time consuming, you have to take all variables into consideration. I know your son is attending Rice, a great research institution, maybe he can explain testing methods, etc, better than I can to you.
Chiv Life Leech and Necro Life Leech are two different things, first of all.
While running Krampus trade orders on baja, I took my fully scrolled Chiv/AI CU and my Chiv/AI Ossein ram to Balrons on my main server. I healed neither, no consume. Out of four paragon balrons, the CU died on two, in fact one balron, the CU died twice. The Ossein ram got two paragons. It would have died on one and the second one it ended with 100% health. The one it would have died on it started with less than 50 mana and had very low enemy of one up time. Second time it had an average EoO uptime.
There are problems with your test for multiple reasons, there is problems with mine also, but mine is a more accurate comparison.
Here is one of the nuances you don't understand. Your arguement of "just give them more points". You can't. It just doesn't work that way. It won't have the intended result you want. Ossein Ram spawns at the high end of the two slot range. You give them 500 more intensity points at spawn and they are now spawning at the low end of the 3 slot range, giving them less training points available.
All animals are rated on the same scale with the same breaking points for slots. So you cannot add more points and upping the slot intensity cap without affecting every other pet in game. Just giving more points would help very few (Platinum/Crimson Drakes, Fire steeds). The Bake Kitsune would actually benefit from lowering their spawn range.
The problem is a more fundamental problem with the system. The weight of Magery/Eval Intelligence, Necro/Spiritspeak not being in line with the other magical abilities: Chivalry, Spellweaving, Mysticism/Focus (and Healing). Magery/Eval is a weaker DPS than Chivalry but on par as far as utility, so many pets are converted to Chivalry from Magery/Eva or Necro/SS,effectively losing out on those 1501 intensity points. It's a fundamental problem with the disparity of Magical Ability weights. And that is not something easily fixed without affecting a lot of animals in game. The animals you consider "short on points" are actually some of the highest intensity pets in game, and that is what the Dev's see when you keep bringing up "short on points". You need to frame the arguement right if you want them to understand.
Think of the animals you say are short on points:
Ossein Ram 8775
Kirin - 8725
Dread Spider - 8734
Unicorn - 8725
Skree - 8762
Tsuki - 8559
The CU and Hiryu both have around 8270
The Dev's see this and think you don't know what you are talking about and that ends up getting us no where.
Creating a post about the current problem with magic/necro animals is not something that can just be posted real quick. My post on Frost Drakes took several hours to complete. We also don't know their rational for that implementation in the first place to be able to counter it. You would need to show how the original rational was flawed. Unfortunately @Khyro and myself were not playing when patch 97 was on test center. If we had, we might have been able to bring up bunch of compelling arguments and suggestions back then. We came back the day it was released by sheer luck.
Exactly. You and @Khyro are the ones that need to spend that time and do it. We will all benefit from that.
I suppose you would need to show him Kyronix how to start the pet out. How many HP and whatever. He will respect your charts and knowledge. Bombard him with the charts and math.
Maybe modify one of the magery weights for some of those. Eval is worth way too many points , right.
I just want all 5 slot pets to have the basic build that we both use. 600HP 700str 500 mana 270 int 20 5 30 regens and resists at cap. Then have 1501 more points to put on the magic 120 scrolls and abilities. Just like many pets already have.
Pick a pet. Then rebuild the pet and show him what slot level the pet should begin with and what the HP, str ect should be. You may have to change starting slot level on the pet.
The PP Nightmare could be a model that you are able to use. I would be Happy if the under point pets could be like that with Chiv. I am not asking for them to be like a Reptalon! But being like a finished Lesser would be sweet.
My preference would be:
Ki Rin and Unicorn to have the base build with Chiv etc. My Kirin is one of my favorite pets!
Dread spider a better necro or necro mage pet.
Tsuki Wolf a good necro pet.
FTW wants a remodel on the Shadow Wyrm I see.
Ram to have the base above with a magic (Chiv).
Skree to have the base above with a magic.
Bake Kitsune to have the base build above with a magic.
Imp to go to 5 slot. (someone gave me a PP one that they messed up. It could be fun)
Phoenix to have base with a magic. ( I hate those so do them last)
You two are the ones that got the Frost Drake changed. I don't understand why we fight over pets that have lower builds than they should. Tell me you will try and I will not give any opinions except to tell them that the tamers of LS will agree with any changes you make if needed. Changing starting slots and skill levels are fine with us. If we have to rebuild our Skrees then we are ok with that.
I doubt they come here. I never tag them here. I am not talking to them here. This is our sounding board to take the end product over to them.
That went very fast and sooo much was changing that we were just happy with the power of the pets compared to what we had. We did not want to rock the boat. Tamers can now go places that they could not go before.
The test dog did NOT have chiv!!!
who started that rumor? He would have killed the Balron at half life.This is something that yall are going to have to work with. Intensity does not equal end result pet.
Yall can explain it to him. Something in the formula for intensities is too high.
You are correct. The 500 point thing is how I see it as a pet builder not in context of game mechanics.
In conclusion:
PLEASE use your skills, math, communication abilities and charts to make some of our current pets better.
I would be happy if you were able to do this behind the scenes somehow. I will not discuss this on the official forums.
That's all I ask of you. If you agree and will try then we will be at Peace. I think many other posters will agree that yall should lead this. As long as you use the basic build plus 1 more round of training.
Thank You!
This is the best Taming forum for UO on the internet!
Yes. The Shadow Wyrm currently has so much untapped potential due to always spawning as 5 slots. They can spawn with up to 1,030 STR, have 29-35 Base Damage, and yet they're stuck at 125 Stam, GM Wrest, and 0 MR, which holds them back from being able to consistently inflict heavy damage. The GD and DTH also suffer from being stuck at 125 Stam and 0 MR. I think pets that spawn at 5 slots, should get 500 Training Points to work with so that players can customize them some. Put 150 Stam, a 120 Wrest PS, AI and as much MR as possible on a Shadow Wyrm, and you'll have a glass cannon. Something that hits hard as hell, but isn't that great at tanking (due to their Resists), gives it some flavor.
He's not talking about the dog, he's talking about the Ossein Ram. The difference in self healing between a Chiv Ram and a Necro Ram is massive, they're totally different beasts. Their self healing seriously ramps up with their damage output. Combine a Chiv+AI Ram with a Discord/Tamer, and we're talking about some seriously sick level of self healing. I too have had my Ossein Ram end a fight with a Para Balron with full health if he had a decent EoO uptime, and that's without Disco. With Disco on the Para Balron, when he's hitting for 160 a normal hit, and 254 an AI? His self healing becomes absolutely monstrous, ending the fight with full Health, every time.The test dog did NOT have chiv!!!
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I saw your post on the forums regarding this. Due to the training caps and the way the revert code works this would be near impossible to implement as it stands now. If you add 500 points to a Shadow Wyrm, they would revert. However if they fixed the fundamental flaw with Necro/SS, Magery/Eval and put it in line with other magicals, that's 2000 points saved. and a Shadow Wyrm would go from topping out at 9652 to being a 7652 animal. However due to their higher base damage (it ends up being a lot more dps), I am not sure they should be trainable. Perhaps they could then tweak their attributes to spawn at 150 dex and maybe overcapped wrestling.
SouthPaw
Lore Master
150 Dex and over capped skills would help, however resists and regens would still be pretty terrible.
I'd prefer a 4 slot shadow wyrm with lower str and normal base damage than a 5 slot with no regen and crap resists.
Wondering if they put the imbue value of magery, necro, spirit speak, and eval int. at 250 each if that would solve this problem or create new problems. Or put in a system for us to remove magery and necro and receive a 1501 TP credit. I'd love for them to implement ability removal and gain those TP back.
I've used shadow wyrms in the past, their issue isn't resists. As psftw says, they would be glass cannons. Remove the base damage and str and you remove what makes them special. Pets shouldn't be cookie cutters, they should have things that make them unique.
SouthPaw
Lore Master
@Pawain, why do you need to perform the test on a Balron? Why not some other mob or boss?
Life leech can be situational for sure and certainly doesn't work every hit. If the ram can't do damage or does low damage to whatever the mob is, then healing skill is definitely going to out perform life leech. The 2 abilities work so differently, I think it would be pretty much impossible to accurately state that 1 is definitively better than another, although in certain situations 1 can certainly outperform the other. They both have several pro's/con's.
Life Leech
Pro's
1. Can potentially heal large amounts, even more/faster than heal skill.
2. Can heal through poison and mortal strike.
3. It's an ability, not a skill. So no skilling or scroll needed.
Con's
1. Cannot cure poison.
2. Have to do damage to heal. Pet will not heal itself while standing idle after battle.
3. Pet cannot heal or cure it's master with life leech..
4. Works often, but not every time. Can be inconsistent at times. Works better with higher wrestling skill or against weaker mobs.
5. Costs 5 mana per use.
Heal
Pro's
1. Can heal and cure poison, even when pet is not actively fighting.
2. Can heal/cure itself and it's master.
3. Doesn't have to do damage to use heal skill.
Con's
1. It's a skill, so skilling is necessary and scrolls if you want it over 100. Can take a long time to gain skill.
2. Cannot heal through poison or mortal strike.
3. Can be inconsistent, pet's often times don't use a skill when we think they should.
4. Costs 20 mana per use.
Life leech can be situational for sure and certainly doesn't work every hit. If the ram can't do damage or does low damage to whatever the mob is, then healing skill is definitely going to out perform life leech. The 2 abilities work so differently, I think it would be pretty much impossible to accurately state that 1 is definitively better than another, although in certain situations 1 can certainly outperform the other. They both have several pro's/con's.
Life Leech
Pro's
1. Can potentially heal large amounts, even more/faster than heal skill.
2. Can heal through poison and mortal strike.
3. It's an ability, not a skill. So no skilling or scroll needed.
Con's
1. Cannot cure poison.
2. Have to do damage to heal. Pet will not heal itself while standing idle after battle.
3. Pet cannot heal or cure it's master with life leech..
4. Works often, but not every time. Can be inconsistent at times. Works better with higher wrestling skill or against weaker mobs.
5. Costs 5 mana per use.
Heal
Pro's
1. Can heal and cure poison, even when pet is not actively fighting.
2. Can heal/cure itself and it's master.
3. Doesn't have to do damage to use heal skill.
Con's
1. It's a skill, so skilling is necessary and scrolls if you want it over 100. Can take a long time to gain skill.
2. Cannot heal through poison or mortal strike.
3. Can be inconsistent, pet's often times don't use a skill when we think they should.
4. Costs 20 mana per use.
SouthPaw
Lore Master
Well if it's a glass cannon we're asking for then let's have them spawn with at least 150 dex/stam and 30 mana regen and over capped wrestling. Then if you have a bard tamer using the bard masteries to regen, could be amazing.
Yeah, 150 DEX/Stam and 120 Wrest would go a long way towards making them viable, they'd be consistent high damage melee then, especially with their STR and Base Damage. 30 MR would most definitely help as well. Here's my Shadow Wyrm, his magic skills aren't 100% trained yet.
When Pub 97 was first on TC, Shadow Wyrms would have their Health halved upon tame, and so were capable of being 4 slots. I saw one or two Shadow Wyrms with AI then. But then people complained about their low health, and so the devs allowed them to retain full Health upon tame, which made 4 slots impossible.
Here are the Single Mobs I use to test pet builds:
Para Balron
Allosaurus
Dimes
T Rex
Have to pass to advance.
Advantages:
Balrons:
Great for Fame and Karma. Easy to tell if one test pet is better than another in damage at the end of the fight when the Balron is invising and healing. Can see difference in Melee skills in steps between 100 and 120 on a base pet. They do a heavy melee attack, debuffs, poison, and magic attacks. Can show returners what their pet can do when trained. You get the dungeon drops in pack.
Pet gains skills while testing. Najs can kill them. Can read internet while testing. Gold.
Dinos:
You get to play in the beautiful land of Eodon. Where there are many quests and things to kill so your pets magic skills increase.
Easy to get to. (Sakkhra on crystal from Zippy))
The Mobs in the area have different resist set ups.
Mobs have Different Barding diff.
Mob can do distance poison.
The mobs do different damages.
Easy to find a poison damager that hits hard! (not many of these)
Mobs great to test pets melee skills.
Can pound on Triceratops and lore for mana usage and see melee damage given. The Tri does not do much damage.
Lots of mob varieties that take >1 min to kill.
Can test pets on multiple subjects with differing damage.
Can round up the Allos and leave them nearby to do whispers.
Allos give greatly gains!
Learn how to separate a target future pet or victim from the crowd. (those darn annoying fast birds dont get a permit and they love to target a tamer.)
Can learn a taming style here and excel at it.
Learn how to play in a crowd of Mobs while vulnerable when you just want a specific one.
Safe places to recharge mana on pet.
You can learn a lot about your pets damage output, ability to block/parry, ability to heal and cure. etc.
Great place to test magic damage and area abilities.
Other mobs in the area for NOOB pets or tamers. (show them how to get and use permits)
Great place to train pets while looking at mana usage.
Most pet types can get you all the permits.
I never was able to kill T rex before the pet revamp. Have a chest full of mosaicsand skulls now.
The coolest Trophies are from Eodon.
Giant Dino chickens that used to be 3 slot with that build.
Can run consume and take a friend or two to T rex or Great Ape and chat while doing research on the pet.
Meet others and do Zippy or the Spider Queen
You get all the dino Permits while you are there. You have been doing this every month for years before the pet revamp. By then you have used many templates with and without pets fight these mobs so you know how well the pet is fairing compared to others.
Biggest Advantage!!!!!
You ask the Devs at any opportunity for more trophies types to hunt and they gave us more. You ask for more rewards and they gave us more trophies and rewards recently.
If somebody else has better test subjects then they can post them here.
I recommend you test your new Ram in the land of Eodon.
That Shadow would be sweet at 4 slot.
And @PlayerSkillFTW is the only thing overpowered in this thread. He knows how to play to the full advantage. Better pets would be for casual players.
And @PlayerSkillFTW is the only thing overpowered in this thread. He knows how to play to the full advantage. Better pets would be for casual players.
I've taken my shadow wyrm successfully to Shimmering Effusion and Dreadhorn with similar resists.
see below
Unfortunately that was before the revert code was put in. Right now your Shadow Wyrm is 9391 intensity. To get the Shadow Wyrm to top range 4 slot it would have to lose nearly 2000 intensity. That's unfortunately more than half stating hits.
SouthPaw
Lore Master
Just an update in case anyone is interested...
I trained up another AI/Chiv ram. This time I went with 20/5/30 regens, 500 HP, 200 Mana, enough room to 120 all scrolls, except 105 Tactics. I believe this is the closest thing we have to a sampire-like pet at this time. I prefer my pets to have 600+ HP, but this guy doesn't need it. He has all GM skills right now, except only 60 Chiv and yet he can kill regular balrons with no help from me and finish with 100% HP or very close to it. Once I get 120 skills on him I believe he will be an extremely good pet. Can't ride him, but I'm usually in wraith form anyways.
I trained up another AI/Chiv ram. This time I went with 20/5/30 regens, 500 HP, 200 Mana, enough room to 120 all scrolls, except 105 Tactics. I believe this is the closest thing we have to a sampire-like pet at this time. I prefer my pets to have 600+ HP, but this guy doesn't need it. He has all GM skills right now, except only 60 Chiv and yet he can kill regular balrons with no help from me and finish with 100% HP or very close to it. Once I get 120 skills on him I believe he will be an extremely good pet. Can't ride him, but I'm usually in wraith form anyways.
SouthPaw
Lore Master
That and 120 wrestling will be a big help.
The 200 mana is ok for it? I know most pets go to 20 mana after a few mins. The 120 Focus, 120 Med will help it a lot. Be interesting to know how it works before comitting it with the PS. What encounters you plan to use it on? Sounds interesting..Did you try it on TC1>>And..It kinda sucks we cannot auto skill to 120 on TC1. Still we talked about it since 1 year ago. Why players we can and pets is so hard to code? Abyway be intersting to hear to see how it works..
SouthPaw
Lore Master
200 mana is fine since it has 30 mana regen and 370 Int (more since I keep Bless on him constantly). Most pets mana dump in seconds at the start of any fight, what matters more is how fast they can get it back. Their damage type is split 50% physical, 25% cold, 25% energy. I wish they had fire damage instead so I could use my necro corpse skin with him. I plan to use him for an "all around" pet. I'm pretty impressed with him now, but if I had a 120 wrestling and Chiv scroll for him he would be even better.
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GJ..