BitterBlack_SA (Custom UI)

[Old Man of UO]

Got it!

BitterBlack and SA_Enhanced now combined! I really like the BB coloring, scalable map and icons, but wanted the timers and such from SA_E. Best of both!

 

[BLAU]

hm 2 "problems"

1. hotbars can made longer then 12 windows? intend or bug ?

2. how to get a bod from npc ?

A1. not bug.　Look at the screenshot. And plz　read ReadMe.txt.

A2.If you're clicking them directly, right click or Shift+Right click.
But this is a characteristic of Default UI ....

 

[BLAU]

Got it!

BitterBlack and SA_Enhanced now combined! I really like the BB coloring, scalable map and icons, but wanted the timers and such from SA_E. Best of both!

Are you teasing me?
Did you read ReadMe.txt?
If you cannot keep a promise to me, you do not have a right using it.
If you continue breaking a promise, I have to stop that release.

 

[Old Man of UO]

Are you teasing me?
Did you read ReadMe.txt?
If you cannot keep a promise to me, you do not have a right using it.
If you continue breaking a promise, I have to stop that release.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying.
I didn't change anything in the BitterBlack at all, just added the mods from SA to get the timers and another mod to open the atlas on start up.

 

[Ash]

Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying.
I didn't change anything in the BitterBlack at all, just added the mods from SA to get the timers and another mod to open the atlas on start up.

He is referring to the readme file where he states not to altar or use files for any other purpose without permission.

 

[BLAU]

Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying.
I didn't change anything in the BitterBlack at all, just added the mods from SA to get the timers and another mod to open the atlas on start up.

Was the Timer released as independent add-on-mod?
You restructured that, if not so.
You cannot make an excuse, if you added restructured to my source-file even if it's a little.
And if "atlas on start up" is Mod which Mr. Illandril made, You can use it by your self-responsibility, because I know that it is Add-On Mod.
(But, it is wrong that you report it to me.)
But, I may not deal if trouble occurs to you by using that.

I am not arrogant.
I say that it is necessary to follow a rule to keep healthy community for us.

 

[Old Man of UO]

He is referring to the readme file where he states not to altar or use files for any other purpose without permission.

I haven't altered any files. I merely added files to the same folder as I have BB stored in. I'm not making any excuses, only stating what I did. I did read the Readme file and it does not say I cannot do this, only not alter files. I know English is not his native language, but I'm having trouble understanding what the issue is. What does this mean?

Is the Timer released as independent add-on-mod?
You restructured that, if not so.
You cannot make an excuse, if you added restructured to my source-file even if it's a little.
And if "atlas on start up" is Mod which Mr. Illandril made, You can use it by your self-responsibility, because I know that it is Add-On Mod.
(But, it is wrong that you report it to me.)
But, I may not deal if trouble occurs to you by using that...

This is from the Readme file:
[Note]
Don't alter files in the skin or don't make use of files/images in the skin for other purposes without permission.
But under some conditions I will remove this restriction in the future version, which will be released sometime after the official launch of UOSA.
For the time being I will put the restriction on the skin, for I release this as a provisional version.

As far as I can see, I did not do anything to disagree with these restrictions. If Blau thinks that I did, then it needs to be state more clearly.

 

[athos_uo]

This is from the Readme file:
[Note]
Don't alter files in the skin or don't make use of files/images in the skin for other purposes without permission.
But under some conditions I will remove this restriction in the future version, which will be released sometime after the official launch of UOSA.
For the time being I will put the restriction on the skin, for I release this as a provisional version.

As far as I can see, I did not do anything to disagree with these restrictions. If Blau thinks that I did, then it needs to be state more clearly.

I think you are making use of files of SA_Default_Enhanced now. And you are also making use of files of BitterBlack_SA at the same time. This means that the files of BitterBlack_SA are used for another purpose from the side of BitterBlack_SA. The author of BitterBlack_SA clearly prohibits it. Please stop it.

 

[Gildar]

I wouldn't like to get the haughty attitude.
I say that it is necessary to follow a rule to keep healthy community for us.

I am hoping there is just a misunderstanding here.

He is making adjustments for his own personal use. He is not making these changes available to anybody else.

Do you really have a problem with people changing stuff in your skin on their own computer and not distributing those changes?

 

[athos_uo]

I am hoping there is just a misunderstanding here.

He is making adjustments for his own personal use. He is not making these changes available to anybody else.

Do you really have a problem with people changing stuff in your skin on their own computer and not distributing those changes?

I can understand what you say.

But I think it is not necessary for him to post it in public. He can use his computer in his private at his will, then, he should keep it also in pvivate.

What he does is equivalent to redistribution, since he posts how to use files of BitterBlack_SA with other files.

 

[BLAU]

Let me add to an athos's opinion.
He does it for only his enjoying on his PC.
I know I can't stop it physically.
But I'm asking you in ReadMe.txt, "Please don't restructure my Skin".
It means that, when it's under the condition that the appointment can be kept, you can use that.
Is it wrong?
Therefore, I think that he should not make such a report here.
I do not understand precisely how he performed the restructure.
He may have realized without reorganizing my File really, or without overwriting.
Was it really so?
From his past posts, cannot judge it precisely.
But it is obvious that it is not good to write it here.
Please think about another problem if you cannot understand it.
It's my mind.
You say to a painter in this way, "I put different paint to your picture. I like this picture.".
You say to the person who doesn't like Mr.bush in this way, "He is cool! His small eye is cute. I love Iraq War!!", such a feeling.
I can only see as if he's provoking me.

As for letting me illustrate by English, this is a limit.
I cannot completely understand your opinion.
However, I do not think that I said a wrong thing.
Ahh...　I have to go to work 3 hours later.
I go to bed.
And I believe that your understanding is obtained.

 

[Gildar]

I am removing BitterBlack_SA from the Modders Exchange as your interpretation of your readme is a violation of the spirt of the Modders Exchange.

If you become more open with your skin in the future, and want it to be added back to the Modders Exchange, let me know.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I can understand what you say.

But I think it is not necessary for him to post it in public. He can use his computer in his private at his will, then, he should keep it also in pvivate.

What he does is equivalent to redistribution, since he posts how to use files of BitterBlack_SA with other files.

Well, I haven't told which files to use and put them where, so it is not what you said. I did NOT change or write over any of the BB files, nor any of the SA_E files. That was not my intent, and if I offended Blau, I did it innocently and apologize. I certainly did not mean to create any harm or offense.

It was my interpretation that this was allowable from the Modders Exchange. If it is not, it needs to be stated clearly. Again, I am sorry I created any controversy.

 

[athos_uo]

I am removing BitterBlack_SA from the Modders Exchange as your interpretation of your readme is a violation of the spirt of the Modders Exchange.

If you become more open with your skin in the future, and want it to be added back to the Modders Exchange, let me know.

Could you explain what in his interpretation is a vilokation of the spirit of the Modders Exchange? Where is it stated?

And why could you say that B-LAU is not open-minded? I think it is insulting.

 

[Ash]

Could you explain what in his interpretation is a vilokation of the spirit of the Modders Exchange? Where is it stated?

On the main page of the exchange it says for modders to get write access, among other things, they agree to let other's use their work as long as credit is given.

And why could you say that B-LAU is not open-minded? I think it is insulting.

I read Gildar's comment in that when he decides to open the restrictions, and not as an insult or reference to close mind.

Personally, I don't see any problem with BLau wanting to keep his skin as his own work and request that others don't alter or mix it. It is his work and he is doing everyone a favor by sharing it at all. I will honor and respect those wishes.

However, Gildar can correct me if I am wrong, but the Modder's Exchange, at least to me, is more of a community of modders submitting individual works but still collaborating and sharing ideas and work to better the advancement of all mods/skins/addons. Having a skin on there that is restricted in use is really against the reasons the Modder's Exchange was founded.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I think any other issues should be handled privately. I am sure no insult was ever intended by anyone.

Before it gets out of hind, might I suggest locking this thread?

 

[athos_uo]

Could you explain what in his interpretation is a vilokation of the spirit of the Modders Exchange? Where is it stated?

On the main page of the exchange it says for modders to get write access, among other things, they agree to let other's use their work as long as credit is given.

According to the statement, first of all, Modders Exchange can't carry B-LAU's skin. It stands that "Don't alter files in the skin or don't make use of files/images in the skin for other purposes without permission." in his ReadMe file.

I think there was a difference between B-LAU'S intention and what Illandril call the spirit of Modders Exchange from the first.

But, as long as I know, it is Illandril that asks B-LAU to let him post BitterBlack_SA on Modders Exchange.

Illandril wrote in his post as if B-LAU violated the rule of Modders Exchange, therefore his skin should be removed. It is not what B-LAU's work should deserve.

I think Illandril should write that Modders Exchange stops carrying his skin because B-LAU's intention was different from the intention of Modders Exchange from the first

 

[Thangorodrim]

I am removing BitterBlack_SA from the Modders Exchange as your interpretation of your readme is a violation of the spirt of the Modders Exchange.

If you become more open with your skin in the future, and want it to be added back to the Modders Exchange, let me know.

Thanks.

This is absurd. If the work is not being redistributed it can be locally modified.

Maybe you should think about forcing a gpl style license for exchange?

 

[Gildar]

There is clearly a huge communication gap here...

1. B-LAU asked me to put up BitterBlack_SA on the Exchange, not the other way around.
2. As I understood it, B-LAU was only restricting use of his art under the belief that it would need to be changed in the future. I did not believe that he had any problem with people doing anything on their own computers without distributing it. I now see that I was wrong.
3. B-LAU does not, and never has had write access to Modders Exchange. His skin was added to the Modders Exchange by me at his request.
4. I never said B-LAU broke any rules, I said his restrictions didn't match what the Modders Exchange is about. B-LAU was incapable of breaking the rules of the Modders Exchange, because he was never write access to anything at the site.
5. I never said B-LAU was not open-minded. I do not know enough about B-LAU to comment on his open-mindedness. I said his rules over use of his skin were restrictive.
6. The Modders Exchange has been, from the start, about Modders exchanging ideas, code, and artwork. In the near future, this should become much more clear.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

One question, I like your interface, but want to combine it with the SA_Enhanced UI. How do I do that?

It will be necessary for you to read ReadMe.txt.

Hum, any way I read this, the Old Man asked for instructions as to how, which implies consent.

Blau, replied in a manner that suggest the ReadMe contains the information as to the how and implies consent. What is certain, that at no time did Blau make it clear the STATED ACTION was prohibited in the reply.

This is from the Readme file:
[Note]
Don't alter files in the skin or don't make use of files/images in the skin for other purposes without permission.
But under some conditions I will remove this restriction in the future version, which will be released sometime after the official launch of UOSA.
For the time being I will put the restriction on the skin, for I release this as a provisional version.

As far as I can see, I did not do anything to disagree with these restrictions. If Blau thinks that I did, then it needs to be state more clearly.

I think you are making use of files of SA_Default_Enhanced now. And you are also making use of files of BitterBlack_SA at the same time. This means that the files of BitterBlack_SA are used for another purpose from the side of BitterBlack_SA. The author of BitterBlack_SA clearly prohibits it. Please stop it.

In addition, the bolded area does not hold true.

The Rule "don't make use of files/images in the skin for other purposes without permission", is very clear. Meaning that the rule is to NOT use the components (it clearly identifies components vs the entire skin), as has been stated by Old Man, the files/images in the skin were used in the proscribed manner/purposes. There is NO violation of the Rule.

If you want Blau to be better protected, then you should instruct Blau to change the verbiage to state the file/images MAY NOT BE USED WITH ANY OTHER SKIN WITHOUT PERMISSION, as that is HOW YOU are interpreting things, which is certainly NOT how it is worded.

As to the Spirit of the Modders Exchange, it has, as far as I am concerned been about promoting and facilitating the use of Custom User Interfaces, Mods, Add-Ons etc. That the code, images, files etc. are in the public domain free to be used by everyone, WITH NO RESTRICTIONS, other that go give credit to the authors.

Regardless of the Skin being on the ME or not this issue would have arisen any way. Meaning that ME is in essence an innocent bystander, that tried to facilitate the Greater UO community, even though the Rules for the Skin's use was contrary to the Spirit of the Modders Exchange.

Again, I would advise you to instruct Blau to change the wording to explicitly state the components may NOT BE USED with any other skin but his/her skin.

I would also advise you to suggest to Blau, that if he gets a message asking how to do something that he interprets as a violation of his rules, that he explicitly states that the action would be a violation of his rules. Rather than perhaps rely on others ability to read his mind as to what he meant.

Just consider how much would have been avoided, had Blau simply told the Old Man the merger would be a violation of his rules.

 

[athos_uo]

There is clearly a huge communication gap here...

1. B-LAU asked me to put up BitterBlack_SA on the Exchange, not the other way around.
2. As I understood it, B-LAU was only restricting use of his art under the belief that it would need to be changed in the future. I did not believe that he had any problem with people doing anything on their own computers without distributing it. I now see that I was wrong.
3. B-LAU does not, and never has had write access to Modders Exchange. His skin was added to the Modders Exchange by me at his request.
4. I never said B-LAU broke any rules, I said his restrictions didn't match what the Modders Exchange is about. B-LAU was incapable of breaking the rules of the Modders Exchange, because he was never write access to anything at the site.
5. I never said B-LAU was not open-minded. I do not know enough about B-LAU to comment on his open-mindedness. I said his rules over use of his skin were restrictive.
6. The Modders Exchange has been, from the start, about Modders exchanging ideas, code, and artwork. In the near future, this should become much more clear.

As for Nr.5, I'm sorry because I was mistaken. I misunderstood that "more open with your skin" is similar to "open-minded". I apologize for my mistake.

But I'd like to point out that this sentence is causing such a mistake. I think the word "open" itself has a positive value in English, so if you call someone "not open", it sounds like that you evaluate the someone negative. Actually, I read so.

As for Nr.4, you wrote that "as your interpretation of your readme is a violation of the spirt of the Modders Exchange" in your former post. This expression suggests that he intended to violate the rule of Modders Exchange. But his ReadMe file is not changed at all from the first release. The fact is that his intention differs from that of Modeders Exchange.

Why do you have necessity to use the word "violation"? It is not necessary, it is enough just to say that "his intention is different from that of Modders Exchange".

As a whole, it makes me mad, that you seem to treat him as someone who has done a wrong thing. The fact is that he created a useful tool and opened it for pulblic use. He only asks all the people not to alter his skin before EA releases the official version of SA client and he adapts his skin to it. He has been saying so all the time.

As for Nr.1, I don't know the fact, because I was not in the parties concerned at that time. I'm sorry and apologize for it, if it was not the fact.

--

In addition, the bolded area does not hold true.

The Rule "don't make use of files/images in the skin for other purposes without permission", is very clear. Meaning that the rule is to NOT use the components (it clearly identifies components vs the entire skin), as has been stated by Old Man, the files/images in the skin were used in the proscribed manner/purposes. There is NO violation of the Rule.

If you want Blau to be better protected, then you should instruct Blau to change the verbiage to state the file/images MAY NOT BE USED WITH ANY OTHER SKIN WITHOUT PERMISSION, as that is HOW YOU are interpreting things, which is certainly NOT how it is worded.

As to the Spirit of the Modders Exchange, it has, as far as I am concerned been about promoting and facilitating the use of Custom User Interfaces, Mods, Add-Ons etc. That the code, images, files etc. are in the public domain free to be used by everyone, WITH NO RESTRICTIONS.

Regardless of the Skin being on the ME or not this issue would have arisen any way. Meaning that ME is in essence an innocent bystander, that tried to facilitate the Greater UO community, even though the Rules for the Skin's use was contrary to the Spirit of the Modders Exchange.

Again, I would advise you to instruct Blau to change the wording to explicitly state the components may NOT BE USED with any other skin but his/her skin.

Thanks for your advice, EmigmaMaitreya! I'll do it. Actually I translated his ReadMe, but it seems that I mistranslated.

--

I can't understand why we should waste our precious time on discussing such a thing caused on boards.

I think essentially it has not been necessary at all.

I understand that we had some unfortunate discrepancy and misunderstanding.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

As for Nr.5, I'm sorry because I was mistaken. I misunderstood that "more open with your skin" is similar to "open-minded". I apologize for my mistake.

But I'd like to point out that this sentence is causing such a mistake. I think the word "open" itself has a positive value in English, so if you call someone "not open", it sounds like that you evaluate the someone negative. Actually, I read so.
...

English is one poor language that just gets worse every day. It is becoming a world language, which is good and it is bad. Each culture introduces a .... change in what a word means, it becomes prolific in that countries culture. Heck there are different meaning between English speaking Countries, and *Gulp* even here in the good old U.S.A there are differences in meaning.

The one I always love is the Artificial Intelligence, at one time it had a very finite/specific meaning for those that even knew of the phrase, now it can be used for a Toaster deciding to pop up your toast at a specified color. Your phone deciding to block a call etc.

But on to open, it depends on context, as you just got tripped up on.

Open Minded is not equal to Open for modification is not equal to Open for business etc.

And one last thing, let me assure you, that any one that has a NON English Primary Language, can certainly speak English better than I can speak their language, well unless we are talking Computer Languages, so from my perspective anyone of them talking to me in English, is doing me one hell of a big favor and I will certainly cut them a LOT of slack for doing that.

 

[Der Rock]

There is clearly a huge communication gap here...
1. B-LAU asked me to put up BitterBlack_SA on the Exchange, not the other way around.

ups,i feal i little guilty, i ask for BB_SA on the exchange :bowdown:
i dont understand why B-Lau is now.

i like the look of BB_SA UI, but i also some other mods(timer/glock/some(not all) icons from Decor.. and so on)
as far as i understand B-Lau , it is forbidden to implement those mods in BB_SA ?

as i posted latly, i would like to see that the look of an UI is an individuell artwork of each modder(like nautical ui/classic ui/ special crafter style ui/ or whatever)
beyound that should each user have the alternative to include or exclude whatever mod he want.
right,wrong?


modders should not , but

 

[Gildar]

As to the Spirit of the Modders Exchange, it has, as far as I am concerned been about promoting and facilitating the use of Custom User Interfaces, Mods, Add-Ons etc. That the code, images, files etc. are in the public domain free to be used by everyone, WITH NO RESTRICTIONS, other that go give credit to the authors.

Files at the Modders Exchange are not in the Public Domain. The copyright still goes to the appropriate people based on copyright law (most of it falls under EA copyright, actually, since it is copied verbatim from EA's default skin, or made by combining or by slightly modifying EA graphics).

As for Nr.5, I'm sorry because I was mistaken. I misunderstood that "more open with your skin" is similar to "open-minded". I apologize for my mistake.

No need to apologize. We both speak different languages, and we will misunderstand each other from time to time. You're doing a better job understanding me than I would be doing if this were a Japanese board.
You were correct, however, that I was using "not open" to speak negatively. I was talking about his policy only, however, not him. I do think it is overly restrictive to not want people to change files in his skin for their own use. That does not mean I think poorly of B-LAU - only the small bit of his rules for his skin.
I do not think it would be overly restrictive to ask people to not re-distribute any part of a skin (modified or not).
Again, I do not think poorly of B-LAU because of that. He has made a great skin, and is doing good by making it available to others. I would just like it more if he gave permission for people to do more with it.

As for Nr.4, you wrote that "as your interpretation of your readme is a violation of the spirt of the Modders Exchange" in your former post. This expression suggests that he intended to violate the rule of Modders Exchange. But his ReadMe file is not changed at all from the first release. The fact is that his intention differs from that of Modeders Exchange.

I know that what I first said could be misunderstood as me saying he intended to violate the rules. That was the point of what I said in Nr.4 - he didn't, I just misunderstood his intentions. It was my mistake, not his.

I can't understand why we should waste our precious time on discussing such a thing caused on boards.

I think essentially it has not been necessary at all.

I understand that we had some unfortunate discrepancy and misunderstanding.

When people get angry because of a misunderstanding, I think it is best to take the time to clear up that misunderstanding.

 

[Sabbath]

I arrived late to this party...I was growing anxious and sad as I was reading. I thought to myself "These are our friendliest, most level headed posters here! The sky is falling!"

I feel so much better seeing that all is well again

 

[athos_uo]

Thanks for your replies! I said too much, I'm sorry for it.

...It took me much time and thousand of corpses of acid slugs to cool down my head. I'm now OK, and calm enough to begin the discussion.

I spoke with B-LAU meanwhile, and we decided to explain what he wants and thinks from the first. I told him about suggestions offered here and he had the same idea. But his explanation will be long, long enough to take a whole day to complete. Then he will send it to me, for me to translate it. It will take also a whole day.

So, we can offer you his precise explanation, but it will be at earliest in two days. Please wait for us to do it, then we can begin the discussion again....

Thanks!

 

[BLAU]

[Introduction]
I perceived this was a simple problem. I couldn't understand why it became such confusing matters, so I consulted with athos_uo.
As he said that my post in English seemed not to be understood well, so I decided to write my thoughts again with help of athos_uo.
Before I go to the main subject, I have several points that I'd like to let you know.
First off, I'd like to do as well as possible without help of athos_uo. I asked him to translate ReadMe file of BitterBlack_SA, because I had failed in ReadMe of BitterBlack for KR before. As he continues helping me about it, I don't wish to make him bear more burdens about me. Besides he is a manager of one of leading UO fansites in Japan. He must be busy about various things now because it has been merely several days since SA was launched.
Since translating writing of another person and informing other people of that person's thoughts forces him to pay the utmost attention and to be most careful as a translator, he msut bear the more burden than he informs of his own thoughts. This amount of sentences will increase the burdens all the more. Therefore, I hope strongly that the current problem here will be ended with this explanation.
Secondly, as I write from the first, I'm bad at English, however, if someone asks me some questions, I try to answer them. My answers might not be understood correctly because of my bad English, however, I'd like to ask you to understand my background and situation. My english sentences are generated by machine translation, when I myself post. Although I write sentences, I don't understand how other people read my sentences, which might seem to be very odd. I add corrections to my sentences, running machine translation on my sentences, JtoE then EtoJ, again and again, So, it would be very nice for me, if you don't read my sentences as are, but you could try to think of what I want to say.
If my English is badly written, please point out that. It would help me progress in writing in English.


[Index]
Now, after a long introduction, I'd like to go to the main subject.

I think that there are three problems, which I need to answer, between you and me:
(1) To explain why I add a restriction to using BitterBlack_SA.
(2) To explain what dissatisfaction I have with Old_man_of_uo and what I want him to do.
(3) To answer Gildar's question and to explain my thoughts about putting BitterBlack_SA on ModdersExchange

 

[BLAU]

(1) To explain why I add a restriction to using BitterBlack_SA.

The decision is made based on several thoughts, as I wrote already in my former post of this thread. I think in complicated ways when I make a decision, so it is difficult to answer completely, in a single explanation, why I made the decision. Besides I find it neither necessary nor expedient to explain all of what I thought. Therefore, I'd like to explain only necessary parts of what I thought.
At first, since EA launched KR, I felt some questions to the function of CustomUI itself and why EA implemented this function to its client, which might seem to be unexpected to you. I won't explain about it, because this question needs much discussion. But I'd like to point out just that I think it very critical that no guidelines are set by EA when they implemented this function. I feel always a conflict in myself, when I create a skin, having this thought in me at the same time. But, as I write in ReadMe.txt, I want to contribute to the culture of CustomUI since KR, so I intend to add this skin(BitterBlack_SA) to one of its contributions in the near future.
Then, why don't I offer it now? I have some reasons for this. It would be easier to understand, if I liken what I want to explain to an example of a painter and a pictuire.
I think that the current version of BitterBlack_SA is unfinished. That is, I am a painter who are painting a pictuire which is unfinished. It is almost finished, but even if the rest is only one percent, it is unfinished for me. Is it absurd, for the painter to dislike that other people put various paints on his unfinished pictire?
As for me, for the moment, I want to continue painting until I can be satisfied with it to an extent. After that, I will loosen the restriction as I promised, but I want you not to forget that I'm not a material provider, but a skin creator.
As for BitterBlack_SA, it is according to my policy that I don't add complex functions to it.
I think that skins should only be able to change the appearance of client, things regarding functions should be actualized, through feedbacks, by EA and functions that are not officially introduced into official UI should not be added to skins.
This is what I'd like to explain here at this time.
By the way, at first I planned to take off Beta from the title of BitterBlack_SA and to finish the skin on Sep. 9 when UO SA was officially launched. Then after that, looking on how it goes with client for a while, I planned to loosen the restriction, if no significant changes were made to the official UI.
Unfortunately, it is not clear now, when UOSA client will be officially finished, so my plan is also not determined. But I will be busier from about October little by litte, so I won't be able to have enough time to deal with this thing later. So I wll make some decision till that time, be it releaseng the official version of BitterBlack_SA, or be it canceling its development and stopping opening it to public.

 

[BLAU]

(2) To explain what dissatisfaction I have with Old_man_of_uo and what I want him to do.

When I answered that you should read ReadMe.txt to your first question, I thought it would be enough to make you aware that what you were about to do goes against the conditions for using my skin.
However, your next post reported that you did the act that are against the conditons.
Regarding your actions after that, although I wished you to stop it, you ignored my intention, and it seemed eventually that you put the rules of ModdersExchage before my intention.
Your such actions were quite disagreeable for me.
But I heard from athos_uo that we had a mistaken in a translation of ReadMe.txt.
As we should admit that we had a mistaken, I understand your point to a certain extent.
Therefore, I'd like to ask you for the following anew.
In current version of BitterBlack_SA, I prohibit altering the skin. Altering the skin in this case includes: altering all the files in the skin, replacement or overwrite of all the files in it, putting in other files except of this skin into the same folders of this skin, using files in the skin for other purposes and so on.
As I set those conditions for use of this skin, please follow them.
Besides, based on the problem of this time, we decided to change the ReadMe.txt from the next version.

 

[BLAU]

(3) To answer Gildar's question and to explain my thoughts about putting BitterBlack_SA on ModdersExchange.

I think this has another problem from the current issue, so I answer it separately from the issue above.
First off, regarding your first question, I have a question about your view of this issue.
It is not a problem if his action disadvantages me or does me something problematic.
For any reason, having no respect for creators' intention matters.
As this is a basic thing, there might be no need to write it anew, but I'd like to explain my thoughts just to make sure.
Let's say, you buy a hot dog of 4 dollars at a kiosk. You get a right to eat the hot dog by paying 4 dollars. This is a value.
You pay 15 dollars a month to play UO. You get a right to play UO by it.
Then, what is a value to me?
I don't ask a monetary reward. I just permit you to use my skin, under the condition that you follow what I ask.
If you can not follow it, I think you don't have a right to use my skin.
Creators are not God or the Absolute Being. Therefore, it is not always necessary to follow them. But if you don't follow them, you need to stop using their products.
It's a simple rule.
However, it is very important to follow this rule, to keep communities in a healthy state.
It is very important to build a trustworthy relationship between creators and users based on it.
However, it seemed to me that his actions shake that trustworthy relationship between creators and users.
This is what I say.
Besides, the restriction that I set now is not limited to graphics. It's a pity that ReadMe.txt has a defect in this point, but it is not stated that the restriction is limited to graphics, either.
As I stated above in (1), I have my own reason to set that restriction at the moment.
However, to wish to add restrictions to using skins as well as to wish to make skins open source is the same in the point that they are both creators' intention and wish. These cannot be separated and shoud be treated equally.
Essentially these wishes are the same. These should be respected equally.
Besides, please keep it in mind that I'm not closed to the view of open source.
Actually, I say that I will remove the restriction in the near future and I did open BitterBlack for KR to public without the restriction, too.

Regarding that BitterBlack_SA is removed from ModdersExchange, I don't think that you have done a wrong thing.
Actually, I didn't understand the rules to post on ModdersExchange.
However, separately from the existence of that rule, it is the fact that I felt I need to loosen the restriction if I post it on ModdersExchange.
Therefore, I hesitated over posting it on ModdersExchange.
But I read a post that some users cannot download it from my site.
Nevertheless, since it was not far from Sep. 9 at that time, I thought it would be good to let them wait for a while. But it didn't go as planned, as I mentioned above.
So, I began posting it as was unfinished against my better judgement.
Since I thought that you understood my circumstances to a certain extent, it is a little pity for me to know that it's not the case. But as athos_uo mentioned it already in his post and you answered it, I will not mention it here.
Besides, it is a little pity for me that you did remove it without letting me know about it in advance.
However, I admit the justice of your act, and I thank you for that you have been very cooperative and helpful to me all the time.

 

[BLAU]

That's all of my explanation and answers.

I don't think that I can obtain your understanding even if I made such an effort to explain, but please don't ask me for more now.
I make efforts to create a skin, for you to enjoy it. But it makes me a little sad as I think why I should be put to taking such trouble.
I have no ability to satisfy all the people. And I have no abitily to answer all the questions, no ability to find solutions that satisfy all the people or no ability to explain all what I think clearly to you.
Unfortunately, this is the fact.
Please understand this.
And please don't forget to thank athos_uo, who made great efforts regarding this issue,
Thanks.

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
Therefore, I'd like to ask you for the following anew.
In current version of BitterBlack_SA, I prohibit altering the skin. Altering the skin in this case includes: altering all the files in the skin, replacement or overwrite of all the files in it, putting in other files except of this skin into the same folders of this skin, using files in the skin for other purposes and so on.
As I set those conditions for use of this skin, please follow them.
Besides, based on the problem of this time, we decided to change the ReadMe.txt from the next version.

Thank you for this explanation. That I now understand, which I did not understand your intent from your previous explanation. The previous ReadMe.txt was not clear but this one is very clear.

However, since your skin does not do what I want it to do, I am just going to delete if from my computer and not use it. Since you do not want to add the other functions and you won't allow changes, I have no desire to use it.

 

[Storm]

I already deleted it

 

[Sabbath]

For what it's worth, I do want to thank BLAU for his work as it has been an inspiration for skins that followed it and I'm sure will continue to add to the modding community. These folks are very giving of their time and energy and deserve much appreciation.

While I'm at it, thanks also to Athos_uo for his efforts in building the community.

 

[athos_uo]

For what it's worth, I do want to thank BLAU for his work as it has been an inspiration for skins that followed it and I'm sure will continue to add to the modding community. These folks are very giving of their time and energy and deserve much appreciation.

While I'm at it, thanks also to Athos_uo for his efforts in building the community.

Oh, Sabbath! What a brave man!

I felt myself extremely alone and helpless, but you did jump into the whirl and threw me true words!

Yes, your words are truly what B-LAU's works deserve, I do believe!

Now, I can once again believe in that I have true friends here and there!

I'll try to explain again soon later. Thank you very much, Sabbath!

 

[athos_uo]

I wouldn't like to get the haughty attitude.
I say that it is necessary to follow a rule to keep healthy community for us.

I am hoping there is just a misunderstanding here.

He is making adjustments for his own personal use. He is not making these changes available to anybody else.

Do you really have a problem with people changing stuff in your skin on their own computer and not distributing those changes?

I think you have changed your attitude with this post. But here is a misunderstanding based on a huge and serious cultural discrepancy. I'll explain it.

This is after all a problem of differnce in copyrights law of both countries.

Is it surprising, if I say what his insistence is based on Japanese copyright law? But it's the case.

Japanese copyright law is quite different from that of USA in the point of moral rights within copyrights.

The copyright law of USA makes much of ownership rights but light of moral rights. Actually there was no concept of moral rights until USA accepted Berne Convention(1886) in 1988. It is said that the acceptance of moral rights was very limited, even when USA accepted Berne Convention,

Cf: Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works

The United States initially refused to become party to the Convention since it would have required major changes in its copyright law, particularly with regard to moral rights, removal of general requirement for registration of copyright works and elimination of mandatory copyright notice. This led to the Universal Copyright Convention in 1952 to accommodate the wishes of the United States. But on March 1, 1989, the U.S. "Berne Convention Implementation Act of 1988" came into force and the United States became a party to the Berne Convention, making the Universal Copyright Convention obsolete.

Moral rights (copyright law)

While the United States became a signatory to the convention in 1988, it still does not completely recognize moral rights as part of copyright law, but rather as part of other bodies of law, such as defamation or unfair competition.

moral rights of Berne Convention

Article 6bis of the Berne Convention protects attribution and integrity, stating:

Independent of the author's economic rights, and even after the transfer of the said rights, the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to the said work, which would be prejudicial to the author's honor or reputation.

Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, September 9, 1886, art. 6bis, S. Treaty Doc. No. 27, 99th Cong., 2d Sess. 41 (1986).

But copyright law of Japan makes extremely much of moral rights in the world. While moral rights in Berne Convention are limited to Literary and Artistic Works, those of Japan are applied to everything that includes copyrights:

Copyright Law in Japan

第二十条 　著作者は、その著作物及びその題号の同一性を保持する権利を有し、その意に反してこれらの変更、切除その他の改変を受けないものとする。

My translation: Number 20: The auther holds the rights to maintain the integrity of his products and its titles, and can prohibit changing, removing or modifiyng and so on of his products.

Cf: Japanese copyright law, Moral rights

Moral rights

* Divulgence: The author can choose when and how a work will be made available to the public.
* Authorship: The author can choose how his authorship is represented in the work (e.g., under pseudonym or anonymity).
* Integrity: The author can control the modification of a work.

"Moral rights" are non-transferable. They remain with the author until they expire (see below). Although moral rights themselves cannot be waived, the exercise of moral rights is often waived by contract in certain situations, such as when an employee or contractor creates a derivative work of her/his employer's or principal's product. In such a situation, the moral rights would technically remain with the creator, but the creator would be potentially liable for breach of contract if he attempts to exercise those rights.

What B-LAU insists, is based on moral rights. It is not his selfishness, but ths Japanese copyrights law vouches for his insistence.

For Japanese people, products are not merly the object of ownership. The author's personality is reflected in his products. Modifying his products against his will means violating his personality.

 

[athos_uo]

I found official translation by Japanese government:Subsection 2 Moral Rights of Authors

(Right of preserving the integrity)
Article 20. (1) The author shall have the right to preserve the integrity of his work and its title against any distortion, mutilation or other modification against his will.
(2) The provision of the preceding paragraph shall not apply to the following modifications:
(i) change of ideographs or words or other modifications deemed unavoidable for the purpose of school education in the case of the exploitation of works under the provisions of Article 33, paragraph (1) (including the case where its application mutatis mutandis is provided for under the provision of paragraph (4) of the same Article), Article 33bis, paragraph (1) and Article 34, paragraph (1);
(ii) modification of an architectural work by means of extension, rebuilding, repairing, or remodeling;
(iii) modification which is necessary for enabling to use on a particular computer a program work which is otherwise unusable on that computer, or to make more effective the use of a program work on a computer;
(iv) other modifications not falling within those mentioned in the preceding three items, which are deemed unavoidable in the light of the nature of a work as well as the purpose and the manner of exploiting it.

Copyright Law of Japan

 

[IanJames]

Athos - thank you for all your assistance in helping us understand B-LAU's point of view. I think you are right, there is a cultural discrepancy.

I'm sorry that B-LAU views this as a mutilation of his work. It is not. He should feel honored that so many people like his work that they want to adapt it for their own use.

I hope at some point he eases the restrictions. I don't think anyone is interested in claiming his work as their own.

 

[BLAU]

Thank you for this explanation. That I now understand, which I did not understand your intent from your previous explanation. The previous ReadMe.txt was not clear but this one is very clear.

However, since your skin does not do what I want it to do, I am just going to delete if from my computer and not use it. Since you do not want to add the other functions and you won't allow changes, I have no desire to use it.

That's too sad.
But,I respect your decision.
And I'm thankful that you're cooperative for problem solving.

 

[canary]

I just wanted to say that this is easily my favorite skin currently available. It's very lovely and a shame that it isn't going to be put with others somewhere as a show of teamwork amongst the community.

 

[BLAU]

Became TIMEOUT.
I have entered busy-season.
I cannot be related to UO for a while.
I am sorry that it is unfinished...
When I have time, a little maintenance maybe I can.
Therefore, from this version, I changed Terms of Use.
Enjoy customising.

 

[Cear Dallben Dragon]

Became TIMEOUT.
I have entered busy-season.
I cannot be related to UO for a while.
I am sorry that it is unfinished...
When I have time, a little maintenance maybe I can.
Therefore, from this version, I changed Terms of Use.
Enjoy customising.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!
You will always be known at the original gangster.

 

[Masuri]

Became TIMEOUT.
I have entered busy-season.
I cannot be related to UO for a while.
I am sorry that it is unfinished...
When I have time, a little maintenance maybe I can.
Therefore, from this version, I changed Terms of Use.
Enjoy customising.

This is wonderful news BLAU, thank you for adjusting your policy. If someone takes up the mantle while you're away, so much the better for everyone. If you return to work on it again, bonus!

 

[Sabbath]

Thank you BLAU! I wonder if the skin will be going back up on The Modders Exchange? Gildar?

 

[Old Man of UO]

Thank you, Blau...

This is my custom BBE with timers, open atlas and backpack, skills, etc. that I added yesterday.

 

[Radix]

Great. Thanks!

what's new? (respect last version)

 

[Cear Dallben Dragon]

Became TIMEOUT.
I have entered busy-season.
I cannot be related to UO for a while.
I am sorry that it is unfinished...
When I have time, a little maintenance maybe I can.
Therefore, from this version, I changed Terms of Use.
Enjoy customising.

Can someone take this over, and re release?
Its a really nice skin that had died since the last patch.

 

[BLAU]

I am sorry to be late