Bard Mastery

[o2bavr6]

this abilities not only are interrupted by spells but they use the real skill value... bha...
the more I read about this masteries and more I think that are bad... the idea is wonderfull, the result is garbage...

Yup,

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I have to in hopes they will fix it.

But will destroy PvP as we know it today.

 

[Luke Carjacker]

I can't comment on the part about real skill because my 3 bards all have real skill, but I can say that casting spells still interrupts tribulation and despair (still need to do other quests).

I can also say, with great certainty, that there are almost zero situations in PvM where I would choose the discord mastery over just basic discord skill. The mana use & upkeep are onerous, and regular discord just plain works better. It's better on a single target, and you can keep discording more targets every 12 seconds. Maybe in a perfect situation, the additional pops of damage from tribulation might be worth it in PvM (and getting credit for damage is nice), but the mana cost & upkeep...

Also, biggest thing, casting spells still interrupts the songs. Makes them totally worthless in PvM. Might I remind the developers that bard skills have always been PvM (barding was made useless for PvP long ago), so basically all existing bards in game were designed for PvM. And these things make the existing bards useless.

 

[Logrus]

Despair: Damage Takes place after the first pulse. The strength reduction takes place on casting.


Re: proposed changes stated in OP.
Working on getting all those changes coded so we can get them on TC to see how they balance out.

 

[Pinco]

a good news finally
however the use of real skill instead of the modified value is not good at all...

 

[Poo]

a good news finally
however the use of real skill instead of the modified value is not good at all...

go real or go home (skill wise)

its the same as bushido and controlling your lesser hiryu.

 

[sirion]

Can we have just one post (not thread) that will combine/update all information on what is and what will be for the new bard stuff? (The Lazybone Package)

And the post shall written in a way so that players can understand? (with examples..etc.)

I am like many others who are quite disappointed with the new abilities and restrictions. But I also see there are already new plans ahead. But these information are scattered.

 

[Poo]

thats hard to do when the stuff itself is being changed and tweaked all the time.

if your looking for the most direct stuff you may wanna follow the devs posts only.

 

[Pinco]

if they want us to use the real skill why they made skill bonus items (like the mark of travesty)?
Is not for me, because like you said if I need a skill bonus I can fit it in another skill. Just imagine a newbie, he starts his bard, spend time and gold to put some skill bonus and NOWHERE is wrote that is useless. A text line in the spell like "this spell use your real skill value", could be a good thing if they cant use the bonus skill...

If you think about it, there are enough implicit things in this game wrote nowhere that only by searching around internet you can discover (instead of read it in a tooltip directly in the game...)

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I'm in favour of it staying real skill. I have a few secondary bards on other shards that use skill items but I don't think they should have the benefits my fully trained main does.

 

[Pinco]

I could be in favor IF and only IF the patch that allow us to cast spell will be applied. If we cant cast spells there are too much limitations.
and if there should be the real skill limitation, they have write it into the tooltip, because without an advice is unfair for who has not read this forum.

 

[ultima77]

Hey Logrus, why would you say that you're going to increase the damage output of Despair in PvM and then subsequently cut the damage output in half? I have defended the changes since the beginning, but there's a lot of confusion regarding whether the changes referenced in this thread will actually occur or if the masteries will continued to be nerfed even though they had little use in their original form as is.

Seriously, I truly hope the referenced changes will be implemented, bc if they are (esp. no casting interruption, lower mana cost, higher Despair damage in PvM), then the masteries will definitely become a major asset to the Bard profession.

 

[WarUltima]

Despair should have a lot of damage in PvM...
Make it auto target monster's lowest resist and/or works with sdi and slayer spellbook and/or lower the mana upkeep and/or making it tick more and more up to triple of its current damage.

Looks like in order to achieve 60 damage you need 120 Music + 120 Desco + 120 Provo + 120 Peacemaking. And even 60 is way to low for any practical use in PvM when each tick takes 11 mana.

[repost from the other thread]

Just make sure it doesnt do crazy stuff in PvP...

 

[Logrus]

Damage output is currently 36 in PvP/72 PvM
which is a decrease PvP and increase in PvM

Thats still not final. There's some other stuff going through QA to see how high I can bump the damage before it starts to be problematic in PvP.


Currently in PvP Damage output is just between fireball and lightning, which is kind of expensive mana wise but since this wont be interrupted by spell casting it would be allowing significant damage out put potential so I'm not entirely sure that it is that weak. The initial mana investment also immediately does the strength debuff which is quite significant and by side effect lowers max HP. (Not to mention if you are lucky enough to cause somone to have armour un-equip because they fall below the strength requirement)

Also with the current damage output which I'm still tweaking I'm getting sustained times on despair approaching 36-40 seconds, which is 18-20 ticks.
At a guaranteed rate that pushes their damage output to exceeded mages in dps and significantly less mana cost, only requiring investment in initial cast time and upkeep.


So for balancing options may have to cause damage dealt by the bard or spells cast by the bard to reset the pulsing of the spell song.

Or maybe have a limited number of ticks before it has to be recast.

 

[Pinco]

probably a limited number of pulses shoud be better, because in this manner the bard can use it without running out the mana by keep it active and his enemy has a chance to heal himself in the middle of 2 songs...

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I've asked this in the Ask A Dev forum but thought I'd post it here too.

Regarding the Mana Regen, Phoenix's post says the MR is capped at 30, yet publish 46 says the cap was removed, the MR calculator on UOguide doesn't take into account any cap on MR. So which is right?

If/when the Mana changes go in I'm probably going to need to rebuild my suit to sustain the upkeeps (if possible), over 30 is possible but if its capped anyway I'd like to know in advance.

 

[Logrus]

I believe the cap from items is 30 as stated in Phoenix's calculations.


Going by his numbers with a bard having 6 mana (from 40 LMC) cost upkeep for any spellsong, they could keep at least one of them up indefinitely without going too overboard on gear.


Sustaining 2 spellsongs would raise that cost to about 12.
So 100 Mana 0 MR = 8 Ticks/ 16 Seconds
1 MR/Sec would extend that by 1 tick
1.5 would extend it by 2 ticks
2 MR/sec would extend it by 3 ticks


Also looking at adjusting the upkeep so the bard will have an easier time sustaining in the party. This should allow the bard to buff the party, keep them buffed, and still participate in any battles. Albeit they will have to watch their mana carefully.

 

[Diggity]

...
So for balancing options may have to cause damage dealt by the bard or spells cast by the bard to reset the pulsing of the spell song.

Or maybe have a limited number of ticks before it has to be recast.

I think trying to balance all the current restrictions for despair with usable damage output in PVM is a lost cause. As long as one of the restrictions is mana/regen for upkeep, I don't see how despair ever becomes a usable spell. If a char has decent mana/regen, they are probably a magic user of some sort. With sdi and slayers available, base damage of despair compared to potential pvm damage of magic spells - there is no comparison.

I think limiting the number of ticks and boost the effectiveness is the way to go. What I'd really like to see is a discord spellsong be used in conjunction with a firehorn to give a single targeted AI effect - ie only target gets the AI hit. I think 120/120 disco gives less than 35 damage but in PVP, still cap at 35 in case the bard also has provo and/or peace. With this type of song, you could adjust either mana cost or damage independently - making it easier to balance imo.

 

[Poo]

Going by his numbers with a bard having 6 mana (from 40 LMC) cost upkeep for any spellsong, they could keep at least one of them up indefinitely without going too overboard on gear.

huh?

which spellsong is this that you can keep up indefinatlly?
i was using the 2 disco ones and there is no way those would stay up with that.
and i know my party member was using the peace ones and she was zeroing her mana all the time (matter of seconds)
i fooled around with the provo ones and they seemed about the same.

anyone able to keep there mana up while using the spellsongs?
(without having 30 MR and 120 in both med and focus)

 

[WarUltima]

huh?

which spellsong is this that you can keep up indefinatlly?
i was using the 2 disco ones and there is no way those would stay up with that.
and i know my party member was using the peace ones and she was zeroing her mana all the time (matter of seconds)
i fooled around with the provo ones and they seemed about the same.

anyone able to keep there mana up while using the spellsongs?
(without having 30 MR and 120 in both med and focus)

OTHER THAN disco ones the 4 other spellsongs from provo and peace is very very easy to keep at least 1 up indefinitely.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

huh?

which spellsong is this that you can keep up indefinatlly?
i was using the 2 disco ones and there is no way those would stay up with that.
and i know my party member was using the peace ones and she was zeroing her mana all the time (matter of seconds)
i fooled around with the provo ones and they seemed about the same.

anyone able to keep there mana up while using the spellsongs?
(without having 30 MR and 120 in both med and focus)

Well several things to take notice of...

The Discord ones have higher cost than Prov/Peace.
If you're in a party, the effects (your friends Peace) would have double upkeep cost because its working on you as well as her. Plus any pets you or she had.
I think you said you were on a Discord/Tamer with no Med. (Might have misread that.)

My questions to Logrus about sustaining the upkeep cost were about a single non partied bard not using pets.

Lower mana upkeep & lower mana upkeep for having multiple bard skills *I think* are 'under consideration' but not in game yet.

 

[Rainfo X]

Ok here's a short workup for modifications to the mastery system that are in consideration, pending how well they play together and what the possible implications may be.

So some may not make it at all, some may change slightly etc. usual disclaimer about guarantees and product returns.

In no particular order

All Abilities: No longer interrupted by any bard skills.

The non-directed/non-focused/aoe/passive abilities, which is pretty much anything except despair. Though this may go for tribulation as well (pending some testing)
Would not be interrupted by the bard casting spells.
(I guess nobody on test ran a stoneform preservance bard. That was fun)

Despair/Tribulation
Slight lowering of the damage from despair/Tribulation in PvP, and raising of the damage in PvM. (Possibly factoring in Resist Spells of target)
(Possibly also awarding bonus damage for bard also having provoke/peacemaking , so that high damage still very possible for Bards investing alot of skill points.)


AOE Party Effects:
Allowing bard to run multiple spellsongs at the same time.
(May be interesting to stack Despair and tribulation but for now not being considered)


All Abilities:
Lower mana cost for casting and upkeep if the bard has multiple bard skills.

Hi, can I get a confirmation on this? My bard has 120 Music/Provo/Disco and I went with Disco mastery. If I had Peacemaking, would I do more damage with Despair?

 

[Logrus]

For currently in effect:
Discord mastery abilities are tied directly to discord. No bonuses given for extra bard skills.

Upkeep raises by 2 per additional mobile receiving the effect.
(So a tamer bard with 1 pet(not mounted) would have +2 to base upkeep cost of the beneficial abilities)
----------------------


In progress:
Lowering party cost considerably. (Maybe +1 for up to 5 party mobs, + 2 for up to 10 party mobs. )

Slayer support.

Discord:
Adding magic resist factor into discord abilities.
Maximum Ticks before recast.

 

[Saint of Killers]

Would've been nice if you mentioned the numbers were cut in half on the publish notes Logrus instead of just this for Despair:

*Despair: Target Strength Reduced by up to 32, 20 – 60 Damage (Physical), every 2 seconds.

...

At least my red archer is all bardie scrolled up now in case I want to pvm with him. :/

 

[Logrus]

Playing with numbers today.

Lowering upkeep cost on some of the abilities.


With 40 LMC / 120 med/120 focus/ 80 Int and 0 MR and No LMC from other bard skills
Invigorate sustainable indefinitely.

With 9 Mr and LMC from other bard abilities, Invigorate and Inspire sustainable concurrently indefinitely.


I worked in slayer damage, think it may need some tweaking, because I an 1 hit earth ele's with despair for about 120 damage after resists.
have to check that against other slayers.

Slight lowering of upkeep cost on tribulation.

Started testing resist factoring and tick limitations.

 

[Pinco]

don't try the damage againist earth elemental, try againist something better like dragons or stronger monsters... you can do 120 damage to an earth elemental with a fireball if you have the elemental slayer

 

[Beastmaster]

Playing with numbers today.

Lowering upkeep cost on some of the abilities.


With 40 LMC / 120 med/120 focus/ 80 Int and 0 MR and No LMC from other bard skills
Invigorate sustainable indefinitely.

With 9 Mr and LMC from other bard abilities, Invigorate and Inspire sustainable concurrently indefinitely.


I worked in slayer damage, think it may need some tweaking, because I an 1 hit earth ele's with despair for about 120 damage after resists.
have to check that against other slayers.

Slight lowering of upkeep cost on tribulation.

Started testing resist factoring and tick limitations.

Hmm...let's see how that fits into the pure bard template...

120 med
120 focus
120 music
120 peace
120 disco
120 provoke

That's absolutely peachy...








...until you want to hide, heal, go somewhere etc.

 

[Saint of Killers]

Hmm...let's see how that fits into the pure bard template...

120 med
120 focus
120 music
120 peace
120 disco
120 provoke

That's absolutely peachy...








...until you want to hide, heal, go somewhere etc.

He said he tested it with 120 focus/120 med/80 int/0 mr.

That's the same passive regen rate as 20 focus (human joat)/120 med/80 int/6 mr.

So you can slap on your magery skill Beastmaster and heal/invise to your hearts content.

 

[ultima77]

Hey Logrus, just FYI, I was playing around with the Masteries today on TC, and I discovered that they actually consume more mana if you're mounted v. unmounted. I don't think that was intended, and I'm not sure that it's the case on non-TC shards, but just wanted to let you know.

 

[Logrus]

I'll take a look at it.

 

[Poo]

Hey Logrus, just FYI, I was playing around with the Masteries today on TC, and I discovered that they actually consume more mana if you're mounted v. unmounted. I don't think that was intended, and I'm not sure that it's the case on non-TC shards, but just wanted to let you know.

thats different, hahaha

i would have never even thought to look at something like that

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Is this stuff happening or not?

 

[Poo]

it all got real quiet with the barding changes and tweaks all of a sudden didnt it

 

[yars]

imo seems like our thoughts have fallen on deaf ears
ive noticed hardly any difference and im manaliscious still running out and still seeing no change

 

[Logrus]

Still happening.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Is the flying pig symbolic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_pig

 

[Luke Carjacker]

Still happening.

I'm encouraged that Logrus is still watching this forum. As many of us predicted over and over, the bard masteries are simply not useful in the vast majority of situations. The concept has crashed to the ground with a thud. Don't know what else to say about it; total failure as it stands right now because nobody (and I mean NOBODY) is using them.

 

[Garm The Green]

I'm encouraged that Logrus is still watching this forum. As many of us predicted over and over, the bard masteries are simply not useful in the vast majority of situations. The concept has crashed to the ground with a thud. Don't know what else to say about it; total failure as it stands right now because nobody (and I mean NOBODY) is using them.

Chill out negative nancy!

Cheers Logman! We trust in you... ) Thanks for your efforts!

 

[Kim Li of LS]

I went to test and tried out the disco mastery recently. Being able to cast spells would make it usable IF it was possible to keep it going. I tried 120 med/120 focus/~16 mr and 40 lmc - tribulation would still drop in about 2 mins. The ability is nice but not practical for use with that upkeep cost.(would be nice if you could at least gheal to heal yourself) As far as the real skill issue id say require 90 real music/(disco/provo/peace) to get the mastery.

 

[Rainfo X]

Yeah, I agree, I am not currently using the abilities. Any chance we can get some sort of bard mastery that allows you to lower the cooldown between abilities or something like that? Thanks.

 

[Logrus]

Update:
Sent a bunch of stuff over to QA so I'm just waiting to patch the initial holes that I know they are going to tear into my stuff.

So first a recap of what I was planning.

All Abilities: No longer interrupted by any bard skills.

The non-directed/non-focused/aoe/passive abilities, which is pretty much anything except despair. Though this may go for tribulation as well (pending some testing)
Would not be interrupted by the bard casting spells.
(I guess nobody on test ran a stoneform preservance bard. That was fun)

Despair/Tribulation
Slight lowering of the damage from despair/Tribulation in PvP, and raising of the damage in PvM. (Possibly factoring in Resist Spells of target)
(Possibly also awarding bonus damage for bard also having provoke/peacemaking , so that high damage still very possible for Bards investing alot of skill points.)


AOE Party Effects:
Allowing bard to run multiple spellsongs at the same time.
(May be interesting to stack Despair and tribulation but for now not being considered)


All Abilities:
Lower mana cost for casting and upkeep if the bard has multiple bard skills.

And the status update as is currently testing.

Lower Upkeep cost from support skills: Done
(Peace and Provo Abilities all received small lower mana cost adjustment.)

Spell song stacking: Bards using peace or provo mastery can run both spell songs concurrently if they can manage the upkeep cost.

Spell song effects: The base effects to all spellsongs will receive slight bonuses from having other bard skills at GM or higher.

Despair/Tribulation:
Limited number of rounds. Some effects can be resisted by players with high magic resist.
Tribulation damage should now be more effective.
Slayer support for Despair and Tribulation



Also added small tweak elsewhere. (Secret!)



-*Edit* Forgot one of the most important things. Spell songs won't be interrupted by casting spells.

 

[Rainfo X]

Update:
Sent a bunch of stuff over to QA so I'm just waiting to patch the initial holes that I know they are going to tear into my stuff.

So first a recap of what I was planning.



And the status update as is currently testing.

Lower Upkeep cost from support skills: Done
(Peace and Provo Abilities all received small lower mana cost adjustment.)

Spell song stacking: Bards using peace or provo mastery can run both spell songs concurrently if they can manage the upkeep cost.

Spell song effects: The base effects to all spellsongs will receive slight bonuses from having other bard skills at GM or higher.

Despair/Tribulation:
Limited number of rounds. Some effects can be resisted by players with high magic resist.
Tribulation damage should now be more effective.
Slayer support for Despair and Tribulation



Also added small tweak elsewhere. (Secret!)



-*Edit* Forgot one of the most important things. Spell songs won't be interrupted by casting spells.

Sweet... Is the upkeep of despair/tribulation not lowered though? I'm going to give them another chance with the slayer thing, but I think it will drain mana fast! (especially if I try and cast spells at the same time). And I guess that's a no on lowering the times between actually activating the skills. Is there going to be some kind of sound effect? I think that would be kind of neat since they are bard abilities after all. I wonder what the secret is...

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Sounds promising.

The Despair/Tribulation Slayer support... will that work from instrument or a held weapon or book?

Will the limited number of rounds also affect PvM?

 

[Logrus]

Slayer support will be from the instrument.


The round limit on despair/tribulation will be PvP as well as PvM though currently only players have a chance to "shrug-off" the effects.
Also the round limit increases with skill.


I didn't lower the upkeep cost directly on tribulation/despair because they are sustainable in PvM for extended periods through player accessible effects which restore mana. (not that I want to make those effects necessary, but standing alone they do provide significant capabilities for dishing out damage)
mana vampire
wraith form
hit mana leech

 

[The Real John]

Did you fix the issue with mounts/ethy's geting increasing your upkeep?

 

[Logrus]

Yep.
Party Upkeep should now be alot more player friendly.

 

[Poo]

those sound good

i figure by the time i get back from holidays in a couple weeks those will hopefully be in full swing so when i get back to work i can sink my teeth into those on my down time.

and just to get things clear in my head.
we will be able to stack the mastery skills except for the disco ones.

so like i can roll in, normal disco the Dark Father (just an example) then slap a Peace mastery one him, then a provo mastery on him, then start dropping spells?

(i know that sounds like a lot, but if you look at how LONG that takes to get all those off your talking a couple minutes, by which time the DF is probablly dead)

 

[Logrus]

Not exactly. You still will only have one mastery at a time.

If you're mastery is peacemaking, you can run both resilience and preservance at the same time.

In the cast of provocation mastery you can run both invigorate and inspire at the same time.

Discord Mastery still is one ability at a time however.

 

[quig]

Even if all of these had no mana cost, I cant see bringing my bard out of retirement. Peace is still useless in a group, I only use it for taming sometimes now. Provoke is fun but kills way to slowly and failures are real killers. Discord is the only one I use, but not in a group. By the time I get something discorded in a large group, its dead or almost dead. These spells dont make up for the core disadvantages of a bard, and so makes them worthless.

 

[NBG]

Could you gain skill using the mastery song to 120?

Some people are saying they got gains but it seems like its from GGS. Logrus could you confirm if one can gain skill via spell songs?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Can you explain/check its working what the "Increased resistance to Poison" from Resilience actually does. I've been using it and I'm still getting Poisoned just as much as I should for the levels of Resisting Spells I had on.