About melee training with HCI.

[Jartan]

My question is basically do HCI and HLD affect melee training (swords/fencing/etc)? Skill gain is usually based on difficulty and these two things lower difficulty a good bit.

 

[Taylor]

Hmm. My understanding is that you gain when you hit--not when you miss. I could be wrong, but if this is the case, it would mean that hci and hld would be beneficial for melee training.

 

[Jartan]

Hmm. My understanding is that you gain when you hit--not when you miss. I could be wrong, but if this is the case, it would mean that hci and hld would be beneficial for melee training.

You gain when you hit based on the difficulty of hitting. That's why you have to fight monsters with higher and higher wrestling. I'm just curious if HCI/HLD lower the "difficulty" as far as the gain systems sees it.

 

[Taylor]

But do you gain skill if you whiff?

 

[Jartan]

But do you gain skill if you whiff?

The chance to gain on a miss is small. The chance to gain on a sure hit is also very small though.

That's why I'm asking.

 

[Basara]

I believe, but am not certain, that HCI is applied after the chance to hit is "rolled" (and the accompanying gain check is processed). If so, it wouldn't affect the gain chance either way.

HLD would work the same way, as it acts as negative DCI.

Note that, despite there being theoretical points where one could hit 100% of the time or miss 100% of the time, there is hard-coded into the combat system minimum chances to hit or defend. (something like 2% or 3% - it's been a long time since that Dev post). So, even if you have no defenses whatsoever, you have a miniscule chance to not get hit (which can be increased slightly by DCI), and have a tiny chance to hit the otherwise unhittable.

 

[hungry4knowhow]

I've always been under the impression that both HCI and HLD help in training because they increase your chance to hit. You get the most gains on targets within 20% of your skill.

HCI would be included in the roll to hit. It wouldnt make sense to roll for a hit and then add in HCI.

This is def a question you should pose in the Warrior forum. There are people over there that can throw out game mechanic mathematics like no ones business. They would have a more informed and proof ridden response than I.

 

[Basara]

I've always been under the impression that both HCI and HLD help in training because they increase your chance to hit. You get the most gains on targets within 20% of your skill.

HCI would be included in the roll to hit. It wouldnt make sense to roll for a hit and then add in HCI.

This is def a question you should pose in the Warrior forum. There are people over there that can throw out game mechanic mathematics like no ones business. They would have a more informed and proof ridden response than I.

I agree that the Warrior forum might know better.

However, your middle paragraph above is self-contradictory. You are saying that HCI should be added, but that it shouldn't be added.

No matter how it's calculated, HCI would be added in somewhere. The question is really at what point in the calculation/addition process does the addition occur, and at what point is the skill gain check made.

The difference between combat and other skills makes figuring out the effect of HCI on skill gain a bit more cloudy.

The crafting and casting skills (where the triggers for gains are more obvious) have their skill gain calculations made prior to the final success chance, before additives such as skill bonuses and talismans (but after things that modify the base skill, like the 2-level difficulty reduction for scroll use).

The pattern prevalent in the game, therefore, is of skill checks being made at the base level. But, many of these appear to allow gains on both successes and failures.

As combat skills tend to gain from successes in either offense or defense, it's probable the gain check is made prior to the actual determination of success, but is only allowed to be applied if you actually hit.

So HCI, in this theoretical situation, doesn't change the skill gain chance calculation directly, but affects it in a positive way nonetheless.

On the other hand, if HCI was applied before the skill gain chance was determined, you'd get the greater chance of a skill gain succeeding, but a much reduced chance for the gain to actually be indicated.

Which one actually is the method used, I don't know. However, the order of application these bonuses, and if they are additive or multiplicative, would make a big difference depending at what point the skill check is made.

After all, (A+B)*C is not the same as A+(B*C) or (A*C)+B. And in all of these, checking after the first calculation will have a difference chance than after the second one.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

This is my observation:

You always gain when you hit, but never gain when you miss. This means: The better and faster you hit, the faster raises your skill. Thus, having a fast weapon and HCI helps in skill gain. I always use HCI jewelry for melee skill training.

However, skill bonus items work against skill gain, because the higher your skill the slower it will gain.

 

[Basara]

And people wonder why some people get confused with skill gain, when the weapon combat skill rules follow different rules than non-combat ones (except for Anatomy, which follows BOTH sets, depending if it's used actively, checked to determine damage, or checked as part of the Healing skill proc).