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New SA Client
- Thread starter Tinsil
- Start date
- Watchers 6
- Status
How is that possible exactly when the art in SA is the 2D stuff? You sure you didn't try KR and then expect SA would be exactly the same and not try it?
T
Trebr Drab
Guest
What I don't understand is this. I see other games, even one's that run on laptops, with better looking art. Ashen Empires (used to be Dransik) comes to mind.
Edited link
Don't get me wrong, some of their art is lacking too, but more in style than anything else. Note the sharpness and clarity.
This makes me wonder why UO can't look better.
I also have a big gripe about the animations of the avatars. That hunched over running, with elbows out, it just looks very dorky. I did notice the leg movement was good, as opposed to KR where the avatars looked even more dorky.
Honestly, I think I could accept SA if these things were fixed, maybe. It would be more acceptable if some of the dull, pastel water color look could be sharpened up. I'm very interested in the new UI.
Its not the exact same art. I have both clients up right now at my tower and there's quite a bit of difference in crispness and the colors are duller in the SA client. The parrots also look different and more blurry. Some of the placements are off.
The only thing I can commend on which is nice is the UI itself. Too bad it defaults to KR crappy view
I wish they didn't use the UOKR 3D models for mounts and characters, I still don't like those at all.
And man, wish they'd fix the pletora of bugs in UO2D in Vista64 and W7 64.
N
Nvnter
Guest
Just to show the level of attention. Why in SA does a fire beetle look like a "lemon with legs"?
Seeing a Blazed Cloth Covered Eye Sore riding a Lemon was almost enough for me to switch back by its self.
But I must say the Luna Bridge and the Parox Dungeon look nice. But navigating the spawn and the terrain at a quick pace was quite difficult and cost me much in insurance. The slime gump was so difficult to snag I had to do all names often.
I agree with another posters statement that the internal pack graphics made viewing difficult also.
The client crashes were inconvenient also.
Seeing a Blazed Cloth Covered Eye Sore riding a Lemon was almost enough for me to switch back by its self.
But I must say the Luna Bridge and the Parox Dungeon look nice. But navigating the spawn and the terrain at a quick pace was quite difficult and cost me much in insurance. The slime gump was so difficult to snag I had to do all names often.
I agree with another posters statement that the internal pack graphics made viewing difficult also.
The client crashes were inconvenient also.
Agreed. Or an options page where you pick which things you want KR style, and which you dont. KR this, but 2d that.. etc.
/Stands on Soap Box
Are we really having this discussion again? REALLY?!
Let's put technical issues aside for the moment (Bugs, stability, etc.). And let me repeat my stance spread across several forums and posts, and break it down again.
I am ALL IN FAVOR of UO moving forward. The client has to progress so that it can support new elements of gameplay and customization that the old 2D client simply will not allow. There. That's out of the way.
Now, can we please stop using the generic term of GRAPHICS? STOP USING THAT TERM! Start using terms that make sense and actually apply: RESOLUTION and STYLE.
For the supporters of KR (And again, I did try KR, I was in it's focus group, did my best to help make it better, and I tried to enjoy it, but ultimately did not adopt it. And I really liked the interface enhancements..), let's make certain this point is drilled into your heads: Players did not like the STYLE of KR. That's one of the reasons why they fell back to 2D STYLE with a whole new client, instead of continuing to make improvements to KR, again, technical issues aside. Players simply didn't adjust to it. When player say "Graphics don't matter", what they mean to say is RESOLUTION doesn't matter - They want the style of the world they love.
What KR had going for it is RESOLUTION. The new engine made it possible to show levels of detail that no client preceding it allowed. Fantastic.
Where it failed was STYLE. They COMPLETELY changed the look of the entire god damned world! That's an immersion breaker. That makes it FEEL like a completely different game. FEEL is not a technical term, but it is entirely applicable in this context. How a player FEELS about a game directly affects their interaction with it. I know it didn't FEEL right playing KR.
SA now has the opposite problem. Aside from the ground textures, it has the STYLE, but not the RESOLUTION. What do I mean? Look up the old artwork done by Saphireena (http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/hrc_unicorn.shtml). THAT is the classic UO STYLE with a higher RESOLUTION. It's the direction they SHOULD have gone. But ultimately, I would rather play a game with a lower RESOLUTION with the STYLE I like/enjoy/am accustomed to than a game with higher resolution and a style I abhor.
I'm getting pretty god damned tired of hearing the argument that people who didn't adopt KR did so because they were cheaters, troglodytes living in caves attached to an archaic form of entertainment that refused to update their PC's from the 1990's, or didn't want the game to move forward. They didn't adopt KR because for them, it was an INFERIOR CLIENT that didn't allow them to play the game the way they LIKE to play it, in a world that FEELS like the one they fell in love with. GOT THAT? INFERIOR.
New? Yes.
Higher resolution? Yes.
New features? Yes.
Superior to play and live in the world some of lived in for over a decade? HELL NO.
It didn't FEEL like UO, and it handled like a dead horse. It's TECHNICAL features were superior, but the way it played was INFERIOR for those of us who didn't adopt it.
Now the next argument I expect to hear is, "Well, if you use an application like UOAssist or UO Auto-Map, you're not playing the original client!"
Add-on: A device or unit added to equipment or a construction; anything added on.
Guess what? If you use a MOD of ANY kind, you aren't playing the ORIGINAL KR client either! The fact that the client ALLOWS these changes natively within the framework does NOT change the fact that an add-on can SIGNIFICANTLY change the way a game plays. Tamer Mods, Bitter Black, Item Intensity, ALL NOT INCLUDED WITH THE ORIGINAL CLIENT. It's an add-on. An easily built, free, highly-customizable add-on, but an add-on none the less. That's ALL UO ASSIST IS. It ADDS functionality that isn't included with the 2D client. It doesn't let you cheat in and of itself. Think of it as an interface enhancement.
Bottom line:
If you liked the KR STYLE, than good on you. I really hope at some point they give you the option to have it back again. But the simple fact of the matter is, most people didn't like it. When money talks, majority rules. They're trying to appeal to a larger base to help UO move forward. I'm sure at some point down the line, if there is a high enough demand for it, they will try to do so. Stop looking down on those who didn't like it. We're not stupid, we don't hate the game, and the reasonable among us don't want to see you crucified for liking KR.
And since I've taken a great deal of effort to weigh in on the KR side of things, let me make THIS statement to the other side of the fence: The Anti-New Client side.
2D Client is old. It can't support the things the devs want to do to keep UO moving forward and keep it interesting. It NEEDS to go away at some point.
I understand your attachment to things like UOAssist and the style, but as someone who has been involved with SA since the initial focus test (and the KR focus test) who is approaching it with an open mind, it's MUCH better than KR.
They're trying to give us the 2D style we've come to love, and if you give it an honest chance, the interface (while lacking SOME of the features of UOAssist and UOAutomap) has GREATLY improved.
Give it an honest effort, report the bugs, make it even better. And stop hammering on users of KR. They like things different than we do, but we all want the same thing: A better UO.
/Steps down from Soap Box.
Are we really having this discussion again? REALLY?!
Let's put technical issues aside for the moment (Bugs, stability, etc.). And let me repeat my stance spread across several forums and posts, and break it down again.
I am ALL IN FAVOR of UO moving forward. The client has to progress so that it can support new elements of gameplay and customization that the old 2D client simply will not allow. There. That's out of the way.
Now, can we please stop using the generic term of GRAPHICS? STOP USING THAT TERM! Start using terms that make sense and actually apply: RESOLUTION and STYLE.
For the supporters of KR (And again, I did try KR, I was in it's focus group, did my best to help make it better, and I tried to enjoy it, but ultimately did not adopt it. And I really liked the interface enhancements..), let's make certain this point is drilled into your heads: Players did not like the STYLE of KR. That's one of the reasons why they fell back to 2D STYLE with a whole new client, instead of continuing to make improvements to KR, again, technical issues aside. Players simply didn't adjust to it. When player say "Graphics don't matter", what they mean to say is RESOLUTION doesn't matter - They want the style of the world they love.
What KR had going for it is RESOLUTION. The new engine made it possible to show levels of detail that no client preceding it allowed. Fantastic.
Where it failed was STYLE. They COMPLETELY changed the look of the entire god damned world! That's an immersion breaker. That makes it FEEL like a completely different game. FEEL is not a technical term, but it is entirely applicable in this context. How a player FEELS about a game directly affects their interaction with it. I know it didn't FEEL right playing KR.
SA now has the opposite problem. Aside from the ground textures, it has the STYLE, but not the RESOLUTION. What do I mean? Look up the old artwork done by Saphireena (http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/hrc_unicorn.shtml). THAT is the classic UO STYLE with a higher RESOLUTION. It's the direction they SHOULD have gone. But ultimately, I would rather play a game with a lower RESOLUTION with the STYLE I like/enjoy/am accustomed to than a game with higher resolution and a style I abhor.
I'm getting pretty god damned tired of hearing the argument that people who didn't adopt KR did so because they were cheaters, troglodytes living in caves attached to an archaic form of entertainment that refused to update their PC's from the 1990's, or didn't want the game to move forward. They didn't adopt KR because for them, it was an INFERIOR CLIENT that didn't allow them to play the game the way they LIKE to play it, in a world that FEELS like the one they fell in love with. GOT THAT? INFERIOR.
New? Yes.
Higher resolution? Yes.
New features? Yes.
Superior to play and live in the world some of lived in for over a decade? HELL NO.
It didn't FEEL like UO, and it handled like a dead horse. It's TECHNICAL features were superior, but the way it played was INFERIOR for those of us who didn't adopt it.
Now the next argument I expect to hear is, "Well, if you use an application like UOAssist or UO Auto-Map, you're not playing the original client!"
Add-on: A device or unit added to equipment or a construction; anything added on.
Guess what? If you use a MOD of ANY kind, you aren't playing the ORIGINAL KR client either! The fact that the client ALLOWS these changes natively within the framework does NOT change the fact that an add-on can SIGNIFICANTLY change the way a game plays. Tamer Mods, Bitter Black, Item Intensity, ALL NOT INCLUDED WITH THE ORIGINAL CLIENT. It's an add-on. An easily built, free, highly-customizable add-on, but an add-on none the less. That's ALL UO ASSIST IS. It ADDS functionality that isn't included with the 2D client. It doesn't let you cheat in and of itself. Think of it as an interface enhancement.
Bottom line:
If you liked the KR STYLE, than good on you. I really hope at some point they give you the option to have it back again. But the simple fact of the matter is, most people didn't like it. When money talks, majority rules. They're trying to appeal to a larger base to help UO move forward. I'm sure at some point down the line, if there is a high enough demand for it, they will try to do so. Stop looking down on those who didn't like it. We're not stupid, we don't hate the game, and the reasonable among us don't want to see you crucified for liking KR.
And since I've taken a great deal of effort to weigh in on the KR side of things, let me make THIS statement to the other side of the fence: The Anti-New Client side.
2D Client is old. It can't support the things the devs want to do to keep UO moving forward and keep it interesting. It NEEDS to go away at some point.
I understand your attachment to things like UOAssist and the style, but as someone who has been involved with SA since the initial focus test (and the KR focus test) who is approaching it with an open mind, it's MUCH better than KR.
They're trying to give us the 2D style we've come to love, and if you give it an honest chance, the interface (while lacking SOME of the features of UOAssist and UOAutomap) has GREATLY improved.
Give it an honest effort, report the bugs, make it even better. And stop hammering on users of KR. They like things different than we do, but we all want the same thing: A better UO.
/Steps down from Soap Box.
O
Old Man of UO
Guest
I disagree with almost everything you posted, and I did read all of it, but this part I do agree with.
There just is no way the naysayers have had a decent trial of the SA beta in such a short time. Good, honest and constructive feedback is what will make a difference.
I have no problems with people who don't agree with me.
I do, however, have problems when people pontificate about the graphical virtues of KR by denouncing the vast majority of players who don't agree with them. I'm all for a higher resolution, but don't change they style. Don't change the world I loved. Make it BETTER, but don't radically change the way I see EVERYTHING in it.
Are the same people who make the statement "New, Higher resolution is better" also make the statment that Ultima IX was better than any Ultima before it? Every Xbox and PS3 game beats any game on any previous generation?
And I didn't say it in the last post, but Dermott does have a point. It IS low resolution 2D style.. They should have done better in that regard. I'd love a high resolution 2D style.
I do, however, have problems when people pontificate about the graphical virtues of KR by denouncing the vast majority of players who don't agree with them. I'm all for a higher resolution, but don't change they style. Don't change the world I loved. Make it BETTER, but don't radically change the way I see EVERYTHING in it.
Are the same people who make the statement "New, Higher resolution is better" also make the statment that Ultima IX was better than any Ultima before it? Every Xbox and PS3 game beats any game on any previous generation?
And I didn't say it in the last post, but Dermott does have a point. It IS low resolution 2D style.. They should have done better in that regard. I'd love a high resolution 2D style.
T
TheGrayGhost
Guest
^ HA! I was right lol. As I said in other posts I like SA due to the performance boost, functionality and better stability. KR looked better sure, but it crashed soooooo friggin much. Even with all the tweaks and work arounds it crashed sooooooo friggin much. And I have an amazingly high end machine when it comes to UO oO lol. I could play DarkFall Online, Age of Conan and watch a movie all at the same time without the performance dropping even slightly.
Again it's like a very nice looking car that's missing it's engine vs. an ok looking car with greater performance. I liked KR graphics, I am however more than willing to take the hit on graphics if it boost performance, functionality and stability.
And lets face it, if Graphics are your primary concern then UO is deffinetly the wrong game for you. DFO has better graphics, AoC has better graphics, Even WoW has better graphics. UO may not look as nice, but is a hell of a lot more fun despite the graphics.
Coldren, I think your long post summed it up well. While the KR art looks great too many items looked different than the original art, which in turn made it look like something other than UO. I truly believe that if all of the item art in KR looked like the original art (design-wise), then it would have had much greater acceptance. Hopefully the new SA client will be able to be easily upgraded with higher res versions of the same art.
C
Coppelia
Guest
Let's be clear and direct. SA client as an ehanced 2D client with 32-bit pixel art, I'm all for.
Just for the thousandth time, draw black outlines around items, it'll prevent the miserable blur that occurs in KR.
Secondly don't go too big on the mobile units, remember this game is tile based, the mob is only on one tile and if the graphics spread on several tiles it's uncomfortable to have to dig through it to reach that one tile to hit it. A few exceptions are ok, like the dragons (it's already the case in legacy client), just don't make every mob and his brother larger than... doors!
And finally, I didn't see SA client yet, but I hope you reworked the animations and the unnatural poses. Good luck to avoid sliding, etc.
And there's one thing I haven't an idea to fix it yet : it was already a problem with Third Dawn client, it's really strange to have everything very neat, cute, everything moving smoothly... and mobs moving one tile by one tile at "rest", everytime with the same foot going forward for example. Anyway, I don't know how it's acceptable in legacy client, probably because the animations have a lot less frames, but that shocked me in other clients. That makes mobs kinda robotic.
That's all, I hope something good will come out of this.
Just for the thousandth time, draw black outlines around items, it'll prevent the miserable blur that occurs in KR.
Secondly don't go too big on the mobile units, remember this game is tile based, the mob is only on one tile and if the graphics spread on several tiles it's uncomfortable to have to dig through it to reach that one tile to hit it. A few exceptions are ok, like the dragons (it's already the case in legacy client), just don't make every mob and his brother larger than... doors!
And finally, I didn't see SA client yet, but I hope you reworked the animations and the unnatural poses. Good luck to avoid sliding, etc.
And there's one thing I haven't an idea to fix it yet : it was already a problem with Third Dawn client, it's really strange to have everything very neat, cute, everything moving smoothly... and mobs moving one tile by one tile at "rest", everytime with the same foot going forward for example. Anyway, I don't know how it's acceptable in legacy client, probably because the animations have a lot less frames, but that shocked me in other clients. That makes mobs kinda robotic.
That's all, I hope something good will come out of this.
C
Corpsecrank
Guest
I wasn't impressed at all. The UI was abit better than KR as far as functionality goes and looks as well. But the biggest problem I have is the graphics.
It doesn't matter what settings you use the graphics look rough and feel like crap in general.
Unless you crank the frame rate up to 60 everything blurs while moving around and even at 60 it is still a tad blurred. I wish they supported 125 fps it would have ironed out movement significantly.
The objects in the game have NO smooth lines at all on any resolution at any zoom depth. Look at the edges of objects where smooth lines should occur and you will quickly notice that the lines are not smooth at all and because of that the graphics as a whole look very amateur.
If you zoom in and out you can see that there is no anti-aliasing going on and this would have fixed many of the issues with rough graphics. As you scale graphics they alias and pixelate this issue should have been looked at more in depth from the start. It is not to late to iron that issue out of this client though and I think that raising the max fps setting to 125 and adding better graphics smoothing options for more powerful machines could make this client pretty nice.
This really is a step in the right direction from where KR stood and could still be improved to make it a great and flexible client no matter what type of computer you have be it old or new. I still prefer the 2d client though for it's simplicity and classic graphics.
It doesn't matter what settings you use the graphics look rough and feel like crap in general.
Unless you crank the frame rate up to 60 everything blurs while moving around and even at 60 it is still a tad blurred. I wish they supported 125 fps it would have ironed out movement significantly.
The objects in the game have NO smooth lines at all on any resolution at any zoom depth. Look at the edges of objects where smooth lines should occur and you will quickly notice that the lines are not smooth at all and because of that the graphics as a whole look very amateur.
If you zoom in and out you can see that there is no anti-aliasing going on and this would have fixed many of the issues with rough graphics. As you scale graphics they alias and pixelate this issue should have been looked at more in depth from the start. It is not to late to iron that issue out of this client though and I think that raising the max fps setting to 125 and adding better graphics smoothing options for more powerful machines could make this client pretty nice.
This really is a step in the right direction from where KR stood and could still be improved to make it a great and flexible client no matter what type of computer you have be it old or new. I still prefer the 2d client though for it's simplicity and classic graphics.
No matter what they do without a box in the stores ea will never get players that they want ......
C
canary
Guest
How are you even allowed to have a job in this industry anymore? Your 'art' was so critically panned they had to revert to legacy graphics.
Great job you are doing.
M
Mairut
Guest
I've noticed some people saying they don't like 2d because it's too old looking(among other things), and 2d people dont like the 3d/kr whatever because the functionality(among other things) is missing.
How hard would it be for the Devs to make 3d/kr/whatever artwork that keeps things acting the same way they do in 2d?
I think I remember a thread where someone mentioned that this would require the coding to be completely redone, and that in itself is impossible because the old developers didn't leave notes in the coding or whatever it was for how the 2d functions.
Hmm...if they would stop trying to make new things after SA is released, and start working on a new code, we should have something that functions like 2d and looks nice like kr by... 2020 right?
Also...I think the KR graphics are pretty, but look a little too "bubbly" for me. I may give it a spin anywho just to see.
How hard would it be for the Devs to make 3d/kr/whatever artwork that keeps things acting the same way they do in 2d?
I think I remember a thread where someone mentioned that this would require the coding to be completely redone, and that in itself is impossible because the old developers didn't leave notes in the coding or whatever it was for how the 2d functions.
Hmm...if they would stop trying to make new things after SA is released, and start working on a new code, we should have something that functions like 2d and looks nice like kr by... 2020 right?
Also...I think the KR graphics are pretty, but look a little too "bubbly" for me. I may give it a spin anywho just to see.
...
There's still a chance to make a difference.
First off, if you're happy with the graphics in SA or 2d, then good for you. Enjoy the client of your choice. This thread is not for you.
If you claim to "not care about the graphics", then first of all why have you interjected in graphical debates and second of all, this thread is probably not for you.
This is NOT a debate thread because this is NOT an either/or situation. This is for an OPTION for people to have the graphical UO experience they desire.
Now, that call of civility is out of the way, if you come in here to debate the opinions of KR artwork, then just stop. There are and have been plenty of threads in which to do just that. Please do NOT derail this one.
Now... disclaimers out of the way...
Not happy with the current graphics in SA?
There is still time to make a difference. One of the quickest and easiest ways of getting better resolution artwork for SA is to add in the option of KR artwork. Currently, the KR client has the option for Legacy artwork, so simply reversing the situation would be a feasible and reasonable request.
SA is currently an upgrade for 2d, but a DOWNGRADE for KR. We can change that. SA SHOULD have a graphical setting for lower end systems and people who prefer the Legacy artwork. No problems there.
HOWEVER
SA should ALSO have a KR and high resolution setting as well. See the SA client has been reduced in graphical quality so that older systems can handle the client... but in the process, they have taken out the ability for people who have higher end systems and enjoy the game/world/life that is UO to be able to get the most out of their systems, to see artwork that is native to resolutions higher than 640x480.
The way to do this is to make noise. Use the Feedback form on UOherald.com, use the Bug Report option and request the option for KR artwork and higher resolution model settings. Put the request as part of your sig if needs be, post comments here and in Grimm's thread today. If you know someone who plays KR and enjoys it and doesn't read here, let them know to send in feedback as well.
I'm not trying to denigrate someone's graphical tastes, nor am I trying to take away the graphical style of the Legacy UO graphics. What I want is at the very least the OPTION to use the graphical advancements in resolution and style in SA instead of losing them to history (again) when KR is brought down. People need to realize that there are a good number of UO players who have spent the last 2 years playing in KR, who have optimized their system and made KR look VERY good and be very stable and playable.
Some day, as has already happened with the 3d client, people will ask what happened to the graphics of the KR client and some will wonder why the step was taken and them removed. That doesn't have to happen. Give us the option that if we like the KR art assets to be able to continue to use them.
For me personally, it would solve a LOT of my current issues with the SA client. It's not that I don't like the 'style' that comprises the Legacy graphics, it's that the lack of resolution and thus lack of scalability makes them distort and pixelate especially compared to KR graphics of the same artwork.
I don't want to remove people's ability to enjoy the Legacy artwork, I simply want artwork that looks good to me on my monitor. And I know there are people who want the same thing... Let's be heard.
There's still a chance to make a difference.
First off, if you're happy with the graphics in SA or 2d, then good for you. Enjoy the client of your choice. This thread is not for you.
If you claim to "not care about the graphics", then first of all why have you interjected in graphical debates and second of all, this thread is probably not for you.
This is NOT a debate thread because this is NOT an either/or situation. This is for an OPTION for people to have the graphical UO experience they desire.
Now, that call of civility is out of the way, if you come in here to debate the opinions of KR artwork, then just stop. There are and have been plenty of threads in which to do just that. Please do NOT derail this one.
Now... disclaimers out of the way...
Not happy with the current graphics in SA?
There is still time to make a difference. One of the quickest and easiest ways of getting better resolution artwork for SA is to add in the option of KR artwork. Currently, the KR client has the option for Legacy artwork, so simply reversing the situation would be a feasible and reasonable request.
SA is currently an upgrade for 2d, but a DOWNGRADE for KR. We can change that. SA SHOULD have a graphical setting for lower end systems and people who prefer the Legacy artwork. No problems there.
HOWEVER
SA should ALSO have a KR and high resolution setting as well. See the SA client has been reduced in graphical quality so that older systems can handle the client... but in the process, they have taken out the ability for people who have higher end systems and enjoy the game/world/life that is UO to be able to get the most out of their systems, to see artwork that is native to resolutions higher than 640x480.
The way to do this is to make noise. Use the Feedback form on UOherald.com, use the Bug Report option and request the option for KR artwork and higher resolution model settings. Put the request as part of your sig if needs be, post comments here and in Grimm's thread today. If you know someone who plays KR and enjoys it and doesn't read here, let them know to send in feedback as well.
I'm not trying to denigrate someone's graphical tastes, nor am I trying to take away the graphical style of the Legacy UO graphics. What I want is at the very least the OPTION to use the graphical advancements in resolution and style in SA instead of losing them to history (again) when KR is brought down. People need to realize that there are a good number of UO players who have spent the last 2 years playing in KR, who have optimized their system and made KR look VERY good and be very stable and playable.
Some day, as has already happened with the 3d client, people will ask what happened to the graphics of the KR client and some will wonder why the step was taken and them removed. That doesn't have to happen. Give us the option that if we like the KR art assets to be able to continue to use them.
For me personally, it would solve a LOT of my current issues with the SA client. It's not that I don't like the 'style' that comprises the Legacy graphics, it's that the lack of resolution and thus lack of scalability makes them distort and pixelate especially compared to KR graphics of the same artwork.
I don't want to remove people's ability to enjoy the Legacy artwork, I simply want artwork that looks good to me on my monitor. And I know there are people who want the same thing... Let's be heard.
L
Ludim
Guest
IDONTLIKEYOUI've noticed some people saying they don't like 2d because it's too old looking(among other things), and 2d people dont like the 3d/kr whatever because the functionality(among other things) is missing.
How hard would it be for the Devs to make 3d/kr/whatever artwork that keeps things acting the same way they do in 2d?
I think I remember a thread where someone mentioned that this would require the coding to be completely redone, and that in itself is impossible because the old developers didn't leave notes in the coding or whatever it was for how the 2d functions.
Hmm...if they would stop trying to make new things after SA is released, and start working on a new code, we should have something that functions like 2d and looks nice like kr by... 2020 right?
Also...I think the KR graphics are pretty, but look a little too "bubbly" for me. I may give it a spin anywho just to see.
K
Kiminality
Guest
Just to add a little official word into the thread, not to say whether I agree with it or not.
From IRC:
<Supreem> sorry magnus although a small percentage of our players liked the KR art... the majority of them rejected it
<Supreem> maybe someday we can bring it back as an optional patch
A bit over a week ago...
From IRC:
<Supreem> sorry magnus although a small percentage of our players liked the KR art... the majority of them rejected it
<Supreem> maybe someday we can bring it back as an optional patch
A bit over a week ago...
I'm of a mixed mind. I would very much like higher resolution art, but more important to me than resolution is *consistency* ... something in the old client should look the same in SA, just better.
The KR art is higher quality, but for reasons that confound me, when they made it, many items were changed so that they were no longer the same item at a higher resolution, but rather something that looked completely different but just had the same name. (my personal pet peeve were fishnets - I had carefully used these valued prizes of my adventures as square tiling for my fishing display and suddenly they were unrecognizable colored baseball plates)
So even though looking at old art again is another adjustment, personally I would be happier with a commitment to slowly, as time permits, create new art that replaced the old art at a higher resolution than I would be with just getting my KR graphics back.
I hate seeing all countless manhours of work that went into the KR art go to waste, but I'm also nervous about the devs having to split their attention between competing art sets.
The KR art is higher quality, but for reasons that confound me, when they made it, many items were changed so that they were no longer the same item at a higher resolution, but rather something that looked completely different but just had the same name. (my personal pet peeve were fishnets - I had carefully used these valued prizes of my adventures as square tiling for my fishing display and suddenly they were unrecognizable colored baseball plates)
So even though looking at old art again is another adjustment, personally I would be happier with a commitment to slowly, as time permits, create new art that replaced the old art at a higher resolution than I would be with just getting my KR graphics back.
I hate seeing all countless manhours of work that went into the KR art go to waste, but I'm also nervous about the devs having to split their attention between competing art sets.
I for one have been making quite a noise about this for months. (Note Kiminalitys quote) I hope that more people join in, it really would be a huge loss if those graphics were discarded.
Feedback in multiple places, bug reports in the client. General whining, done it all - and I hope something is done, because truly it is ridiculous how things are going graphics-wise with the SA client.
Feedback in multiple places, bug reports in the client. General whining, done it all - and I hope something is done, because truly it is ridiculous how things are going graphics-wise with the SA client.
...
Well, any new graphical additions would be the same (maybe a higher and lower resolution, but the same artwork to begin with), so that shouldn't be too big of an issue, but obviously the artwork/graphics/resolution in SA is a big issue, not only to me, but to quite a few given the reaction this weekend, so I want to give a sort of coordination to that and HOPEFULLY show the devs that the option would be very appreciated.
I don't expect everyone to use the option, I just want it to be available for those who do want it.
I think with that option, SA would give the best of both worlds in a single client and would be a TRUE upgrade.
Well, any new graphical additions would be the same (maybe a higher and lower resolution, but the same artwork to begin with), so that shouldn't be too big of an issue, but obviously the artwork/graphics/resolution in SA is a big issue, not only to me, but to quite a few given the reaction this weekend, so I want to give a sort of coordination to that and HOPEFULLY show the devs that the option would be very appreciated.
I don't expect everyone to use the option, I just want it to be available for those who do want it.
I think with that option, SA would give the best of both worlds in a single client and would be a TRUE upgrade.
I don't understand why what were asking for is such a big deal! 
I'm not a coder but I can't believe that it's going to be that hard for them to add in the artwork that already exists.
Hell have two SA Clients available for download:
SA Legacy and SA Reborn or whatever you want to call it (Someone think of something clever to call it). You don't even have to call it anything with the words KR in it because of the negative press it received. But it should available.
I'm not sure what more people can do than to come to Stratics and post their dissatisfaction. And honestly we shouldn't even be put in this situation as players.
As a big fan of UOKR I never thought for a moment that 2d Option should ever be taken away from the 2D fan playerbase.
I'd like to play the SA Client with the KR artwork. That would make me a happy camper for sure. If they leave UOKR on the table as an option then I have no gripe and I'll continue to use UOKR.
But if they shelf UOKR I'm not playing UO with those old graphics. It's not going to happen. I did that for 8 years or so and it just doesn't do it for me anymore. I don't want to but I will close my 4 accounts and move on if they take away my choice of options.
I'll try and forward as many people as possible here to support this cause. And honestly we shouldn't even be in this position. They should have made both available from the get go.
I'm not a coder but I can't believe that it's going to be that hard for them to add in the artwork that already exists.
Hell have two SA Clients available for download:
SA Legacy and SA Reborn or whatever you want to call it (Someone think of something clever to call it)
. You don't even have to call it anything with the words KR in it because of the negative press it received. But it should available.I'm not sure what more people can do than to come to Stratics and post their dissatisfaction. And honestly we shouldn't even be put in this situation as players.
As a big fan of UOKR I never thought for a moment that 2d Option should ever be taken away from the 2D fan playerbase.
I'd like to play the SA Client with the KR artwork. That would make me a happy camper for sure. If they leave UOKR on the table as an option then I have no gripe and I'll continue to use UOKR.
But if they shelf UOKR I'm not playing UO with those old graphics. It's not going to happen. I did that for 8 years or so and it just doesn't do it for me anymore. I don't want to but I will close my 4 accounts and move on if they take away my choice of options.
I'll try and forward as many people as possible here to support this cause. And honestly we shouldn't even be in this position. They should have made both available from the get go.
Cloak‡1318355 said:
You don't get it because you are already addicted to UO and don't need to be convinced to play this game. Congrats.
Now try and look at it from someone's point of view who has never played UO, or Ultima in general. If they did not research the product, or was even aware of the 15day trial, what do you think their first opinion will be?
Like it or not, UO will end at some point. Eventually the fanboys will slowly quit and at some point it will get to to a point where it's no longer financially viable to keep the service available, then how will you feel when the game you love closes down because they did absolutely NOTHING to attract new players?
There was a little more that made WoW a success. The "Warcraft" universe was way more successful then the "Ultima" universe, Blizzard is a better run company then EA (and they make better games) and finally, the customer support in WoW is typically fair-to-good, where UO has no customer support. I rarely see people whining about cheats and issues with customer service. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it is a way better service.
As mentioned, soon as I get a good price for my UO homes on ebay I'm out of here.
H
Heartseeker
Guest
S
Sabbath
Guest
It would certainly be nice to have an 'official' explanation as to why the graphics in the S.A. client are as pixelated as they are. Why are they are subpar to the 2D graphics (not in style but in quality)?
Draconi, Supreem, Grimm Omen, Cal...anyone who can comment as to the reasoning? I did see Grimm's comment in his thread from earlier today:
For the record, YES I agree with Dermott that an "option" should be available for the KR art. With that said, I would be willing to compromise for just the higher rez legacy graphics if this would create a situation (as noted by Maplestone) with "the devs having to split their attention between competing art sets."
Draconi, Supreem, Grimm Omen, Cal...anyone who can comment as to the reasoning? I did see Grimm's comment in his thread from earlier today:
But that doesn't answer the question as to why the Legacy art is pixelated to begin with. If it's something the devs consider an issue that they intend to fix then please make a statement to that effect.
For the record, YES I agree with Dermott that an "option" should be available for the KR art. With that said, I would be willing to compromise for just the higher rez legacy graphics if this would create a situation (as noted by Maplestone) with "the devs having to split their attention between competing art sets."
I fully support having the option of KR artwork in SA.
I said it when people were gun-ho about KR (KR or bust, KR or UO dies, Only cheaters and people who won't get with the times won't use KR, etc., etc.), and I'll stand by the statement now:
NO ONE wins if everyone can't play with the style of their choosing, for whatever reason. If the client can support both (and I suspect it probably can), I think a KR toggle is a wonderful option that should be pursued.
I'm inclined to agree with Maplestone, though. I'd rather see them work on stability and function first, then come around to artwork. First adding the KR option, and increasing the resolution of the classic 2D style. And I do wonder if they would have to remake any new SA art that we haven't seen yet in the KR style....
But still. I'm 100% on-board with a KR option.
I said it when people were gun-ho about KR (KR or bust, KR or UO dies, Only cheaters and people who won't get with the times won't use KR, etc., etc.), and I'll stand by the statement now:
NO ONE wins if everyone can't play with the style of their choosing, for whatever reason. If the client can support both (and I suspect it probably can), I think a KR toggle is a wonderful option that should be pursued.
I'm inclined to agree with Maplestone, though. I'd rather see them work on stability and function first, then come around to artwork. First adding the KR option, and increasing the resolution of the classic 2D style. And I do wonder if they would have to remake any new SA art that we haven't seen yet in the KR style....
But still. I'm 100% on-board with a KR option.
T
Thangorodrim
Guest
KR art was dropped for 'stability.' Post 75:
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1320671#post1320671
The disappointing drop in visual quality was not done for performance or to appease the unadaptable. Apparently, they cannot make it work.
I suspect that reversion to higher resolution textures will not happen for some time.
The avalanche has started, its too late for the pebbles to vote.
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1320671#post1320671
There you have it ...TheGrimmOmen said:
The disappointing drop in visual quality was not done for performance or to appease the unadaptable. Apparently, they cannot make it work.
I suspect that reversion to higher resolution textures will not happen for some time.
The avalanche has started, its too late for the pebbles to vote.
M
Mairut
Guest
Makes you wonder if they're doing this to get us 2d users out of 2d before they delete it
(......jk)
S
Sabbath
Guest
You nailed it friend! I'm pretty sure the Devs know this and can fix it. Devs? Hi...if you could go ahead and knock this out for us we would reeeealy appreciate it!
S
Sabbath
Guest
...
Grimm's post actually goes a long way in why I'm wanting higher resolution (models and KR artwork) as an OPTION.
Not everyone has a high end graphic card. BUT by the same token, there ARE people who have graphic cards that were made at the time KR went live and newer that handle KR very well and with a good amount of stability.
I also think the people who have those cards would rather have the ability to push their cards a bit and see what they can run and stay stable.
Basically, SA should have two graphical modes:
Low Resolution (or Legacy if you prefer) which is the current default mode. This should be the stanard SA mode to bring in the most people possible.
and
High Resolution (or KR if you prefer) which would be the optional setting which would use KR artwork and/or higher resolution Legacy artwork (whichever works better... personally, I would love KR house tiles and plants but Legacy items, but that'd be MUCH more difficult to rewrite the artwork files to handle partial toggles).
If people can run SA in the High Res mode in a manner that shows good stable performance, then they should have that option to do so.
In a disagreement and response to Grimm's post, I have to wonder if his definition of "optimize" is the same as mine because while it might perform well, outside of the "native" resolution, it is VERY rough visually and as such is not really "optimized" as a whole.
His statement is disheartening, but not one that I would say "Oh well, time to give up", but instead say "This is something to try and see if it will work".
Grimm's post actually goes a long way in why I'm wanting higher resolution (models and KR artwork) as an OPTION.
Not everyone has a high end graphic card. BUT by the same token, there ARE people who have graphic cards that were made at the time KR went live and newer that handle KR very well and with a good amount of stability.
I also think the people who have those cards would rather have the ability to push their cards a bit and see what they can run and stay stable.
Basically, SA should have two graphical modes:
Low Resolution (or Legacy if you prefer) which is the current default mode. This should be the stanard SA mode to bring in the most people possible.
and
High Resolution (or KR if you prefer) which would be the optional setting which would use KR artwork and/or higher resolution Legacy artwork (whichever works better... personally, I would love KR house tiles and plants but Legacy items, but that'd be MUCH more difficult to rewrite the artwork files to handle partial toggles).
If people can run SA in the High Res mode in a manner that shows good stable performance, then they should have that option to do so.
In a disagreement and response to Grimm's post, I have to wonder if his definition of "optimize" is the same as mine because while it might perform well, outside of the "native" resolution, it is VERY rough visually and as such is not really "optimized" as a whole.
His statement is disheartening, but not one that I would say "Oh well, time to give up", but instead say "This is something to try and see if it will work".
T
Tinsil
Guest
OP here. Finally tried SA. Looks like KR but with worse graphics... Pretty bad imo.. I've seen way better looking games made YEARS ago.
Oh well at least we have 2d!
Oh well at least we have 2d!
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Tinsil
Guest
Okay so I thought KR sucked, but I also think SA sucks. The point I will agree with you on is that KR looked MUCH better than SA, except the trees all blurred in a bit too much for me in KR.
Still I don't see any reason to switch clients.
Still I don't see any reason to switch clients.
I hate to admit it but I actually run much smoother and faster in SA/KR than I do in 2d.... If I could figure a good way to set up all my multitude of characters and import macros I'd probably eventually switch....
However the thought of redoing 50+ characters worth of macros just isn't appealing.
However the thought of redoing 50+ characters worth of macros just isn't appealing.
C
Corpsecrank
Guest
Like I was saying in another SA thread. The biggest problem I have is the graphics.
They are on the right track but the lack of anti-aliasing options and the lack of a higher maximum frame rate is what makes them bad and not the artwork it's self.
Without anti-aliasing the graphics look pretty rough and the further you zoom and scale them the worse the aliasing gets.
The frame rates are bogus though. The original client runs at 20 fps solid with no fluctuation and that is fine. But in the SA client the lower the frame rate gets the more everything around you blurs and jitters as you move. At 60 fps you get a playable frame rate. But what I don't understand is why we cannot go higher than 60 when all of the modern cards on the market will support well over 100 fps in a game like this one.
We aren't playing a full on 3d game which most cards can easily handle on moderate resolutions with a great frame rate.
So my suggestions would be to raise the maximum fps setting to 125 and add in some anti-aliasing options so that people with modern systems can take full advantage of the new client.
They are on the right track but the lack of anti-aliasing options and the lack of a higher maximum frame rate is what makes them bad and not the artwork it's self.
Without anti-aliasing the graphics look pretty rough and the further you zoom and scale them the worse the aliasing gets.
The frame rates are bogus though. The original client runs at 20 fps solid with no fluctuation and that is fine. But in the SA client the lower the frame rate gets the more everything around you blurs and jitters as you move. At 60 fps you get a playable frame rate. But what I don't understand is why we cannot go higher than 60 when all of the modern cards on the market will support well over 100 fps in a game like this one.
We aren't playing a full on 3d game which most cards can easily handle on moderate resolutions with a great frame rate.
So my suggestions would be to raise the maximum fps setting to 125 and add in some anti-aliasing options so that people with modern systems can take full advantage of the new client.
C
Corpsecrank
Guest
Even without AA we need a higher frame rate. Even low end cards are capable of more than 60 fps in a game like this. 125 as a maximum setting would be ideal really because everything would smooth right out at around 100.
But let me put it this way. If you have an x1650 or later you are way more than capable of pushing this game with a high frame rate. And the x1650 is getting pretty old these days.
If you want 125fps, go into My Documents/EA Games/Ultima Online Stygian Abyss/User Data/ and edit UserSettings.xml in notepad edit under <Graphics> '<Framerate max="60" />' to whatever you want. However it doesn't really fix anything in the game since there isn't enough animation frames to take advantage of it.
Funny, I never had any stability issues with KR.
But then again I'm not one of these fans who rejects KR because my Windows 95 system can't support it...
L
Ludim
Guest
2d for life!!!
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Sabbath
Guest
That was quite a sermon there Coldren. I have to agree strongly with your commentary about the issue being "style and resolution". Few people have said it but that is the proper way to describe what all the fuss is about regarding "graphics".
Personally I like the style of both KR and Legacy art - they're just different ways of showing the beautiful world of Sosaria that I love so much. So "style" is not really my concern. It's all about the resolution. If I could have a new interface (KR/SA) with Saphireena's high resolution legacy art I might never play another game again for the rest of my life.
At the very minimum, we need the resolution issue resolved in SA. If they are not (or can't) give us a KR option at least bring it back up to current legacy standards.
Personally I like the style of both KR and Legacy art - they're just different ways of showing the beautiful world of Sosaria that I love so much. So "style" is not really my concern. It's all about the resolution. If I could have a new interface (KR/SA) with Saphireena's high resolution legacy art I might never play another game again for the rest of my life.
At the very minimum, we need the resolution issue resolved in SA. If they are not (or can't) give us a KR option at least bring it back up to current legacy standards.
How about this, seeing as to how graphics mean so much to you and anyone that disagrees is automatically a "Lyer", you can always put your money were your mouth .... well hum keyboard is.
Why don't you petition them to add a consent form that you agree to pay an extra monthly subscription rate for these *cough* vastly superior graphics. The calculation would be, cost to maintain the art work, plus the cost to maintain the "legacy" code to allow it to be used *1.2 (a 20% return on the effort) / divided by the number of subscribers that have given express consent to pay for the "vastly superior art work". So if annually it cost 20,000 US for the maintenance and there were 1000 (consider there are NOT 1000 posters (well unique ones) on stratics, then that is only an additional 1.67 US well lets make it 2.00 (for the accounting and billing) US per month more.
I am quite sure you are not suggesting that the .... well larger group of lyers that do NOT think the KR art work is .... well worth anything, should PAY YOUR WAY FOR YOU .... are you?
I mean it isn't like you want to DIVERT HUMAN AND INANIMATE RESOURCES away from the ... larger groups interest for FREE AND PREVENTING THEM GETTING THINGS THEY THINK ARE REALLY USEFUL ... do you?
I can only assume your being some what humorous in KNOCKING a Beta Client as inadequate and .... well so bad you will "Quit UO". I mean you must be pulling the larger group of "lyers" legs ... I mean other wise you would just be being a petty hypocrite.
Just how much of this protest is "EGO/PRIDE OF AUTHORSHIP" rather than what is "Best for UO"?
Why don't you petition them to add a consent form that you agree to pay an extra monthly subscription rate for these *cough* vastly superior graphics. The calculation would be, cost to maintain the art work, plus the cost to maintain the "legacy" code to allow it to be used *1.2 (a 20% return on the effort) / divided by the number of subscribers that have given express consent to pay for the "vastly superior art work". So if annually it cost 20,000 US for the maintenance and there were 1000 (consider there are NOT 1000 posters (well unique ones) on stratics, then that is only an additional 1.67 US well lets make it 2.00 (for the accounting and billing) US per month more.
I am quite sure you are not suggesting that the .... well larger group of lyers that do NOT think the KR art work is .... well worth anything, should PAY YOUR WAY FOR YOU .... are you?
I mean it isn't like you want to DIVERT HUMAN AND INANIMATE RESOURCES away from the ... larger groups interest for FREE AND PREVENTING THEM GETTING THINGS THEY THINK ARE REALLY USEFUL ... do you?
I can only assume your being some what humorous in KNOCKING a Beta Client as inadequate and .... well so bad you will "Quit UO". I mean you must be pulling the larger group of "lyers" legs ... I mean other wise you would just be being a petty hypocrite.
Just how much of this protest is "EGO/PRIDE OF AUTHORSHIP" rather than what is "Best for UO"?
...
If you're aiming for the bullseye Enigma, it helps to be pointed in the right direction. The rambling post above addresses nothing about the actual topic at hand or accurately addresses any former post I have made on the subject either.
If you're aiming for the bullseye Enigma, it helps to be pointed in the right direction. The rambling post above addresses nothing about the actual topic at hand or accurately addresses any former post I have made on the subject either.
Really did you edit out the calling anyone that disagrees with as an automatic lyer?
It does not escape me that you certainly would want me pointed anywhere but at the "Bullseye", and to start the day care psycho babble verbiage.
Are you so naive as to think your request is a zero cost item? That there will be zero impact to the larger group of lyers?
Again, how much of this is "EGO/PRIDE OF AUTHORSHIP" vs "What is best for UO".
One would think there are choices ....
1) I am going to pick up my toys and go home ....
2) I spent a lot of time working on something that never gained popularity and so I will pick up my toys and go home ....
3) I will take what I learned and apply it to the new system and try to be a constructive force for the improvement/EVOLUTION of the new system.
One has choices.
I'm afraid I have to agree. Altough I may not have put it quite that way.
UO is best served by having one, and only one client. Two clients means more work to recode,patch and maintain as new content is added and therefore a greater strain on resources that could be put to better use.
However ... since the original "3d" it has become widely accepted that we are a 2 client game with "2d" being the preffered option of the masses and "3d", KR, and now SA being the alternative client for the minority who wish to use it.
I'm ok with that. However what you are suggesting here in effect brings in a 3rd client to maintain, and that can only be bad for UO as a whole.
KR has been a failure. That is fact. The fact being that it is being replaced after such a short time without getting even close to the user base that EA hoped. I say NO to any KR graphical element to the SA client. Let it die.
Z
Zodia
Guest
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. We do not need a further splintering. The Devs workload would be increased for no gain.
There is a reason KR was abandoned so quickly: the numbers don't lie. A tiny tiny portion of the user base liked KR. Were talking less than 2% is what I have heard were using it.
Less than 2% of the user base and you want to spend vast amounts of time and resources to resurrect a dead client? No. Just no.
Kr is dead. Let it die.
Z
Zodia
Guest
(from Coldren's link)
OMFG YES PLEASE. Hire this person! NOW!
This is the UO of my dreams -- 2D graphics, but in hi-res. Same style, same look, just hi-res.
A
AesSedai
Guest
- I am completely for this (superior graphics ~option~), as a future application...
We know they have had the art. We know they need to adjust the ratios of some of it, and fine tune some of it too. A toggle option doesn't seem unrealistic at all, when considering all of the other variables they have willingly worked with in the past ~12 yrs.
I respect the reasoning for the Legacy graphics' implementation; and I will still hope for improvement re: giving UO an updated look (so much of KR's graphics were a massive improvement, to me, from Legacy. Yet, many were less than Legacy, thus disappointing. I will gladly offer details, yet I am confident many have already been delivered to EA; including many from me personally).
(I do believe that evolving the graphics are necessary for UO's future. Although I feel the functionality, that they seem to be working on now, is more important... Foundations are key to building... the future)
Scary thought: People will be playing true 3D~hologram games in a few years...
I do love technology... but that saddens me, immensely (& not at all because of the lack of quality the big companies sacrifice in order to push 'the envelope' &/or short-term commerce).
- There were trade-offs involved, apparently.
We know they have had the art. We know they need to adjust the ratios of some of it, and fine tune some of it too. A toggle option doesn't seem unrealistic at all, when considering all of the other variables they have willingly worked with in the past ~12 yrs.
I respect the reasoning for the Legacy graphics' implementation; and I will still hope for improvement re: giving UO an updated look (so much of KR's graphics were a massive improvement, to me, from Legacy. Yet, many were less than Legacy, thus disappointing. I will gladly offer details, yet I am confident many have already been delivered to EA; including many from me personally).
(I do believe that evolving the graphics are necessary for UO's future. Although I feel the functionality, that they seem to be working on now, is more important... Foundations are key to building... the future)
Scary thought: People will be playing true 3D~hologram games in a few years...
I do love technology... but that saddens me, immensely (& not at all because of the lack of quality the big companies sacrifice in order to push 'the envelope' &/or short-term commerce
).- Status