Should UO Use PunkBuster to Stop Cheats?

[Sweeney]

Read this before commenting.

http://www.uo.com/punkbuster_faq.html

[edit] And if you allow cookies, your privacy is already being violated. And yes I'm sure this may be a repost from before my time.. but there are so many threads complaining of cheating, and if this app does what is says, it can solve 95% of these problems.[/edit]

 

[Cetric]

do it up, i'd die for punk buster, these people are reatarded who think their privacy is violated.

 

[Lord Gareth]

They wont do it. They would lose to much $$ for banning accts

 

[Ender]

do it up, i'd die for punk buster, these people are reatarded who think their privacy is violated.

This, there is absolutely NO privacy violation from using Punkbuster. Basically every major online FPS game uses it nowadays, and you never hear about anything wrong with it. You know why? Because there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Sweeney]

They wont do it. They would lose to much $$ for banning accts

That is so cynical.. reminds me of my drunken posts.

 

[Diomedes Artega]

Have to say if it is as effective as some games I have played, I am all for it and see zero problem with it.

As far as anyone who thinks it is a privacy issue...this has been discussed many times before.

*These types of programs detect what programs you are using. They aren't phishing for information like some adware programs do.

Think of it like a high tech windows manager. Frankly I hope it works as well or better than GameGuard.

Basically anyways...what is the concern if you aren't using any suspect programs. There should be...NO concern then.

If the shoe fits wear it. If it doesn't than no worries.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I don't know how PunkBuster works technically. I never would install a software on my computer which forces me to allow Cookies or which takes screenshots without my knowledge (even if it is only the gaming window).

It is a principle of someone who has been stripped off many of his rights and freedoms already by his current government.

 

[Sweeney]

I don't know how PunkBuster works technically. I never would install a software on my computer which forces me to allow Cookies or which takes screenshots without my knowledge (even if it is only the gaming window).

It is a principle of someone who has been stripped off many of his rights and freedoms already by his current government.

Did you read the FAQ linked in the OP?

[edit] And, if it was the only sure-way to detect cheap programs? Because, don't kid yourself.. there is no non-invasive way to detect them, aside from everyday updates to the data encryption (which is possible, but very cumbersome). I'm against external watch-dog programs as well, but if I have to choose between losing either the scripters/speedhackers or my internet anonymity, I'd choose to lose my anonymity (sounds eerily like some USA issues over the past decade). [/edit]

 

[Gellor]

No... and not entirely for privacy issues.

With EA's past record for "banning" people, they'd end up banning people for having porn on their computer(slight exaggeration but not by much)

Plus with another program to eat up memory and UO with its memory leak, UO would run at a snails pace.

As someone mentioned, even if EA was able to ban every last cheater, there wouldn't be enough subscriptions left to sustain uo. Not enough people left over cheating that would come back to make up the difference.

As for the "if you aren't a cheater, you have nothing to worry about", how about the same logic applied to your life: "if you aren't a criminal, you won't mind the cops coming into your house".

At least we get our once every three month Punkbuster post. :loser:

 

[Sweeney]

No... and not entirely for privacy issues.

With EA's past record for "banning" people, they'd end up banning people for having porn on their computer(slight exaggeration but not by much)

Plus with another program to eat up memory and UO with its memory leak, UO would run at a snails pace.

As someone mentioned, even if EA was able to ban every last cheater, there wouldn't be enough subscriptions left to sustain uo. Not enough people left over cheating that would come back to make up the difference.

As for the "if you aren't a cheater, you have nothing to worry about", how about the same logic applied to your life: "if you aren't a criminal, you won't mind the cops coming into your house".

At least we get our once every three month Punkbuster post. :loser:

If I ran this game I'd rather see it die than admit "cheaters keep us in business.." your logic begs for cheaters. Makes you wonder how many accounts were closed because of cheaters and how many would never have quit if such measures were implemented.

Your privacy on the internet is an illusion.. from cookies to search engines. You know every website, every online program.. can record your IP address. You're already a victim.

You'd love to believe there's an amazing conspiracy theory.. but it's not there.

 

[popps]

Wasn't this already discussed quite extensively years back ??

 

[JC the Builder]

I hope everyone who voted no didn't sign up for the Stygian Abyss beta, which has the same "privacy violating" power than Punkbuster does.

5.5 Consent to Monitor. DURING ITS OPERATION, THE GAME MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH THE GAME. AN "UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM" AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY "ADDON", "MOD", "HACK", "TRAINER", OR "CHEAT" THAT IN EA'S SOLE DETERMINATION: (I) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE: (II) ALLOWS USERS TO MODIFY OR HACK THE GAME INTERFACE, ENVIRONMENT, AND /OR EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY NOT EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED BY EA: OR (III) INTERCEPTS, "MINES", OR OTHERWISE COLLECTS INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THE GAME. IN THE EVENT THAT THE GAME DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, THE GAME MAY (A) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO EA, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND /OR (B) EA MAY EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER.

Oh my. Perhaps Punkbuster is integrated into the new Stygian Abyss client. That would be why such a clause would be necessary.

 

[Sweeney]

I hope everyone who voted no didn't sign up for the Stygian Abyss beta, which has the same "privacy violating" power than Punkbuster does.



Oh my. Perhaps Punkbuster is integrated into the new Stygian Abyss client. That would be why such a clause would be necessary.

Very nice info. I'd love to see how many people will quit over this.. they're either super-paranoid (but then why play a game with the same account info everytime?, or the ones these measures are aimed to deter.)

If this works out.. I look forward to people returning who got sick of the cheats and hacks.

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

Hmm, did I cause this?

Yes.

To my question and to the topic.

 

[Dor of Sonoma]

Short answer: NO !

 

[Sweeney]

Hmm, did I cause this?

Yes.

To my question and to the topic.

Your post (the link actually) gave me the motivation to silence the criticism of cheats and hacks with this post and ultimatum.. either support PunkBuster (or any other like-minded program) or quit complaining about cheats and hacks.

You cannot have it both ways. Read the FAQ!!!!!

 

[Diomedes Artega]

Very nice info. I'd love to see how many people will quit over this.. they're either super-paranoid (but then why play a game with the same account info everytime?, or the ones these measures are aimed to deter.)

If this works out.. I look forward to people returning who got sick of the cheats and hacks.

I look forward to those same people returning as well.

I don't know how much resources Punkbuster uses, but with GameGuard on Lineage II...it is very little. Instead of hypothetically debating about whether 1 program will hurt you so you can't play, examine what files are running on your computer instead.

Either that or upgrade your computer. In fact I just double-checked the system resources that GameGuard uses. UP to 10 MB. And, you're worried about that? Additionally, I highly doubt UO will die due to the implementation of this program. Many people I know quit UO due to the hacking and cheating. I'm sure others could attest to the same thing.

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

Im not gonna edit my post because I need another post .....*sarcasm*


For those that dont want PB...Why? Because it steals ALL your Personal info
Ive played many PB games....my personal info is intact. No CC fraud...no identity theft. Nothing.

Explain.

All it does it stop cheats.



EDIT: Sweeney
It was a sarcastic joke. Thats my kinda humor Im glad you made this thread. It shows the real players from the ones that dont care.

 

[Diomedes Artega]

Im not gonna edit my post because I need another post .....*sarcasm*


For those that dont want PB...Why? Because it steals ALL your Personal info
Ive played many PB games....my personal info is intact. No CC fraud...no identity theft. Nothing.

Explain.

All it does it stop cheats.

Exactly, and that is what a percentage of people don't understand.

This is what Gameguard does and all it does:

* Hide the game application process.
* Monitor the entire memory range.
* Terminate specific applications without the user consent.
* Block specific calls to DirectX or the Windows API.

I did read the FAQ, but I suspect it will run in a similar type of fashion. I see little as far as what privacy is being invaded upon.

 

[UOKaiser]

Other than it's bypassable it will be completly useless for uo.
So complete no

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

Other than it's bypassable it will be completly useless for uo.
So complete no

Hmm, so you cheat?

Its not easy if you are running public hacks. Trust me.

I understand why you say no. :loser:

 

[Sweeney]

Other than it's bypassable it will be completly useless for uo.
So complete no

Why vote no then if you can bypass it? That's silly.

 

[JC the Builder]

Other than it's bypassable it will be completly useless for uo.

Even if someone manages to bypass it, they always run the risk of that being detected. Punkbuster is updated continuously, even more than UO is. It is in use for a couple dozen games and has worked spectacularly there.

There is no doubt about it, cheating in UO today is a condition of the fact that the developers don't have the tools to deal with it. If Punkbuster or something similar was implemented, it would drop like a rock. If you can get away with something 100% of the time then there is no risk. If there is even a 1% chance at getting caught then a lot of people won't risk it.

 

[UOKaiser]

Why vote no then if you can bypass it? That's silly.

Why vote yes to seem like youre hiding the truth. LoL it goes both ways.

 

[Sweeney]

I hardly ever make polls.. I wish I would have made the names visible, but I didn't readily see the option.

 

[UOKaiser]

Even if someone manages to bypass it, they always run the risk of that being detected. Punkbuster is updated continuously, even more than UO is. It is in use for a couple dozen games and has worked spectacularly there.

Heres the main thing. Would you agree that in order for punk buster to be effective it will need to know the cheat program?

 

[Petra Fyde]

Not being particularly computer savvy, can I say that, on the surface, the SA agreement is much more acceptable than punkbuster's? It's accessing RAM, not the entire contents of our hard drive and it's running within the game, not as an additional process behind. I'm probably missing something there, but as an ignorant layman, I prefer the EA version.

 

[Sweeney]

Heres the main thing. Would you agree that in order for punk buster to be effective it will need to know the cheat program?

About the same as an anti-virus program needing to know the virus eh?

 

[UOKaiser]

About the same as an anti-virus program needing to know the virus eh?

Ya actually a anti-virus needs to know the known patterns of a malaware-virus-spyware-trojan. Many times false positives are made so the company sends a request to the anti-virus company for removal. But anyway thats something else. As I come to know it a program can be made that will interact with youre mouse to run certain movements if needed. The programs that interact with the data stream and UO would most likley cease. But programs that are not known can't be stoped. Thats where realeasing the source code helps with. As it will be a different version for every programmer and they will not share.
Haven't read is punkbuster compatible with linux?

 

[Diomedes Artega]

Heres the main thing. Would you agree that in order for punk buster to be effective it will need to know the cheat program?

About the same as an anti-virus program needing to know the virus eh?

Yes that is why it runs in the background, in a similar fashion that your task manager would.

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

Haven't read is punkbuster compatible with linux?

Yes it is.

 

[Diomedes Artega]

Ya actually a anti-virus needs to know the known patterns of a malaware-virus-spyware-trojan. Many times false positives are made so the company sends a request to the anti-virus company for removal. But anyway thats something else. As I come to know it a program can be made that will interact with youre mouse to run certain movements if needed. The programs that interact with the data stream and UO would most likley cease. But programs that are not known can't be stoped. Thats where realeasing the source code helps with. As it will be a different version for every programmer and they will not share.
Haven't read is punkbuster compatible with linux?

That's why games like Lineage II still have issues. Mostly with automated BOT's who kill mobs and collect gold. That is why the developer's made a report the BOT button. The GM's then investigate the suspected player. The feature does no good though if the real-life player does not use it.

 

[UOKaiser]

Hmm, so you cheat?

Its not easy if you are running public hacks. Trust me.

I understand why you say no. :loser:

There's no true hacking in UO server unlike wow where people have hacked the server. Though if someone did hack UO server side they will be flying over oceans, Making wall hacks like wow had, moving around the world in a sec,instant kills etc...

 

[Sweeney]

There's no true hacking in UO server unlike wow where people have hacked the server. Though if someone did hack UO server side they will be flying over oceans, Making wall hacks like wow had moving around the world in a sec,instant kills etc...

You just admitted that client-side solutions are needed. PunkBuster is the main answer (maybe not the only one). Hypocrite much?

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

There's no true hacking in UO server unlike wow where people have hacked the server. Though if someone did hack UO server side they will be flying over oceans, Making wall hacks like wow had, moving around the world in a sec,instant kills etc...

Ok and.....your point?

 

[DHMagicMan_1]

I don't see any REASONABLE downside.

Anyone who doesn't run any banned probrams have any problems with making UO better for everyone?

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

A significant portion of the people who are against punkbuster are quite frankly people who cheat in UO to make $$

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

I don't see any REASONABLE downside.

Anyone who doesn't run any banned probrams have any problems with making UO better for everyone?

QFT.

Cheaters dont want their account banned.
Period.
They been doing it for years. Would suck to lose it.

 

[DHMagicMan_1]

I don't see any REASONABLE downside.

Anyone who doesn't run any banned probrams have any problems with making UO better for everyone?

QFT.

Cheaters dont want their account banned.
Period.
They been doing it for years. Would suck to lose it.

By that reasoning, we should just ignore the "No" votes.

I'm good with that.

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

It amazes me how many people are for cheating.

The poll should be 100% for PB or any other cheat deterrent.

I guess they check the forums to see what they can and cannot do.

 

[UOKaiser]

Alot of you are weird those who don't agree with you are automatic cheaters lol. I guess got to look at that poll then all those that voted no I assume would leave as well as a uoss editor because there cheaters. So if the cheaters out number the non cheaters and as you say punkbuster works even though people can use microsoft as a scripting program lol "visual basic" another simple one I can think about then ea will lose alot of subscriptions just enough to close the servers if you use the poll as a average calculation . Thats of course you follow the thought that everyone who says no to punkbuster are cheaters.
I just don't like programs taking pictures of my computer while playing a game and trading my stocks or whatever other finanacial transaction I use. Let alone consuming more resources that are not needed for what to stop That uo assist alternative that we know about. It' won't stop the programs that don't interact with uo data stream which I believe its the scripting programs.

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

umm its not that difficult to skew an online poll, you know? You are never going to get a favorable result on this topic because there are hundreds of thousands of dollars involved.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Oki, convince me. I don't cheat, there's nothing on my pc that EA would have any problem with, however Punkbuster says run no other programs but the game and PB. I run icq, I need to keep in touch with Stratics staff. I run Firefox, I park up periodically in game to briefly check for problems on the boards, I run irc. I'm an IRCop.
It is my impression that with punk buster I would be faced with a choice of playing UO or working as a volunteer on Stratics. I couldn't integrate the two as I do now, tabbing back and forth. I couldn't be contacted if a problem came up when I was in game.

 

[Sweeney]

Oki, convince me. I don't cheat, there's nothing on my pc that EA would have any problem with, however Punkbuster says run no other programs but the game and PB. I run icq, I need to keep in touch with Stratics staff. I run Firefox, I park up periodically in game to briefly check for problems on the boards, I run irc. I'm an IRCop.
It is my impression that with punk buster I would be faced with a choice of playing UO or working as a volunteer on Stratics. I couldn't integrate the two as I do now, tabbing back and forth. I couldn't be contacted if a problem came up when I was in game.

Read the FAQ.. ONLY programs known (or with the same patterns) to interfere with UO would be flagged. Web browsers, ICQ, etc would not be.

I don't know the tolerance of PB but considering it is used in many many other games, I doubt it is high enough to cause problems.

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

Oki, convince me. I don't cheat, there's nothing on my pc that EA would have any problem with, however Punkbuster says run no other programs but the game and PB. I run icq, I need to keep in touch with Stratics staff. I run Firefox, I park up periodically in game to briefly check for problems on the boards, I run irc. I'm an IRCop.
It is my impression that with punk buster I would be faced with a choice of playing UO or working as a volunteer on Stratics. I couldn't integrate the two as I do now, tabbing back and forth. I couldn't be contacted if a problem came up when I was in game.

You wouldnt have problems

Ive played on PB servers for years. Im was in The Warfare League (TWL) for AA (Americas Army).

If you dont run illegal programs you dont need to worry about anything. Very, Very few false positives. They keep logs. If its false it can be overturned.

 

[UOKaiser]

Oki, convince me. I don't cheat, there's nothing on my pc that EA would have any problem with, however Punkbuster says run no other programs but the game and PB. I run icq, I need to keep in touch with Stratics staff. I run Firefox, I park up periodically in game to briefly check for problems on the boards, I run irc. I'm an IRCop.
It is my impression that with punk buster I would be faced with a choice of playing UO or working as a volunteer on Stratics. I couldn't integrate the two as I do now, tabbing back and forth. I couldn't be contacted if a problem came up when I was in game.

WoW I didn't read that part it actually says no other programs but the game and pb lol thats insane!!

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

WoW I didn't read that part it actually says no other programs but the game and pb lol thats insane!!

LMAO.

Really.
You fail at propaganda.

Learn to read.

 

[UOKaiser]

LMAO.

Really.
You fail at propaganda.

Learn to read.

Why you looking for a argument? I know what I know. So if one day very unlikly they actually implement punkbuster I hope these posts are still around so I can say I told you so.

 

[Whinemaker]

It's accessing RAM, not the entire contents of our hard drive and it's running within the game, not as an additional process behind.

I thought that's exactly what Punk Buster does, accesses just the RAM instead of the entire contents of your hard drive. Granted it's a separate background process, but it's not like it starts up on its own without your knowledge. I'd probably worry more about those internet browser toolbars than PB.

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

Why you looking for a argument? I know what I know. So if one day very unlikly they actually implement punkbuster I hope these posts are still around so I can say I told you so.

Because I want an argument

They may not implement it...but I know a hell of a lot more about PB than you do. Ill keep my cat in the bag for now.....

But tell me why a cheat deterrent should not be in UO? Please explain.