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If there is ANYTHING in PvP that needs an immediate fix

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
By "Gimplate" I am not really sure what you mean. Is that pretty much a template you don't use yourself and is therefore considered 'gimp'?
When I'm referring to tamers I think the best example of gimplates are those who ditch vet and replace it with something like ninjitsu or whatever the skill of the moment should happen to be. It's hard to nail down a specific definition, but for me it's leaving out a skill you'd normally put on a template so you can fit something uber in its place.

I think you are dead wrong about the effect that nerfing all casting creatures would have on PvM. It's all pretty much too easy with too little risk now. The reason most players die to mobs anymore is spell chaining, and missing a heal or something. Peerless and Champs are different, but I just don't see how nerfing regular mobs is a good idea. Archers and mages would pretty much become completely invulnerable in PvM if mobs had to follow player casting rules.
Well I'd kinda expect the devs would buff something else up to compensate for changing monster casting. But as I said before, it's not my first choice for balancing. I'd say that the first lines of attack should be to stop logging out from saving a pet and making vet required for bonding. Those 2 things would knock out the templates that don't have vet and seem to be the worst offenders just now. Then work on what's necessary from there. Otherwise the gimplate tamer is still going to be stronger than his fellow tamers because he can safely remove vet from his template. No matter what you change elsewhere, an extra skill is going to put the gimplate a chunk above tamers who have the real skills to handle their pets. I think that's a crazy situation ;)

Again, I don't see the purpose in breaking PvM to fix PvP, when the easier solution is to just cap all damage in PvP. That pretty much stops the whining because no one can say 'Her dragon did 80 pts of damage to me, while I could only do 60 pts of damage to her'. It becomes 'we did 35 damage to each other' and no one can complain. Well, there will still be people complaining because none of this does anything to address ganking, speedhacks, script-farmed gold bought weapons and armor, stump hacks, etc. etc.
Well, I've said why I'm not really keen on a cap. I don't want to break PvM for PvP, I just want to see the problem tamers dealt with once and for all. I do think it'll be really quite odd if all pets were capped the same regardless of how powerful they are for PvM. And folks new to PvP will be wondering why their pets are suddenly doing nothing to a PvPer who attacked them. I think that system will be very awkward to work with. The problem from a non tamer's perspective isn't that pets do variable amounts of damage, it's several pets specifically which they feel need to be toned down.

But hey, like I said, I don't PvP much anymore, and if the devs cave in and make tamers useless in PvP, I just won't PvP that much less. No worries. I can find other things to do. I just don't want them F'ing up taming in general because a few so-called 'l33t' PvPers got their butts handed to them by a few tamers.
Well as I've said plenty in this post, why would I, with 7 tamers, try and mess up the future of my favourite templates? I'm not suggesting anyting that will mess up taming for the majority of tamers, because I'm in that group myself. But at the same time, I realise that as with the rune beetle, some pets are in need of change and I accept that if it makes the game better for PvPing. There's no fun for a tamer who PvPs if there are no folks to fight with. I certainly don't want to play tamer v tamer ;)

Wenchy
 

ATLPvPer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
i dont agree that the range on thier breath weapon is broken personally, there is just a very long delay on it, so its actually being casted on you in range and going off when you're far away. a pvp cap on it would completely nullify the issue with this.
Again, this is false.

A pet chooses to target you while on screen for ANY spell. Once it has seen you on screen, it has you on target. Then it queries the spell and you are off screen. Just as a player does with a spell, but we can't hit someone who isn't in our range or line of sight.
A pet casts the spells, queries the target, and doesn't perform the rang or line of sight check. Multiple times I have been hit with a lightning while off the screen, on the other side of a house, or while I was hidden.

THIS is what needs a fix and soon.
 

burdensrise

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
1) Remove bleed/Fireball move

or..

Set a pvp pet damage cap on all servers @20 points of damage.

As stated earlier in this thread by many players. These things have been overpowered sense the day they were released. They have ruined this game for so many players, and they have been stated in reasons for leaving UO by 4 out of 5 Siege Perilous players. It is time for a change now. I think that pet pvp needs to be nerfed in all not just dragons, a pet pvp damage cap to pvp still could fix this game.
 

Harlequin

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Actually, I ask only that the current spell casting mechanics from monsters be corrected as it seems to be skipping a couple of steps.

See if it provides a measure of balance first, if not, then look at damage caps or inversely - increased player hp.
 

T'Challa

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
and they have been stated in reasons for leaving UO by 4 out of 5 Siege Perilous players.
99% of all statistics are pulled out of someone's butt <---like that one

However, since you have no way of knowing the true numbers and reasons why those players left, I'm gonna call that statistic butt-born.

Two of the best ideas I've seen in this thread: Make stealthing tamers require herding to have a pet follow them, or simply cull out the delayed casting. I believe Harlequin is right, mobiles aren't going through the range check for spells, and never, ever have...I think it is somehow related to the fact that mobiles cast as if from scrolls, i.e. 2 circles above their actual skill level.
 
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archite666

Guest
I agree with those ideas but a greater dragon still needs his 35 hit +bleed+firebreath nerfed.
 
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archite666

Guest
I think we should come together under a common idea and submit feedback, and FoF to get some answers on this.
 

Widow Maker

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Be careful what you wish for. If you look at the overall picture, as much as I hate to say this, tamers and GDs/etc are the only thing keeping other vastly overpowered templates in check.

I dont believe much of anything needs nerfing right now. Most templates have at least 1 or 2 grossly overpowered abilities right now and they are equalizing themselves out.

If you have an issue with just the tamer template? ...Use the common exploit out there and use a blue bard in GZ to completely negate them. I have a red bard mage/archer that simply drops any tamer/Pet out there that dares to venture out of the GZ. Of course, I am not able to discord pets in the GZ like blue bards can :) I guess when a blue does it, it is a good thing...rofl!

Drop the nerf stick. Fix exploits instead.

This is one of the longest WHINER/EMO threads I have seen in some time. Way to go!!
 
L

Larry

Guest
Actually, in today's PvP, I think being the game longer puts you somewhat at a disadvantage.

Anyway...it was fun discussing with you all...but given that some people can't seem to just discuss things and have a thick skin, and have to go reporting people's posts and crying to nanny and all that, I guess I am done with this thread for good this time.

Have fun with it.
What do you expect when your argument is "Tamers are fine because sometimes I die in PvP."
 
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archite666

Guest
Be careful what you wish for. If you look at the overall picture, as much as I hate to say this, tamers and GDs/etc are the only thing keeping other vastly overpowered templates in check.

I dont believe much of anything needs nerfing right now. Most templates have at least 1 or 2 grossly overpowered abilities right now and they are equalizing themselves out.

If you have an issue with just the tamer template? ...Use the common exploit out there and use a blue bard in GZ to completely negate them. I have a red bard mage/archer that simply drops any tamer/Pet out there that dares to venture out of the GZ. Of course, I am not able to discord pets in the GZ like blue bards can :) I guess when a blue does it, it is a good thing...rofl!

Drop the nerf stick. Fix exploits instead.

This is one of the longest WHINER/EMO threads I have seen in some time. Way to go!!
have you read any of this thread? No? I didnt think so.

Thanks for stopping by but please read before posting.

KK? Thanks.
 

Widow Maker

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Bah..I apologize for your lack of comprehension.

This entire thread has turned into nerf Tamer thread...like hundreds of others before it. How boring and no way am I going to read every post here.

You have no desire or concept as to really fixing the PvP world. You are just whining about a template or something you, personally, have trouble with.

Guess what....the majority of PvPers out there do not have trouble with much of anything right now. Sure, we complain about getting killed by this and that, Yew gate huggers, turtle guilds at spawns and on and on. BUT...it is also what given degrees of excitement, keeps us around and those smarter than the average bear fully accept it and play within it every day with a smile on our face.

YOU are in the minority and trying to further your own personal views. You DO NOT speak for the PvP community. YOU speak for YOURSELF only.

I am a 12 year UO PvPer and your views definitely do not coincide with mine or any of the hundreds of other PvPers I play with every day.

Sorry to burst your self induced little mental bubble. I hope you don't need therapy now.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I do speak for myself as a vastly overpowered PvP tamer. I think my template should be balanced a bit. Unlike you I really care about balance. I am not trying to nerf YOU or other tamer gimplets I am trying to nerf MYSELF. I personally with 4 tamers 3 of them are PvP characters that are completely gimped out for the fastest insta-kill capability. Why do I play them? Because seeking for that most power template that you can play has been one of the biggest part in UO PvP. And why tamers? because they insta-kill people just fine and dont require too much player skill to be effective thus I can play it just fine.

True there are other things that needs to be fixed but there's only one thing in game that's capable instant killing all 70 player in very very short amount of time on or OFFSCREEN doesnt matter.

If you dont really see the problem, you dont give a **** about PvP balance, and true, PvPers are the minority and since you are in the majority of tram PvMers please leave the PvP talk to the real PvPers. :thumbsup:

Edit: I just read ur post stating you are 12yr PvPer so you can speak for the entire PvP community. I apologze. Tamers are balanced because you said so. And all the proof I physically provided hasnt yet to be countered but it dont mean jack because a 12 yr PvPer that represent the whole PvP community said tamers are very well balanced... I get it. My bad. peace out.
 
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archite666

Guest
Bah..I apologize for your lack of comprehension.

This entire thread has turned into nerf Tamer thread...like hundreds of others before it. How boring and no way am I going to read every post here.

You have no desire or concept as to really fixing the PvP world. You are just whining about a template or something you, personally, have trouble with.

Guess what....the majority of PvPers out there do not have trouble with much of anything right now. Sure, we complain about getting killed by this and that, Yew gate huggers, turtle guilds at spawns and on and on. BUT...it is also what given degrees of excitement, keeps us around and those smarter than the average bear fully accept it and play within it every day with a smile on our face.

YOU are in the minority and trying to further your own personal views. You DO NOT speak for the PvP community. YOU speak for YOURSELF only.

I am a 12 year UO PvPer and your views definitely do not coincide with mine or any of the hundreds of other PvPers I play with every day.

Sorry to burst your self induced little mental bubble. I hope you don't need therapy now.

I would suggest reading the thread in order to avoid putting your foot in your mouth.

The only people here who have defending tamers have been yourself and morgana.

We have proven the reasons why tamers need nerfing time and time again.

You are trying to further your own interests, I have two tamers and they are simply broken.

Its not about "dealing with it" that makes it fair. Sure you can run away but that doest mean its balanced.

I'm not even going to continue, everything has already been said. heres a picture for you why tamers are overpowered.

If you can explain how that is balanced I will quit my crusade against tamers.

 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I love screenies. And those two spells are magic arrow and lighting they could be FS and FS or FS Ebolt.

And if you see the bottom of screen I was interrupted by the "previous" spells and I immidiately recast gheal and barely survived with 20hp. Shows you how frequent or fast pets can throw out spells. Imaging there was also a tamer who dismount shot you for 30ish damage that would be 110+ dmg combo OR ME also casting dumping on you... and that's not even counting the 35dmg melee hit (thru my 70 physical resist) and the possible bleed attack that came with it. Also again the 2 spells that landed back to back could also be much bigger spell than magic arrow and lighting.

I am a decent mage but it didnt help me when the first time I died trying to catch a full combo from MY OWN dragon because the screen blacked out. (as you can see my corpse on screen).
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
This is my mare combo on a wandering healer.
It case you cant see the damage clearly there are 6 damages visible INSTANTLY...



From top to bottom
22
61
77
89
81
103

For a total of 433 damage. Assuming the healer had zero resist and lets assume the combo is put on a PvPer with all 70 resists across the board....

443*.3= 129.9

THAT'S a combo of 130 damage to a all 70 resist player and as you can see my log I didnt set it up or anything, I went to brit gate and just "DID IT".

Loving the dmg, but sucks for the dude on the receiving end.

See if I can "just" pull a 130 damage combo out of my ass instantly, I really cant say my self "balanced". And I did nothing but good old Exp FS.... also proving my other argument "tamers dont require too much player skill to instant kill people".

Thanks for reading.
 

Widow Maker

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I can also kill you, in a matter of a seconds, in a full 70's suit with my mage necro (way faster than any tamer template). I can kill you in equal time with my archer, my macer, my swordsman or any of the many exotic templates I use. I do not PvP with a tamer and there is no need to refute any of your supposed "findings". It is all bunk and you are interested in nothing but nerfing this or that that you can't seem to beat on any given day or who dirt naps you (I suspect this is the real issue) on a daily basis.

I don't give a crap about your flavor of today template that you are on a soapbox about. I am just saying that YOUR personal agendas are NOT what the PvP world is worried about.

Are there templates out there that are successful. harder to kill, etc.? Of course there are. That is the evolutionary and revolutionary aspect of this game that keeps everyone paying. Leave it alone!

Screw you and your desires to have everything conform to your way of thought or judgments.

Fix the exploits, cheats and bugs. The game has (almost) never been as correctly balanced as it currently is. Leave it alone. I see more of a mix of templates out there now than has EVER been seen in this game before. Stump about fixing the things that matter. Not what matters to YOU and a few other misguided whiners who are incapable of hanging with the big boys.

Do NOT speak for me...and I am the PvP world.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I can also kill you, in a matter of a seconds, in a full 70's suit with my mage necro (way faster than any tamer template). I can kill you in equal time with my archer, my macer, my swordsman or any of the many exotic templates I use. I do not PvP with a tamer and there is no need to refute any of your supposed "findings". It is all bunk and you are interested in nothing but nerfing this or that that you can't seem to beat on any given day or who dirt naps you (I suspect this is the real issue) on a daily basis.

I don't give a crap about your flavor of today template that you are on a soapbox about. I am just saying that YOUR personal agendas are NOT what the PvP world is worried about.

Are there templates out there that are successful. harder to kill, etc.? Of course there are. That is the evolutionary and revolutionary aspect of this game that keeps everyone paying. Leave it alone!

Screw you and your desires to have everything conform to your way of thought or judgments.

Fix the exploits, cheats and bugs. The game has (almost) never been as correctly balanced as it currently is. Leave it alone. I see more of a mix of templates out there now than has EVER been seen in this game before. Stump about fixing the things that matter. Not what matters to YOU and a few other misguided whiners who are incapable of hanging with the big boys.

Do NOT speak for me...and I am the PvP world.
I cant kill anyone on my archer in 1 second because that's not even enough time to do a 2nd swing (cap is at 1.25 in case you dont know). I dont care what you try YOUR exotic necromage can NOT dish out 130 damage to all 70 resist characters within the same timeframe I cast Exp and FS, and your macer CANNOT swing 3 times in 1 second not even two. Please get your facts straight if you really claim yourself as head of PvP community.

It will be funny to see you using your super leet necromage duel me with my mares on foot no offscreen, it will be great if I can use the exploit you are using to make you swing 3 times in 1 second (or 1 hit for 130 dmg thru 70 resist). PvP is amazing so many stuff I dont know.

Please tell me how to swing past 1.25 swinging cap.... please I need to know because it will help my bushido nerve evade tamer to do even better. :thumbsup:
 
U

uomlplayer

Guest
This is my mare combo on a wandering healer.
It case you cant see the damage clearly there are 6 damages visible INSTANTLY...



From top to bottom
22
61
77
89
81
103

For a total of 433 damage. Assuming the healer had zero resist and lets assume the combo is put on a PvPer with all 70 resists across the board....

443*.3= 129.9

THAT'S a combo of 130 damage to a all 70 resist player and as you can see my log I didnt set it up or anything, I went to brit gate and just "DID IT".

Loving the dmg, but sucks for the dude on the receiving end.

See if I can "just" pull a 130 damage combo out of my ass instantly, I really cant say my self "balanced". And I did nothing but good old Exp FS.... also proving my other argument "tamers dont require too much player skill to instant kill people".

Thanks for reading.
This screen shot is you doing all this damage to a NAKED NPC healer,NOT someone in a FuLL 70'S suit..and to top it off you casted FS TOO, exagerate much?
 
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archite666

Guest
This screen shot is you doing all this damage to a NAKED NPC healer,NOT someone in a FuLL 70'S suit..and to top it off you casted FS TOO, exagerate much?
OMG, did you even read the post your quoted?

He said assuming the healer had 0 resist, 433*.3 would still be like 130 damage

Do you know what math is?
 
A

archite666

Guest
I can also kill you, in a matter of a seconds, in a full 70's suit with my mage necro (way faster than any tamer template). I can kill you in equal time with my archer, my macer, my swordsman or any of the many exotic templates I use. I do not PvP with a tamer and there is no need to refute any of your supposed "findings". It is all bunk and you are interested in nothing but nerfing this or that that you can't seem to beat on any given day or who dirt naps you (I suspect this is the real issue) on a daily basis.

I don't give a crap about your flavor of today template that you are on a soapbox about. I am just saying that YOUR personal agendas are NOT what the PvP world is worried about.

Are there templates out there that are successful. harder to kill, etc.? Of course there are. That is the evolutionary and revolutionary aspect of this game that keeps everyone paying. Leave it alone!

Screw you and your desires to have everything conform to your way of thought or judgments.

Fix the exploits, cheats and bugs. The game has (almost) never been as correctly balanced as it currently is. Leave it alone. I see more of a mix of templates out there now than has EVER been seen in this game before. Stump about fixing the things that matter. Not what matters to YOU and a few other misguided whiners who are incapable of hanging with the big boys.

Do NOT speak for me...and I am the PvP world.


No you cant kill me as fast, its called apples and harm spam :)

Your missing the fact that there is no going toe to toe with a greater dragon.

Once again, a picture is worth a thousand words, by not defending against it, your admiting that its overpowered.

 
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uomlplayer

Guest
OMG, did you even read the post your quoted?

He said assuming the healer had 0 resist, 433*.3 would still be like 130 damage

Do you know what math is?
My bad I have done what I have accused other's of doing, this makes me EMO! :sad4: :hahaha:
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
No you cant kill me as fast, its called apples and harm spam :)

Your missing the fact that there is no going toe to toe with a greater dragon.

Once again, a picture is worth a thousand words, by not defending against it, your admiting that its overpowered.

I justed wanted to put in my thought on this matter.

With the welfare arties out nowadays, I dont care how uber you're dragon is or what template you run, no tamer's gonna kill me 1vs1(by 1vs1 i mean tamer+thier pet/pet's) but also i wont be able to kill them either,I dont really have a problem with not being able to kill the tamer because he cant kill me either. So i really dont know what's all the fuss about(I dont care if you agree with me or not just my opinion).

Bottom line? pet's are ok on a 1vs1 encounter but are over powerd when there's a group of them.
 
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archite666

Guest
I justed wanted to put in my thought on this matter.

With the welfare arties out nowadays, I dont care how uber you're dragon is or what template you run, no tamer's gonna kill me 1vs1(by 1vs1 i mean tamer+thier pet/pet's) but also i wont be able to kill them either,I dont really have a problem with not being able to kill the tamer because he cant kill me either. So i really dont know what's all the fuss about(I dont care if you agree with me or not just my opinion).

Bottom line? pet's are ok on a 1vs1 encounter but are over powerd when there's a group of them.
Thats our point though.

Just because you can run away and live another day doest mean its balanced.

Yes you can make a template that can SURVIVE against a dragon. That doe'st mean its not unbalanced.

The majority of people cannot survive against one, now keep in mind I play Siege where you dont have all the uber items you need all the time.

On siege you can run full faction suits which costs millions of gold to replace and the tamer runs bloodwood armor which just takes some chopping wood to get and you have to run away when you see him, doest that sounds a little unbalanced?

Not to mention even if its 3 V 1 if you dont have a detect tracking he can walks away scott free.
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
Thats our point though.

Just because you can run away and live another day doest mean its balanced.

Yes you can make a template that can SURVIVE against a dragon. That doe'st mean its not unbalanced.

The majority of people cannot survive against one, now keep in mind I play Siege where you dont have all the uber items you need all the time.

On siege you can run full faction suits which costs millions of gold to replace and the tamer runs bloodwood armor which just takes some chopping wood to get and you have to run away when you see him, doest that sounds a little unbalanced?

Not to mention even if its 3 V 1 if you dont have a detect tracking he can walks away scott free.
You dont have to run away! here let me tell you what i do when i encounter a dragon or tamer with pet in tow, as soon as you see it cast ev's,cast omen/para cast para feild's
then stand there and watch the tamer stealth away,You dont even need good gear to do cast those spells.If you're a dexter start killing it! cast evasion! cast Eoo! con wep! and you can kill the drag.Just do anything to distract pet's and you wont have to worry!

I too sir play on siege, I know how much gear cost's there.

As for faction arties they are so easy to get as long as you're willing to farm the silver, heck some day's i can go for hour's on end in blighted groove and not get killed or even see anybody go there(maybe because everyone has to wait for a group before they go to blighted? who knows).

Lastly IF the tamer cant be harmed because they "magically dissapear" then its more of a problem with stealth/ smoke bomb's not the pet.Id like to see if there is this much fuss if it was the bard tamer or even any other tamer template that uses the dragon would there be so much fuss?

I really think the problem lies within the SMOKE BOMB! more so than pets.
 
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archite666

Guest
You dont have to run away! here let me tell you what i do when i encounter a dragon or tamer with pet in tow, as soon as you see it cast ev's,cast omen/para cast para feild's
then stand there and watch the tamer stealth away,You dont even need good gear to do cast those spells.If you're a dexter start killing it! cast evasion! cast Eoo! con wep! and you can kill the drag.Just do anything to distract pet's and you wont have to worry!

I too sir play on siege, I know how much gear cost's there.

As for faction arties they are so easy to get as long as you're willing to farm the silver, heck some day's i can go for hour's on end in blighted groove and not get killed or even see anybody go there(maybe because everyone has to wait for a group before they go to blighted? who knows).

Lastly IF the tamer cant be harmed because they "magically dissapear" then its more of a problem with stealth/ smoke bomb's not the pet.Id like to see if there is this much fuss if it was the bard tamer or even any other tamer template that uses the dragon would there be so much fuss?

I really think the problem lies within the SMOKE BOMB! more so than pets.
Yeah....good luck with that....those statements are not based on actually pvp events.

You have to be a pvm dexxer to take out a dragon, and no pvp tamer cares about para fields.
 
M

mr.blackmage

Guest
So you are implying that you have NEVER been insta-killed (as in no chance to do anything) by a HIDDEN dismount/all kill (with insta pet warp) for a total of like 170 damage? I have, and even if it was only once (the cue to once again quit UO pvp until balanced), that was more than enough.

@ widow: The difference between you using your necro, and a tamer? I can interrupt you all day long (and probably kill you, to be honest) as a pure mage, but I cannot interrupt a dragon. I couldn't even kill a greater dragon with 30 seconds of free casting. And the dragons dps is at LEAST 8x mine. You really don't see a problem with a throw-away pvpable doing 8x my damage, with 10x the health?

My opinion: As has been stated, it isn't really greater dragons that are the problem, it's the entire premise of HOW tameables are used in PvP. Although considering that AW's were never meant to be tamed, and these are stronger than AW's... Yeah, they should be nerfed for pvp AND pvm. It's the combat mechanics that need a reworking, though. This can apply to ALL pvp, but it's "most" broken regarding tamers. Archers are next. Special moves need to be reworked (make weapon skills mean something; eliminate spamming), and PvP mobility (STOP WITH THE OFFSCREEN!!) as a whole has to be slowed the heck down. Even hiding/stealth needs to be reworked, but having options to reveal (as in the reveal spell) can remove the need for any reworkings for that. Although I would like a 2 second timer WHERE YOU ARE REVEALED if you initiate an attack while hidden, before your attack goes off.

I dunno, there IS a lot of stuff that could and should be balanced. All of it has been mentioned since the release of AoS and subsequent expansions. When does 7 years of pleading for change turn into being selfish and not wanting things to be balanced?

And yes Widow, cheats should be eliminated as well. But we all know that regardless of how wide spread the use is (of speeder programs anyways), that EA will not do jack. I've been threatened with being banned for paging on people for it. The easiest solution would be to optimize the 2d code, or simply just increase the speedcap for it. It is literally impossible to reach the speedcap without an outside program.

@ those people about to tell me otherwise: I have a quad core, 1 tb drive, 5 gb's of ram, 512 mb vid card, ping 30, and can run crysis on max (I have 3 computers similar to this; same results on ALL). I also turn off my av/firewall, close ALL non-essential programs (15 items in list), set UO to highest priority, -releasemem and -reducecpu in UOA. I also have to turn down ALL video card settings to the lowest, and turn on frameskipping. And I still lag. This is with monthly defragging, weekly spybot/adaware checks, and regular virus scans. AND tweakxp (slash/vista).

But 2d UO lags to ****. Especially around houses, and mobiles such as poison field. If anyone has ANY solution (besides KR; unplayable as a mage for pvp) that doesn't require speederxp or whatever, then please enlighten me.
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
Yeah....good luck with that....those statements are not based on actually pvp events.

You have to be a pvm dexxer to take out a dragon, and no pvp tamer cares about para fields.
Now you're justed going on about nothing you know about, We are talking about a 1vs1 situation in pvp no?(dont even know where pvm came into play) i can even show you, i or anyone else can do all that, if you practice abit and know how pet AI work's. If it's not a 1vs1 situation(me against 1 tamer+ his pet/pet's) then the point is moot because ALL templates are overpowerd in group's.

You don't have to be a pvm dexter(most drags have low resist in one catagory) maybe a archerer and cast con wep?

The tamer will for sure care about my para feild if it stop's his dragon there for few second's(even at 120+ resist!) so yes para feild does the trick!
 

Ailish

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ok how about we ignore the 60 point fireball from multiple screens away and focus on some other things aspects of the greater dragon in pvp.

Almost unkillable - the stealth tamer simply walks away and logs the pet out when he gets in trouble, even if he lets it stick around, it takes a full team of players to kill one, or a disco tamer.
The truly funny thing about this statement is that GDs are about the WORST pet to PvP with, and the EASIEST to counter. Two dexers or archers can lay a GD flat in about 20 seconds. A mage or tracker standing by to reveal the tamer makes said tamer dead pretty quick.

My personal fav way to deal with GDs is to face a bard tamer off against them - Disco and put a cu on that GD and it is dead in about 5 seconds flat, if that. But it is, by NO MEANS, the only way to kill one. I am sorry, but if it is taking you "a full team" to kill the GD .... I shudder at how you (dont) deal with Rikky.
 

Goldberg-Chessy

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So, another tamer bashing thread.

Well at least you were sneaky in the title.
The OP is bashing tamers? He is quite obviously NOT just bashing tamers. He is simply pointing out what he believes to be a serious flaw in the mechanics of certain pets.
I happen to fully agree with him also.

You talk about "sneaky" ?
You sir appear to be quite biased and pro-tamer no matter what the topic lol.
I guess in your mind just mentioning or referencing a tamer/pet in any way, shape or form is tamer bashing. *shakes head*
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
Again i justed wanted to point out, its not so much the pet's are overpowerd, it's not even stealth! it's the SMOKE BOMB! that's overpowerd! because if the tamer can't "magically dissapear" you can tear them a new one so fast they wouldnt want to come near you with a tamer anymore.
 

Goldberg-Chessy

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ok how about we ignore the 60 point fireball from multiple screens away and focus on some other things aspects of the greater dragon in pvp.

Almost unkillable - the stealth tamer simply walks away and logs the pet out when he gets in trouble, even if he lets it stick around, it takes a full team of players to kill one, or a disco tamer.
The truly funny thing about this statement is that GDs are about the WORST pet to PvP with, and the EASIEST to counter. Two dexers or archers can lay a GD flat in about 20 seconds. A mage or tracker standing by to reveal the tamer makes said tamer dead pretty quick.

My personal fav way to deal with GDs is to face a bard tamer off against them - Disco and put a cu on that GD and it is dead in about 5 seconds flat, if that. But it is, by NO MEANS, the only way to kill one. I am sorry, but if it is taking you "a full team" to kill the GD .... I shudder at how you (dont) deal with Rikky.

Ya bud. Who isnt rolling 24/7 with: 2 archers or dexxers, a mage, a tracker, and/or a bard/tamer? Just to kill one pet.

You foolishly just helped to prove their point that GD's are still way overpowered lol
 
M

mr.blackmage

Guest
Again i justed wanted to point out, its not so much the pet's are overpowerd, it's not even stealth! it's the SMOKE BOMB! that's overpowerd! because if the tamer can't "magically dissapear" you can tear them a new one so fast they wouldnt want to come near you with a tamer anymore.
Instant 40ish damage from an unavoidable dismount shot, plus the possibility of a hit magic spell (usually 50%ish). So 40-55 damage instantly, and about... hm... .0001? seconds later the insta warping pet hits you for 100ish.

To recap, that's around 150 damage in the span of less than .1 milliseconds. Try to kill that tamer now?
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
Instant 40ish damage from an unavoidable dismount shot, plus the possibility of a hit magic spell (usually 50%ish). So 40-55 damage instantly, and about... hm... .0001? seconds later the insta warping pet hits you for 100ish.

To recap, that's around 150 damage in the span of less than .1 milliseconds. Try to kill that tamer now?
As soon as you get dismounted chug a pot,use bandages,mini heal?, chiv heal? and start running, assuming this is a open feild setting you can out run the drag and live,they nerfed insta warping long ago(you would know this if you pvpd), if you're not on dialup you can outrun a drag and live....

After you run away and remount timer is up you can para the pet like i said or kill pet if your a archerer.And even sometimes you have to run away or they run away i have no problem with cause no one losted....

pet's have a easy counter measure, smoke bomb doesnt,heck even stealth has a line of sight anmd timer for balance....
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
Ya bud. Who isnt rolling 24/7 with: 2 archers or dexxers, a mage, a tracker, and/or a bard/tamer? Just to kill one pet.

You foolishly just helped to prove their point that GD's are still way overpowered lol
No one need's a team to kill a tamer and his dragon,only a stealth tamer! my above post will show you how to render a pet useless alone!
 
U

uomlplayer

Guest
If so called "pvper's" let any pet's near thier line of sight,let alone get hit by combo and not run away/start casting,or do something to distract pet/pet's are not cut out for pvp! I"m sorry if truth hurt's.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
If so called "pvper's" let any pet's near thier line of sight,let alone get hit by combo and not run away/start casting,or do something to distract pet/pet's are not cut out for pvp! I"m sorry if truth hurt's.
So run the **** away is your way of balancing.
What if I ride a dreadmare? I am probably as good as you pure mage yet you will either die or run like a little girl if I do put my pets on you while DOING THE SAMETHING YOU ARE.

Harm spam? lol I can do that, and quite possibly better. I can pure mage you with two pets going at you... spend time para'ing the pet and not dumping me? I wont just stand there and watch like some trammie pvm tamer. Oh you spend all your time fielding the place and you dont expect me to just mount my dread and move to the next location? Para fields works for dreads but my GD has 124.8 resisting spell which only works on it for a split second. You can only stop the dragon in place enough time for you to cast a pain spike assuming the dragon didnt fire breathe you and me didnt do something on my part...

Either way like you said, you will be running like a little girl while "trying" to do something to me or my pet (not attackable because I already mounted back chasing you). I will probably always have an explosion up while chasing you, you cant your Gheal just got disrrupted thats why you are running like a girl most likely. And when you stop and try to do anything I will be doing my mage part while the pet is already running at you possibly preped a fire breathe too. If you are on a necromage I dont think you can kill me even if I dont use my pets anyways. I might not have enough damage to kill you if you offscreen but I definitely can kill you if you PvPed like a man and stayed on my screen for more than 5 seconds... :next:

I dont prefer GD in PvP, it's gotta be the dreadmare and it's proven to be more deadly. I dont play stealth tamer and I prefer mobility.

My vision of a PvPer isnt running offscreen 80% of the time when you see an enemy like you suggested. Sorry.
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
So run the **** away is your way of balancing.
What if I ride a dreadmare? I am probably as good as you pure mage yet you will either die or run like a little girl if I do put my pets on you while DOING THE SAMETHING YOU ARE.

Harm spam? lol I can do that, and quite possibly better. I can pure mage you with two pets going at you... spend time para'ing the pet and not dumping me? I wont just stand there and watch like some trammie pvm tamer. Oh you spend all your time fielding the place and you dont expect me to just mount my dread and move to the next location? Para fields works for dreads but my GD has 124.8 resisting spell which only works on it for a split second. You can only stop the dragon in place enough time for you to cast a pain spike assuming the dragon didnt fire breathe you and me didnt do something on my part...

Either way like you said, you will be running like a little girl while "trying" to do something to me or my pet (not attackable because I already mounted back chasing you). I will probably always have an explosion up while chasing you, you cant your Gheal just got disrrupted thats why you are running like a girl most likely. And when you stop and try to do anything I will be doing my mage part while the pet is already running at you possibly preped a fire breathe too. If you are on a necromage I dont think you can kill me even if I dont use my pets anyways. I might not have enough damage to kill you if you offscreen but I definitely can kill you if you PvPed like a man and stayed on my screen for more than 5 seconds... :next:

I dont prefer GD in PvP, it's gotta be the dreadmare and it's proven to be more deadly. I dont play stealth tamer and I prefer mobility.

My vision of a PvPer isnt running offscreen 80% of the time when you see an enemy like you suggested. Sorry.
If you haven't noticed, this is a cry thread about greater dragon's.

IF you came at me with a dreadmare id dismount you and kill you'r weak ass dread war horse with low resistance, me and you can do this on test shard if you want or on seige takle your pick.And if you mount you'r warhjorse to save it from dying wouldnt you be the one that's running like a little girl? :next:
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ok I will place a 18x18 plot and tame a dread wait I cant I will use the weaker beetle mare combo. Let's get on foot (so you dont have to dismount me) and duel, me and my pets against your exotic necromage. No precast no pots no offscreen like a real duel. I take your challenge.
 
A

archite666

Guest
If you haven't noticed, this is a cry thread about greater dragon's.

IF you came at me with a dreadmare id dismount you and kill you'r weak ass dread war horse with low resistance, me and you can do this on test shard if you want or on seige takle your pick.And if you mount you'r warhjorse to save it from dying wouldnt you be the one that's running like a little girl? :next:
Il take this bet too actually, and I have the chars to do it with.

Not to mention I don't even know who you are in game.
 
U

uomlplayer

Guest
Ok I will place a 18x18 plot and tame a dread wait I cant I will use the weaker beetle mare combo. Let's get on foot (so you dont have to dismount me) and duel, me and my pets against your exotic necromage. No precast no pots no offscreen like a real duel. I take your challenge.
I see you are losing track/didnt even bother to read my post or you just don't comprehend it?
Above i clearly said in open feild setting! there should be no problem with a non stealther tamer as a opponent.

In a duel setting where you are constricted to a area you dont even need 2 pet's or even 1 very powerfully pet, it simply take's 1 nightmare to destroy the opponent,DUH...........

I will fight you in a feild fight setting anything goes! just me and you with you're pet's!
 

Ailish

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ya bud. Who isnt rolling 24/7 with: 2 archers or dexxers, a mage, a tracker, and/or a bard/tamer? Just to kill one pet.

You foolishly just helped to prove their point that GD's are still way overpowered lol
You are wrong. Note I said two could do it in 20 seconds. Honestly, the easiest way for a single dexer to deal with it is to lead the dragon away, making it obsolete, then use tracking or human tracking and conflag pots to do away with the tamer. Also, there are confusion pots that will make the pet stop targetting you.

Just because you DONT WANT to use/invest in the skills that will defeat this template (tracking, disco just to name two) doesnt mean they dont exist. My husbands favorite way to deal with GDs is a disco/poison/fencer. He can dispatch both the tamer and the pet quite well by himself when he is doing it right. You are wanting to take your most awesome dagger to a gun fight, and its no one's fault but your own. Use the right tool for the right situation. That is all there is to it.

Now, having pointed out that there are several ways to counter GD tamers, even solo, I suggest you look up a thread that I participated HEAVILY in that had to do with ballancing pets for PvP. There were some really good ideas in it that did not include *tamers should be banned from Fel because I can't use appropriate skills against them!* There are definitely issues with casting range, and a serious issue with being able to safe-log a pet that is in combat. They just are not as insurmountable as some people want to make them out to be.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I see you are losing track/didnt even bother to read my post or you just don't comprehend it?
Above i clearly said in open feild setting! there should be no problem with a non stealther tamer as a opponent.

In a duel setting where you are constricted to a area you dont even need 2 pet's or even 1 very powerfully pet, it simply take's 1 nightmare to destroy the opponent,DUH...........

I will fight you in a feild fight setting anything goes! just me and you with you're pet's!
So you admit that you are using the run like a little girl tactics against another opponent willing to stand toe to toe with you? Again I am trying to eliminate offscreen out of the combat, and you said you have no problem to kill me with your "exotic" necromage (whatever that means) very quickly...

You said pets are balanced if you just para it. How about this same duel setup, you can para my GD right when the duel starts and just own me very quickly like you stated... I want to see your 130 dmg combo in 1 second in a real duel :thumbsup:

And I am more duelist than you think thus I said I dont like running away or chasing people. It's a perfect way to show the power difference between a tamer mage and a regular non-taming template... I wont even use smoke bomb (you said smokebomb is what's overpowered right?)...
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
So you admit that you are using the run like a little girl tactics against another opponent willing to stand toe to toe with you? Again I am trying to eliminate offscreen out of the combat, and you said you have no problem to kill me with your "exotic" necromage (whatever that means) very quickly...

You said pets are balanced if you just para it. How about this same duel setup, you can para my GD right when the duel starts and just own me very quickly like you stated... I want to see your 130 dmg combo in 1 second in a real duel :thumbsup:

And I am more duelist than you think thus I said I dont like running away or chasing people. It's a perfect way to show the power difference between a tamer mage and a regular non-taming template... I wont even use smoke bomb (you said smokebomb is what's overpowered right?)...
PFFT! duel a tamer in a 18x18? Why not 8x8 more power to you right? ROFL......
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You are wrong. Note I said two could do it in 20 seconds. Honestly, the easiest way for a single dexer to deal with it is to lead the dragon away, making it obsolete, then use tracking or human tracking and conflag pots to do away with the tamer. Also, there are confusion pots that will make the pet stop targetting you.

Just because you DONT WANT to use/invest in the skills that will defeat this template (tracking, disco just to name two) doesnt mean they dont exist. My husbands favorite way to deal with GDs is a disco/poison/fencer. He can dispatch both the tamer and the pet quite well by himself when he is doing it right. You are wanting to take your most awesome dagger to a gun fight, and its no one's fault but your own. Use the right tool for the right situation. That is all there is to it.

Now, having pointed out that there are several ways to counter GD tamers, even solo, I suggest you look up a thread that I participated HEAVILY in that had to do with ballancing pets for PvP. There were some really good ideas in it that did not include *tamers should be banned from Fel because I can't use appropriate skills against them!* There are definitely issues with casting range, and a serious issue with being able to safe-log a pet that is in combat. They just are not as insurmountable as some people want to make them out to be.
I dont know how a correctly played tamer can let you "lure" the dragon away. Pet commands works a lot better now, a dragon will sit there and let you shoot it without doing anything or leaving the tamer if the command all follow me is issued. One dexer can kill a GD if the tamer dont know what he's doing, but a decent tamer should have you dismounted by the time you "try" to lure the dragon away.

On seige you also need a tracker/detector to be able to locate the stealther. And your detect reuse timer is twice as long as the rehide timer... a stealth tamer played right shouldnt ever die unless its a ultra gank, and even 20 second is plenty for the tamer to stealth to a safe place to save his GD.

For the tamer it's a Win-Tie situation. If you got some bad RNG and got instantly killed you lose but if you didnt get killed outright, they get away and try again. :thumbsup:
 
U

uomlplayer

Guest
I dont know how a correctly played tamer can let you "lure" the dragon away. Pet commands works a lot better now, a dragon will sit there and let you shoot it without doing anything or leaving the tamer if the command all follow me is issued. One dexer can kill a GD if the tamer dont know what he's doing, but a decent tamer should have you dismounted by the time you "try" to lure the dragon away.

On seige you also need a tracker/detector to be able to locate the stealther. And your detect reuse timer is twice as long as the rehide timer... a stealth tamer played right shouldnt ever die unless its a ultra gank, and even 20 second is plenty for the tamer to stealth to a safe place to save his GD.

For the tamer it's a Win-Tie situation. If you got some bad RNG and got instantly killed you lose but if you didnt get killed outright, they get away and try again. :thumbsup:[/QUOT

It's not about luring the pet's,pet will follow you if tamer tell it to kill you then you walk on the feild you casted after you survived the inital attack, if the dont have stealth /smoke bomb's there dead fast.
 

Ailish

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I dont know how a correctly played tamer can let you "lure" the dragon away. Pet commands works a lot better now, a dragon will sit there and let you shoot it without doing anything or leaving the tamer if the command all follow me is issued. One dexer can kill a GD if the tamer dont know what he's doing, but a decent tamer should have you dismounted by the time you "try" to lure the dragon away.

On seige ...
I can agree to some extent about the luring. I never let my pets (on the rare occasion I am found on a tamer) get off my screen. However, that works against the tamer, too. The second you issue the stop command, the pet stops attacking, lessening any damage taken.
Also, being dismounted just isnt that big of a deal. I can EASILY outrun a GD while on foot. I do, however, know of a couple very observant/skilled tamers that take every opportunity to block a person in against the pet, which is difficult to deal with, but not impossible (again, confuse pots are priceless).

As for you "on Siege" ... I really dont give a hoot about your unique difficulties on Siege. You went there to play a harder game, suck it up. Sorry if that sound mean, but arguements that include those words only belong in threads that are specific TO Siege. You cannot realistically expect the Dev's to balance the whole game based on things that are unique to Siege.
 
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uomlplayer

Guest
I dont know how a correctly played tamer can let you "lure" the dragon away. Pet commands works a lot better now, a dragon will sit there and let you shoot it without doing anything or leaving the tamer if the command all follow me is issued. One dexer can kill a GD if the tamer dont know what he's doing, but a decent tamer should have you dismounted by the time you "try" to lure the dragon away.

On seige you also need a tracker/detector to be able to locate the stealther. And your detect reuse timer is twice as long as the rehide timer... a stealth tamer played right shouldnt ever die unless its a ultra gank, and even 20 second is plenty for the tamer to stealth to a safe place to save his GD.

For the tamer it's a Win-Tie situation. If you got some bad RNG and got instantly killed you lose but if you didnt get killed outright, they get away and try again. :thumbsup:
Of course a stealth tamer played right with correct gear wont die,it's because they can "magically dissapear"

IS the pet's that's overpower'd?, where you can para/lure/confuse pt ect.. overpower'd or the insta hide smoke bomb that's overpower'd?

people nowaday's just want to argue ,but dont bother to understand the root of the problem
 

Harlequin

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Be careful what you wish for. If you look at the overall picture, as much as I hate to say this, tamers and GDs/etc are the only thing keeping other vastly overpowered templates in check.

I dont believe much of anything needs nerfing right now. Most templates have at least 1 or 2 grossly overpowered abilities right now and they are equalizing themselves out.

If you have an issue with just the tamer template? ...Use the common exploit out there and use a blue bard in GZ to completely negate them. I have a red bard mage/archer that simply drops any tamer/Pet out there that dares to venture out of the GZ. Of course, I am not able to discord pets in the GZ like blue bards can :) I guess when a blue does it, it is a good thing...rofl!

Drop the nerf stick. Fix exploits instead.

This is one of the longest WHINER/EMO threads I have seen in some time. Way to go!!


I hate any kind of nerfing in general. I would rather buff up the opposite, or "nerf upwards". But first, regarding blue bards.



Using blue bards against tamers is not an exploit

I have to say that using a blue bard is not an exploit. It's totally valid game mechanics.

To people that says "then how come if red bards do the same thing, they are flagged". My opinion is that, being red means you are now a wanted murderer. It's one more penalty for being red, and more reason to stay blue. I am sorry to say that wonton murderers should not expect the same courtesy normally afforded to the blues to be extended to you.

As a tamer, you alone (even without your weakened pet) should be able to take out the bard if neither of you are hugging a guardzone.

Templates wise, - in theory, a tamer has devoted only 2-3 skills: taming/lore plus maybe vet in his template. The rest of the 4-5 skills can be uses on magery/eval/resists/med (or their warrior equivalents weaponskill/tactics/resists/chiv/bushido).

A bard has devoted the same 2-3 skills: music/discord plus maybe peace. He also has 4-5 remaining skills for the rest of his template.

So even with the tamers' pet taken out of the equation, the tamer still has the same remaining skill points to go toe to toe with the bard.

Further, note that the skillpoints invested into the barding skills are much less useful in a PvP situation compared to taming.



GDs by themselves are not overpowered

If you compared damage output without double casting and without the tamer attacking at the same time, GDs by themselves are really not overpowered, they spawn with low dex that cannot be trained above 125, meaning their chase/attack speed is capped at 125 dex, unlike rune beetles/frenzies.

A pack of 5 frenzies tears things up much much faster than a GD and attacks 5 times a second, if it doesn't instant kill someone, it screws up any spellcasting/healing attempt badly and will block 5 tiles adjacent to the victim. If the victim makes a wrong step or the tamer somehow boxes the victim in, he'll need to regain full stamina to push himself out. Now, if you party another tamer with 5 pack animals, those 10 pack animals can easily clog up all 8 adjacent tiles...

But they have low HPs/resists and are susceptible to area attacks. In balance, a GD has better survivability with it's higher HP and resists.



Tactics for dealing with tamer
Several people have already explained how to deal with tamers. I just want to highlight that when you go against a tamer, it's basically a co-ordinated gank scenario (from 1-5 pets plus tamer). Normal tactics that you use 1 v 1 will not work well. Best to have a friend, one to deal with the pet/s, one to deal with the tamer.

The main idea is to attack the weakest link - the tamer. Once he's dead, his pets will be alot easier to handle. Also, if you are with a freind, take advantage of the fact that his pets can only attack 1 player at a time. If he's too long in the tooth and doesn't fall for luring techniques, x-heal and gank him. Just don't leave him disengaged and free to cast spells or shoot at you or assist his pets as he pleases.

Note: My tactics as biased towards 2 v 1 strategies as I play together with my wife, esp when we go Fel or Siege. But we don't aggro people. We only retaliate when attacked (oh, and run away too!).



There's something not right about spellcasting monsters and pets
That's OP's point. The "double casting" and "1 skipped range check done at the point of setting off the spell". This really do seem to be a bug with mobs' spell casting sequence. Can this at least be looked into first? It's not a true nerf, it's just correcting an algorithmn to make it conform to normal spellcasting rules. Let's see if it offers a measure of balance, if not we can look at further tweaks.



If that doesn't work, then look at DPS from pets
I say look at DPS from pets instead of capping pet damage. That's because I feel a simple damage cap will not work. It's not really 1 massive spell or attack that kills you, it's the combo of attacks. Capping DPS will do nothing to a pack of frenzies as someone else already mentioned, or combo weapon specials etc.

To prevent 1 hit-kill situations, I'd rather they jack up player HPs instead. Then balance the rest of the things upwards. The advantage of this is that you have more allowance to play with for better fine tuning in the future.

If they cut damage in half now, it'll be like cutting a length of rope in half, you have less rope play with in the future.
 

Widow Maker

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Since GDs came out, not once have I ever been hit with the kinds of numbers these "the sky is falling" kids are whining about. In fact, I doubt that I have ever been killed solo, by a GD, more than a couple of times. I usually die because of a gank from other players in concert with the GD damage. That is akin to a simple gank from players and their weapons.

It looks more and more like we have some kids here who just can't deal with the fact that they just don't measure up and are looking for the Devs to allow their lesser selves to look better.
 
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