• Hail Guest!
    We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
  • Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
  • Hail Guest!,
    Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
  • Hail Guest!
    Please read the new anncouncement concering the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the annoucnement Here!

Why you will never win an online argument

Sir Osis of Liver

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
WRONG! I win cuz ur DUMB!!!! Checkmate loser! PwwwnnnDD! That double D was for the Double Dose of pimping i just hit you with!
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
i seek not 2 'win' but 2 bring fact & reason 2 discussions i participate in. this gets me in trouble sometimes but it must b done. i no that those who have faith in bad sources over reason will never b swayed but 2 hell with it. others might.
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
It's probably more to do with the fact that most arguments on the internet are subjective. Also, you're arguing with a stranger so you're just wasting time even if you make a point and will still feel disappointed... thirdly... Some people, admittedly me, will only argue sometimes because people are easily triggered and it's funny.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
It's probably more to do with the fact that most arguments on the internet are subjective.
problem is that even when facts are at issue, directly or indirectly, people ignore them; or substitute faith or conspiracy; or something like that. it's the spirit of the age.
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
problem is that even when facts are at issue, directly or indirectly, people ignore them; or substitute faith or conspiracy; or something like that. it's the spirit of the age.
Disagree. A lot of people put facts out there based on an opinion. So lets make an example...

Person A says "I hate Ultima Online." OPINION
Person B says "Why? Ultima Online is the oldest MMORPG and it's unique system is very fun." UNRELATED FACT and OPINION
Person A says "I don't like the system because the most rewarding part of the system is locked behind large gold walls for new players and/or PVP." RELATED FACT and OPINION

This happens all the time. Both players stated "Facts", but the facts paint a different picture for both players and while they are facts they aren't always relevant to the original statement. I see this all the time and people that post unrelated facts getting frustrated that their fact based opinion isn't being acknowledged.

This is also a good time to troll by stating another very true fact that completely contradicts the point one person is making. It's just as factual, may be a little far fetched in the premise, but it's a fact. People get so triggered over just how far fetched the opinion they are deriving from the fact is.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Disagree. A lot of people put facts out there based on an opinion. So lets make an example...

Person A says "I hate Ultima Online." OPINION
Person B says "Why? Ultima Online is the oldest MMORPG and it's unique system is very fun." UNRELATED FACT and OPINION
Person A says "I don't like the system because the most rewarding part of the system is locked behind large gold walls for new players and/or PVP." RELATED FACT and OPINION

This happens all the time. Both players stated "Facts", but the facts paint a different picture for both players and while they are facts they aren't always relevant to the original statement. I see this all the time and people that post unrelated facts getting frustrated that their fact based opinion isn't being acknowledged.

This is also a good time to troll by stating another very true fact that completely contradicts the point one person is making. It's just as factual, may be a little far fetched in the premise, but it's a fact. People get so triggered over just how far fetched the opinion they are deriving from the fact is.
umm....Isn't some of this what I was saying? the way people substitute opinions for facts?

anyway this is what i try 2 do.

person A: I h8 the earth.
person b: y?
person a: is flat. i h8 flat things.
person b: y u have problems with flat earth?

i'd try 2 point out that the world isn't flat. i don't care if u like the world or not, but the world isn't flat. so don't h8 it 4 being flat when it isn't flat.

problem with ur example is that it mostly just shows that different people value different things! & that's fine.
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
umm....Isn't some of this what I was saying? the way people substitute opinions for facts?

anyway this is what i try 2 do.

person A: I h8 the earth.
person b: y?
person a: is flat. i h8 flat things.
person b: y u have problems with flat earth?

i'd try 2 point out that the world isn't flat. i don't care if u like the world or not, but the world isn't flat. so don't h8 it 4 being flat when it isn't flat.

problem with ur example is that it mostly just shows that different people value different things! & that's fine.
I'm not following this. Can you show me how a argument would go based on your original point? When someone says something and someone gives them a fact in direct answer I rarely see that form into an argument except if a troll wants to just play around.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I'm not following this. Can you show me how a argument would go based on your original point? When someone says something and someone gives them a fact in direct answer I rarely see that form into an argument except if a troll wants to just play around.
u r either trying 2 use this thread 2 illustrate your arguments above, or r new 2 stratics.

in case u r sincere, 4 1 example check out custom rules shard thread from a month or so ago. the locked one. opinion arguments ('i wants custom shard!') which I can't argue with but based on garbage arguments and made-up non-facts ('would be easy 2 do!' and so forth).

i can, & did, destroy the garbage arguments & non-facts. what i could not do is dispute someone else's opinion. i can't make someone not want custom rules shard. but i can show that what underlies the argument is garbage.

other examples that got me in trouble are in this board.
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
I'm just finding it hard reading how you're typing out your sentences. I think the problem is that you don't know the difference between opinions, facts based on opinions, and facts.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
facts based on opinions
The mere fact that such a clause could be uttered, in seeming seriousness, illustrates beautifully my point and why I will continue irregardless (linked because someone will say "irregardless isn't a word," which it is, it's just not a preferred one) of social pressure. Facts, by definition, aren't based on opinions. Sad to say, however, these days people think that and have no problem saying such in public, as you just did, which is why I must carry on to the extent that sanity allows.
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
Two people can debate with facts and both be wrong to someone else. That's facts based on opinion. I used an example above and see it in game all the time. One person doesn't like the game. Another person uses a fact to say the opinion is wrong. The fact is just irrelevant to desirability of the game. Essentially, they are using a fact to push an opinion. Which is a fact based on opinion. You can google it. It's a common principle in debate where facts are thrown out all the time and disregarded.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Two people can debate with facts and both be wrong to someone else. That's facts based on opinion. I used an example above and see it in game all the time. One person doesn't like the game. Another person uses a fact to say the opinion is wrong. The fact is just irrelevant to desirability of the game. Essentially, they are using a fact to push an opinion. Which is a fact based on opinion. You can google it. It's a common principle in debate where facts are thrown out all the time and disregarded.

'facts based on opinion' = 'stuff folks made up.' it's that i try hard 2 fight against. facts should be facts when they're available. when theyre not we do our best. i know i wont convince u but i also dont care. its readers i write 4.
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
Chocolate is good. <-Opinion
Chocolate is sweet. <-Fact
Chocolate is good because it is sweet. <-Fact and Opinion.

People try to make a point with irrelevant facts. If you are convincing someone to like chocolate, and you are using the fact that it's sweet, it doesn't mean that the other person should have to like chocolate. What I'm saying is that you claim arguments can be solved by facts, but arguments are based on opinions. So any facts you are trying to use aren't really going to help. This happens ALL the time. One person has a list of facts, that are factual, but they think it means something to another person's opinion that it doesn't.

I LOVE RIBEYE STEAK.
It's salty <- Fact
It's juicy with fat marbled throughout <-Fact
It's a tender cut of meat <-Fact

My girlfriend hates steak. It doesn't make my facts untrue. Those facts just don't affect her opinion.

What you're describing is less a argument and more a correction. No one argues against a fact that has nothing to do with opinion.

If someone said they could punch through steel, and you showed them they couldn't, you wouldn't still have to argue with them that they couldn't. No one is going to smash their hand against steel and still argue that they can.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Chocolate is good. <-Opinion
Chocolate is sweet. <-Fact
Chocolate is good because it is sweet. <-Fact and Opinion.

People try to make a point with irrelevant facts. If you are convincing someone to like chocolate, and you are using the fact that it's sweet, it doesn't mean that the other person should have to like chocolate. What I'm saying is that you claim arguments can be solved by facts, but arguments are based on opinions. So any facts you are trying to use aren't really going to help. This happens ALL the time. One person has a list of facts, that are factual, but they think it means something to another person's opinion that it doesn't.

I LOVE RIBEYE STEAK.
It's salty <- Fact
It's juicy with fat marbled throughout <-Fact
It's a tender cut of meat <-Fact

My girlfriend hates steak. It doesn't make my facts untrue. Those facts just don't affect her opinion.

What you're describing is less a argument and more a correction. No one argues against a fact that has nothing to do with opinion.

If someone said they could punch through steel, and you showed them they couldn't, you wouldn't still have to argue with them that they couldn't. No one is going to smash their hand against steel and still argue that they can.
You sure change your mind a lot. Phrased this way I agree with everything you say (with one exception) and I try to correct incorrect facts where possible. For example if you told me "I hate chocolate because it is made out of tomatoes," I would point out that it's not. I wouldn't try to make you like chocolate.

But this one implication you have is demonstrably false: The way you phrase this post, it seems like you think that someone will agree to facts once they are demonstrated, even if it's inconvenient to do so. This hasn't been my experience especially not on Stratics. In my example above, many folks here will continue to assert that chocolate is made from tomatoes and will assert that any sources I have saying to the contrary are lying.
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
You sure change your mind a lot. Phrased this way I agree with everything you say (with one exception) and I try to correct incorrect facts where possible. For example if you told me "I hate chocolate because it is made out of tomatoes," I would point out that it's not. I wouldn't try to make you like chocolate.

But this one implication you have is demonstrably false: The way you phrase this post, it seems like you think that someone will agree to facts once they are demonstrated, even if it's inconvenient to do so. This hasn't been my experience especially not on Stratics. In my example above, many folks here will continue to assert that chocolate is made from tomatoes and will assert that any sources I have saying to the contrary are lying.
Show me where someone has done something like assert tomatoes are used in Chocolate or that they can punch through steel. Show me that argument like that where a fact is flat out obvious.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Show me where someone has done something like assert tomatoes are used in Chocolate or that they can punch through steel. Show me that argument like that where a fact is flat out obvious.
& full circle it commes. lol. i told u already. u repliid by asserting that 'opinion-based-facts' existed. i pointed out that 'opinion-based-fact' is 'stuff u make up.' u replied reasonably, then not 15 minutes later reversed ur position again. u r top-notch komik! or would be if u were trying 2b funny.
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
Hopefully, you're better at writing fiction than trying to make a point...
 

Nexus

Site Support
Administrator
Moderator
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
I LOVE RIBEYE STEAK.
It's salty <- Fact
It's juicy with fat marbled throughout <-Fact
It's a tender cut of meat <-Fact
You just have to be careful with fact and logic.

For Example.

I eat Meat <-- Fact
People are largely composed of Meat <-- Fact
I eat people <-- ???

That Ribeye may or may not be tender if someone over cooks it, or how long it was aged after being removed from the animal. If you are butchering your own animal and that steak only received 1-2 days of aging, it may be fairly tough compared to one that was aged the recommended 11 - 15 days minimum prior to consumption.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Hopefully, you're better at writing fiction than trying to make a point...
i will just do what u admit u do, & say is fact. but is opinion-based fact, so all is gud! lol

ironically most of what i've posted last few weeks is opinion but i know difference. u don't. u have said so clearly. lol
 

Lore

Slightly Crazed
UNLEASHED
Ad hominem argument.... Doesn't prove your point, just attacks someone else. I think I made my point fine... People online use opinions as facts all the time. It's factual they feel a way, it's not a fact, however. What I often see on this game is two people say a factual way of doing something, but they say more than how to do it. They say it's the "Best" way. That's not fact, that's opinion. They mix facts and opinions. and then try to pass it off as a fact to argue about.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Ad hominem argument.... Doesn't prove your point, just attacks someone else. I think I made my point fine... People online use opinions as facts all the time. It's factual they feel a way, it's not a fact, however. What I often see on this game is two people say a factual way of doing something, but they say more than how to do it. They say it's the "Best" way. That's not fact, that's opinion. They mix facts and opinions. and then try to pass it off as a fact to argue about.
No, you were clear that you think facts can be based on opinions. I can't stop you from thinking that. Oh well.
 
Top