Why UO will never grow

[Trebr Drab]

Over on The Pub at MMORPG.COM message boards there's a locked thread titled "Having an "adventure" again?". Basically, a bunch of bored gamers looking for something less grindy and more like old fashioned MMO game play is trying to find a game to all go to, for that old "adventure" feeling, in a Sandbox game.

They've listed a bunch of possible games to consider for their choice, and listed pro's and con's for each.
UO's notes:
+ Wide-open sandbox

+ Low system specs

- Really hard to start in nowadays

- Point-and-click system of movement can get annoying.

So I'd like to congratulate the existing player base who have wanted bigger, better, but primarily to protect their top of the food chain, powergamer elite status. The game is now so hard to start in that few will even try, and fewer still will stick it out when they see the long road to even starting to become competitive.

 

[Uvtha]

With imbuing its easier than ever to get affordable higher end gear...

 

[Smokin]

Hard to start in, what are they talking about.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

UO has ALWAYS been difficult to start in mainly because it slapped you down in a town and said "here ya go, go do it" where other MMOGs start you in a small area and gradually introduce you to the various mechanics.

Whichever way is or is not the superior way, I'm not going to debate here other than to say that the "tutorial" or "newbie" areas are now considered the norm for a game and without one, people start out lost and bewildered on what they want to do next.

To that end, Haven/New Haven has done at least something to try and remedy that situation, but the more open-ended nature of UO does pose issues with the "what do I do first" mentality.

 

[Trebr Drab]

...

UO has ALWAYS been difficult to start in mainly because it slapped you down in a town and said "here ya go, go do it" where other MMOGs start you in a small area and gradually introduce you to the various mechanics.

Whichever way is or is not the superior way, I'm not going to debate here other than to say that the "tutorial" or "newbie" areas are now considered the norm for a game and without one, people start out lost and bewildered on what they want to do next.

To that end, Haven/New Haven has done at least something to try and remedy that situation, but the more open-ended nature of UO does pose issues with the "what do I do first" mentality.

Haven separated newbies from the rest of the players

 

[Mapper]

I started a few characters this year from scratch giving them no money, But they did have an 18x18 on Zento (Okay okay, So not every noobie has that). Anyway, I trained a mule and an alchemist, grew plants and with SA sold Staining Dyes and plenty of other resources at the Zento plot. I also made a mage and did champion spawns with a guild.

8 months later I have plenty of gold (Talking 25 million +).

Point of this story? A noobie can make money, Ignore my Zento plot, Make a mage instead, buy a cheap Imbued LRC suit with hunting gold, Join a guild and you'll soon make money.

 

[DarkVoid]

Over on The Pub at MMORPG.COM message boards there's a locked thread titled "Having an "adventure" again?". Basically, a bunch of bored gamers looking for something less grindy and more like old fashioned MMO game play is trying to find a game to all go to, for that old "adventure" feeling, in a Sandbox game.

They've listed a bunch of possible games to consider for their choice, and listed pro's and con's for each.
UO's notes:
+ Wide-open sandbox

+ Low system specs

- Really hard to start in nowadays

- Point-and-click system of movement can get annoying.

So I'd like to congratulate the existing player base who have wanted bigger, better, but primarily to protect their top of the food chain, powergamer elite status. The game is now so hard to start in that few will even try, and fewer still will stick it out when they see the long road to even starting to become competitive.

Hard to start in? What do they expect, start a newbie and go raiding champ spawns? This simply isn't possible right off but with training, and some good gear - even looted gear from monsters - it can be done.

If they complain that gold is too difficult to come by, there are plenty of ways to avoid that problem, Heartwood for starters.

Point-and-click movement system isn't annoying once you get the feel for it, I've been point-and-click moving for over 10 years now!!

These guys are talking out of the top of their hats, and it's no wonder the thread got locked on those forums.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Dark Void, I meant the thread was locked at the top. Should have said "stickied".

 

[Trebr Drab]

I started a few characters this year from scratch giving them no money, But they did have an 18x18 on Zento (Okay okay, So not every noobie has that). Anyway, I trained a mule and an alchemist, grew plants and with SA sold Staining Dyes and plenty of other resources at the Zento plot. I also made a mage and did champion spawns with a guild.

8 months later I have plenty of gold (Talking 25 million +).

Point of this story? A noobie can make money, Ignore my Zento plot, Make a mage instead, buy a cheap Imbued LRC suit with hunting gold, Join a guild and you'll soon make money.

You must be a very good powergamer.

 

[Stupid Miner]

I started a few characters this year from scratch giving them no money, But they did have an 18x18 on Zento (Okay okay, So not every noobie has that). Anyway, I trained a mule and an alchemist, grew plants and with SA sold Staining Dyes and plenty of other resources at the Zento plot. I also made a mage and did champion spawns with a guild.

8 months later I have plenty of gold (Talking 25 million +).

Point of this story? A noobie can make money, Ignore my Zento plot, Make a mage instead, buy a cheap Imbued LRC suit with hunting gold, Join a guild and you'll soon make money.

They "can" but they can't.
To make money you must have knowledge of the game. Capability isn't the problem, it's relatively easy to gain and max skills. Knowledge is the key here. If it we're, everyone who had maxed chars would have similar incomes.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

... + Wide-open sandbox

check ... and agree. I intensely dislike the guided "you can only do this if you're a <insert profession>" feel of many of the games and level-grind is long past my favorite sport anymore.

+ Low system specs

oh yeah ... this is a good point. One need not have the best top-end system out there to at least do something ingame.

- Really hard to start in nowadays

More for EA: A strong market SHELF presence AND some sort of quick-start guide for new folks would be helpful when in the box. I wish I had the T2A release manual. It was such a helpful guide when I started - I *knew* what to do/not do when I started! And the town maps were invaluable until UOAM came about.

New Haven is fine for training, but there is no guidance in any rudimentary form for new folks - not even hints where they could go for information. Gotta love the electronic age of distribution. NOT!

Absolute minus to UO since AOS.

- Point-and-click system of movement can get annoying.

I kind of disagree here. Without point & click, it's not UO. I played DAoC some time back but it was point and click in that ... conning mobs, battling ... point and click.

Biggest drawback to UO is item #3 - no shelf presence, no clues for new players. Definitely creates an elitist type of environment. Is that REALLY desired?

 

[aarons6]

Hard to start in, what are they talking about.

i tried to get my friend to play, during the ec client new intro it kills you..
she clicked something and it locked up and threw her out in new haven dead..
she tried to talk to several people but they seemed to ignore her.. im guessing those were the npcs..

finally she just shut it off and hasnt looked back yet.
i tried to get her to try it again but its not happening..


so yeah, im guessing its hard to start if you have never played before..

 

[Nexus]

I started a few characters this year from scratch giving them no money, But they did have an 18x18 on Zento (Okay okay, So not every noobie has that). Anyway, I trained a mule and an alchemist, grew plants and with SA sold Staining Dyes and plenty of other resources at the Zento plot. I also made a mage and did champion spawns with a guild.

8 months later I have plenty of gold (Talking 25 million +).

Point of this story? A noobie can make money, Ignore my Zento plot, Make a mage instead, buy a cheap Imbued LRC suit with hunting gold, Join a guild and you'll soon make money.

I'd left UO for a long while and then came back about 5 years ago, when I did I started over with new accounts, in 2 days I'd placed a decent sized house, strictly off picking up all the trash items people throw away (mainly staves and bows from people training Carp and Bowcraft) and selling them to NPC's. From there it was easy to start hording gold and items I could use until I saved up for bigger better equipment and items. UO isn't hard to start in you just have to be able to recognize the opportunities that present themselves as such.

 

[Nexus]

New Haven is fine for training, but there is no guidance in any rudimentary form for new folks - not even hints where they could go for information. Gotta love the electronic age of distribution. NOT!

The Only people we have to blame for that is ourselves, nothing in UO along those lines has changed in the past 12 years except less vets are willing to take the time to actually assist new players in getting their feet wet.

 

[DarkVoid]

Dark Void, I meant the thread was locked at the top. Should have said "stickied".

Have you tried editing your post?

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

I remember the days when trammel was just a daydream and the only safety you could count on was when you were logged out. The only difficulty today is the learning curve...

 

[Trebr Drab]

Have you tried editing your post?

Nope, I haven't.

 

[Gellor]

The reason UO will never grow has less to do with "hard to get started".

UO is lacking a shelf presence or any REAL advertising to speak of.

And given the graphics, I don't blame them.

However, they are trying to screw the graphics up from a clean classic look to a WOW look. And I'd guesstimate that more than 50% playing UO don't want to play WOW.

If EA could maintain the classic feel but upgrade the graphics, they would go a long way toward growing. And NO, I do NOT consider enhanced clients an upgrade in graphics... it fails to maintain the classic feel.

 

[Hiru]

I started a few characters this year from scratch giving them no money, But they did have an 18x18 on Zento (Okay okay, So not every noobie has that). Anyway, I trained a mule and an alchemist, grew plants and with SA sold Staining Dyes and plenty of other resources at the Zento plot. I also made a mage and did champion spawns with a guild.

8 months later I have plenty of gold (Talking 25 million +).

Point of this story? A noobie can make money, Ignore my Zento plot, Make a mage instead, buy a cheap Imbued LRC suit with hunting gold, Join a guild and you'll soon make money.

*agrees fully* I paid for a new account to test this out. Within a day I had full armor - 18x18 and started getting items to fill it. I figured "well I know the system" so I dumped all that and started as though I knew nothing. At this time working slowly I still have 18x18 a smith and tailor - elder mage and about 20m gold. This comes from NO help from other players.. just going with the flow. UO is very very simple to get up and going. WOW (bad word) took forever to level out of the special areas and to get to level 80 takes many hours of endless grinding... (slaps head) UO hands down is a fun and easy game to get into.

Peace!

 

[Trebr Drab]

I remember the days when trammel was just a daydream and the only safety you could count on was when you were logged out. The only difficulty today is the learning curve...

And the extreme amounts of time required, and all the pieces to put together to be competitive.

Hmm, how much does a 120 swords or magery power scroll cost these days? What about a plus 20 stats scroll?

 

[Trebr Drab]

*agrees fully* I paid for a new account to test this out. Within a day I had full armor - 18x18 and started getting items to fill it. I figured "well I know the system" so I dumped all that and started as though I knew nothing. At this time working slowly I still have 18x18 a smith and tailor - elder mage and about 20m gold. This comes from NO help from other players.. just going with the flow. UO is very very simple to get up and going. WOW (bad word) took forever to level out of the special areas and to get to level 80 takes many hours of endless grinding... (slaps head) UO hands down is a fun and easy game to get into.

Peace!

LOL

 

[HD2300]

The reason why it wont grow is that UO's systems favor and encourage scripting, and nothing is done to stop speed hacking, cheating and scripting. It is because of this and 10 year old graphics that few are willing to try out UO.

 

[the 4th man]

Hard to start in, what are they talking about.

Probably a bunch of lazy kids wanting everything at once, as soon as they start..........they actually sound like, (coming from the OP words), lazy antisocialites they neither drive nor have jobs.

In other words, don't get out much.

A post like this is taken with a grain of salt, if that. You get a handful of "gamers" (= antisocialites).....and their opinion is supposed to count for something? Todays generation growing up is scary and sad.

UO will outlive anything out there. It HAS stood the test of time.

later

 

[Mitzlplik_SP]

Hard to start in, what are they talking about.

This.

My account I returned with is 20 months old. In less than 20 months I amassed everything I needed for 7 chars to the point of boredom. I`m not a merchant,just sell the rare loot I get like CC and stuff like that...peerless etc.. Its not hard to start in this game,thats out dated information. Especially with imbueing now...

Theres only one place where its mildly hard to start in this game.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Probably a bunch of lazy kids wanting everything at once, as soon as they start..........they actually sound like, (coming from the OP words), lazy antisocialites they neither drive nor have jobs.

In other words, don't get out much.

A post like this is taken with a grain of salt, if that. You get a handful of "gamers" (= antisocialites).....and their opinion is supposed to count for something? Todays generation growing up is scary and sad.

UO will outlive anything out there. It HAS stood the test of time.

later

If you say so, heh. But how many new players does UO get, or keep?
Just a heads up, many of those posters over there are veteran gamers, many have played UO in the past.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

As in my first post on this, the "hard to start in" is due to the nature of other games to lead you by the hand the first several hours of gameplay. UO has never done this. These same people would probably be lost as hell starting out the original Legend of Zelda without a walkthrough as well.

It's probably not as much of a difficulty of starting as much as it is a lack of hand-holding.

 

[Heartseeker]

I started a few characters this year from scratch giving them no money, But they did have an 18x18 on Zento (Okay okay, So not every noobie has that). Anyway, I trained a mule and an alchemist, grew plants and with SA sold Staining Dyes and plenty of other resources at the Zento plot. I also made a mage and did champion spawns with a guild.

8 months later I have plenty of gold (Talking 25 million +).

Point of this story? A noobie can make money, Ignore my Zento plot, Make a mage instead, buy a cheap Imbued LRC suit with hunting gold, Join a guild and you'll soon make money.

*agrees fully* I paid for a new account to test this out. Within a day I had full armor - 18x18 and started getting items to fill it. I figured "well I know the system" so I dumped all that and started as though I knew nothing. At this time working slowly I still have 18x18 a smith and tailor - elder mage and about 20m gold. This comes from NO help from other players.. just going with the flow. UO is very very simple to get up and going. WOW (bad word) took forever to level out of the special areas and to get to level 80 takes many hours of endless grinding... (slaps head) UO hands down is a fun and easy game to get into.

Peace!

The only thing simple is you.

Just picking spells in UO for a newb is hard.

The scroll down menus in 2d are a nightmare.

Most people that find it easy are vets.

The real reason that UO will remain a niche game, is that most players gave up playing window mode back in the Doom days in the early 1990's.

A game that covers one quarter of my monitor screen is laughable in 2009.

 

[It Lives]

In the beginning Uo for me was not a hard learning curve just a involved one.

Having so much to learn was a good thing, it is what makes it fun even after 9 years of Uo. I still have things I would like to find the time to do.

This game breathes, slows up a bit in winter and takes off again in spring thru October. We get some players we lose some. Some leave, most come back.

Seeing this kind of thread over and over and over for years along with the UO is dying posts is pretty comic.

I would hate to see Uo go but it wont happen any time soon(not untill 2012).

 

[Mapper]

The only thing simple is you.

Just picking spells in UO for a newb is hard.

The scroll down menus in 2d are a nightmare.

Most people that find it easy are vets.

Your right, I already know how the game works. So my example is flawed there.

The real reason that UO will remain a niche game, is that most players gave up playing window mode back in the Doom days in the early 1990's.

A game that covers one quarter of my monitor screen is laughable in 2009.

The new client fills my 1920x1080 resolution monitor very well. It also has full screen support, However I like to see my start bar as I browse the forums and have ICQ running at the same time as UO.

 

[Harlequin]

Personally, I think lots of things are being done about equalizing equipment (factions arties/imbuing) and skills (haven quests, GGS) between the long time players and new players.

I think the hard part is the learning curve.

Time to give a certain tips thread a bump. http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=136673

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Why UO will never grow

It will but it'll never grow a lot or appreciably. It will never regain its former heights.

It's old!

As long as it remains fun to play and vibrant and interesting? I don't mind.

-Galen's player

 

[dukarlo]

UO will never grow because EA refuses to do anything about the rampant cheats in pvp. How many years has it been since they decided not to put punkbuster in because too many of UOs players were running cheats? Its funny, many of these same people on these forums are the very problem. Now all the input EA gets on improving the game comes from cheats since the cheats probably outnumber the non cheats now.

 

[Sir Morder]

UO will never grow...was what the OP said right? Hmmm, lets see, i've been playin a game name Ultima since 1985. Some of you weren't even born then i'll bet. Yes i played over a 28k modem with a friend on a commadore 64 computer. 24 YEARS LATER!!! Still playin some sort of Ultima game ROFL.

 

[Capt.E]

Looking back at my past experience, uo was damn near impossible when I started. Thank god for this site, and some really cool people that guilded me. It's so hard to tell who is really new, or just wearing crappy armor these days. Honestly, I can't remember the last person I saw ingame that was actually a "new" player. I would most certainly help them out. Some type of seer program would be really cool, the only problem is people taking advantage of it. Also, if it weren't for people(as in rl neighbors) showing me the game, I would have never seen it. Which is truely unfortunate, because it's the best damn game I've ever played. Just my 2 cents.

 

[aarons6]

the only thing that makes this game not grow is the people that are standing in walmart/target/gamestop looking for a new pc game to buy wont see this one on the shelf.

 

[XD4_GL]

For the most part, UO never will grow. Not unless there are some radical changes - or a sequel.

A lot of you forget that we are playing a 12 year old game. That's like 5,000 in human years.

 

[IgorBR]

It's not hard to start. It might be hard to get your first mill, but hey, not that hard.


O played since 99 until 2004. Now im back from nothing. My account has no more than 30 days (new account), all I needed was asking in Luna for a LRC armor and hey, I worked my tame. Now I got an elder mage with 110 tame (jewels) and all I needed was a bit of luck to find a player who gave me a LRC and other time one player gave me a Cu.

Ok, I'm far from elite, but I can play and have a lot of fun. Now I'm working my crafter, grandmastered my mining and I'm going to raise smithy. 3 weeks playing and I have 2 chars that I can do a lot of stuff. Friends? No friends. All of them did quit. I made 2 friends last week, both weaker than me.


Ohh, there's one thing else: I already got a home. Money? Killing Daemons.


And don't say it's easy when you know something because a LOT has changed since 2004.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

The irony is that every MMO suffers from this. The longer it's around, the more content there is, the harder it is for beginning players to get involved in those necessary group learning experiences that help you develop an interest in the game early on.

Even WoW suffers from this... Sure, you can get someone to run you through all of the low-end instances and get you to level 80 in under three weeks. And those very same people that sped you along will then complain about the fact that you don't know your way around instancing. Which, of course, you would have learned had you gone through the game the hard way -- which would be extremely hard due to the lower number of low-level, inexperienced characters.

It's just the way things go.

So, uh, Trebr... can I politely suggest playing the game rather than complaining how it's never going to grow? I mean, the game could grow... if enough attention were put into it in certain areas. "Fixing the economy" isn't going to be one of them. Reducing or deciding not to put in new content isn't the other one.

I mean, you do realize that without "bigger and better," the existing playerbase, yourself included, would have died off in 1999 or 2000? The game HAS to improve by adding new stuff to it simply so that existing players who have done it all continue to have something to do. Otherwise, UO would have a shelf-life of the average console game.

 

[Kiminality]

Most of you are wrong, tbh.
Mind you, you're right, too.

"It's not x, it's y" is basically flawed.
The statement requires a single, exclusive reason for its lack of growth, which is just not true.
I have a packet of biscuits. The number of biscuits in it is going down, because I'm eating them. But, it's also because the number of biscuits in the packet isn't being replenished (and also because the number of biscuits is finite).
Yes, y might seem like a really good reason, but that reason alone isn't enough to discount other reasons.
So, it's all of the above, pretty much.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I can't help wondering how this thread relates to the conversation I had a few days ago with someone who runs a guild to help new players.
She tells me she's busy as heck because of the number of players needing her help, the guild is getting enormous and she's got more newbies under her wing than she's ever had before.

 

[Sebrina]

I'd left UO for a long while and then came back about 5 years ago, when I did I started over with new accounts, in 2 days I'd placed a decent sized house, strictly off picking up all the trash items people throw away (mainly staves and bows from people training Carp and Bowcraft) and selling them to NPC's. From there it was easy to start hording gold and items I could use until I saved up for bigger better equipment and items. UO isn't hard to start in you just have to be able to recognize the opportunities that present themselves as such.

Yep, I remember the old days...years past. You had to actually feed yourself or loose Constitution. As a newbie you could die to the scratches of a Mongbat. If you tried killing a rabbit at the beginning, they could do you in as well. It was always progressionary.

But picking up the trash, being a "rag-picker" was SO profitable then. I remember buying my first boat from the trash that was left around the banks. 10,000 gold in only a few days to buy my first little ship was as they say,"opportunistic." Yet, that was the way it was. I even had friends that got me into the game, but once they showed me how to walk, they left it to ME to start figuring things out.

Well, no one ever really died of hunger, so how hard is the learning curve on an open-ended game like UO?

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I agree with the statement that UO will not noticably grow. But I don't agree with the given reasons.

To my opinion, UO will not grow because:

• The available game clients cannot attract new players to the game. The number of those who prefer an old-looking game for old PCs are not very high.
• There is no real marketing for the game (and I wouldn't advertise a game that has such poor graphics either).
• The Trammel/Felucca split. The player has to make the choice to either play in Candyland (Trammel) or in the facet where people mass murder for sports, and hacks/cheats dominate the scene. This needs to be solved.

Although the game lacks comprehensive and clear guides, I still think that new players can learn and access most of the game content in a relatively short time. I tend to agree with the OP though, that the latest game updates and enhancements mostly favored us veteran players, giving us new toys to play with.

 

[Splup]

Hard to start... I don't think it's about gear.

When you log in UO for first time, if you have no friends to tell you things you have no freaking clue what you are supposed to be doing.

And all the text commands..?

 

[XD4_GL]

Hard to start... I don't think it's about gear.

When you log in UO for first time, if you have no friends to tell you things you have no freaking clue what you are supposed to be doing.

And all the text commands..?

For me, that was a part of what made UO awesome. A huge world where you could be killed, stolen from, etc, at any time and had to make friends.

Unfortunately, MMO's have turned into fancy chatrooms where the only thing to do is grind for gear. And since UO is not the conventional MMO (aka WoW clone) new players give it the cold shoulder.

 

[Fink]

I think like any community UO needs to foster its new members very well in order to grow. Some more directed new-player experience, both npc-driven and player-assisted, would be a good thing. There really needs to be solid support in this area.

The global chat is a step in the right direction. But I noticed everyone by default falls into the General-Felucca channel, and new characters into General-Trammel. On larger shards I suppose that works, but I think on smaller ones it might be fracturing the chat this way. A general "General" would be best as a catch-all default channel.

 

[Mervyn]

Hard to start... I don't think it's about gear.

When you log in UO for first time, if you have no friends to tell you things you have no freaking clue what you are supposed to be doing.

And all the text commands..?

Splup has made the main point, you need a friend who has played the game for years, i at this point would be too ashamed to introduce a friend to this game with all the cheaters.

The enhanced client is quite easy to use for newbies but it doesn't support mages even after expert tweaking.

 

[canary]

I can't help wondering how this thread relates to the conversation I had a few days ago with someone who runs a guild to help new players.
She tells me she's busy as heck because of the number of players needing her help, the guild is getting enormous and she's got more newbies under her wing than she's ever had before.

hahahahahahahaha!

Uhm... yeah. I can tell you that I just bought a monkey who owns a money tree, but it doesn't make it true.

Really, 'more than ever before' could just mean she has two people to assist rather than one. If we are going solely by our OWN personal opinions, I can't tell you, even in New Haven, the last time I saw a (young). It has been ages, and I log in almost every day.

 

[Gunga_Din]

I responded to the MMORPG.COM thread. I was just direct. EVE and UO are about the only games with a true virtual world. The rest are just hand feeding you content without any real sense of community.

Most of these new MMO's are spawned from single player mechanics that you pay monthly fees for.

The business strat is to fool you with a virtual world. Would they rather sell you a single player game for $50 or have you pay $15 per month? 12 x 15 = $180. There, I did the math for you.

All there is to do is level and grind in the new MMO's. I've tried a ton and its the same setup in each one.

Not only that, they fix some of the loot drops to keep you playing. I've witnessed this being done in Warhammer. We would do dungeon runs over and over for set pieces. A group of 6 different classed players would kill a boss and a set piece would drop for none of the classes present. It was so ridiculous. We might do 5 runs and nothing would drop for any of us.

With class specific characters they can really mess with the mechanics of the game to make it almost impossible to acquire anything without playing for over a year. I went through a 3 months stretch of doing dungeon runs, keep raids etc and got 1 piece of armor for my class. Now i'm not a loot ***** or a gear oriented player by any means.... but 3 months? Thats a bit harsh.

The skill based system in UO is the best. I will not play another game with set classes and a leveling system again.

Let them have their fancy graphics and uber titles (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings). I'll stick with UO which has, without a doubt, the best community fromr any of those listed at mmorpg.com. Even though UO has changed a alot from when I first played, its still offers the most freedom in gameplay.

Gunga...........OUT !

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

And the extreme amounts of time required, and all the pieces to put together to be competitive.

Hmm, how much does a 120 swords or magery power scroll cost these days? What about a plus 20 stats scroll?

I dunno...skill gain is easy...getting set up is pretty simple...what is there to complain about? Also, you do not need 120 skill to PvM...

 

[Salya Sin]

What I don't understand... if there is a group of them starting together... what's the problem? I remember starting alone... I knew players but had no way to contact them in the game... I dropped down in Haven... ended up in Moonglow and picked everything up on the ground I could find. My problem was no group to play with so everything was solo... dying sucked then... but with UOguide now... and Stratics (which was a HUGE help then) I made it. If they have a few people... they would do fine.

Did you post on that thread? Did you offer to help them if they came to UO? Did you mention the sites available to learn?