What if Trammel was never created?

[Angel of Sonoma]

what if the devs never created trammel but instead they added a flag to all characters specifying PVP or non-PVP? for example, at login, you get a gump asking you if you want the toon to participate in PVP. in addition to blues and reds, we could have yellow's who are immune from being attacked in fel.

i've often thought the uo economy wouldn't be in it's current state if this approach had been taken.

 

[Hannes Erich]

It was a good idea to separate the playstyles (and many of the personalities that went along with them), but the Fel/Tram facet thing was kind of a bad implementation, and the executive producer during that time has admitted as much. They should have made some new shards instead. Back in 2000 it would have mattered more, because as new expansions released, those PvPers could have looked forward to having every facet instead of little ole Felucca.

Or an alternative: Rather than Felucca, they could have had large swaths of lawless land, with some of it valuable to the sheep (ala EVE Online).

The wild west days had bled about 70% of the players by that point though and the split doubled the player base. I wouldn't expect EA to admit it was a failure any time soon.

 

[FrejaSP]

I fear this yellow would be a mega problem.
A PvP kill and loot an other PvP'er, gives loot to yellow friend.
Hate because yellow can farm safe and get more loot.
Hate because you can't kill a trash talking yellow
There need to be places like Fel, where noone is safe and yellow would not help.
With better loot in Fel zones it could balance it

I believe they did a mega mistake, when they changed the rules on Siege after the wipe
Siege would had been better, if it had been closer to the Fel ruleset and if Siege had way more players, we maybe had got more Dev time to fix our item problem.

 

[Bobar]

Purely my reaction but I wouldn't be playing. Always been Trammel since I started and I never go to Fel.

 

[old gypsy]

I honestly think Trammel is the reason UO is still going. In the end, I doubt that Trammel actually damaged the economy as much as insurance did.

A PvP switch would have been nice, but it didn't happen, and it's too late to change that now.

 

[Smoot]

when UO was created, it was the first. so things werent done according to what we know now is the best for mmorpgs.

Personally, i dont like the "on off" scenerio. its very frustrating when you can be attacked, but someone hogging resources or an area can just turn off the tag and be invulnerable. That being said, its better than nothing, and some people enjoy it.

Ideally, UO would have done very well if set up like WOW servers. (i realize wow has the 2 factions, but the same priciples would have worked for UO)

PVP Server (anyone open to full pvp)
Non-pvp server (pvm only. players cant be attacked by other players)
RP (pvm only with naming and behavioral rules more suited towards those focused on RP)
RP PVP (pvp via toggle / flagging, with additional naming and behavioral rules)

The "RP PVP" servers are the ones being suggested in this thread, where you can toggle your pvp. Its kinda frustrating, but like i said better than nothing. When i played wow i played on a full pvp server, but had one character on a server with some old UO friends who chose the RP PVP toggle server. it was ok, but very awkward and frustrating at times. like, you can experience the fun of pvp, but nothing can really be accomplished by it. because if someone really wants to be an area (like for UO that would be champ spawn, peerless, whatever) they can just turn off the toggle.

The tram / fel split was in my mind, and in the devs hindsite (according to interviews) a horrible way to address the problem of those who wanted a more casual gaming experience.

It would have been far better, and many more players would have been retained over the years if the split were done by server, not by facet. and this would have had to been down from the start, or with free transfers. having to "start over" and go to siege just wasnt realistic for many people. and overall the games progress was geared towards insurance, items, and tram. not towards pvp, so thats another issue.

for UO specifically, i would also make one or two more server types that would adress the issues of insurance.

 

[FrejaSP]

I honestly think Trammel is the reason UO is still going. In the end, I doubt that Trammel actually damaged the economy as much as insurance did.

Trammel is ok and was needed but placing Felucca on same shard was a mistake. I wonder how the game had been now, if they had started with making a few Trammel shards instead of making Siege.
That way, we would had both Trammel and Felucca shards. I loved Atlantic before they added stat loss, there was lots of PvP going on and a lot blue who loved it too. Only thing UO needed was shards for the ones who did not enjoy PvP.
If we had splittet it in Trammel and Felucca shards, I doubt we would had needed Item Insurance. If Trammel players died to monsters, they should have to depend on each others to get their items back or be careful not to face to hard spawn, if they could not afford the lose.

A PvP switch would have been nice, but it didn't happen, and it's too late to change that now.

A PvP switch is not an easy thing, there is a reason young can't go to fel. It would take a lot coding to stop players from abusing the system, and the reason we may never see VvV as a PvP switch.

 

[Smoot]

I honestly think Trammel is the reason UO is still going. In the end, I doubt that Trammel actually damaged the economy as much as insurance did.

A PvP switch would have been nice, but it didn't happen, and it's too late to change that now.

the thing is, tram supported the game for a time when EA cashed in before competition. However it also caused many many players to leave. In todays population, that number of people who left is greater than those currently playing. And the competition from modern games wouldnt have effected this niche market much.

In short, EA cashed in on Tram, but this also led to a lower current game population. Yes, about 90 percent of current players wouldnt be playing, but insead we might have 300% to 2000% of the more hardcore / niche market / competive players. Think starcraft. that game is sustained on pvp and is a very popular professional gamer / tournament game.

 

[Deep Ellum Dan]

I like they kept fel in each shard, i grew up in the old lands, i was never a trammie. I still remember being dread lord and like almost perma red lol. I agree with you @FrejaSP about the "yellows" idea. I can see way too many issues that would imbalance the game with that system, as you did state one obvious imbalance.

 

[Uvtha]

what if the devs never created trammel but instead they added a flag to all characters specifying PVP or non-PVP? for example, at login, you get a gump asking you if you want the toon to participate in PVP. in addition to blues and reds, we could have yellow's who are immune from being attacked in fel.

i've often thought the uo economy wouldn't be in it's current state if this approach had been taken.

Well since a flag would just turn fel into tram, I don't see what the difference would be. Peeps would still be 24/7 farmin.

 

[FrejaSP]

RP PVP (pvp via toggle / flagging, with additional naming and behavioral rules)

When I played WOW, there was no toggle, it was the same as the PvP servers, except you had to be nice, no griefing allowed.
What annoyed me on this servers was, in WoW, you can't speak with your enemy, you have to use the few RP actions, like bow, laugh, dance, etc.
A RP server will need alot GM support, no matter if PvP or not

 

[old gypsy]

Trammel is ok and was needed but placing Felucca on same shard was a mistake. I wonder how the game had been now, if they had started with making a few Trammel shards instead of making Siege.
That way, we would had both Trammel and Felucca shards. I loved Atlantic before they added stat loss, there was lots of PvP going on and a lot blue who loved it too. Only thing UO needed was shards for the ones who did not enjoy PvP.
If we had splittet it in Trammel and Felucca shards, I doubt we would had needed Item Insurance. If Trammel players died to monsters, they should have to depend on each others to get their items back or be careful not to face to hard spawn, if they could not afford the lose.


A PvP switch is not an easy thing, there is a reason young can't go to fel. It would take a lot coding to stop players from abusing the system, and the reason we may never see VvV as a PvP switch.

I understand the points others have made (and may even agree with a few of them). I just think most of the changes being suggested would also require a tremendous amount of coding; and I don't see how our small Dev team could even begin to tackle such changes.

 

[Uvtha]

I fear this yellow would be a mega problem.
A PvP kill and loot an other PvP'er, gives loot to yellow friend.
Hate because yellow can farm safe and get more loot.
Hate because you can't kill a trash talking yellow
There need to be places like Fel, where noone is safe and yellow would not help.
With better loot in Fel zones it could balance it

I believe they did a mega mistake, when they changed the rules on Siege after the wipe
Siege would had been better, if it had been closer to the Fel ruleset and if Siege had way more players, we maybe had got more Dev time to fix our item problem.

None of that is really different than tram other than maybe using yellows as a walking safe. The easy way around that is to only allow people to trade in a guardzone if they don't share flags.

 

[Uvtha]

I honestly think Trammel is the reason UO is still going. In the end, I doubt that Trammel actually damaged the economy as much as insurance did.

A PvP switch would have been nice, but it didn't happen, and it's too late to change that now.

Tram hurt the economy WAYYYYYYYYYY worse than insurance. Way worse. When there are pks running around that puts limits on farming, and it keeps people from running afk scripts. I don't think I ever lost my crap when I died in tram pre insurance. It's not hard to get back to your body.

 

[old gypsy]

Other than the issues already presented, I think one thing has been overlooked completely, yet has had a significant impact on the game over time. With the ability to have seven different characters on just one account, it has become far too easy for a single player to become self-sufficient in a world where player interaction would have otherwise been essential, or nearly so. I tend to believe an expectation of frequent interaction was one of the things that drew people to UO in the first place. Sure, there is some interaction now, but nothing compared to what it once was, when we had a maximum of five character slots.

Anyway, there are any number of things that can be (and have been) discussed pertaining to the direction in which UO has gone. We all have our viewpoints on that. I just can't see a fix for it today, eighteen years down the road. If someone else can, I'll say, "Bravo!"

 

[Lord Frodo]

the thing is, tram supported the game for a time when EA cashed in before competition. However it also caused many many players to leave. In todays population, that number of people who left is greater than those currently playing. And the competition from modern games wouldnt have effected this niche market much.

In short, EA cashed in on Tram, but this also led to a lower current game population. Yes, about 90 percent of current players wouldnt be playing, but insead we might have 300% to 2000% of the more hardcore / niche market / competive players. Think starcraft. that game is sustained on pvp and is a very popular professional gamer / tournament game.

You do understand that before Tram was created that UO was losing subs at an alarming rate. EA/UO had to do something fast or we would not be here today talking about it. If Fel was so great even back then why did the vast majority go to Tram.

 

[Tanivar]

If Fel was so great even back then why did the vast majority go to Tram.

Going to Tram let the vast majority enjoy playing UO which the pkers wouldn't let them do.

With nearly everyone playing Tram of course the pkers couldn't get their jollies and they left.

It is amazing though that the pkers still harp how creating Tram ruined UO. It only ruined UO for the pkers, and it did save the game from closing down due to loss of paying customers.

 

[Deep Ellum Dan]

Going to Tram let the vast majority enjoy playing UO which the pkers wouldn't let them do.

With nearly everyone playing Tram of course the pkers couldn't get their jollies and they left.

It is amazing though that the pkers still harp how creating Tram ruined UO. It only ruined UO for the pkers, and it did save the game from closing down due to loss of paying customers.

LOL stop spreading propaganda when tram was born, us reds still had plenty to do since reds do not necessarily back up other reds LOL - PKs didnt go anywhere... man.. rememver the moonstones? I still have a few on Great Lakes..

 

[FrejaSP]

You do understand that before Tram was created that UO was losing subs at an alarming rate. EA/UO had to do something fast or we would not be here today talking about it. If Fel was so great even back then why did the vast majority go to Tram.

Yes but it was not only Trammel minded players who quit, reds had to put up with stat loss and a lot of them gave up before Trammel too. They tried Guild war, it did not work. I saw old blue anti PK's join the PK guilds and fight side by them instead of making war to them.
If they had removed stat loss, when they added Trammel, I believe more PvP'ers would have stayed and maybe we had seen new facets do have both Trammel and Fel land.

 

[Deep Ellum Dan]

Ahh. Forgot about stat loss

 

[Prince Erik]

I fear this yellow would be a mega problem.

I believe they did a mega mistake, when they changed the rules on Siege after the wipe
Siege would had been better, if it had been closer to the Fel ruleset and if Siege had way more players, we maybe had got more Dev time to fix our item problem.

I agree, Freja, I was an original SP member on day one and the time from server up to the first wipe was some of my favorite memories in UO. Everyone was a newbie with 0 resources working together to build something - it was so much fun. After the wipe, IMHO, things just weren't the same.

-P.E.

 

[Merus]

I would have much preferred a mix of both... Something like all overland areas would have tram rules ( under the King's protection), all dungeon areas have fel rules (evil holds sway here).

Overland areas could have had additional pvm content added... Think Orc forts, brigand camps, random invasions... Even things like the turtle spawn and shadowguard.

Dungeons could have been much like they were/are... Just a little more dangerous, with bands of roving pks and pk hunters.

Would have been the way I did it.

 

[CrazyDave]

I started on January 1, 1999 and I really enjoyed those days before the split. Always watching my back to make sure my miner didn't get clobbered. Chatting with the guy/girl that just clobbered my miner. It seemed like I made a lot more friends...and the thrill level was definitely higher. Then came the time that I would get PK'ed and then trash talked for really no reason. Over and Over. I really didn't mind getting killed. I just wish the person would have stopped and chatted a bit. I saw the wisdom of creating a new land. I just wish it didn't have to happen because of the few childish folks that didn't want to be social.

Now, I have more options, so, I take the easy way out and stay in Trammel most nights. If I do venture into Felucca, it's not long before I'm bored and back home. It's just not the same. So, I don't think the split was the problem. It was the change in the character base.

 

[FrejaSP]

Then came the time that I would get PK'ed and then trash talked for really no reason. Over and Over. I really didn't mind getting killed. I just wish the person would have stopped and chatted a bit.

That was one of the bad effect of Stat Loss, the PK's could not risk to die, so they had to run in ganks and they could not stay and chat and wait for the Anti PK's to show up. Also, there become a lot hate between blue and red because the reds blamed the blues for stat loss and for ruining their chars.

Before stat loss was added, the PK's did not mind to offer a fair fight to their victims or shat with them after. The risk for anti pk's was a good thing, as that would give them a good fight.

Also after Trammel, Felucca lost the community feeling, player towns died and the good fights around them was gone.

 

[Tanivar]

The risk for anti pk's was a good thing, as that would give them a good fight.

Never met a pk who wanted a good fight, those are urban legends, pkers want easy victims with tons of loot that they can trash talk.

Only ones that like a good fight are the PvPers.

 

[Merlin]

Having a toggle on/off would allow people to be able to farm spawns without fear of a raid. The possibility of increased risk is why the scroll and primer drops on spawns in Fel are supposed to yield better results than Tram. I like that there is a risk of getting raided and that my heart beat jumps when I see a few reds come running in on a spawn I am doing. It sucks to get killed and lose scrolls, but that risk is part of the fun of it. Let's not dumb this down because some people get too butt hurt about getting PK'ed.

We don't need yet another easy button in this game. Even though it isn't perfect, keep the current system as is.

 

[Smoot]

You do understand that before Tram was created that UO was losing subs at an alarming rate. EA/UO had to do something fast or we would not be here today talking about it. If Fel was so great even back then why did the vast majority go to Tram.

youd have to look at the numbers now. thats what im getting at. it was a good business decision at the time. but say there were 1million subs, and 500k would have left but didnt because of tram. i still stick to my analysis that UO did not do well once the huge competive mmo market took away those players that stayed for a short time becuause of the creation of tram; the game would have done better (currently, not at the time there was little competition) if it had remained popular for the niche hardcore gamer market (something it totally lacks currently for many reasons, but it all started with tram and the dev decisions made based on trammel gameplay)

Of course its just an interesting thing to talk about now, we could get into discussions of the most popular free shards, the numbers of players on those pvp servers, and compare that with if the production game had tailored the game over the years to gain numbers over what those free shards reflect currently, but thats a huge discussion, and only that, a discussion. because we can never really know what "might" have happened, and what form the game would be in now if there were never a trammel.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

What's Trammel? It doesn't show up on my shard's facet list...la

 

[Zosimus]

Pointing fingers at reds or blues isn't the reason what happened to UO. More MMO's came out that appealed and gave players more options to play games that was more suited to their liking and had better features that seperated PvP and PvM was a major factor. There are 3 different types of mmo players, PvP only, PvM only and PvX. For the ones who do not know PvX is both PvP and PvM combined and much more.

Fel is a playstyle . Dangerous, exciting, fun, adrenaline rush at most times. There is bad that comes with it like the harassment and childish trash talk. At least you can try to kill the harasser.

Tram is a playstyle. Easy mode for most things UO, fun, exciting, adrenaline rush. There is bad that comes with it like the harassment and childish trash talk. You have to page a GM and hope it's taken care of or email Mesanna.

 

[Tanivar]

because we can never really know what "might" have happened, and what form the game would be in now if there were never a trammel.

With the mass exodus of paying customers from the game going on pre-tram, we can make a real likely guess.

 

[Merlin]

With the mass exodus of paying customers from the game going on pre-tram, we can make a real likely guess.

Or maybe it was that other MMO's started becoming available and many had comparable or better graphics & gameplay?

Clearly alot of people signed up when UO was Fel-only. It is only natural video game attrition that people move onto other games. I think blaming pre-Tram loss of subs on Fel-style of play is a giant DERP argument. What then is the explanation for large subscription drop post-Tram?

 

[Deadly Serious]

It states on uoguide that felucca gives a luck buff of 1000 + extra on your properties so for anyone trying to get some perfect rng on the go you have to hunt in fel. So with that in mind and obviously champ spawns it seems like too many are ***** footing around happy with getting less quality loot and are not involving themselves in champs spawns to make the pvp'ers out there keep griping on about there being a trammel/fel thing.

I'm not a pvper (yet) but i'm very happy with all of the games other many elements and i do chance going to fel to get better kit or do champ spawns but i'm confident that the ones who may/keep barking on about better benefits to pvp there are better games out there for you, i played Lineage 2 for years (in europe not NA that is the most corrupt game server on the planet) and that imo is pvp heaven.

 

[kelmo]

 

[old gypsy]

Ahh... "I'm not sure of anything any more"...

Perhaps UO needs a Clarence?

 

[Tanivar]

What then is the explanation for large subscription drop post-Tram?

I'd say a pretty safe bet would be the Act of Stupidity known as AoS.

 

[MalagAste]

I'd say a pretty safe bet would be the Act of Stupidity known as AoS.

I agree when things were simple and you could easily get or make new gear and be back out but the focus was on the thrill of the hunt.

I remember most fondly things like hunting Dragons and Demons and such as a guild.. but it's hard to do a guild hunt anymore because most things are soloable that isn't a lot of fun for 10 people to stand about picking your nose for 10 min waiting for something to spawn and kill it in .5 seconds to wait another 10 min for it to respawn...

If things respawned quicker then folk scream about the economy... gathering keys is a pain and now with so few people keys last a week but even then it's hard to say you could get 10 people to do something and all be on at one time to do it before keys expire and then once again you are faced with if you take 10 people in to do Lady M or Mel or something... Even the Styngian Dragon that battle lasts 2 to 5 min what do you do for the rest of the evening? It takes longer to gather everyone up for the fight than it takes to kill it. But then you go the other end of the scale and try to get them to go do the roof and it takes too long to kill all 4 mobs and then most the time no one gets anything then people get irritated because it takes too long for too little reward... and it is just no matter what they do... it's not enough, it's not right, it doesn't work... and someone finds a way to solo it or exploit something and ruin it for everyone else.

 

[DJAd]

It takes longer to gather everyone up for the fight than it takes to kill it.

So true. I swear every time I have done Medusa in the past I've spent more time waiting down at the altar for people who are "just coming" than fighting the boss itself.

 

[Merlin]

So true. I swear every time I have done Medusa in the past I've spent more time waiting down at the altar for people who are "just coming" than fighting the boss itself.

"Oh I have to make a 100% elemental weapon before I fight that.",
"Oh I have to repair five pieces of armor. Can someone log onto a crafter and do that for me?",
"Oh I've never done that before, can someone help me with the entry quest and explain the entire encounter to me step by step?"

Herding cats, I tell ya.

and it is just no matter what they do... it's not enough, it's not right, it doesn't work... and someone finds a way to solo it or exploit something and ruin it for everyone else.

I agree 100% here. No matter what is changed or updated in this game, people moan and groan to no end. Fix one thing, something else breaks... or someone's template is no longer as good, or someone has to change their precious play style slightly. The developers can't catch a break.

 

[Cymidei]

I really like the solution of opening a PvE server or having vast areas of free land like Eve Online. I wish they had done that. Would have saved a lot of folks! I remember for example when the Fel/Tram split happened. We used to have an awesome role-played city on Baja called Lumaria, near the Shrine of Sacrifice, which was Elf themed.

The split happened, everyone left for Tram and Felucca got trashed with dead bushes, skulls and a hideous map. It ruined Lumaria and I remember the leader of the guild saying "no one will ever think of this as a beautiful city anymore." Many just left their old guilds behind and never went back to Felucca. Some were able to thrive though but really not the best choice for anyone.

No one ever seems to talk about...WHY most people prefer Trammel other than farming. It's about more than that and you know it. If more PVE'ers and PKs had courtesy, and respect for their fellow players instead of viewing them as "prey" they would have more people around. People will play where they are having fun.

 

[Tanivar]

No one ever seems to talk about...WHY most people prefer Trammel other than farming. It's about more than that and you know it. If more PVE'ers and PKs had courtesy, and respect for their fellow players instead of viewing them as "prey" they would have more people around. People will play where they are having fun.

+1

 

[JC the Builder]

Another "What If" scenario someone once mentioned was things could have turned out a lot different if Trammel became the PVP facet and Felucca was the safe zone (or even reverse the names so Felucca became the "new" facet). A lot of player run towns died out because of everyone moving to Trammel.

It would have been a lot easier for PVPers to move rather than move the entire playerbase.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

A lot of player run towns died out because of everyone moving to Trammel.

It's been years since I was on Atlantic for any time, what happened to your town/museum on Ice Island?...la

 

[JC the Builder]

It's been years since I was on Atlantic for any time, what happened to your town/museum on Ice Island?...la

The Wintermoor Museums still stand. However, they are mostly undecorated, thus kept private.

If anyone every wants to decorate them let me know. Would like to re-open them.

 

[SugarMMM]

I honestly think Trammel is the reason UO is still going. In the end, I doubt that Trammel actually damaged the economy as much as insurance did.

I agree with this because back in the day I feel that people were screaming for more land for housing but the Trammel rule set was also a bonus!

IMO in addition to insurance I also feel that the scripters/dupers and shard transfers ruined the economy.

While we're talking about PVP and Felucca I really wish they'd bring the bounty system back!

 

[Giggles]

I'm just here to say...
Felucca ROCKS!

That is all.

 

[SugarMMM]

I agree I love my Felucca on Sonoma!

 

[Spock's Beard]

You know what's funny? The way every bitchy oldschool PK insists that there was TOTALLY a huge and viable market for full-gank PVP even though absolutely nothing that has happened in the last fifteen years supports such a notion. Whenever you pin one of them down, the best they can say is "Well this freeshard has some people on it!"

I mean god, fifteen years, and that's still the best example they can think of.

 

[FrejaSP]

Never met a pk who wanted a good fight, those are urban legends, pkers want easy victims with tons of loot that they can trash talk.

Only ones that like a good fight are the PvPers.

Hmm, what about Bo, Max Blackoak, Lyssa, Kheloth and alot more of our Siege PK's? Did you ever die to a PK on Siege?

 

[MalagAste]

Hmm, what about Bo, Max Blackoak, Lyssa, Kheloth and alot more of our Siege PK's? Did you ever die to a PK on Siege?

Yes. Standing outside Tokuno wearing nothing ..... got PK'd... didn't have anything for them to loot so no idea why they killed me. Person I was with rezed me and then the PK apologized.... but it still was totally senseless. I didn't give them a count saw no point in it. They didn't earn one. Kill an unarmed, completely naked player???

So you going to tell me that this person was wanting a "good fight"?

 

[FrejaSP]

So you going to tell me that this person was wanting a "good fight"?

PK's like to kill all that move. If they do not loot, what is the problem then?

Before Trammel, it was different, the players could not choose a server with only consent PvP. You did know Siege was non consent PvP.

Now I do not know your name on Siege, but if I had seen you on my forest a few years ago, I would had killed you too, ressed you and chatted after. Sure I would had affed a little RP but noone force a PK to do that.

Maybe the PK just wanted to give you a welcome to Siege hugs and see if you could handle Siege or you would start to cry and trash talk him