[Fencing] What about fencing?

[Ivory Norwind]

I have a character who is an archer. I'm tired and I want to change. All the skills are fine (I'm Paladin), but I'm just undecided whether to choose fencing or swordsmanship. I do only PvM. I like fencing but from what I've read so far most of you use swordmanship and not fencing. Is fencing that weak?

 

[Anon McDougle]

Less damage with fencing a parry/feint ninja strong

 

[Ivory Norwind]

Less damage with fencing a parry/feint ninja strong

I don't like ninja skill. Now I havee 120 archery, 120 anatomy, 120 tactics, 100 Chivalry, 100 Healing, 100 Res Spell and 100 Parrying. With some jewel. I like this template. I want only change archery with fencing or Swordmanship. Which one performs better?

 

[Anon McDougle]

You need ninja or bushido to use feint

 

[Ivory Norwind]

You need ninja or bushido to use feint

I know I'm ignorant but when I was on Europa I always played with the tamer, the fisher and 2 t-Hunter. I had some necro, fisherman and ninja characters but I never played them, or almost nothing. So I don't know what feint means. The translator tells me 'Finta' but it certainly means something else. Can you explain to me what a feint weapon is? Forgive my ignorance

 

[Anon McDougle]

la finta riduce della metà il danno che subisci

 

[Draza]

Maces are strong, with the mastery, you could do very good with your current build with a hit fatigue weapon.

 

[Haraldur Tyrsson]

I'd argue that fencing actually has the best special move combo available for whips vs swords or macing in pvm. Armor pierce is a pretty nice special move!

The fencing masteries are okay but I prefer the macing masteries. Stagger + Hit Fatigue + healing with bandages or chiv spells work really well together. Especially on really tough monsters like the paragons during the ToT style events.

Feint is a special move that reduces the monsters damage by a %. Very good special move. And the leafblade (a fencing weapon) has feint and armor ignore, a pretty good combo. You do need ninja or bushido skill to use feint.

Most fencing weapons are really fast. Meaning you need less stam or ssi to swing them at max speed. Since they are so fast, they have lower base damages. Macing and Swords are much slower but have much higher base damages. It's getting much easier to max out swing speed on weapons so slower is actually better here. Next you may want to look at special move combos. That's one of the main reasons so many warriors with bushido carry double axes. Double Strike + WW is the perfect combo.

 

[Pawain]

I have a character who is an archer. I'm tired and I want to change. All the skills are fine (I'm Paladin), but I'm just undecided whether to choose fencing or swordsmanship. I do only PvM. I like fencing but from what I've read so far most of you use swordmanship and not fencing. Is fencing that weak?

Each melee weapon skill has the same base template. Each weapon skill can do the same weapon specials.

One difference is the weapons that do the the specials for that weapon skill.
The 3 main specials in PvM are
Armor Ignore
Double Strike
Whirlwind

Look at each of those specials. Special Moves – Ultima Online

​

Description
Icon	Mana	Primary	Secondary
Armor Ignore – This special move allows the skilled warrior to bypass all of their target’s armor resistance, for one shot only. The Armor Ignore shot does slightly less damage than normal (90% of normal damage). Against a heavily armored opponent, this ability is a big win, but when used against a very lightly armored foe, it might be better to use a standard strike. PvP Only: Armor Ignore direct damage cap on melee weapons is 35, on ranged weapons is 30. This cap applies not only to the player but also to the player’s mount, if the mount is a one slot creature.
	30​	(S)Hatchet, Long Sword, Bladed Staff, Stone War Sword, (M)Hammer Pick, War Axe, Disc Mace, (F)Kryss, Spear, Shortblade, (A)Composite Bow, (T)Soul Glaive	(S)Broadsword, Katana, (F)Leafblade

​

Double Strike – The highly skilled warrior can use this special attack to make two quick swings in succession. Landing both blows would be devastating! 10% damage penalty
	30​	(A)Repeating Crossbow, (F)Double Bladed Staff, Dual Pointed Spear,(M)Maul, Quarterstaff, Glass Staff (S)2 Handed Axe, Crescent Blade, Double Axe, Katana, Pick Axe, Scimitar, Dual Short Axes	(S)Daisho, Wakizashi (M)Nunchaku,

​

Whirlwind Attack – A godsend to a warrior surrounded, the Whirlwind Attack allows the fighter to strike at all nearby targets in one mighty spinning swing. Will not accidentally strike innocents, allies, or party members. Bushido gives a damage bonus to the Whirlwind special move. This bonus is capped at 100. The bonus is determined by the following formula: Damage Bonus = (Bushido/60* number of opponents)²
	15​	(M)Black Staff, War Hammer, (S)Halberd, Large Battle Axe, Radiant Scimitar, Paladin Sword, Gargish Talwar (F)Kama,	(S)Double Axe (M) Barbed Whip (S) Bladed Whip (F) Spiked Whip

Compare the weapons for each weapon skill for damage and speed. And how many weapons you need for all 3.
Can see all weapon values here: Weapons – Ultima Online

Swordsman only need 2 weapons to get those specials. Bladed Staff and Double Axe
Bladed Staff does Armor Ignore
Double Axe does Whirlwind and Double Strike
Those are 2 hand weapons so you can use Bushido without a shield to get high Defense Chance.
These two weapons are also high damage weapons and have high speed.
Swords also has great 1 hand weapons for AI. Long Sword and Broadsword.

Fencing requires 3 weapons. The fencing weapons do less damage than an equivalent swords weapon.
Armor Ignore: Common used are 2 hand Spear and 1 Hand Leaf Blade.
Double Strike: 2 hand Double Bladed Staff
Whirlwind: They made the Whip because Kamas have very low damage.

Mace also requires 3 weapons. Also most do lower damage than Swords equivalent weapons.
Armor Ignore: Common Hammer Pick has highest damage
Double Strike: Maul is highest damage but slower than Nunchaku
Whirlwind: Whip is second highest damage. War Hammer does more damage but is slower.

Which weapon set is the best?

Swordsman has the highest damaging weapons at the lowest speed requirement.

Max speed is achieved by 180 Stamina 20 SSI or 210 Stamina 10 SSI

A max speed Swordsman will do the most damage of the three templates at these Stamina and SSI.

You can build a Fencer or Macer with the same Stamina and SSI as a Swordsman but they will do less damage.

A Macer using a War Hammer will do more Whirlwind damage but you need 230 Stamina with 30 SSI to get Max speed.

The weapon choices make Swordsman the most common Melee Template.

Therefore you can easily find Swords weapons that do elemental damage on Vendor Search on Atlantic.
Fencing and Macing weapons are uncommon to find with elemental damage. So you have to make your own or talk a friend into making them.

The second difference is the Masteries:

Skill Masteries – Ultima Online

uo.com

The most used Sword mastery is:
Onslaught The swordsman executes an onslaught of attacks on their opponent reducing one of their victim’s resists based on the swordsman’s swordsmanship and tactics skill and the damage type of the weapon used for a duration based on mastery level

I am not sure if Focused Eye would be very useful with 45 HCI.

The most common Fencing Mastery is:
Pierce The fencer executes a piercing move on their opponent causing a stamina debuff and stamina drain on the victim based on the fencer’s fencing and tactics Skill, and mastery level.

Thrust benefit depends on the Resist values of the target and your weapon damage type. because it reduces the targets physical resist.

Both Macing Masteries are useful.
Stagger The mace fighter executes a staggering move on their opponent causing a swing speed increase debuff and massive damage to the victim based on mastery level.
Toughness Toggle ability that provides the mace fighter with increased hit points based on the mace fighter’s tactics and mace fighting skill, and mastery level that consumes mana while active.

I have all 3 types of melee warriors, my favorite is a Macer using the War Hammer. I love the Hit Point increase from Toughness (even higher HP when I get a Bless) and the SSI debuff from Stagger. Helps with Dynamic Dungeon Paragons. The new Hammer Pick is awesome!



In conclusion, All 3 Melee types can use the same basic template. The weapon specials on the specific weapon types determine which melee template will do the most damage at an achievable maximum speed for you.

Swords is the most commonly used template because it does the most damage at the lowest speed requirement. You can find elemental damage swords weapons much easier than the other two.

I say, make one of each!


Here is my Swordsman damage with AI setup:
Bladed Staff


Here is the Macer damage with AI setup:
Hammer Pick


My Fencer does less AI damage with his Leaf Blade.

 

[Ivory Norwind]

Each melee weapon skill has the same base template. Each weapon skill can do the same weapon specials.

One difference is the weapons that do the the specials for that weapon skill.
The 3 main specials in PvM are
Armor Ignore
Double Strike
Whirlwind

Look at each of those specials. Special Moves – Ultima Online

My Fencer does less AI damage with his Leaf Blade.

I've read everything and I think I'll opt for swordmamship. Thanks for your patience and for the whole eye-opening post. So no fencer. Alone, better to be more powerful. Now I just have to decide whether to put ninja or bushido. I don't like either of them. On Europa I had a Macer, a Fencer and a Swordman. But I didn't play them much, they were too weak (I play solo). That's why I needed some serious help Thank you again!!

 

[Pawain]

Now you make your slayer weapons with the best elemental damage and get slayer talismans. So you can kill more effectively.

Most go with Bushido. For higher damage from honor and less damage taken from evade.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

The best PvM weps for Fencing are the Leaf Blade (Feint+AI) and Spiked Whip (AP+WW). Both are 1 Handed. Their best DS wep is the Double Bladed Stave (DS+IS). For Masteries, they have Pierce and Thrust.
At 120 Fencing/120 Tact/Lvl 3 Mastery, Pierce will damage the victim's Stamina by 40% of max over 10 seconds. This can be very effective against extremely high Stamina foes, such as Anlorvaglem (which have over 1,000 Stamina, and so take at least 400 Stamina damage over 10 secs from Pierce). 3 Pierces over a 30 second period, and most foes are completely Stam drained (unless they have extremely high Stamina Regen).
At Lvl 3 Fencing Mastery, Thrust is a toggled ability that causes a stacking +18% Damage Modifier buff (capped at +54%) per auto attack, while also reducing the victim's attack damage by a stacking -18% (capped at -50%) for 8 seconds. Successive hits increase the stack (up to cap), but do not refresh the duration. So long as Thrust is toggled on, each attack will consume 20 Mana (subject to LMC). The damage debuff on the victim does not stack with Feint.

 

[Grugot]

When I get 120 PS for macing I just drop them in Luna. They are worthless on our shard. Not sure who does macing. Don't see any fencing either.

 

[Pawain]

When I get 120 PS for macing I just drop them in Luna. They are worthless on our shard. Not sure who does macing. Don't see any fencing either.

Most players like easy button builds. That's why I said that was a significant factor for making Fencing or Macing. Less popular, fewer elemental weapons.

 

[Anon McDougle]

Macing is as strong as swords...

 

[Merlin]

I have a character who is an archer. I'm tired and I want to change. All the skills are fine (I'm Paladin), but I'm just undecided whether to choose fencing or swordsmanship. I do only PvM. I like fencing but from what I've read so far most of you use swordmanship and not fencing. Is fencing that weak?

That is my Poison Fencer build. While this build was mainly for PVP, I've had fair amount of PVM success with it as well.

This particular set up is getting 100 points for jewels and items. You could easily remove Poisoning (as it doesn't have much use in PVM) and have similar set up. Perhaps decrease Anat and Resist a bit in favor of more Tactics. Another option would be to leave Poisoning and remove Bushido so you could use one-handed weapon and Shield.

Theory of the build is to be able to use bandages from Healing and Confidence from Bushido. I use the Bushido mastery for the more effective Confidence spell. You'll be doing lots of damage using either using Double Bladed Stave or Spears. If you remove Bushido, you could do Shield and a Kryss for AI & infectious strike. Honor everything you can when fighting. With Parrying and Resist Spells high, you'll have pretty solid defense as long as you have decent enough suit.

Good luck!

 

[Pawain]

Macing is as strong as swords...

Prove that. The only Macing weapon that could do more damage than a near equivalent sword weapon is the War Hammer for WW. But it requires more stamina to swing at max speed which means the player may not have as much strength so a whip could be the same WW damage depending on what a player has access to.

So, for AI and DS the sword weapon does more damage than the Mace weapon for those. I showed this in a picture above.

Do you not believe the damage ranges on the weapons, I also posted a link to those.

Or do you not use max damage and speed when you play? Or do you just use whips on all templates?

You could go to TC and use the same toon and switch weapons and weapon skill and you will see the most damage weapon for swords does higher base damage for AI and DS than the other classes.

 

[Anon McDougle]

I didn't say anything about damage but stagger is the single best mastery spell in game if you had a macer you'd know

 

[Pawain]

I didn't say anything about damage but stagger is the single best mastery spell in game if you had a macer you'd know

All the Masteries have advantages. Players chose swordsmen before masteries came out. So they are the majority so a new player can find blank elemental weapons for them.

There are no Blank elemental Mace Weapons on Atl except a few Fire.

I prefer Macing because of toughness.

 

[Anon McDougle]

All the Masteries have advantages. Players chose swordsmen before masteries came out. So they are the majority so a new player can find blank elemental weapons for them.

There are no Blank elemental Mace Weapons on Atl except a few Fire.

I prefer Macing because of toughness.

All my melee characters are paladin we don't care about elemental weapons

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

When I get 120 PS for macing I just drop them in Luna. They are worthless on our shard. Not sure who does macing. Don't see any fencing either.

Swords is more for pure offense DPS with it's Onslaught mastery increasing damage output in combination with DS, which the offense play style synergizes well with Sampire due to how they self heal from damage output with Vampire Form.
Macing is more of a defensive Tank playstyle with Stagger and Toughness. Stagger pairs extremely well with Hit Fatigue and Healing skill, because it can slow down an opponent's attack speed so much that you can literally 4 sec bandy self heal between their swings. This is excellent against extremely hard hitting foes (Paroxy, Stygian Dragon, Fencer Captains, Macer Captains, certain Treasures Paragons, etc), or foes that are immune to Life Leech (like the Treasures Paragons). The extra max HP from Toughness can also allow you to survive some very nasty burst combos (such as Paragon Dragon Breath+Claw attack that land at same time).
Two different styles that both have their purposes.

All my melee characters are paladin we don't care about elemental weapons

If it's a Swordsman with Chiv, then you should. Onslaught lowers the victim's Resist by up to -20, and which Resist is lowered depends upon the Elemental damage type of the weapon you're wielding. Consecrate Weapon does not affect which Resist is lowered. Onslaught+3-4x Double Strike rotation can out DPS AI spam against a lot of foes (except for ones with either extremely high Resists, or extremely high Wrest/Parry). Not to mention everyone else attacking that same foe, can also deal more damage when targeting the victim's weakest Resist, so Onslaught can increase group damage output as well.

 

[Pawain]

Each melee template has strengths, the weaknesses from one to the other are minimal in general. Each template has advantages with certain mobs and playstyles.

I prefer using Toughness and Stagger to become more of a tank. I can stay alive longer with my slower reflexes using my Macer when fighting tough mobs. By using the best weapon types and building suits that give me maximum damage and defense, I can kill the hell out of stuff.

Can you kill lots of things with each template. Yes
Can you get drops from Dynamic events with each template. Yes
Can you have fun with each template. Yes That's the idea!

My opinion is make each type of melee warrior and play them all. I feel the same way about each pet template and and pet type. You need a lot of armor to make a bunch of dex templates, and luckily the devs have provided some sweet armor in the last few years. So the need for getting armor for our dexxers in bulk has kept us playing these events.

Lots of good basic information and thanks to @PlayerSkillFTW there is lots of good advanced information about game mechanics in this thread.

 

[ultima2005]

I wanted to bump this as I finally trained fencing to test out the new forks. It definitely was a fun experiment - though I had one big question for fencers out there.

After a lot of testing, I found I generally liked two skill setups:

1. 120 Fencing / 120 Tactics / 120 Anatomy / 120 Chiv (105 real) / 100 Resist (85 real) / 100 Necro or 115 healing (100 real) / 100 Parry (70 real)
2. 120 Fencing / 120 Tactics / 115 Ninja (105 real) / 120 Chiv (105 real) / 100 Resist (85 real) / 100 Anatomy (85 real) / 100 Necro or 115 Healing (100 real) - this is a 4/6 build

Which build I went with depended on the single target weapon I was using. If I used one of the forks, I would use the build with parry. If I used a leafblade, I went with the 4/6 build with ninja instead of parry and relied on mirror images. I generally used a Bulwark of Light shield, and my stats were solid - 150 HP, 200 stamina, 110 mana, 45/45, 35% SSI, etc.

There are three great weapons I've found with fencing: the leafblade, the new forks, and the whip. The leafblade is an incredibly flexible weapon. If you need more defense, you can rely more on feint; if not, chain more AIs. The forks are really good because you can target the MOBs weakest resist and chain DS while maintaining Pierce. The extra damage caused by the forks hit spells really adds up in long fights and helps make up for the forks' low basesline damage. The whip, in my opinion, is the best 1 handed weapon in the game with WW - armor pierce is a really good special.

Here's my question - I tested Thrust a great deal, and while I was able to see the damage modifier increase, the damage reduction percentage never moved from 18%. My understanding is it is suppose to go up to 50%. I tried Thrust with different weapons and different attacks - including just a base physical auto attack without consecrate weapon - and the damage reduction stayed at 18%. What am I missing?

 

[Anon McDougle]

A parry fieint ninja near impossible to kill unfortunately the damage output too low especially in kill fast event situations