Weapon Specials and Mana

[Guest]

I just wanted some opinions on mana and weapon specials.

I have a theory about the removal of mana cost on specials. Think of it like this if a dexxer no longer needed mana to perform a weapon specials BUT had a chance to fail the special and variable wait times between using specials. What would the effect be on the game? You still need the skills to use a specials have a chance to fail using it and much like a casting delay you must wait to stop the chain specials going off.

Now any lethal poisoner would love that because he could add the extra stat points to strength and dexterity to make up for not having any spells.

Those using chiv and bushido are happy because now they only need mana FOR spells not spells and specials both.

Mages are happy because they are no longer shredded with chain AIs and have a better chance to cast between getting hit if the specials fails or the dexxer is waiting to perform the special.

Basically it sounds great in theory but what possible flaws might come about would this make anything to powerful in the process? If so what and what are some possible fixes for that issue?

 

[Crystilastmous]

You haven't been paying attention to PVP have you?


/fail.

End This Idea.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

You haven't been paying attention to PVP have you?


/fail.

End This Idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please try to use even an ounce of common sense when posting please.

 

[Crystilastmous]

Please use common sense when suggesting that we implement a drastic change to pvp and pvm alike. The idea is hogwash.

You wanted opinions didn't you? Don't like it if I disagree? =(

 

[MysticSim]

bad idea.. sorry.

if you remove the mana from specials, you have to remove it from chiv, bushido, magery. its a little something called balance.

Its good now that the mana is consumed when your using a special move. Thats what makes it interesting. Removing mana from special moves would make everyone into warriors, and have everyone weilding god weapons, and the one who kills the other with the special move wins.

Sorry, Bad idea.

 

[ValenOfAtlantic]

Let me say first as to take the strain off anyone having to call me it in following posts. I am a trammie and know next to nothing about the current PVP situation. I don't care what connotation it has but thats what i am. I've played ten years now and prefer tram as i dealt with enough jerks grief killing in the old days.

Now onto my opinion. I like the direction this idea suggests, if not the exact implementation the OP used. My main melee is a Bushido/Pally. I use a good portion of my mana for those spells, and rarely bother using "special moves" because the cost for some of them is ridiculous as compared to my actual spells. I think lowering the mana values for the moves and giving them a chance to fail (and IMHO if the ability failed i think NO damage should be dealt) just like most spells, would be a great idea (obviously the amount of decrease, and fail rate would require testing/balancing and should scale with skill numbers).

MysticSim: I can understand your argument about why take away cost on specials, and not all other abilities. But as far as a change like that (or like mine above) turning everyone into warriors with he who uses the most specials wins. I would think that the second part of the change (allowing the specials a chance to fail) Would make people rely less on the specials as there would be a chance that your effort would be for nothing, thus allowing your opponent to get in an extra hit. And the way i see PvP (in my limited view) I would think every hit counts.

Crystilastmous: if your going to offer an opinion the least that can be done is include your reasoning as to why you feel it is a bad idea.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Crystilastmous: if your going to offer an opinion the least that can be done is include your reasoning as to why you feel it is a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
Allow me. The reasone is as follows:


Armor ignore + Armor ignore + Armor ingore = dead

It's bad enough there are sploits to avoid mana consumption for specials as it is.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

I think it's a very bad idea.

(all comments are PvP specific)

It would create a lot of debate about balancing/fail/success chance of specials drawing attention and resources away from things that do need looking at.

If specials failed at any rate, they would be too unreliable to bother with. Driving people to play necro/dexxers, spell weave/dexxers etc. Standard dexxers currently have their place and use but this change would shift it in favour of hybrid only dexxers which is unbalancing imo as currently you get a mixture of both. (also many people probably don't want to play their dexxers like a caster)

It would also pretty much nerf dismount archers which - when they did the big change to death strike/nerve etc - came out as their own class.

The mana for the dexxer isn't an issue, their getting a penalty (fail chance at specials) but with no benefit - they'd have no mana specials anyway if they fail it.

I don't think any lethal poisoner would love this, take a standard nox/fencer for example. Then tell them their going to fail infectious and armor ignore but get no mana cost for their specials... infectious costs next to nothing anyway, spamming ai after the infectious is the bread and butter of that template. Theres no benefit in it. The extra stats in str/dex aren't needed... this is a fencer with a kryss... they swing at cap with like 90 stam anyway and the base damage on most fencing weapons is so low that the str isn't going to make much difference.

Chiv &amp; Bushido aren't used in the same way, giving someone more mana to spam a 9 damage holy light but taking away their success at ai for 35 or disarm or bleed will not go down well.

You could achieve the same result by just adjusting the mana costs, but tbh I don't think it needs it.

 

[Guest]

Again let me reiterate why I said this is good. JUST removing a mana cost WOULD be bad but putting in a delay to stop specials from being chained and giving specials a chance to fail would balance this out a lot. You should not remove the mana from dexxer magic and I will state why.

If I have no magic and another player has chiv or bush they need to be consuming mana to use it or else they would just have an extra ability over my character at no cost at all.

If I am a poisoner with no chiv or bush and I go against a chiv sammy with the changes I have in I can up my str and dex where the chiv sammy must still use mana so they lose str and dex to be able to use those spells.

At any rate you need to really look at what I am saying not just look at the remove mana part and think that the entire post is nothign more than a pancake to get rid of mana on specials so we can abuse them.

 

[Guest]

Make Specials cost Stamina instead of Mana. Person loses Stamina and attack's slower because of the exertion of using a Special Move. Although Stam Leech/Divine Fury/Total Refresh Pots would need to be looked at if this was to happen.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Make Specials cost Stamina instead of Mana. Person loses Stamina and attack's slower because of the exertion of using a Special Move. Although Stam Leech/Divine Fury/Total Refresh Pots would need to be looked at if this was to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah that's not a half bad idea and it makes a lot of sense. You would also have to be careful using them with necro players around because of the added strangle damage.

 

[eolsunder1]

Already talked about for years, but zilch so far, so probably never any change to making some special moves stamina redundant instead of mana.

its kinda of stupid that many weapon moves require mana, especially since weapons are the way of the warrior, not the mage. It was a stupid idea since the very beginning. Now warriors instead of needing hp and stamina regen suits, need mana suits. WHY DOES MY WARRIOR NEED MANA! hes a friggin warrior. That has always made me mad.

There should be 2 types of weapon specials. Stamina based and mana based. Some moves are more mystical than physical, like mmm force arrow, some other things. While some moves are strictly physical . Whirlwinds, armor ignore, concussion blows, etc. Thus those moves should be stamina based.

Doing this of course would require some changes in stamina replenishing spells/items, but thats no biggie. Stamina potions would work like healing potions. (no full refreshes). Paladin spell would replenish some level of stamina, but not all.

Either that, or throw some new mana replenishing potions into the game. lesser replenish 10 mana. regular 20 mana, greater 30 mana. or what ever.

 

[Crystilastmous]

<blockquote><hr>


Crystilastmous: if your going to offer an opinion the least that can be done is include your reasoning as to why you feel it is a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]


Other than the fact that it would entirely change warriors?

Do you remember when specials were like this? No, you don't because you didn't play then or you wouldn't agree.

Want to get random para hits? Want to get Random Ai's? It will ruin the dexxer as you know it, and we will have people crying "mages online" again.


Next time you're trying to kill someone on a dexxer go ahead and tell me how easy it would be if your specials only randomly went off.... "Mortal Target XXX..." you say "Oh I was trying but the RNG didn't go in my favor"

Bottom line it would make pvp entirely mindless... Truly point and click. No timing, no tactic, no nothing.

 

[Slymenstra]

<blockquote><hr>

I just wanted some opinions on mana and weapon specials.

I have a theory about the removal of mana cost on specials. Think of it like this if a dexxer no longer needed mana to perform a weapon specials BUT had a chance to fail the special and variable wait times between using specials. What would the effect be on the game? You still need the skills to use a specials have a chance to fail using it and much like a casting delay you must wait to stop the chain specials going off.

Now any lethal poisoner would love that because he could add the extra stat points to strength and dexterity to make up for not having any spells.

Those using chiv and bushido are happy because now they only need mana FOR spells not spells and specials both.

Mages are happy because they are no longer shredded with chain AIs and have a better chance to cast between getting hit if the specials fails or the dexxer is waiting to perform the special.

Basically it sounds great in theory but what possible flaws might come about would this make anything to powerful in the process? If so what and what are some possible fixes for that issue?

[/ QUOTE ]


Seeing as the Devs found it fitting to remove the way mana leech worked in pvp, I doubt your idea will be given much consideration.

0 mana? No thanks.

 

[Guest]

Crystilastmous I play a dexxer have played a dexxer since day one and I am still in favor of this. Just because you can't live with the idea and can't get past the negatives doesn't mean you need to shoot the idea down with ignorance.

Getting rid of the high mana demand on a warrior character would be a good step towards making pvp more interesting and diverse.

As it stands the only difference between mage and warrior suits is hci/dci vs lrc/fc/fcr

Seriously both a mage and dexxer need lmc and mana regen both need either sdi or di respectively the only major difference is lrc/fc/fcr vs hci/dci

And just so you know the game is still mages online has been and will be until they lessen the skill requirements for dexers. Mages are still the most versatile template to play because they do not need nearly as many skill points to be powerful.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>


I think lowering the mana values for the moves and giving them a chance to fail (and IMHO if the ability failed i think NO damage should be dealt) just like most spells, would be a great idea (obviously the amount of decrease, and fail rate would require testing/balancing and should scale with skill numbers).


[/ QUOTE ]

You only thing that because it would BENEFIT you DIRECTLY:

<blockquote><hr>


I use a good portion of my mana for those spells, and rarely bother using "special moves" because the cost for some of them is ridiculous as compared to my actual spells.


[/ QUOTE ]




This is a terrible idea. TERRIBLE.

It would only allow ALL players to spam ALL specials at thier hearts content every X amount of time.

At least now it takes a little thinking and strategy to special moves.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>


JUST removing a mana cost WOULD be bad but putting in a delay to stop specials from being chained and giving specials a chance to fail would balance this out a lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

You allready have two types of "failing" now, misses, and your attack being parried. And you want to introduce ANOTHER?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>


At any rate you need to really look at what I am saying


[/ QUOTE ]

Re-read what you said in your post:

<blockquote><hr>


If I have no magic and another player has chiv or bush they need to be consuming mana to use it or else they would just have an extra ability over my character at no cost at all.

If I am a poisoner with no chiv or bush and I go against a chiv sammy with the changes I have in I can up my str and dex where the chiv sammy must still use mana so they lose str and dex to be able to use those spells.


[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Make Specials cost Stamina instead of Mana. Person loses Stamina and attack's slower because of the exertion of using a Special Move. Although Stam Leech/Divine Fury/Total Refresh Pots would need to be looked at if this was to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very poor idea.

This was suggested years ago and never made it because of obvious reasons.

If you're wondering why, use the search options, and set it to cover all the years after AOS came out about specials &amp; stamina and get educated.

 

[Crystilastmous]

<blockquote><hr>

Crystilastmous I play a dexxer have played a dexxer since day one and I am still in favor of this. Just because you can't live with the idea and can't get past the negatives doesn't mean you need to shoot the idea down with ignorance.

Getting rid of the high mana demand on a warrior character would be a good step towards making pvp more interesting and diverse.

As it stands the only difference between mage and warrior suits is hci/dci vs lrc/fc/fcr

Seriously both a mage and dexxer need lmc and mana regen both need either sdi or di respectively the only major difference is lrc/fc/fcr vs hci/dci

And just so you know the game is still mages online has been and will be until they lessen the skill requirements for dexers. Mages are still the most versatile template to play because they do not need nearly as many skill points to be powerful.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not shooting it down with any "ignorance" I know perfectly well how adversely a change like this would affect the game.

Lessen skill requirement for dexxers? You really have not been paying attention.... Give me a 720 skill dexxer vs 480 skill mage... I will kill that mage faster than you can say "Kill that mage".

Bottom line is dexxer still has the highet damage output, you need mana because there needs to be a way to gauge how many specials you can do over what period of time, taking away mana requirements would HURT dexxers, taking away any skill that they take to play. Again, not knowing WHEN your spec is going to go off? Terrible idea.

 

[Good_Ole_Lefty]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Crystilastmous: if your going to offer an opinion the least that can be done is include your reasoning as to why you feel it is a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
Allow me. The reasone is as follows:


Armor ignore + Armor ignore + Armor ingore = dead

It's bad enough there are sploits to avoid mana consumption for specials as it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

1.25 + 1.25 + 1.25 = 3.75

Same amount of time to cast a devestating combo, heal up, etc. The exception here though is the dexer would most likely be out of mana do to the specail move penalty. My mage however can combo for days.

I however believe there should be a mana cost, but the special move penalty should be removed. Imagine if each spell you cast within 3 seconds cost double the mana..

 

[imported_mr.blackmage]

"devestating combo" = explode fs? 55 damage? plus 14 damage healed. Assuming the dexer is standing there and doesn't interrupt a spell. Compared to 105+ 15-45 (for hit spell effect). Uh huh.

 

[Crystilastmous]

Wrong+Wrong+Wrong = You don't know what you are writing.

35 Damage Ai with hit spell of a low end 5, 40 damage....


40+40+40= 120 in 3.75 Second.... LOW END.... for argument sake. This is also against any amount of Resisttances on a suit.... Since it's armor ignore.



Magery.....

3.0 Second Explosion (Brought to 2.5 with 2 faster casting)
3.5 Second Flamestrike (brought to 3.0 with 2 faster casting)
assuming we have 6 recovery, and can tap our keys fast......

FASTEST that damage can be dealt is 5.5 Seconds...

If the target has 70 Fire (You have 120 Mage, 120 Eval Int, 120 Intelligence, 15% Sdi on Items, and Scribe)
Explosion 22 - 25
Flamestrike 29 - 32
= A MAX of 57 in 5.5 Seconds....... Disruptable of course.

Oh you want to take the time to curse you said? Ok!

2.0 Second Curse (1.5 Delay with 2 Faster Casting)

So Again... Let's add these Up

1.5 Curse
2.5 Explosion
3.0 Flame Strike

Explosion 30 - 34
Flamestrike 39 - 42
= 76 Damage

7.0 Seconds.. DISRUPTABLE!


Oh You said we can do some healing etc in there?

Let's go ahead heal that 120 Damage you just did to me with those Ai's.


2.0 Second Greater Heal ^ 3 (1.5 second apiece with 2 faster casting and 6 recovery)

4.5 SECONDS to heal that 120 Damage....



So.... To do something "devastating" we need

1.5 Curse
2.5 Explosion
3.0 Flame Strike

7.0 Seconds for 76 damage MAX.

To heal through the dexxer we're fighting we need and additional 4.5 Seconds.

11.5 &gt; 3.75 ....Sorry Your argument doesn't work.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

I did look at ALL of what your saying.

You asked (even managed '?' marks which is more than most do) for specific reasons why it wouldn't work... you got them.

 

[Zan186]

I think mellee warriors and Mages are pretty well balanced.

I think Archery is overpowered due to the fact that they can hit from 10 tiles away, which eliminates that Cat and mouse chase that is the Warrior/Mage dance. As long as the mage can keep space or get lucky enough to have the warrior miss he can win. If the Warrior can stick his long pointy thing in the mage enough he wins! Balance!

With Archery you have taken away the balance because the archer doesn't need to get within 1 tile! Mage has to try to disarm archer and usually that is tough to do because Archers hit sooooo Hard that you have to GHeal or the next shot may kill you!

Necro's are overpowered a bit too, but that is a much tougher skill to deal with as their are so many variables.

Greater Dragons overpowered? ya think! lol Tone down their offensive power and I will change my opinion.

I still think they need to raise the skill cap to 800 from 720. Since they adjusted so many things (tactics to use speacials and lowered mana regen equipment effects. I think 80 skill points would go along way to allowing templates to be a bit more balanced)