UO Third Party Apps , Banned vs Not Approved Rule Clarification

[bikrdotnet]

I would like to get some clarification to the rules on posting on stratics.

Having gone over the rules of conduct, I notice only that a rule exists concerning posting things against the particular games ToS.

http://boards.stratics.com/faq.php

Considering that Ultima's Rules of Conduct have changed, and no longer even state that the use of third party software (unless it exploits a bug in the game) is against the rules.

http://www.uo.com/conduct.html

I think the discussion of development status of any apps, especially the discussion of said apps attempts to become approved (through alternate channels, considering the original channel was closed.)

Thus, It would be a general understanding that unless a program has been specifically banned, like some of the unattended macro programs have been, it would be acceptable to discuss apps that are simply "unapproved". Any warnings given by the Mythic team would serve as the UOPro warning did, which is that they did not check any of the source code, and make no warranty or guarantees. You should probably not run third party apps that aren't "approved" because they may contain harmful code etc..

I perfectly understand this warning, and EA/Mythic's desire to CTOA.

So if we can get some clarification to these rules, I think it would greatly help the community to continue to be productive and peaceful.

We must keep in mind, that just because the old application process for UOPro apps has been closed, doesn't mean that someone couldn't find alternate ways of contacting EA, and getting a program approved.

I thank the Mods in advance for any clarification to these rules.

 

[bikrdotnet]

and "they" is one person on the mythic team.. Also, I'd like to see where "they" said this, as everything I've read is that the formal submission process is closed with no discussion of it being reopened.

I do, however, know that personal attacks, such as suggesting onset schizophrenia are against the rules of conduct..

It is interesting that you chose to ignore the rest of that thread, and focus on a point that was made as a matter of fact, not as the overall point of the thread.

Thanks for your input regardless...

Speaking of fantastical thinking.. If UOA and UOAM functions were rolled into the enhanced client, we most likely would not be having these conversations.

 

[Harlequin]

UO Third Party Apps , Banned vs Not Approved Rule Clarification

From observation:

Discussion of banned apps gets deleted.

Discussion of new apps yet to be approved but has not been banned gets locked only. Esp when the official reps state more than once in no uncertain terms that it's not going to be approved.


I understand the reasons why they don't want to deal with approving (and hence endorsing) new apps too, but it's still a bummer

I would love a working and updated UOAM.

Now...if Kiwi and Vyal can contact Bexlan and make a co-operative effort, maybe there's a chance? It'll be seen as updating UOAM, an existing UOPro approved app.

 

[bikrdotnet]

Harlequin,

Thanks for the input, I would ask that you remove any reference to the apps in specifics, as they were discussed previously and the thread locked. I am trying to keep this thread generic to get some clarification so that in the future we may be able to discuss specific "unapproved, but not banned" apps. I really appreciate your feedback, and hope you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Harlequin]

Harlequin,

Thanks for the input, I would ask that you remove any reference to the apps in specifics, as they were discussed previously and the thread locked. I am trying to keep this thread generic to get some clarification so that in the future we may be able to discuss specific "unapproved, but not banned" apps. I really appreciate your feedback, and hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Yes, I totally understand. "Tact" is my middle name I have avoided posting specifics to the names of the apps, so hopefully we won't get into trouble. But just in case:

1) UOAM - Legit UOPro app
2) Bexlan - Legit user moniker for the maker of UOAM
3) Kiwi and Vyal - Legit users of the stratics community
4) UOPro - The name of the approval system for 3rd party apps those many years ago

No harm, no foul

 

[Crysta]

Well how about we change topics to one of the other applications hosted on Stratics then. All of them are unapproved and have similarly been glossed over. If the Stratics people have any backbone they really need to shut down any discussion on any of them as well, as well as taking them off of the site (if their stance is to shut down discussion on anything new that might come up, that is).

So this topic is now about... say.. UORudder.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Well how about we change topics to one of the other applications hosted on Stratics then. All of them are unapproved and have similarly been glossed over. If the Stratics people have any backbone they really need to shut down any discussion on any of them as well, as well as taking them off of the site (if their stance is to shut down discussion on anything new that might come up, that is).

So this topic is now about... say.. UORudder.

Must you turn EVERYTHING into a drama, Crysta?



As far as the thread goes, it would be nice to know why third party applications are not in consideration, yet UOA is being considered for UO:SA... It seems that this is a bit backward from the trend of "no more third party apps." Any UOA that would work with UO:SA would have to be heavily modified, I would think, and thus would in itself perhaps be a new program.

I'm also curious what the licensing agreement was for UOAM, since apparently the original programmer is no longer supporting it, yet it remains an "approved application" for use with UO. Of course, I'm also curious as to why the UOPro program was dismantled... they never really gave any good reason for it back then, and I doubt anyone exists on the DevTeam who recalls why it was cancelled. It would be good to know the "official" reasoning, because now that we have the Enhanced Client in Beta, the whole LUA aspect of it opens it up to outside modification... and yet a majority of the customer base still plays the 2D client. There should be an avenue of support for a program such as UOAM.

 

[Crysta]

Must you turn EVERYTHING into a drama, Crysta?

I only say anything in this way if something is really pissing me off; be it a stupid change, a stupid decision, or stupid people.

The intent isn't drama, its to get people to stop and look at things from another direction before ganging up on a single view. And, might I add, your reaction was far more dramatic than aything I said.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I only say anything in this way if something is really pissing me off; be it a stupid change, a stupid decision, or stupid people.

Crysta, no offense, but if you go back and re-read a majority of your posts here on Stratics, you'll find you rarely have anything positive to say about anything, and most of the time come off as either arrogant or entitled.

The intent isn't drama, its to get people to stop and look at things from another direction before ganging up on a single view. And, might I add, your reaction was far more dramatic than aything I said.

Incorrect interpretation; you simply don't see yourself as dramatic. Like I say, you should go back and read a majority of your posts and ask yourself if you'd like people discussing things regarding you in such a manner. Seriously... if I see your name in a thread, I can count on a dramatic response.

There's no need to attack the Stratics mods; if you believe that they are being unfair in their application of standards, then contact them, or post a suggestion as to how they might better their standards. You don't need to blow it out of proportion, and you really don't need to follow up on your dramatic entrance by referring to your opinion of what is going on as something enhanced by the "stupid" quality.

It just... really... gets old.

 

[Crysta]

If I were attacking the mods i'd give names and hurl expletives.

And if people think i'm "arrogant or entitled" for honestly speaking what's on my mind then so be it. And people do discuss me in the same way and it doesn't really bother me.. i'd rather they be honest about what they think too, and that includes you.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

If I were attacking the mods i'd give names and hurl expletives.

Hmm...

If the Stratics people have any backbone they really need to shut down any discussion on any of them as well, as well as taking them off of the site (if their stance is to shut down discussion on anything new that might come up, that is).

Emphasis mine. That doesn't exactly sound like you're expressing a simple opinion.

And if people think i'm "arrogant or entitled" for honestly speaking what's on my mind then so be it. And people do discuss me in the same way and it doesn't really bother me.. i'd rather they be honest about what they think too, and that includes you.

I don't believe I'm hiding my opinion. It's not a matter of thinking you arrogant or entitled for speaking what's on your mind. I speak what's on my mind all the time. It's the fashion in which you do it. One can speak one's mind without being crass about it.

 

[Gildar]

The current UO Rules of Conduct:

http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cf...&p_accessibility=&p_page=&p_lva=347&nextlink=

Note #23 (bolding by me) -
23. You will not create, use, play on or provide any server emulator or other service where Ultima Online may be played. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service. Information about approved software can be found here.

 

[Crysta]

That implies everyone at Stratics, not specifically the mods. Mods don't exactly have the ability to remove stuff from the main website.

It's the fashion in which you do it. One can speak one's mind without being crass about it.

Blame that on an intense hatred of how so much of society is based on politely tiptoeing around subjects people find hard to discuss.. someone just has to charge right in and say things bluntly sometimes or nothing will get done.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Considering that Ultima's Rules of Conduct have changed, and no longer even state that the use of third party software (unless it exploits a bug in the game) is against the rules.

Go to UOs main web site and click on Support, then UO Approved Apps and it will take you to this page.
http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_li=&p_sid=ilwAbaIj&p_sp=&p_faqid=306&p_iid=0&p_created=&p_prod=&p_cat=&p_cv=&p_pv=&p_prods=&p_cats=&prod_lvl1=&prod_lvl2=&prod_lvl3=&cat_lvl1=&cat_lvl2=&cat_lvl3=&p_hidden_prods=&p_search_text=&p_new_search=&p_accessibility=&p_page=&p_lva=306&nextlink=
And it claerly states

QUESTION
Which 3rd Party Programs can I use with UO?
Answer
Only these programs are permitted to be used with UO. If you don't see a program listed here, it is not approved for use with UO.

This is thier catch all.

Another part says:
These products were created, and are marketed and distributed by individual authors under license from Electronic Arts, Inc.

Now the question is, if I sell my approved program, does the license go with it?
Will bet EA says no because it was granted to the individual authors.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

That implies everyone at Stratics, not specifically the mods. Mods don't exactly have the ability to remove stuff from the main website.

You understand my point...

Blame that on an intense hatred of how so much of society is based on politely tiptoeing around subjects people find hard to discuss.. someone just has to charge right in and say things bluntly sometimes or nothing will get done.

There's a difference between blunt and rude. You can be blunt without being rude.

 

[UOKaiser]

The current UO Rules of Conduct:

http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cf...&p_accessibility=&p_page=&p_lva=347&nextlink=

Note #23 (bolding by me) -
23. You will not create, use, play on or provide any server emulator or other service where Ultima Online may be played. You will not post, use or distribute any utilities, applications, emulators or other software tools related to Ultima Online that do not have the express written permission of Electronic Arts to be used with the Service. Information about approved software can be found here.

Heh Can't go by that anymore. Not even stratics goes by that anymore.
Lets make it simple
1)uopro program has being discontinued many,many years ago. The ones that got approved great but will never happen again.
2)Any program-modification that uses lua of the enhance client is authorized
3)Any program in your computer that does not modify uo packets is not there problem.
4) Programs that read from your memory well it's your memory then not there business.
5) Programs that do not alter the data stream are not there business.
6) Programs that read from there datastream unknown.
7)Programs that alter there data stream prohibited

The only comment they will make is uopro program is discotinued and they haved not authorized any new programs. But they can't really ban programs that I listed as not there business because that can range from them telling you you can't use mozilla to them telling you you can't use windows. It's not there Issue.
Well this is as I understand it.

 

[bikrdotnet]

Is vent considered game play interaction?

 

[Crysta]

There's a difference between blunt and rude. You can be blunt without being rude.

No matter how polite you are, so long as you're being blunt someone will always find it rude. Why bother forcing false politeness with that being the case?

 

[Gildar]

Heh Can't go by that anymore.

It's the rules that you have currently agreed to if you are still playing UO.
And the rule doesn't mean you can't use Windows - there is express written permission - it's required!
It also doesn't say you can't use Mozilla - it's not related to UO.
If it touches UO packets, sends data to the UO client, or gets data about your UO session (directly or indirectly)... that's related to UO and needs to be approved before use.

 

[UOKaiser]

It's the rules that you have currently agreed to if you are still playing UO.
And the rule doesn't mean you can't use Windows - there is express written permission - it's required!
It also doesn't say you can't use Mozilla - it's not related to UO.
If it touches UO packets, sends data to the UO client, or gets data about your UO session (directly or indirectly)... that's related to UO and needs to be approved before use.

In that case what is you're opinion on uorudder and others in stratics page that are not approved and send information to the client?

 

[bikrdotnet]

While I agree that may be the thought process @ EA , or perhaps here at stratics. That is you just formulating your opinion about the verbage that has been given.

If Mythic had a HUGE problem with programs such as UOAM clones , etc.. She wouldn't have said it hasn't been "approved", and she "advises against" she would have said, any program not approved is not allowed , period..

That is not what was said, and not the feeling I got from her message at all.

 

[Gildar]

In that case what is you're opinion on uorudder and others in stratics page that are not approved and send information to the client?

Just to be clear, I'm speaking as a regular player, not as a representative of Stratics.

They're not approved, and EA would be justified in acting against people who use them. Should they act against them? No, because they are harmless, and do not provide any benefit that you could not duplicate using macros or hotbars.

UOAM (if you connect with others), UOAssist (for some of the capabilities), speedhacks, art-file modifications, and macroing tools (among others) however, provide a benefit that allows those who use the programs to be better than those who do not.
If what you are doing disadvantages others, or gives you an advantage that couldn't be obtained just through skill, knowledge, and software provided by EA then I do not think it should be used or allowed.
If it doesn't, then I think it's fine and should be allowed, but according to the current rules it isn't allowed unless it is approved and you wouldn't have any ground to stand on if you got banned for using them.

 

[UOKaiser]

Just to be clear, I'm speaking as a regular player, not as a representative of Stratics.

They're not approved, and EA would be justified in acting against people who use them. Should they act against them? No, because they are harmless, and do not provide any benefit that you could not duplicate using macros or hotbars.

UOAM (if you connect with others), UOAssist (for some of the capabilities), speedhacks, art-file modifications, and macroing tools (among others) however, provide a benefit that allows those who use the programs to be better than those who do not.
If what you are doing disadvantages others, or gives you an advantage that couldn't be obtained just through skill, knowledge, and software provided by EA then I do not think it should be used or allowed.
If it doesn't, then I think it's fine and should be allowed, but according to the current rules it isn't allowed unless it is approved and you wouldn't have any ground to stand on if you got banned for using them.

I understand your point of view. The likely hood of anybody getting baned for a program that makes life easier are almost nill as long as there attended.
The old tape on a key macro trick comes to mind. Everyone has there limits. There are people that refuse to use uoassit of course they have the option as it's a approved program but they just refuse who knows what goes through there head but to each there own.

Other programs that help with your macros and does other things that does not alter the data stream well it's ok in my eyes. Not my business to monitor there computers unless they want to give me there bank account numbers.
Though everyone has there limits. Some people follow rules to the letter, others follow them only when it's convenient to them, others don't care.

There is a jay walking law in NY well I break it all the time. Does it mean I will rob a person down the street nope. Will I murder someone nope ---unless my life or family life is in danger other people would rather die than do that. But thats a whole different concept it's really far of to relate to games which are less important rules to follow than the laws of the land. Loitering comes to mind.

I guess it all comes down to what person feels and the saying Risk vs convenience. I for one am thankful for uo rudder, uo tamer and many of the stratics tools I love them approved or not. I was thankful for uoassist before it was approved luckly the dev came around and struck a deal with them. Uomap I sure wished that it worked well but if someone comes out with another I'll use it as well. There are worst things out there for the game.
Oh man remmeber that "uo*****" I wont mention it even though it's being gone for like decade now that thing truly cracked uo and definetly prohibited in any land thank goodness it's gone.

 

[Magdalene]

Please refrain from discussing mental illnesses and stuff like that, OK?

 

[bikrdotnet]

Thank you Magdalene.. I agree..

As far as the app debate, this thread really wasn't meant for it, but I'll entertain it..

The route of saying firefox, or windows is unapproved is a bit silly, but if getting down to a straight debate on apps that assist the game play, we can not exclude apps like Vent / ICQ / or even Stratics own new voice bridge app..

These apps definitely have the ability of giving an unfair in game advantage that is not built into the client. Yet I doubt EA would ever say you can't use ICQ or Vent to communicate with other UO players..

Back to the topic that was originally meant for this thread. I simply wanted to make sure there were at least slightly clearer guidelines for tabu topics. Topics that may or may not warrant the closing of a thread etc..

I would imagine taking in account hundreds of other posts, that a precedent has been set, and discussing apps that are banned, is not allowed, and discussing programs that are in development, even if "not approved" as no app is "approved" outside the small list of UOPro apps, would be allowed.

It was simply a request for some clarification.

 

[Chrissay_]

Please review the FAQ regarding 3rd party applications here:

http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=306

it specifically says:

Programs such as ICQ, AIM, UO Trace, or any other program that runs independently of UO, and has no effect on the UO data stream or software are generally ok to use.

Ventrilo and Teamspeak run independently of UO and they are voice communicators.

 

[bikrdotnet]

Chrissay, Thank you for chiming in, can we get a quote from Mythic on their view of "Unapproved" vs "Banned" Would something that just picks up where an abandoned app left off really be a "Banned from use" app? Like in the case of UOAM etc..

 

[Chrissay_]

Chrissay, Thank you for chiming in, can we get a quote from Mythic on their view of "Unapproved" vs "Banned" Would something that just picks up where an abandoned app left off really be a "Banned from use" app? Like in the case of UOAM etc..

Quoting from the FAQ:

We are frequently asked about programs such as Multi-UO and some programs that automate macros in the game. Again, if it is not in the approved list of UO Pro programs, then it is not ok to use with UO.

 

[UOKaiser]

Chrissay, Thank you for chiming in, can we get a quote from Mythic on their view of "Unapproved" vs "Banned" Would something that just picks up where an abandoned app left off really be a "Banned from use" app? Like in the case of UOAM etc..

I know you want clarification on that but she will refer to you to the same quote. If a continuation of UOAM does not effect the data stream then it's generaly ok. The part I like to know is the software part of her statement. Does it mean change the software like lua mod programs or 2d client mod programs.

 

[UOKaiser]

Quoting from the FAQ:

We are frequently asked about programs such as Multi-UO and some programs that automate macros in the game. Again, if it is not in the approved list of UO Pro programs, then it is not ok to use with UO.

Now thats a problem which means macro programs that are part of the gaming hardware of any gaming keyboards and mouses. As well as uorudder,uotamer,or anything that sends macro to UO cause the basic of a macro is a combination of keystrokes.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Please refrain from discussing mental illnesses and stuff like that, OK?

Im sorry...was having a conversation with myself and didnt catch all you were saying...

 

[altarego]

Now thats a problem which means macro programs that are part of the gaming hardware of any gaming keyboards and mouses. As well as uorudder,uotamer,or anything that sends macro to UO cause the basic of a macro is a combination of keystrokes.

Another way you could think of it is this:

If the program you're asking about has a verified and wholly viable use that's completely independent of UO, then it's probably okay to use. This would include chat programs, excel spreadsheets, keyboard/hardware macro recorders, etc.

If the program would not otherwise have a function outside the use of UO gameplay, then it must be on the approved list to be used with UO. This would include UOAssist, UOAM, UOCurse, etc. Anything else is not UOPro approved.

 

[Splup]

And then there's the fact that as long as you are not afk you won't get banned for any program... Sry but that's the truth.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

It's the rules that you have currently agreed to if you are still playing UO.
And the rule doesn't mean you can't use Windows - there is express written permission - it's required!
It also doesn't say you can't use Mozilla - it's not related to UO.
If it touches UO packets, sends data to the UO client, or gets data about your UO session (directly or indirectly)... that's related to UO and needs to be approved before use.

I don't wish to argue but....Inside UO gets information from the client, but is not a UOPro app. I point this one out Because the "rules" as you quoted them would prohibit this type of program, and also does not have the express permissions of EA, but has been cited before by mythic as having the ability to display the art work in uo. Does the citation mean it now havs express permission from EA? I realize you took an opinion on the matter which indicates you don't think people should be banned for using certain utility programs, but the rules obviously are not very clear and are written as a generalization. Also the rules do not indicate that you may not discuss any unapproved apps, it says you may not share them.

 

[Old Man of UO]

Now thats a problem which means macro programs that are part of the gaming hardware of any gaming keyboards and mouses. As well as uorudder,uotamer,or anything that sends macro to UO cause the basic of a macro is a combination of keystrokes.

Technically, use of those applications "could" be a violation of the TOS/ROC. These macros can continuously loop in-game actions, would obviously would be a violation of the TOS/ROC. Just because it is bundled with hardware does NOT mean it is acceptable. What if some vendor decided to bundle a certain unmentionable-script program with their hardware... would that be acceptable to EA/Mythic?

The real point here is, don't cheat just because you can.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Please review the FAQ regarding 3rd party applications here:

http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=306

it specifically says:

Programs such as ICQ, AIM, UO Trace, or any other program that runs independently of UO, and has no effect on the UO data stream or software are generally ok to use.

Ventrilo and Teamspeak run independently of UO and they are voice communicators.

For those that are .... well upset at the loss of a .... tool, and understand I am not one of them and I certainly do believe that like everything, things are at the very least 2 sided. Meaning the lost tool can also be used to harass other people as well as provide a superior edge in a manner that defeats the spirit of UO.

NOW HAVING SAID THE ABOVE.

If you read the quote objectively, you can most certainly find the way to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Vyal]

I would still like to know why UOAM is a uopro application if thats EA's stance on programs being used with UO.

UOA? You can play uo with nothing but macros using that program, so how do these programs get added to the list of OK programs to run?
Do people have to pay UO to get this UOPro license?

 

[bikrdotnet]

I would still like to know why UOAM is a uopro application if thats EA's stance on programs being used with UO.

UOA? You can play uo with nothing but macros using that program, so how do these programs get added to the list of OK programs to run?
Do people have to pay UO to get this UOPro license?

There used to be a process where you submit your app and they check it out and say yes or no to being an approved app..

They closed this process down.. UOA and UOAM were ones that were in before this closed..

Thus thats why they are allowed.. No one had to pay or anything..

My take on it is, UOPro was around in the days before EA and Origin was small enough to handle the process. EA is too large, they do everything from the perspective of making money, and making sure they don't get sued or **** off the majority of its userbase.

They don't want to risk "approving" someone elses code anymore..

That's just my guess all, so no need to flame and act like I'm quoting EA..

I say use w/e you want..

 

[UOKaiser]

Technically, use of those applications "could" be a violation of the TOS/ROC. These macros can continuously loop in-game actions, would obviously would be a violation of the TOS/ROC. Just because it is bundled with hardware does NOT mean it is acceptable. What if some vendor decided to bundle a certain unmentionable-script program with their hardware... would that be acceptable to EA/Mythic?

The real point here is, don't cheat just because you can.

Of course you can tape a key and loop macros or right a batch file to loop macros or macro uoassist using macros or etc.... The main point of that is they don't want you to do it unattended. They don't care if you have a finger on the macro button or a coin as long as you don't violate the unattended rule. So if I payed for a gaming keyboard or mouse and well I payed to play games with it I will be using it to play games with. The only thing I be cheating is athritis. I doubt any body else will pay my medical bills and care for my health.
I will continue to use the programs that are in the download pages of stratics cause well they being there for many years and make life easier. If Ea still had the uopro process then all of them would of being approved and many more but because they don't well if players choose to make a map program most likely it will also be added to stratics tool section because there tools that can be used. I never care what the next player is doing I have fun with my friends in UO so it's all good. I hope they don't let anything like this distract them from making useful programs for the community.

 

[Mattitracks]

This whole banned/unapproved rubbish is getting a bit old. EA is just going to repeat the same old stuff or not reply at all. What's best is that because certain applications are now not going to be used by some honest (maybe naive?) players, it opens up yet a whole new area for those willing to risk their account to have an unfair advantage over others. It's kinda like a catch 22 for those who only wish to have a good time and play by the rules...

This reminds me a lot of 1998 I suppose it was. When the built in macro system to the game was just a complete joke and players resorted to illegal third party programs. Some of which allowed players to exploit with more ease than ever before . It was only with the UOPro program that Origin began to stem the tide of these applications.