Topic rebirth: Shields + HCI

[Beer_Cayse]

Since I haven't seen all sorts of whoops and hollers of glee, I assume HCI is still not back on shields. Therefore, I would like to point out to Cal or any of the Dev team to watch the History Channel show on Robin Hood The Legend.

Part of the show deals in warfare techniques of the late 12th to late 13th centuries - a time when Robin Hood may have actually lived. What is demonstrated quite well is the usage of a kite shield and a buckler as part of the offensive arsenal!

The buckler was mostly an archers item as it allowed hanging a sword from it inside - right to hand - for close-in brawling when arrows were not viable. Demonstrations showed how the face of the shield and edges were used to deal damage.

These were based on known and documented warfare techniques of the 12th through 17 centuries in Europe.

So I ask you ... when actual documented RL records say shields can be used offensively, how come UO can't have an HCI attribute?

Thanks!

 

[Llewen]

I don't have much of an opinion on hci on shields, but I think for many people reading a medieval manuscript on combat tactics and techniques would be a real eye opener. They didn't prance about parrying and thrusting dantily with their swords and shields, and there were no Marquis of Queensbury rules.

Medieval combat was dirty and savage, and they used every tactic you could possibly imagine, from kicks to elbows and sword butts to shields. There's a expert on ancient and medieval combat that appears in a lot of shows on The History Channel and it is a great deal of fun to see him give demonstrations, or explain the tactics that were used.

 

[Old Man of UO]

I've got half a dozen shields with HCI, DCI, Reflect Damage and two with Spell Channeling and no penalty. They were nice before the advent of Bushido and imbued jewelry. But with lightning strike giving 50% bonus to HCI, and shields actually detracting from your defense along with parry/Bushido there really isn't much call for shields these days except on mages. Now, why would a mage carry a shield... or even a quiver?

Mostly though, I really don't see as big a want for shields with HCI, as 3 or 4 years ago.

 

[Penderrin]

Sign of Order has HCI 5%. New arti

 

[Nexus]

I don't have much of an opinion on hci on shields, but I think for many people reading a medieval manuscript on combat tactics and techniques would be a real eye opener. They didn't prance about parrying and thrusting dantily with their swords and shields, and there were no Marquis of Queensbury rules.

Medieval combat was dirty and savage, and they used every tactic you could possibly imagine, from kicks to elbows and sword butts to shields. There's a expert on ancient and medieval combat that appears in a lot of shows on The History Channel and it is a great deal of fun to see him give demonstrations, or explain the tactics that were used.

Yea and if the Devs were to go by what is in those manuscripts and accurate historical portrayal all armor except for the Samuari, and regular plate would give a sever dex penalty. True story, Plate mail was infinitively more flexible than Chain, Ring, or any type of Studded or hardened leather armor mainly because it's system of joins and partly because it was less fatiguing to wear due to it's ability to partly support it's own weight.

As to shields, sure you could use them as a weapon but outside a Buckler and a smaller kite shield you wouldn't at least not for long, sure a Tower shield could be used to bash an opponent at close range but most shields were simply too damn heavy to be trying to continually smack your opponent around with. Even most Bucklers weighed in between 7 1/4 lbs and 12 1/4 lbs. Not really heavy but nothing you'd not feel if there was a prolonged battle which is why mainly Archers carried them, they only equipped them when necessary. A 24" round shield, you could figure on weighing around 8 lbs.

So yea HCI could make sense on a Shield if you were only fighting Mongbats...

 

[Beer_Cayse]

UO armor DID give DEX penalties back in the day. It was removed and never put back. Only Close Helmet did not give a penalty, but everything else did. I'd love to see that reinstated ... even in Tram rules.

A tower/heater type shield often had bosses ... raised/pointed things ... on their face. Mash the face of the bossed shield into someone and they felt it.

 

[Llewen]

True story, Plate mail was infinitively more flexible than Chain, Ring, or any type of Studded or hardened leather armor mainly because it's system of joins and partly because it was less fatiguing to wear due to it's ability to partly support it's own weight.

I've seen some interesting programs that talked about plate mail and how it was made. Some of the late Renaissance plate (might have the exact time period wrong) used composite construction techniques and could stop musket balls, and the armour used by the Greeks and others (?) in the late Bronze Age also used composite construction techniques and could stop arrows.

Ancient and medieval armour crafting was a real art form and far more advanced than we have given them credit for in the past. In fact some of the techniques such as composite construction we only rediscovered in the mid to late 20th century.

 

[Violence]

Shields + HCI

Take it a step further : We can't even use potions with shields, might as well put a couple of special moves on them, unique to shields of course, that would require on top of the standard skills, Parrying, to be used.

Along the lines of Charge, Shield Bash, maybe a defensive stance buff for increased blocking for a limited duration?

At the moment combining Bushido and 1Hand items that allow potion use seems to render shields useless for any serious PVP- unless we're talking mages with parrying. Somewhat strange if you think about it!

I'd suggest allowing "Balanced" on shields but that may make them OPed.

 

[Llewen]

Re: Shields + HCI

Take it a step further : We can't even use potions with shields, might as well put a couple of special moves on them, unique to shields of course, that would require on top of the standard skills, Parrying, to be used.

Along the lines of Charge, Shield Bash, maybe a defensive stance buff for increased blocking for a limited duration?

At the moment combining Bushido and 1Hand items that allow potion use seems to render shields useless for any serious PVP- unless we're talking mages with parrying. Somewhat strange if you think about it!

I'd suggest allowing "Balanced" on shields but that may make them OPed.

I think special moves for shields would be an excellent idea, but I don't like the idea of allowing the "balanced" property on shields.

 

[ingsmsico]

Since I haven't seen all sorts of whoops and hollers of glee, I assume HCI is still not back on shields. Therefore, I would like to point out to Cal or any of the Dev team to watch the History Channel show on Robin Hood The Legend.

Part of the show deals in warfare techniques of the late 12th to late 13th centuries - a time when Robin Hood may have actually lived. What is demonstrated quite well is the usage of a kite shield and a buckler as part of the offensive arsenal!

The buckler was mostly an archers item as it allowed hanging a sword from it inside - right to hand - for close-in brawling when arrows were not viable. Demonstrations showed how the face of the shield and edges were used to deal damage.

These were based on known and documented warfare techniques of the 12th through 17 centuries in Europe.

So I ask you ... when actual documented RL records say shields can be used offensively, how come UO can't have an HCI attribute?

Thanks!

we can't make PvP balance decision based on a history channel documentary. sorry.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

Edited response: Shields + HCI

I was too harsh in my earlier response here ... lemme retry this and see if you can accept it.

While the show demonstrated how to USE a shield offensively, perhaps HCI on one could stack with Parry chance?

With 100 Parry, 100 DEX, no Bushido the chance to block with the shield is 30%. If you have a 20% HCI shield, what if that chance to block was 36%? In other words:

chance to block = Parry skill + (HCI% * Parry)

How would that do in PvP? Would it make it any more balanced/unbalanced than now?

 

[Llewen]

we can't make PvP balance decision based on a history channel documentary. sorry.

What?! Heresy!!! Isn't The History Channel the God Father of all MMO design decisions?

 

[ChReuter]

UO armor DID give DEX penalties back in the day. It was removed and never put back. Only Close Helmet did not give a penalty, but everything else did. I'd love to see that reinstated ... even in Tram rules.

A tower/heater type shield often had bosses ... raised/pointed things ... on their face. Mash the face of the bossed shield into someone and they felt it.

As I remember it, only the plate helm had a dex penalty when it came to helmets.