[Archery] Thinking of going elf .. ABC archer and mana

[Seismic]

I have an ABC archer (PvM only):

115 Archery
115 Bushido
100 Tactics
100 Anatomy
100 Resisting Spells
90 Healing
70 Chivalry

Mace/Shields
Jackal's Collar
Rune Beetle Carapace
Stormgrips
MR/LMC Sleeves
LMC Leggings
Primer Arms (may swap to Void Totem)

My char is human and I have only 5 MR on the suit with 33% LMC.

My mana is ONLY 58 .. seems low for an ABC archer and in Doom, I run out of mana way too easy.

I spent good $ on the non-meddable arties, so I will not ditch those.

Given that, I suppose I need to switch to Elf for +20 mana, correct? Is 78 mana enough, on average for DF runs (in groups) ?

If not what's a good amt to shoot for given my template/items?

 

[Connor_Graham]

I would definitely say yes to being an elf. There's no really good reason not to be for a PvM archer. 78 would be good, but you want as much as you can get. For example, my archer setup currently has 101 mana with 9 MR and 30 LMC, and yes, he's an elf.

 

[Kellgory]

If you don't like it, you can always go back.

 

[Seismic]

I was liking the JoAT bonus to med/focus but since I'm wearing non-meddable ARTIES now, it's nearly pointless.

 

[GFY]

When I first made my ABC archer he was human also. Fighting just about anything bigger then an ogre was tuff because of mana issues. I switched to elf and added 2 mana increase and 2 mana regen to all my armor pieces and I haven't had much of a problem since.

Another problem I was having was mana management. You get a mana penalty if you use the same special back to back. What I like to do is alternate weapon specials with lightning strike so I use less mana and don't have that problem to deal with.

 

[Seismic]

Another problem I was having was mana management. You get a mana penalty if you use the same special back to back. What I like to do is alternate weapon specials with lightning strike so I use less mana and don't have that problem to deal with.

This is the first I've heard of this penalty..

 

[GFY]

There is a mana penalty (it's either 50% or 100%) if you use the same weapon special back to back. As a human archer I couldn't armor ignore back to back. But I went Elf, added MR and MI and 40% LMC to my suit and solved my mana problems. If I'm in an extended battle I alternate weapon specials and lightning strike to conserve mana. If I'm using a fast bow I may have to LS twice to avoid the penalty.

 

[5% Luck]

With JoaT you get a total fighter skill bonus to your weapon speical mana cost. Thats fencing swords mace poison parry and any of the others that you dont have at 120 counting towards mana reduction on special moves.

A human with poisoning gets the primary special move(infectous strike) for 5 mana repeatedly. Maybe 3-4 times in a row before the 100% mana cost increase kicks in. An elf how ever will hit that mark right away!

The main thing I think about when going elf on ANY warrior arch type is to add the extra int/mana to dex if i dont have it on my suit/stats(140 stm)

If you have any mana skills(focus) being human isnt helping you much. But if you dont(0 skill) as an elf you will defintly notice not having it more than you do now. Without any skill (elf) the MR on the suit will have little to no effect on your mana regaining.

Any warrior = human.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Elves get the mana cost reduction also if they have enough points, which most warrior types nowadays do with 120 Wep Skill/120 Parry/120 Bushido/120 Tactics, and so on. Humans do get it a little better, but in a PvM situation, you won't use the special moves other than Whirlwind repeatedly since you'll be using LS, and Whirlwind takes you back to full mana anyway. Especially for an archer, who's special moves last longer than the timer on the mana cost.

 

[Seismic]

With JoaT you get a total fighter skill bonus to your weapon speical mana cost. Thats fencing swords mace poison parry and any of the others that you dont have at 120 counting towards mana reduction on special moves.

A human with poisoning gets the primary special move(infectous strike) for 5 mana repeatedly. Maybe 3-4 times in a row before the 100% mana cost increase kicks in. An elf how ever will hit that mark right away!

The main thing I think about when going elf on ANY warrior arch type is to add the extra int/mana to dex if i dont have it on my suit/stats(140 stm)

If you have any mana skills(focus) being human isnt helping you much. But if you dont(0 skill) as an elf you will defintly notice not having it more than you do now. Without any skill (elf) the MR on the suit will have little to no effect on your mana regaining.

Any warrior = human.

Well .. I question the impact of even having the JoAT bonus when 3 of my 5 items (Stormgrips, Jackal's Collar, Mace/Shields Glasses) do not say "Mage Armor", so are prob interrupting (I'm sure of it) my passive MR rate.

So what you are saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me ... a JoAT value of 30 (or is it 20?) med that is basically equivalent to 0 now .. all things being equal, Elf would be better due to mana +20.

Unless I am wrong about my armor???? could it be!???

 

[Taylor]

Are you PvM or PvP? I'm assuming you're PvP, since you have magic resist and only 115 archery.

If you happen to be PvM, you might consider raising archery to 120 (so you can actually hit peerless/champs), dropping bush to 90, dropping resist completely (in PvM, below 120 resist is useless, and even the benefit of having 120 resist is negligible, at best), and raising meditation to 100 or so. This, in addition to being an elf, would make your template much easier to use. Also, even thought about 115 weaving on the template? WOD is pretty awesome. I'm just saying....

Obviously, if you are PvP, you're pretty much dead without magic resist, so keep it (maybe even raise to 115). In this case, I'd drop bush altogether and add some med....or possibly weaving, as essence of wind can really screw pvp mages, he he.

Adding med, of course, would mean giving up your jackal's collar and anything else non-medable.

 

[Seismic]

I'm PvM..

I hate getting cursed, so I like the resist .. but if Weaving is better...maybe I'll try that .. who knows.

120 archery, huh? Dang .. thought I could get away with 115 since I can't afford 120..

Maybe if I stay in Doom awhile and get some arties to sell .

 

[Taylor]

My archer, Lorcan Ludovic, lives in Doom. He was built for one sole purpose: to deal lots and lots of damage. I get drops about every 3rd time around the gauntlet. Here's his template:

Lorcan Ludovic (Elf)

120 Archery (with +20 hunter's headdress)
90 Tactics
90 Bushido
90 Healing
90 Anatomy
115 spellweaving
60 med
75 chiv

90 STR (+1 conjurer's trinket = 89 base)
135 DEX (+8 hunter's headdress, +8 ring of the vile +5 crimson cincture = 114 base)
60 INT (+8 stormgrip = 52 base)

The beauty of this template is in the weaving. The strategy is 1) natures fury/summon fey to tank, 2) EOO, 3) Consecrate, 4) lighting strike (repeated). Against travesty, DFs, invader generals, etc., I usually hit for 120-130 damage. 5) Thrown in an occasional wildfire for an extra punch. 6) Finally, when their hp is down, WOD 2-3 times for 300 damage each time, or a total of 900 damage in under 15 seconds.

I also run balanced bows so I can chug pots.

Not saying I'm the expert or anything, lol, just making suggestions. Also, if you're just doing Doom (not peerless and champs), 115 archery should be fine. I realize 120 archery scrolls are freakin' hard to come by, lol. Good luck!

My Mods:

Resists: Physical 70, Fire 70, Cold 70, Poison 70, Energy 75
HCI 45% (max), DCI 5%, DI 55%
FC 2, FCR 3, MI 15, MR 5, LMC 25%
HPI 20, HPR 5, StI 4, SR 6

Arties: hunter's headdress, quiver of infinity, conjurer's trinket, ornament of the magician, ring of the vile, stormgrip, rune beetle carapace, crimson cincture

 

[5% Luck]

Well .. I question the impact of even having the JoAT bonus when 3 of my 5 items (Stormgrips, Jackal's Collar, Mace/Shields Glasses) do not say "Mage Armor", so are prob interrupting (I'm sure of it) my passive MR rate.

So what you are saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me ... a JoAT value of 30 (or is it 20?) med that is basically equivalent to 0 now .. all things being equal, Elf would be better due to mana +20.

Unless I am wrong about my armor???? could it be!???

Well the main thing isnt the 40 total points in mana skills being used per say, Its that the MR on the suit without "any" skill makes it near useless. With 20 focus and 20 med your MR on the suit will be a TON better. The passive focus will make a difference as well and the passive med will not. Both will still effect the MR suit mod tremendously considering you currently have none.(diminishing returns & mana skill on MR mods pub 52?)

Im pretty sure its every 200 points in any weapon related skill adds to mana reduction on special moves. Youll need to referance the warrior faq for a defenate answer on this. So for special moves the JoaT adds up 20 points per skill that you "dont" have.

I always drop the extra mana into dex an keep my mana the same when going elf. But thats just me!

Dont forget if you can have mana leech on your bow you can bypass all of this if your damage is high enough and the ML property id over 35%

 

[Taylor]

Oh yeah, for forgot to mention that, too: I always have at least 40% hit mana leech on my bow.

 

[Seismic]

Oh yeah, for forgot to mention that, too: I always have at least 40% hit mana leech on my bow.

So you aren't using a Demon Slayer bow?? I would think that is a min requirement against the DF for max damage, right?

I hit for about 125 and critical for 185-190 on the DF currently with a demon slayer bow (with +50% damage mod or another demon slayer bow without)..

 

[Taylor]

I have a night reaper, but for some reason, drops seem to go slower for me when I use it (?). I use it on DF, but leave it off for other rooms.

I also do this because I have an especial lot of arrows (I do Oaks champ a lot).

 

[Connor_Graham]

If you happen to be PvM, you might consider raising archery to 120 (so you can actually hit peerless/champs), dropping bush to 90, dropping resist completely (in PvM, below 120 resist is useless, and even the benefit of having 120 resist is negligible, at best), and raising meditation to 100 or so.

I couldn't disagree more with this. As a PvM archer, you WANT those big hits that Bushido allows for mana leech purposes, and having only 90 Bushido would severly cut down on how many of those you'd get. 120 Bushido is the way to go with an archer, hands down. He's also mentioned that he's using several non-med armor pieces, so Meditation is a waste of skill points that could be used to buff the character's damage output in Bushido and Tactics. The one thing in your statement I do agree with is to get Archery to 120.

Also, your statement of below 120 Resist being useless in PvM couldn't be more incorrect. The primary reason for an Archer to have Resist is to lessen the effects of curse on swing speed, and the difference between GM and 120 Resist is negligible. I run 90 (102 w/brace) Resist and find that it's just fine. The only creature able to para my archer is an Abyssmal Horror, and I don't lose any from my swing speed rate when cursed.

 

[Connor_Graham]

I'm PvM..

I hate getting cursed, so I like the resist .. but if Weaving is better...maybe I'll try that .. who knows.

120 archery, huh? Dang .. thought I could get away with 115 since I can't afford 120..

Maybe if I stay in Doom awhile and get some arties to sell .

My archer was built with the sole purpose of dealing max damage in Doom & Peerless, and he regularly caps out on damage output. This is the template I use, and I know there are quite a few people here that can vouch for the sheer power of the setup:

Archery 120
Bushido 120
Tactics 120
Healing 100
Anatomy 95
Resist 90
Chiv 75

This template has him hitting crits near 300 on DF's and Peerless. He easily hits top damager and never runs out of mana any time he's able to get Honor. Even without Honor, with mana leech bows, MR 9, and 101 mana, it takes some doing to run him out.

 

[Seismic]

My archer was built with the sole purpose of dealing max damage in Doom & Peerless, and he regularly caps out on damage output. This is the template I use, and I know there are quite a few people here that can vouch for the sheer power of the setup:

Archery 120
Bushido 120
Tactics 120
Healing 100
Anatomy 95
Resist 90
Chiv 75

This template has him hitting crits near 300 on DF's and Peerless. He easily hits top damager and never runs out of mana any time he's able to get Honor. Even without Honor, with mana leech bows, MR 9, and 101 mana, it takes some doing to run him out.

Elf or Human, Conner? Also, can you give me a rundown of your gear?

Your template is the same exact one I am shooting for...(no pun intended)

 

[Connor_Graham]

Elf or Human, Conner? Also, can you give me a rundown of your gear?

Your template is the same exact one I am shooting for...(no pun intended)

He's an elf Seismic. Here's his gear:

Mace & Shield Glasses
Rune Beetle Carapace
Stormgrip
Ring of the Vile
Conjurer's Trinket/Primer on Arms
Crafted Gorget, Sleeves & Legs all w/MR 2, Mana Inc, and 2 with Stam Inc, although as soon as I can find a gorget to replace my current one, I'll be adding the MR 2, Stam Inc 8, Mana Inc 8 legs that I've got sitting in a chest waiting
Brace w/ +12 Resist, Str 7, Dex 6, Int 7, DI 21

Total resists 70, 70, 70, 68, 75

I use heavy crossbows and regular crossbows for the most part, so special move mana cost really isn't that much of an issue. Mortal lasts longer than the time limit on the mana penalty, so I can use it back to back with no problems.

 

[Seismic]

He's an elf Seismic. Here's his gear:

Mace & Shield Glasses
Rune Beetle Carapace
Stormgrip
Ring of the Vile
Conjurer's Trinket/Primer on Arms
Crafted Gorget, Sleeves & Legs all w/MR 2, Mana Inc, and 2 with Stam Inc, although as soon as I can find a gorget to replace my current one, I'll be adding the MR 2, Stam Inc 8, Mana Inc 8 legs that I've got sitting in a chest waiting
Brace w/ +12 Resist, Str 7, Dex 6, Int 7, DI 21

Total resists 70, 70, 70, 68, 75

I use heavy crossbows and regular crossbows for the most part, so special move mana cost really isn't that much of an issue. Mortal lasts longer than the time limit on the mana penalty, so I can use it back to back with no problems.

Do you use a demon slayer against the DF? Or an ML/SSI bow? I think switching may help alleviate my mana issues..

Why don't you use Jackal's Collar?

Thanks for the info!

 

[Connor_Graham]

Do you use a demon slayer against the DF? Or an ML/SSI bow? I think switching may help alleviate my mana issues..

I have a very nice Demon Slayer heavy crossbow with Mana Leech and 30 SSI that I use for the DF. My Undead Slayer is a 35 SSI heavy that has 70% Fire/30% Cold damage, so it also doubles as my bow for Fleshrenderers, although now that I have the Conjurer's Trinket, I'll probably start using my primary weapon instead since my current Undead slayer doesn't have mana leech.

Why don't you use Jackal's Collar?

I decided not to use the Jackal's because I wanted the MR and Mana & Stam Inc. I'm at 149 Dex/156 Stam (soon to be 164), so my Stam is still high enough to not lose any swing speed. That extra point would be nice, but when cursed by most high end creatures, I'm still at 149 Stam, and will be at 157 Stam when cursed once I can find the replacement for my gorget. Hopefully I can find one that has Stam Inc as well as the MR & Mana Inc so I'll be even higher than that. All in all though, the Jackal's would hurt the suit more than help it.

 

[Taylor]

If you keep 120 bush, you have a higher chance to critical, giving you the POTENTIAL for higher damage. If you have spellweaving, you can use WOD 3 times on DF in about 15 seconds, dealing 900 damage guaranteed. In my opinion, there's no comparison: I vote weaving over bush hands down for damage.

 

[Connor_Graham]

If you keep 120 bush, you have a higher chance to critical, giving you the POTENTIAL for higher damage. If you have spellweaving, you can use WOD 3 times on DF in about 15 seconds, dealing 900 damage guaranteed. In my opinion, there's no comparison: I vote weaving over bush hands down for damage.

1 in 5 hits is going to be a crit on a DF compared to 1 in 10 for 90 Bushido. Considering how long it takes to take one down, you do well over 900 points of damage in the additional critical hits. If you also take the 120 Tactics into consideration, you're doing more than 900 extra points of damage without crits just from the increase in damage from the additional 20 Tactics. Each crit I hit for is near 300 points of damage all by itself, and I'm shooting much faster than WoD can cast, and do this continually from start to finish on the DF. I'm sorry, but one small amount of burst damage isn't going to do more damage than a consistent amount. You also need to take into consideration that while you're casting WoD, which is a 4 second cast, you're not shooting any arrows/bolts, but are frozen. That's a lot of lost damage right there that someone that's continuously firing could quite possibly equal.

 

[Merlin]

What's your base Dex, Int, and Str

This was a 15 year old post.

 

[firstlast]

This was a 15 year old post.

Let's stay on topic or I will have to give you a warning.