The problem with factions is...

[virem]

.. everything.

UO PVP is dying, if that is what the Development team wants then so be it... they are doing a good job.

Here's the thing... I don't think they want it to die. They seem to listen every once in a while.. so as someone who has fought in this game for 15 years I will give them some insight.

Factions is a mess... and it goes far beyond the difficulty of achieving faction rank. Factions was built on the idea of rewarding the dedicated fighters with special artifacts that the masses were unlikely to have. Unfortunately the system was flawed; everyone got the artifacts, and has had them for years and years. Forward to publish 75 - the solution to make people fight more is... to take those artifacts away? Doesn't make sense. The major motivator to fight should not be based on having the ability to wear a suit of armor that you already designed and had for years and years. It needs to be something else.

The only solution to the faction rank situation is to lower the required rank to a point that is achievable for a single individual to obtain (Rank Five or Seven).

Moving on, nothing that has to do with faction fighting... is actually fun.

Lets say for some reason I want to guard sigils... I am not sure why I want to guard these sigils as I already have a faction mount and have no reason to control any of the towns.. But for story sake lets ignore that small lack of motivation for a second and assume I want to control the towns. I say to Kage “Kage, go steal me the sigils and make 50,000 candelabras so that we can block everyone from getting in!” Ten hours and zero fights later, Kage and I are the proud owners of the town of Britain. Now you might say, why would you put the candelabras down if you wanted a fight? Well thing is, we could guard those sigils for nine hours, only to have a thief stealth in and just steal them and walk out... without us even seeing and we still wouldn't get a fight.... Seems like a colossal waste of time. Let's be realistic. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to sit around for ten hours to get control of the towns.. and even if there was a reason, the fighting that comes along with it is boring.

I propose a change to the faction town capture system. Take the bulk of fighting away from Yew gate (people hiding in houses are a joke) and the dungeons (super choke points are a joke) and bring it into the towns themselves. Each town should be able to be captured at different times (one at a time), should offer a different reward for its capture, and should have a scoring system to decide the winner (based on killing people, not sitting around guarding a useless sigil). Also, I think that stat loss during these town fights (and only the town fights) should be removed. Make the player exit the town to get resurrected and get back in the fight. As for the rewards... I leave that up to the community to decide. Nothing that needs to be over-powered just something worth it.

This change would make the fighting fun. It removes everything people hate about fighting and just lets them fight for a reward. No houses, no boats, no stat loss, no guard zone; Just fun.

Factions needs a complete revamp for it to be successful in today's Ultima online. I don't see why everything else in this game should get an overhaul while factions remains obsolete.

 

[Kage]

I agree 100%! great write up Verum.

 

[Mirt]

Hate to burst your bubble but no factions was designed to be about fighting the arties were only introduced 4 years ago. The arties are not what factions was supposed to be about and seeing how many folks think thats what its about leads me to believe that maybe its time to get rid of it and try starting over. Maybe Order Chaos. That should provide for larger groups then the current 4 factions. Clearly there should be some reward for controlling towns but if all its about is shineys its dead and rotting from the inside out.

 

[G.v.P]

The Shard of the Dead was pretty clear-cut in how they managed the content of team-vs-team fights. People farmed up Shame-like loot, fought, then destroyed the enemy "nexus" to win. They could do this with faction towns--give each town a killable NPC "nexus," a non-mobile npc with no attack function, just a HP bag. For those who played they'll know what I'm talking about, for those who didn't the idea might seem a little odd. But what would the point of bases be if all of the fighting occurred in the towns alone? Glorified faction-item buying containers? Not saying I disagree 100%, just saying factions needs a reason to have bases. Maybe, at the very least, you could recall to your base and dbl-click something to remove stat loss (or maybe the base itself would have a rez ankh w/o a rez penalty). Even then, you're talking about eight different places to fight w/o bases being involved. On low-population shards the fights would still be boring because you'd have to recall all day to check spawns. That's why I'd rather see base-centric fighting, but it's a tall order.

 

[Vyal]

Got to agree with him about guarding sigs for no reason.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Factions considerably predates the Faction Artifacts. Considerably.

Order/Chaos actually had Artifacts of a sort, the Shields, long before Factions did. The Order/Chaos Shields go back to the beginning of that system, and I remember posts whining about how there was no reason to join Order/Chaos except for the Shields.

Few like to admit it but Factions is at heart an RP system. Its purpose was to give order, purpose, and meaning to PvP fights. PvPers on these boards have not been subtle in other contexts that they like rewards, but not meaning. As soon as Factions became an Artifact ATM for PvPers, it was already dead in a philosophical sense.

And, since you are not the first who has said things that state or imply that Factions and the Artifacts go entirely hand in hand?

Then that is that.

Most PvPers will, after they get over themselves, quite likely adapt.

-Galen's player

 

[Gorbs]

Hate to burst your bubble but ...

Don't focus on the artifacts. The original version allowed crafters who were members of a faction to create faction armor/weapons in towns your faction controlled. If I recall correctly, the higher your rank was the more items you could have. These items were blessed, and runic crafted of gold and higher were far better than GM made weapons at the time.

 

[Mirt]

Don't focus on the artifacts. The original version allowed crafters who were members of a faction to create faction armor/weapons in towns your faction controlled. If I recall correctly, the higher your rank was the more items you could have. These items were blessed, and runic crafted of gold and higher were far better than GM made weapons at the time.

You are correct but that was for a very small time and from what I have seen still comparable to items that could be obtained. Artifacts that you get from an ATM are not the point of factions and the fact that they have become the heart and soul of factions is a serious issue.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Pandas' perma-casting of the feeblemind spell needs to be nerfed immediately.

-Galen's player

 

[Picus at the office]

They should have left the point system alone but cleared them out. Made trial/newb account unable to join or rank regardless of kills. Either drop faction items upon leaving fel based server rules or, better IMO, made faction memebers freely attackable regardless of server subset.

The last point would have fixed the vast majority of the few remaining faction issues. No one guards a base unless, like others have posted, you need a horse. The only reason we all played factions and not red vs blues was simply to stat the other guy, there was no other reason in the last two years. Yes it was easier to make a suit and we all got use to the relative ease of doing such but at the end of the day stat was the real reason.

That 20 mins of server talk was the ultimate reason, nothing else mattered. The deves need to PLAY THIS DARN GAME like the rest of us. There is a small portion of people who PVP and, smaller still those that cross shard. This hurt everyone and had no positive impact that I can see so far, what a shame.

 

[virem]

I am aware that factions predates the artifacts... I was talking about modern day factions. The 2009 revamp added them as a major incentive to fight, and it was a mistake. You can't just remove peoples ability to wear them now, that only makes the masses want to quit. You have to give them another reason to fight. Fighting for the sake of fighting doesn't seem to be working anymore.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Pandas' perma-casting of the feeblemind spell needs to be nerfed immediately.

-Galen's player

Oh, dear, I put this in the wrong thread somehow!

Oh well.

-Galen's player

 

[Gorbs]

You are correct but that was for a very small time and from what I have seen still comparable to items that could be obtained. Artifacts that you get from an ATM are not the point of factions and the fact that they have become the heart and soul of factions is a serious issue.

I don't want to defend the faction artifact system. Factions should still be about fighting/competing, regardless of the set of rewards or rp elements thrown into it. To some extent UO is a treasure acquisition simulator though. The line between reward/incentive for participating and required items for participation are blurred, which I agree is the biggest problem.

 

[Mirt]

Gorbs I agree. But what has been done has been done. Nerfs are almost never undone in UO. So therefore folks can howl about losing the arties or try and come up with another idea for why factions should matter. I wish folks would try and foucs on that becuase constructive suggestions tend to get listened too where as howling doesn't.

 

[Krinkle]

The problem with any Faction revamp is that people are too emotional about any PVP changes. Any time anything is introduced, no one likes the changes. I'm not talking about the mistakes made in PVP changes but about past revamp discussions. Everyone wants a change, but no one can agree what those changes need to be. The Devs seems to not do anything when this happens.

 

[Mirt]

Thats very true if you take a look at the fix with this people find the devs silence defeaning but would you jump into a firestorm like this. Nothing they say could help they need to let folks cool off but now is the time to start talking about things maybe they will pick one and then they just need to do it.

 

[G.v.P]

Oh, dear, I put this in the wrong thread somehow!

Oh well.

-Galen's player

lol I was going to say ...must just be the pandamonium going on hehe..

 

[virem]

I don't want to defend the faction artifact system. Factions should still be about fighting/competing, regardless of the set of rewards or rp elements thrown into it. To some extent UO is a treasure acquisition simulator though. The line between reward/incentive for participating and required items for participation are blurred, which I agree is the biggest problem.

This is very, very true. The problem is the artifacts have become required items for participation to get faction rank.. and you need faction rank to wear the artifacts... which just doesn't work. We have to just let people use them to keep the interest in factions... and find a new way to get people to want to participate after that.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

@ Mirt - Personally I would be content with something along the lines of "We understand your frustration and are preparing our response." If they decide to respond "We are happy with the way the system is working.", then so be it. It would help diffuse more of the ranting posts, and like you suggest hopefully enable more talking about solutions/suggestions.

Virem, Galen, and Mirt's posts are correct in that factions was about fighting (RP), not artifacts and remains that way for some of us still.

Is the system flawed? Most definately. Virem's explanation of guarding sigils is extremely accurate. I can't even begin to tell you how tedious it is to even attempt to guard them for 10 hours... for little to no reason at all. If I remember correctly in the beginning the corruption time was 4 hours, a much more reasonable time. Once again if I remember correctly, the timer was changed because players would corrupt them in the early hours when few people could manage an attempt to stop them. It has been suggested "Windows of opportunity" would be a feasible solution.

By the way please inform me if I'm wrong on any details, I was much younger back at the heyday of factions. My goal in regards to PvP/factions is to get as many people to participate as possible, so I welcome any and all suggestions with that similar goal.

 

[Berethrain]

I'm not sure really how to fix this the faction artifact scenario. One of the few ways out is to intoduce more gear (I cringe when I say this because this is in part caused part of the problem).
But I'm beginning to weigh which is worse, have more people join to abuse the system for the gear, or leave it as a rank incentive and hope those who actually pvp will work their way up to use the items as initially intended.

Just randomly off the top my head they could remove/reduce the rank requirement for the current items while rewarding the higher ranks with new items.

I.e. ranks 7 - 8:

Warlord, Luminary, Crusader, Bringer of Sorrow.

Items with different hues / item properties.

Say Boots of the Warlord. / +8 int
Luminescent boots. / +MR 3
Boots of the Crusader. / + 8 Dex
Boots of Shadow. / +8 LMC

(keep in mind these are examples)

then rank 9

Dread Knight, Archon of Principle, Knight of Virtue, Agent of Evil

Dread Knight robe / +10HP
Archonic Robe / + 10 MANA
Robe of Virtue / + 10 DCI
Robe of Evil / + Pay Berethrain $50. (best one of all)

Rank 10

Anvenger of Mondain, Inquister of the council, Knight of Codex, Purveyor of Darkness.

The Sash Of Mondain / +12 UBerness
The Sash of the Inquister / + 12 free bunnies.
Sash of the Codex. / +12 Insert something here
Sash of Darkness / +12 wtf idk



Other incentive to play factions gain ranks would be a salary scenario. (Just throwing ideas out here)

Higher the rank the more the daily salary is.

Rank 1- 3 20k a day
Rank 4-6 40k a day
rank 7 - 8 60 k
Rank 9 - 80 k
Rank 10 100k

Commander of faction =- 150k
Sheriff - 125k
Treasurer 125k


Ranks would be based on a point wipe scenario under an accumulated points system of say 10 points per rank.

Just some thoughts, what do you think?

 

[Anon McDougle]

Why is something always killing PVP IF people really just want to fight others why dont they ??? get with like minded people and fight in just robes and with regents or just use GM armor you dont need PS or factions or anything IF people really just want to fight they would

 

[Berethrain]

A good majority of those who just pvp to pvp are gone. It's left with few of those and a good amount of those who would not otherwise pvp without have been given an incentive to do so.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

A good majority of those who just pvp to pvp are gone. It's left with few of those and a good amount of those who would not otherwise pvp without have been given an incentive to do so.

Many incentives have been provided over the years, which have met with limited success at best. These incentives have ranged from the Dungeon Khaldun, to double resources, to Power Scrolls, to Faction Artifacts, to the awesome and quite creative content exclusive to the Primeval Lich and Abyssal Infernal Champion Spawns, to exclusive Artifacts, etc. Fellies say these somehow aren't "real" incentives. But just because they mostly failed doesn't mean they are not real, just because you don't personally like them does not mean they are not real. Do we see the UO team offering incentives to, say, RP in this manner? No we do not.

The underlying product, PvP, is a product most people just do not want to buy.

-Galen's player

 

[weins201]

:loser: First off Factions and the reason for being in them has been around for YEARS long LONG before the faction arties and the rank debocle.

As for guarding sigs I agree there really is no reason, sad but that is like many other aspects of the game.

PvP in general is a joke and therefore factions are also a joke.

Sadley the reason to go to fel are just not worth it for MANY players.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

...The underlying product, PvP, is a product most people just do not want to buy.

I agree with you on the incentives aspect. I'm more curious when you say the above comment. Do you mean that UO's PvP system as it currently stands is ineffective?, or "In general PvP is a weak system." I have read many of your posts and can agree with much of what you say. In this case I just don't want to assume I understand.

In the grand scheme of things a game nowadays can't afford to neglect either PvP or PvM. If one system is lacking you alienate a percentage of your playerbase. What I am getting at is, Would the better focus be on improving UO PvP in general?, or continue to focus on factions. Which would get more people to participate in PvP?

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I agree with you on the incentives aspect. I'm more curious when you say the above comment. Do you mean that UO's PvP system as it currently stands is ineffective?, or "In general PvP is a weak system." I have read many of your posts and can agree with much of what you say. In this case I just don't want to assume I understand.

In the grand scheme of things a game nowadays can't afford to neglect either PvP or PvM. If one system is lacking you alienate a percentage of your playerbase. What I am getting at is, Would the better focus be on improving UO PvP in general?, or continue to focus on factions. Which would get more people to participate in PvP?

Hey there.

I mean that folks just don't want to do it. Want no part of it. Do not want to log into UO to fight against other players. Those who do want that lifestyle are a small and self-selected group, and furthermore always have been such, hence the necessity of creating Trammel to begin with and hence the unending stream of failed incentives. I even think that if tomorrow we woke up and there was no Felucca, UO's subscriptions would not significantly suffer, though message board activity probably would. Unfortunately I lack the data to say that with any kind of analytic certainty, but so do the people who will dispute that. (The difference is that I admit it. That's a bad tactic on Stratics, I know.)

There's all kinds of reasons why that might be the case. But my sense is that the biggest one is that in PvM or PvE (as some have come to call it), "winning" means overcoming a set of objectively defined obstacles. In PvP, by contrast, all you have to do is be better (in a limited time and to a limited degree, basically the duration of one fight) than your opponents. In other words, you can suck and still be a great PvPer as long as everyone else sucks worse than you do on that one isolated occasion. Further, because in PvP victory is socially defined and not objectively defined, you can win in the objective sense and still lose in the social sense.

And most UO players, it would appear, simply do not want that kind of lifestyle. I've PvPed way more than I'm given credit for, had way more victories than I'm ever given credit for, been in more champ spawn guilds than I'm given credit for, been in Factions way more often and way more successfully than I'm given credit for, and on the line, so contrary to the lies you may hear about me I'm not talking solely from the hill: I've been on the hill and I've been in the trenches and I've been everyplace in between.

And, from all vantage points, that's what I see.

Now of course even if one agrees with my analysis this may suggest another question. Should there be incentives to PvP? And, more particularly, should there be incentives to PvP in a manner that's less consensual and less controlled than, say, a guild war. In essence, should the Fel lifestyle be encouraged?

My heart has usually answered yes, that that's part of UO's past and should be part of its future as well. My head, though, has almost always answered no, that such activities destroy way more than they create and have cost us more subscriptions than they've earned us. In public I've usually argued from my head, because I rely upon it more and because what my head tells me is a good counterweight to the conventional wisdom on Stratics, which is and always has been Fel-dominated and Siege-dominated.

But as the years tick by, as I get older and older, as I gather more and more data (objective data and impressionistic data are remarkably in synch on this issue) my heart is catching up to my head, and has become convinced that my head was correct all along.

-Galen's player

 

[ShadowTrauma]

Well that was a very well written response, thank you.

I personally don't agree with all your beliefs, but can appreciate your honesty and thoughtfulness in your point of view. You are exactly right when you say both sides of the discussion lack data to bolster their point of views. In Jeff Skalski's most recent interview he mirrors this sentiment when asked the question "Does UO track player data?" (simplified account). In this regard I think it would be irresponsible to favor one play style over the other.

From my point of view PvP offers an element of unpredictability that PvE currently cannot, especially based on much of UO's AI. I would like to say I don't intend on demeaning the importance or choice of partaking in PvE. Both systems are an important part of any game which hopes to have long term viability. I think UO's 15 years is evident that it certainly has unique elements, systems, and appeal, which is why to me it is distressing that it appears PvP is on a decline.

I consider myself a discerning individual, so I understand that on an issue like this where hard data is lacking many of the responses will be based on emotional content. I would ask others to be aware as well in regards to peoples opinions. I will remain hopeful that we as a community can improve UO's PvP systems.

 

[Uvtha]

I'm not sure really how to fix this the faction artifact scenario. One of the few ways out is to intoduce more gear (I cringe when I say this because this is in part caused part of the problem).
But I'm beginning to weigh which is worse, have more people join to abuse the system for the gear, or leave it as a rank incentive and hope those who actually pvp will work their way up to use the items as initially intended.

Just randomly off the top my head they could remove/reduce the rank requirement for the current items while rewarding the higher ranks with new items.

I.e. ranks 7 - 8:

Warlord, Luminary, Crusader, Bringer of Sorrow.

Items with different hues / item properties.

Say Boots of the Warlord. / +8 int
Luminescent boots. / +MR 3
Boots of the Crusader. / + 8 Dex
Boots of Shadow. / +8 LMC

(keep in mind these are examples)

then rank 9

Dread Knight, Archon of Principle, Knight of Virtue, Agent of Evil

Dread Knight robe / +10HP
Archonic Robe / + 10 MANA
Robe of Virtue / + 10 DCI
Robe of Evil / + Pay Berethrain $50. (best one of all)

Rank 10

Anvenger of Mondain, Inquister of the council, Knight of Codex, Purveyor of Darkness.

The Sash Of Mondain / +12 UBerness
The Sash of the Inquister / + 12 free bunnies.
Sash of the Codex. / +12 Insert something here
Sash of Darkness / +12 wtf idk



Other incentive to play factions gain ranks would be a salary scenario. (Just throwing ideas out here)

Higher the rank the more the daily salary is.

Rank 1- 3 20k a day
Rank 4-6 40k a day
rank 7 - 8 60 k
Rank 9 - 80 k
Rank 10 100k

Commander of faction =- 150k
Sheriff - 125k
Treasurer 125k


Ranks would be based on a point wipe scenario under an accumulated points system of say 10 points per rank.

Just some thoughts, what do you think?

I think non equip bonuses or powers based on rank would be a better way to go myself. More like the good/evil system but better thought out of course. I like the idea of salary for pvpers, but I think for the rank and file it should be silver, then if you control a town or something part of all the gold spent in that town while its under your control is divvied up by the some method set up by the treasurer.

The OP is right too, the method of town defense, and the reward of defending a town needs to be revamped greatly.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Well that was a very well written response, thank you.

You're welcome, and thank you.

I personally don't agree with all your beliefs, but can appreciate your honesty and thoughtfulness in your point of view. You are exactly right when you say both sides of the discussion lack data to bolster their point of views. In Jeff Skalski's most recent interview he mirrors this sentiment when asked the question "Does UO track player data?" (simplified account). In this regard I think it would be irresponsible to favor one play style over the other.

From my point of view PvP offers an element of unpredictability that PvE currently cannot, especially based on much of UO's AI. I would like to say I don't intend on demeaning the importance or choice of partaking in PvE. Both systems are an important part of any game which hopes to have long term viability. I think UO's 15 years is evident that it certainly has unique elements, systems, and appeal, which is why to me it is distressing that it appears PvP is on a decline.

I consider myself a discerning individual, so I understand that on an issue like this where hard data is lacking many of the responses will be based on emotional content. I would ask others to be aware as well in regards to peoples opinions. I will remain hopeful that we as a community can improve UO's PvP systems.

They have admitted that their ability to tell what we're doing in-game is very limited.

But that they have the ability to see how many people are logged into what server at a given time is near-doubtless. First of all, if we have the ability to see how many computers are logged into our own wireless connections, surely they can tell how many people are in-game, and more or less where they are, at any given time. Just they have to look close to see anything more than that. Secondly, back when they made Champ Spawns (Publish 16), does anyone remember why they said they did it? To "balance out server loads" between Fel and Tram. Clearly they knew back then how many people were on the servers at a given time. Have they somehow lost this ability? I doubt it.

(As a quick aside, regarding their lack of ability to see exactly what we're all doing, I long ago suggested that was why they couldn't crack down on scripting more. The result was that I was insulted and told of course they can see, they just don't care. Or were being bribed by scripters. Or [insert paranoid explanation here]. So....Yeah. *shrugs*)

Finally, looking around in-game will confirm quite easily how many more people are in the Tram rules facets than are in Fel. The other metrics people sometimes use to contradict this are, by comparison, way more flawed. The chief one is the size of Fel guilds vs the size of Tram guilds, but all that confirms is what most PKs' victims have long-known and that is that most PKs run in packs. On a less pejorative note, at best that metric merely confirms that stuff Fellies do requires organized groups, whereas stuff Trammel players do can be done spontaneously, by strangers and new friends. Another possible metric is also flawed: Sometimes a lot of people can be in Fel for a given event such as a Harrower spawn, a Fel-based EM event, or a Faction Siege. But that is just a snapshot, not a reasonable facsimile of how many people regularly log in for Fel things. Trammel snapshots are also widely available and certain Tram events can easily dwarf the biggest Fel event.

(Lest folks get confused, "event" in the above paragraph just means a happening or an occurrence.)

All in all it's difficult to see how the proposition that there's more players in Tram than in Fel can be reasonably disputed.

At any rate...There we are.

-Galen's player

 

[Orgional Farimir]

I didn't read any of the responses, but here are 2 solutions that would help factions and PvP as a whole.

For faction arties let anyone who is in factions wear them, but they can only be worn in Fel and take away all of their "specials". That way it will encourage people to make characters on different shards to PvP is dead on their "main" shard.


Get rid of stat loss unless there is a fight in a faction base. The other night on LS we had a 9V9 harry fight in destard, that lasted for hours. The fight would of been a LOT shorter if both guilds were in factions because during the 20 min stat loss a guild could of bombed the harry and killed it.

It wouldn't hurt if they gave people a reason to hold the towns to help with sigil guarding and fighting either.

 

[CovenantX]

I think they should just get rid of the whole rank system. pvp would be dead on most shards if not for those who play multi shards for pvp, and with this new faction rank/point scale it's impossible for someone to maintain rank 10 on more than 1-2 chars let alone multiple shards. which obviously cuts down on faction pvp AND would likely make those multi-shard pvpers stick to their home shard as well. =[

 

[Vyal]

Look at it like I do, I play other shards that are nothing but fel based shards and have 5x the numbers as any EA shard and for the most part it's all PvP.
In my experience people only play UO to pvp aside from a handful of people who don't but voice their opinion (that pvp in uo is dead) on these forums so strongly the average joe would have zero clue how alive pvp really is.
Is factions broke? Hell yes in every single way. I suggest looking at how some of the free shards do factions to get ideas. O and bring order/chaos back.

 

[Berethrain]

Another scenario would be to lower/raise the mods of the faction gear per rank.
So say a rune beetle carapace would be just like the normal one at rank 1.
At rank 10 the mods would be be greater than that of rank 1.

 

[kaio]

I think faction arties should be removed from the game.
- upgrade doom loot to faction level arties.

 

[kelmo]

done... there are still too many threads on Factions as it pertains to the gameas a whole.