The Big Economy Thread

[Phoenix_Mythic]

Hi all. I’ve seen quite a number of recent threads on the subject of UO’s economy. Of course, it’s a subject that is almost constantly talked about. Since it seems to be a bit of a hot topic right now, I’d like to take the opportunity to start a “Big Economy Thread” and get some focused feedback.

Here is a short summary of the issues: Basically, UO’s economy has a problem of inflation, caused basically by the fact that gold is created much faster than it is destroyed. As the amount of currency increases, the value of each individual unit of gold goes down, so prices increase. The inflation has been steady for the entire history of UO. There is so much gold, in fact, that storing it and even trading it is problematic for many.

Forum participants here have suggested many different ideas on what to do about this. These ideas include: making bank check size limits bigger to alleviate the storage issue; taxing gold just for the sake of eliminating some of it; adding more big-ticket purchases; increasing NPC prices for certain goods and services; converting gold away from itemization into values stored on characters (a “virtual currency”); changing how gold is represented (e.g. changing it to copper / silver / gold / platinum, or the like); and many others.

Some recent changes that the development team have made to the game are geared towards making improvements for the long-term health of the UO economy, and we have more such changes in the works. For example, we have adjusted NPC shopkeeper behavior when buying back commodity items, implemented a big-ticket purchase in the form of the Britannian Ship, and implemented part of the Magincia Housing Plot Lottery in such a way that it has the potential to eliminate billions of gold.

On this thread I would like to participate in a civil extended discussion of the finer points of UO’s economy. I’d like to talk about everything from economic theory and how it applies here, to specific ideas for game system changes and new gold drains. I’ll answer what questions I can, offer responses to ideas, and ask more than a few questions of my own.

One thing to keep in mind here is that this is intended to be a high-level discussion. I will be frank about ideas and long-term plans, so long as there is the understanding that plans constantly change. Discussing the virtues of an idea is a far cry from making that idea become reality. As always, I will be tight-lipped about specifically what we have in development, until such a time as those specific features are ready to go into testing.

So...let’s have it! Post your ideas, theories, questions, and suggestions. I look forward to both reading and writing on this thread!

 

[Taylor]

My interest is piqued. Thank you, Phoenix.

Let the discussion begin.

*pitches the tent and pulls out the marshmallows*

 

[Macrophage999]

I have a different point of view on the economy. I am pretty sure that there is much more gold withdrawn from the game than introduced, because of item insurance, and player merchants. But it is eventually otherwise because there have been and maybe there is still a lot of duping going on.
I am pretty sure many players are kept away from this game as new players because of the difficulty to generate any positive cash, which seems open only to the last tier of players.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Gold sinks are a limited way of removing currency. One someone has spent X gold on Y item, they are unlikely to do it again - let alone several times.

The Britannian ship was only a gold sink for what, a month or two? Most people will spend the $13 over grinding weeks to get 150 million. That’s just a simple gold/time equation.

Increasing check size, or making virtual gold more virtual as a character statistic, won't decrease the amount already in the system. In fact, this would only make it easier to store more gold, eventually increasing inflation.

Splitting it into smaller denominations (copper, silver) won't affect the total amount in the system either.

What gets me, to me blunt, was the announcement during the video HoC that the Team wanted to INCREASE the amount of gold on Mobs. This will make the situation worse.


Aside from dozens of worthwhile gold sinks or a complete gold wipe, this is a lost cause. However, one way to spread the gold around a bit more equitably is to end the Team's support of monopolies (i.e. giving a damn about 'property values' in Luna) by creating a shard-wide vendor search.

 

[NoBuddy]

If you really want to thin out the gold overload in the economy, it has to be enticing to those that actually have the gold. If they have millions/billions, they likely already have everything currently available to them currently in game that they'd want. Big ticket items need to be useful, and need more of them. And likely going to have to step outside your comfort zone.

1. Taxing is a bad idea, but if you must, it must be done evenly.
2. Increased house/bank storage
3. Increased character slots
4. Game time?
5. Virtual currency is probably best method, but introduces more changes beyond just that.
6. Vanity stuff always sells. Things like rare dyes, pet dyes, quivers to hold more arrows, house deco
7. Think new....I still love my idea of an insta-bond option thru stable master or whatever. Tame your new GD, see SM, pay 20m/100m or whatever sounds reasonable and BAM...pet is instantly bonded, no need to wait a week.
8. Do some/all of these on a limited basis. Charge well for them.

The prob with this type of dilemma is that the debate comes down to making things just for those with and without the gold. You also have to decide what the goal truly is. If it's about pulling gold out, you HAVE to give those with the gold something(s) worthwhile to get rid of it on. I don't need a Britannian Ship, but I would gladly pay for an extra char slot.

To Martyna's point tho, many of these ideas only address today's issue and do nothing to inhibit it being an issue tomorrow. Doomed to repeat? Possibly, unless the gold influx is addressed. Shard wide vendor search is a great idea, and technically feasible and inexpensive if the time was invested. Certainly increase competition, which is always good.

 

[Raptor85]

Part of the issue is with the advent of insurance, things now naturally accumulate on the prodo shards, you're always gaining and never a chance of losing. Not much chance of stuffing that genie back in the bottle, but perhaps if insurance costs was scaled a bit better to the item weight it would help, when you look and see that wearing your 50 million gold luck suit you can die a few thousand times and still have tons of gold to spare and still have the suit, there's a problem.

 

[Nexus]

I'll bite!....

The problem is very complex, and many of the proposed solutions from the player base aren't really "good" answers. There might not be a good answer.

If you guys boost gold on mobs, it just devalues gold more, sure players will be able to acquire more of it, but that doesn't address the root cause. Going the other way just harms those newer players to the game, while those with gold already will be largely unaffected for a long time to come.

I'm sure you have all by now seen that Gold Sinks aren't overly effective anymore. Those with huge sums of gold simply won't be harmed they purchase items for gold then re-sell it for more gold than they spent. This was the case years ago as well, just on a smaller scale. People bought out the Reagent Vendors and sold the regs for more than what they paid.

A Forced removal of gold from the game won't fix things either, while it's a good way to inflate the value of a gold piece by making them more scarce, still once again those with huge sums of gold won't be effected. Their adjusted sum will still give them the economic advantage, while Joe Newbie who started playing a week ago will find his small nest-egg devastated. You guys understand I'm sure that you simply can't target the top 10% of gold holders in the game and consider it "Fair and Balanced".

Splitting currency into different forms will simply cause inflated values of commodities to adjust accordingly resulting in no real effect.

Now I keep mentioning commodities for a reason. The Value of a currency is not in the quantity, but in how much it can buy. It doesn't matter if you have 10 silver on one vendor and 10,000,000 gold pieces on another (assuming a tiered currency system was put in), if I can buy the same item for 10 silver in one place that I can with 10 million Gold in another my silver is worth as much as the Gold in that circumstance.

As for myself I'm in favor of a 2 fold solution. Virtualize the currency, it removes all the "storage" issues people have. It also makes large quantity transactions easier and safer, much like Commodity deeds and in the past Bank Checks did. I'm also in favor of having you guys look into drop rates. Prices of items especially desirable items are dictated by their rarity and functionality. It's part of why a Slither sells on many shards for over 50 mil while a Crimson Cincture sells for much less though they have almost identical mods. Or why some 120 scrolls sell much higher than others.

I'm not saying make rare drops "Common" but I am saying their drop rates should be re-evaluated in order to buffer the market on them and stabilize and deflate prices. Another alternative is look into alternative means to acquire items, that will in general be cheaper in terms of gold but costly in terms of time invested to acquire the same items, that don't involve forcing players into a play style they do not wish to engage in. Myself I don't mind spawning, but if I need specific scroll or a certain artifact to complete a suit I would much rather spend a couple of weeks working through tiered quests than spend a couple of months farming enough gold to purchase it, oh wait farming gold just brings more into the game economy! It doesn't even have to be all items, just make a list of low frequency drop items and make long term quests to obtain them, after all Factions got a vending machine for buffed arties, why can't everyone else get one for non-buffed items? This would deflate prices on the highest tier commodities greatly, it doesn't change the value of gold, but it does change the buying power of it as it opens an avenue for Supply and Demand to actually work.

But as I said no matter how you do it I'm in favor of virtualizing gold, those that use it as a "Decorative" item can be placated easily, make it so that the gold only virtualizes once it is placed in a bank box, either directly or via a bag of sending. This would also allow others to "Clean Up" after other players, I know when I've made characters on other shards I've often hit up hot spots and looted left overs including gold that other players left feeling it was beneath their notice.


***EDIT****

Forgot to mention......

You'll always be Vexx to me!

 

[MalagAste]

I can't see any way to create a Gold Sink that wouldn't produce a serious imbalance and unfair advantage.

Honestly the only reason many have tons of money is either from illegal ways or from selling the ill gotten gains of others or from the rares trade which is also full of ill gotten gains.

So... even if you have legit dealers you have more illegal ones right there to fill in the gaps. It's very hard. How do you fix something that's been broken for SO long?

Not sure you can. Wipe all the gold but that won't fix the problem. Those who have the stuff will still always be ahead and wiping all the gold will only hurt the already poor and new.

What sort of Gold Sink do you add to the game that wouldn't create an unfair advantage but would make those with money WANT to spend it all? Hard to say.

I mean you could create status symbols for the game... unique statues and items that cost ungodly amounts of gold such as 200+ million.... as lets face it there are many out there with over a billion in gold.

Unique tiles that can only be gotten with large sums of gold.... carpet? Tapestries.... who knows. Just things that the normal player wouldn't need but those with gold could dump money into getting... But then don't turn around and sell them online later for insanely cheap (case in point the boats!).

 

[NoBuddy]

I understand the desire to protect the poor and new, but we need to do so in a way that does NOT penalize the "old and rich", if you will. Many people have spent a very long time building up their names, guilds, "businesses", etc., and have done so legally.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Well Thanks!
Let me start by saying. Please listen to me because these aren't my ideas. They are great ideas from everyone around here.

The economy has to be looked at in 3 ways. And each way addressed differently.

1. Is the Economy Functioning Equally for All Players.

Is the economy functioning? Can a new player join the economy? Does the economy create barriers?

Yes economy is functioning equally for all players. No every one doesnt have the same amount of gold. Yes everyone has access to gold. A new player can join the economy as easily as anyone. They have access to all items that can be sold at what the economy dictates. Any player getting a tangle can sell it for 10 -20 million. There are no barriers but when inflation is so high you cant trade it.

DO NOT MAKE BIGGER CHECKS that is a disaster waiting to happen.

2. Game Play and Time Needed to Play and Build a Viable Characture is not an Economy Issue.

Dont confuse them. I don't care if a good suit cost 100 million. Time must be put in the game to earn 100 million. Sorry. 8 years ago it took a long time to earn 1 million. The same time frame exists. Don't confuse the amount of gold with the amount of time needed. You have to play to build. Not just buy up.

3. Gold Coming In and Gold Coming Out. (OR INFLATION)

If a standard is set to manage gold with time (minus dupes etc) the economy will become deflated. That is gold will be removed and less gold will have more value (buying power). But in my opionion this is moot. Because the economy is functioning. All players can join it. I don't care if I am paying 100 million for something today that only cost 50 million 4 years ago. The economy adjusts.

What I do care about is how you adjust this so gold is more managable. If you cut gold in half, that works I guess. But will you also cut the amount of gold coming in by 1/2. There lies the problem.


Gold Coming IN and Gold Going OUT: My 2 cents:

This is issue is about gold coming in and gold going out. You just don't have any reason for me to spend my gold. You need gold sinks. A sink defined as a purchase to remove gold from game.

My issue is this. Give us reasons to spend gold. Make the gold expenditures based on a percentage of in game gold. As more gold come in... the price goes up. As more gold goes out... the price goes down.

Here is the example

A Basement: A basement can be added to a house. It would cost 1% of all gold on the shard. You would have to make the program check gold to shard before each purchase to manage XSHARDED gold. You could use .00026% too. Im using 1% as an example.

If Atlantic has 100 Billion Gold in game. The basement costs 1% x 100 billion.
As gold is removed over time... The basement would cost 1% of 85 billion. The cost becomes fixed to the economy not a hard number.

A Winged Pegasus: A flying horse. It would cost .025% of all the gold on the shard. .025% of 100 billion. If gold keeps growing... in a year it would cost
.025% of 155 billion.

Setting up systems like this not only removes in game gold, it adjust for inflation and deflation. You need to do this.

Hair dyes on NPC's, Entrance fees to this or that, Cool weapons that have 50 durability, Pet dyes... items that remove gold and dont impact game. They can be gold sinks.

Lotteries based on this principle to... A ticket for a Castle on an island would be .00054% of all gold on atlantic. It would run for 30 days. The ticket price would go up and down as gold enteries and leaves the shard.

 

[Phoenix_Mythic]

On Gold Sinks and Pricing

I believe the following are true about gold sinks:

1> If gold sinks are one-offs, they must be huge. I think the Magincia House Plot Lottery is pretty good as such, but back when there was no open housing space to be had it would have been spectacular. It looks like it's well on its way to draining quite a lot of gold, but I do believe the amount drained will still be a relative drop in the bucket.

2> Preferably gold sinks should be recurring. If you bail out the bilge of a ship with five-gallon buckets and throw each bucket overboard with the water, then you'll lower the water level but run out of buckets. On top of that, the water's gonna seep back in eventually anyway.

3> This is probably most important: the market must set the price. The value of gold changes with the situation. Some shards are more inflated than others, some players don't place high value on hoarding gold. One person's petty cash is another person's fortune. So this means that whatever price the development team chooses for a gold sink, that price is virtually guaranteed to be wrong.

As an example of #3 above, I don't think many will agree that the Britannian Ship as bought from the Community Collection was priced correctly. It's largely a matter of opinion anyway, so there's little point in debating it. However, for the Magincia Plot Lottery, each player is free to buy as many or as few tickets as desired, and the ultimate total price for all the land is purely a function of market conditions.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

New issue.

FEES and TAXES. This is a game. The Lords say, "Hey we are backing your transactions, giving you checks, protecting you, and we get nothing for banking fees..."

CHECK FEES

Sorry time to put fees on checks.

Making and breaking a checks cost you 5%. If you are poor or rich, the fee is the same. Don't like it... keep piles of gold around. It is a usuage fee. You don't need to make checks if you dont want too. Like a toll.

TAXES
You have vendors. You have vendor fees. The vendor fees are fine. But you need to tax sales. Why? The realm is protecting all merchants to allow for free trade and protection. If they werent protecting us, brigands could just kill my merchants and steal my stuff. I want to be able to sell right... I need to pay taxes to protect the realm and make trade viable and safe.

The buyer pays 3% on purchases. The seller pays 2% on sales. The seller is already paying vendor fees.

Just do this... its a game. It will remove gold and no one is going to quit. They might threaten it but they won't.


NOW TO ADDRESS THE COMPLAINERS...

If you dont want to pay check fees, dont use checks, use piles of gold.

If you dont want to pay vendor fees, don't use vendors.

If you don't want to pay sales taxes, dont use vendors.

You are free to stand in Luna and sell directly 60k piles at a time...

See the logic. The realm has set up a conveinance for us and we must pay for this... Simple. Just do it.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

So ... ya wanna talk "economics"?

fine ... math in the hall

NEED - REQUIRE - DEMAND NUMBERS to even begin to think about "informed consensus"

you have the numbers
chart them
SUPPORT your premise that:

The inflation has been steady for the entire history of UO

no handwaving
no hemming/hawing

numbers


plain and simple

ya gotta bring numbers


I can "make up" numbers

pretend numbers -math- economics

>DO NOT PRODUCE SOLUTIONS<


*waits*

*dances to stay in shape*

​

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I have a different point of view on the economy. I am pretty sure that there is much more gold withdrawn from the game than introduced, because of item insurance, and player merchants. But it is eventually otherwise because there have been and maybe there is still a lot of duping going on.
I am pretty sure many players are kept away from this game as new players because of the difficulty to generate any positive cash, which seems open only to the last tier of players.

I would just like you to think about this. If a new player comes in and joins up with some friends... goes to champ... gets an item in demand... they can sell these things from 1 million to 75 million. With game play, they join the economy. They have to play, not kill mongbats.

I make money selling other peoples items. Lots of it. Anyone can do it, if the learn how to play a mechant.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: On Gold Sinks and Pricing

I believe the following are true about gold sinks:

1> If gold sinks are one-offs, they must be huge. I think the Magincia House Plot Lottery is pretty good as such, but back when there was no open housing space to be had it would have been spectacular. It looks like it's well on its way to draining quite a lot of gold, but I do believe the amount drained will still be a relative drop in the bucket.

2> Preferably gold sinks should be recurring. If you bail out the bilge of a ship with five-gallon buckets and throw each bucket overboard with the water, then you'll lower the water level but run out of buckets. On top of that, the water's gonna seep back in eventually anyway.

3> This is probably most important: the market must set the price. The value of gold changes with the situation. Some shards are more inflated than others, some players don't place high value on hoarding gold. One person's petty cash is another person's fortune. So this means that whatever price the development team chooses for a gold sink, that price is virtually guaranteed to be wrong.

As an example of #3 above, I don't think many will agree that the Britannian Ship as bought from the Community Collection was priced correctly. It's largely a matter of opinion anyway, so there's little point in debating it. However, for the Magincia Plot Lottery, each player is free to buy as many or as few tickets as desired, and the ultimate total price for all the land is purely a function of market conditions.

If you made the ship based on a Percentage of gold on the shard, then you would address different shards. The ship should be shard bound.

You will have to be very thoughtful about the economy of a shard and the economy of all shards.

Bounding gold to shards in my opinion is good idea. But I dont think that would float. To XSHARD, 20% of all gold is removed in your transfer.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I understand the desire to protect the poor and new, but we need to do so in a way that does NOT penalize the "old and rich", if you will. Many people have spent a very long time building up their names, guilds, "businesses", etc., and have done so legally.

I agree. Usage taxes hit everyone equally. If you want to use it you get taxed. You dont have too.

 

[Yalp]

As mentioned earlier, the benefits of having a vendor in Luna (search engines) feeds into the inflation of player/vendor pricing. If I know that I could sell my items for 20-50% more by using a vendor in Luna, and I'm interested in accumulating that gold, then of course I will make sure I have a vendor there. And I have done that in the past.. my high dollar items went to my luna vendor where I raised prices to be competitive with other "luna" vendors. An in game search engine that checks all vendors, on all facets, and provides some means to get there (rune--- not just here's the coordinates, go find it), would put downward pressure on Luna's vendors.

Also.. the dev team should make a study of shard prices.. why is Baja notorious as the last place a player wants to set up shop? The easy answer is "population".. but that would be short sighted and unhelpful. The harder answer is 1) there's a vibrant bartering system on Baja... 2) we have something closer to a shard wide search engine.. called general chat (I need X, anyone selling it?)... 3) Prices for items are set more along the philosophy of "what would I need to make for me to sell this" vs. "what do I think I can get you to pay for it"....4) Other means of finding what you are looking for, ie. Stratics forums, alliance forums/guild forums, for-profit websites.


And a last thought...I'm sure there has to be a way to identify which shard has the most gold currently stockpiled on it, and recognizing that the solution for a large shard might decimate smaller shards economies.

 

[Phoenix_Mythic]

On Taxes

Regarding the idea of taxes, I'm against any form of arbitrary taxation system. Intellectually, I think it could be done in a way that is fair. It would be the simplest way to get the desired results. But in reality, it wouldn't be fun for anybody involved.

Some specific things I am against are: 1> Reducing gold drops from mobs (think of it as "income tax"). That just makes it harder for the less wealthy to accumulate gold, so it benefits those who already have piles of it. 2> Wealth taxes (just flat taking away gold without returning anything). This just penalized players who have met their goals of accumulating fortunes, and it's not fair to just vanish it.

That's not intended to be my final word on this subject; I'm just stating some of my thoughts on this subject as they currently are, to provide a specific jumping-off point for more conversation.

Any new "taxes" have to come in the form of fees for new services provided, along the lines of vendor fees, or in the 25% NPC Shopkeeper markup. Of course, if the prices for such services can be determined by the market instead of by the game designers, so much the better.

 

[Tanivar]

What gets me, to me blunt, was the announcement during the video HoC that the Team wanted to INCREASE the amount of gold on Mobs. This will make the situation worse.

They do need to increase the gold on Mobs so that New Players and older Players without millions in gold can gather gold to buy the ridiculously priced gear they need to play the game. Joe Newbie who plays a few hours a day a few days a week between worktime & family time can't get anywhere in this game due to the prices for the good gear. Joe Newbie says %*$#@% it and leaves UO for another game.

The Mobs in UO have been designed to be difficult for Joe Uberdoobie with his superuber weapons & gear. Many of them can't be hunted without such gear. Joe Newbie, playing a dozen hours a week, can't gather the gold needed to buy such gear so can't hunt where the bulk of the older players hunt and winds up hunting solo, or leaving the game. You say getting gold is easy? Try starting a new character on a new shard with 1000 gold in your pocket and see how long it takes you at 20 hours played a week to buy the uber gear needed to hunt uber Mobs. And keep in mind, YOU know the game well, Joe Newbie doesn't.

They need to just trim the gold stashes down to size by a flatrate high percentage amount and so drop vendor prices for the good gear down to where a New Player playing a few hours a week has more than the fabled snowballs chance as far as gathering enough gold to buy the needed good gear.

Those far richer than anyone else stay far richer than anyone else. Those who come to UO and play a dozen hours a week have a chance to gather the gold needed to buy the good gear by gathering gold from monsters.

 

[Beastmaster]

Re: On Gold Sinks and Pricing

3> This is probably most important: the market must set the price. The value of gold changes with the situation. Some shards are more inflated than others, some players don't place high value on hoarding gold. One person's petty cash is another person's fortune. So this means that whatever price the development team chooses for a gold sink, that price is virtually guaranteed to be wrong.

As an example of #3 above, I don't think many will agree that the Britannian Ship as bought from the Community Collection was priced correctly. It's largely a matter of opinion anyway, so there's little point in debating it. However, for the Magincia Plot Lottery, each player is free to buy as many or as few tickets as desired, and the ultimate total price for all the land is purely a function of market conditions.

Many years ago I laid out a plan for house upkeep costs, which is just taxation in another form. By upkeep costs I mean having to maintain your home through taxes, material costs, and labor costs. The material and labor costs can be both gold sinks and a means for less wealthy players to profit. The homeowner could buy materials from npcs and/or player harvesters. They could buy repair deeds from npcs and/or player craftsmen. The taxes portion would be 100% goldsink and should be based on item count with a sliding scale so that the more items you have the more tax per item.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

As mentioned earlier, the benefits of having a vendor in Luna (search engines) feeds into the inflation of player/vendor pricing. If I know that I could sell my items for 20-50% more by using a vendor in Luna, and I'm interested in accumulating that gold, then of course I will make sure I have a vendor there. And I have done that in the past.. my high dollar items went to my luna vendor where I raised prices to be competitive with other "luna" vendors. An in game search engine that checks all vendors, on all facets, and provides some means to get there (rune--- not just here's the coordinates, go find it), would put downward pressure on Luna's vendors.

Also.. the dev team should make a study of shard prices.. why is Baja notorious as the last place a player wants to set up shop? The easy answer is "population".. but that would be short sighted and unhelpful. The harder answer is 1) there's a vibrant bartering system on Baja... 2) we have something closer to a shard wide search engine.. called general chat (I need X, anyone selling it?)... 3) Prices for items are set more along the philosophy of "what would I need to make for me to sell this" vs. "what do I think I can get you to pay for it"....4) Other means of finding what you are looking for, ie. Stratics forums, alliance forums/guild forums, for-profit websites.


And a last thought...I'm sure there has to be a way to identify which shard has the most gold currently stockpiled on it, and recognizing that the solution for a large shard might decimate smaller shards economies.

I run my shops in ter mur, the sell and effect like luna vendors. Luna prices are a myth. Some luna vendors have white tubs for 6.5 million. Others have them for 3 million. You cant say luna vendors as 1 entity. The vendors there compete against each other.

Just walk around. If you use the search engines, it gives you a buying advantage as you know where items are.

I would argue for and against search engines. I can use them to see what Legging of an Insane Tinker go for... and that educates me.

I can use them to find all of one item and buy it up and price gouge everyone and that is bad.

Inflation isn't caused by Luna. Inflation is caused by having so much gold you dont care if youre paying 20 or 30 million because you have 100 billion on your vendors.

I agree with you about shards and gold. That is going to be a big issue.

 

[longshanks]

well done on starting this thread. it would be good to conduct a round table discussion moving forward instituted by a developer on a variety of things presently going on in uo, be it factions, pvp, crafting, cheating etc etc.

That being said I really think we should take it slow on this issue of how much is too much gold. First I think a goal should be defined. Assuming a change is made what is the goal in mind that such a change will achieve?

Currently an orny trades for around 12-15 mln on chessy. will amending the gold flow mean that this will than trade for 3-5 mln?

Are we talking about start up costs for a new player here. How many ''new'' players are we really getting?

i have been playing 4 years. in my time most sought after items have remained steady or even decreased in value

i will take a few items that the majority of players use.
crimmy - steady
orny - steady
hom - decreased
glasses - steady
tangle - decreased

power scrolls - with the exceptions of magery and mysticism most have fallen significantly in value, focus being the exception which was made viable again due to mysticism.

stat scrolls - steady

now what has risen?
conjurers garbs - luck trading as high as 25 mln now
conjurers trinkets - 12-15 mln
fort powder - due to imbuing

though some are a bit spendy in my mind a new player who works on his skills and joins a good guild will have the means to compete to get such items in a relatively short length of time.

the higher end items currently on the market tend to be the newer drops, i.e. tinkerer legs, slither, glad collar, guard sash, capt johns hat, beserker breastplate.

if your really upset these items can trade for sums upwards of 30 mln gold than a simple solution for these items is to increase the drop rate over a certain length of time. that will add more to the game, and reduce the price.

so i guess in the end i would ask what is the goal here?

maybe things are fine as they currently stand. i mean in looking at real life i would love to buy a ferrari but my current economic situation (and probably future one) prohibits such a purchase.

maybe in the end we all cant get what we want in uo...

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: On Taxes

Regarding the idea of taxes, I'm against any form of arbitrary taxation system. Intellectually, I think it could be done in a way that is fair. It would be the simplest way to get the desired results. But in reality, it wouldn't be fun for anybody involved.

Some specific things I am against are: 1> Reducing gold drops from mobs (think of it as "income tax"). That just makes it harder for the less wealthy to accumulate gold, so it benefits those who already have piles of it. 2> Wealth taxes (just flat taking away gold without returning anything). This just penalized players who have met their goals of accumulating fortunes, and it's not fair to just vanish it.

That's not intended to be my final word on this subject; I'm just stating some of my thoughts on this subject as they currently are, to provide a specific jumping-off point for more conversation.

Any new "taxes" have to come in the form of fees for new services provided, along the lines of vendor fees, or in the 25% NPC Shopkeeper markup. Of course, if the prices for such services can be determined by the market instead of by the game designers, so much the better.

Usage tax.
Use a check pay a fee. That is good route. A tax should address all equally and be had if a system is used. If you dont want to pay the tax as a preference in game... there should be an alternative.

In UO you can use checks and merchants... or you can stand and sell. You have a choice.

Pay the fees for the conveinance.

 

[olduofan]

some really good ideas here

Bounding gold to shards in my opinion is good idea

Aside from dozens of worthwhile gold sinks or a complete gold wipe, this is a lost cause. However, one way to spread the gold around a bit more equitably is to end the Team's support of monopolies (i.e. giving a damn about 'property values' in Luna) by creating a shard-wide vendor search.

I would add that if we could buy special uo vender that could only be a part of the full shard vendor search coverage and had to pay a higher fee for those vendors to be apart of the vendor search that way we can still keep or vendors where ever we want to to sell are goods but we could also have vendors set-up in a new area like new mag that is part of the search and we would have to pay a tax upon sell and a daily fee like 10k a day and a 10%tax on sells maybe (someone else can adjust#s)

 

[Black Majick]

*puts on flame retardant suit*

Do away with LRC! Make people use regs!!!

This will help multiple systems. Factions will actually have a reason for holding towns. Gold will be flying out the game in massive amounts as people will be buying up regs to use. They will also have a cost to gain gold (100gp in regs to kill monster that gives 350 for example). That is just a start. Maybe even raise te price of regs a bit when you do? I think this would be one step in a good direction. Even if you dont do away with LRC. Limit it!!!

 

[Yalp]

some really good ideas here

Bounding gold to shards in my opinion is good idea

About a year ago, there were several player merchants who came to Baja, spamming the purchase of everything not locked down.. their purpose.. transferring the items to a high priced shard...this practice would need to be taken into consideration as well.

 

[Lynk]

Currently an orny trades for around 12-15 mln on chessy. will amending the gold flow mean that this will than trade for 3-5 mln?

You make some good points, which really just emphasizes on the supply/demand rule of basic economics.

I don't feel that the economy is that off really.... Sure stuff is expensive, but gold is easy to come by.

I set my eyes on something I want to buy, and I have about 20 different ways to make gold. Just repeat said actions until I can buy what I want.

Also.. mln is a horrible abbreviation for million.

 

[Vlaude]

if your really upset these items can trade for sums upwards of 30 mln gold than a simple solution for these items is to increase the drop rate over a certain length of time. that will add more to the game, and reduce the price.

There is a reason this cannot be done in the Post-AOS era UO, which has more to do with psychology than economics. If rare beneficial artifacts (that can be blessed or insured) are made less rare you take away one of the big motivators that keeps a lot of people playing. In essence doing this idea would risk people leaving the game from lack of things to do.

One solution however, could be to include other kinds of rare items in the form of house decorations or items that don't have any unique or special benefit other than looking cool to replace the coming influx of the beneficial items. Would that really work though? I don't know.

 

[olduofan]

as far as have npc vendors prices raise this is not a good idea imo take a look at saltpeter I have not used the expansion in months because of the price. it just doesn't pay and everything to make for a battle is far to time consuming.

this will not effect the super rich most of them just buy from the small guys that do all the work in game so it hurts the new comers and the people that actual play the game they pay for. I would like to get back in my boat and have fun killer pirtes but for the amount it cost and time it takes I wont even bother I just waited until you find the new items already on the ground at the banks. I dont feel im the only person upset about the saltpeter thing either. Its things like this that has caused me to remove my active billing (just waiting for spring cleaning to drop houses). I pay for a booster find it to be some fun then quikly find it to be nothing but a time consuming boring gold sink.maybe we can get anther booster that eliminates the grid of making the resources (cut it in half) and the cost to fight pirates.

 

[virtualhabitat]

I'll bite!....


Now I keep mentioning commodities for a reason. The Value of a currency is not in the quantity, but in how much it can buy. It doesn't matter if you have 10 silver on one vendor and 10,000,000 gold pieces on another (assuming a tiered currency system was put in), if I can buy the same item for 10 silver in one place that I can with 10 million Gold in another my silver is worth as much as the Gold in that circumstance.

As for myself I'm in favor of a 2 fold solution. Virtualize the currency, it removes all the "storage" issues people have. It also makes large quantity transactions easier and safer, much like Commodity deeds and in the past Bank Checks did. I'm also in favor of having you guys look into drop rates. Prices of items especially desirable items are dictated by their rarity and functionality. It's part of why a Slither sells on many shards for over 50 mil while a Crimson Cincture sells for much less though they have almost identical mods. Or why some 120 scrolls sell much higher than others.

I'm not saying make rare drops "Common" but I am saying their drop rates should be re-evaluated in order to buffer the market on them and stabilize and deflate prices. Another alternative is look into alternative means to acquire items, that will in general be cheaper in terms of gold but costly in terms of time invested to acquire the same items, that don't involve forcing players into a play style they do not wish to engage in. Myself I don't mind spawning, but if I need specific scroll or a certain artifact to complete a suit I would much rather spend a couple of weeks working through tiered quests than spend a couple of months farming enough gold to purchase it, oh wait farming gold just brings more into the game economy! It doesn't even have to be all items, just make a list of low frequency drop items and make long term quests to obtain them, after all Factions got a vending machine for buffed arties, why can't everyone else get one for non-buffed items? This would deflate prices on the highest tier commodities greatly, it doesn't change the value of gold, but it does change the buying power of it as it opens an avenue for Supply and Demand to actually work.

I agree with Nexus on the nature of currency, inflation, and his thoughts toward a solution. The simple fact is that there are not enough goods (items people want to buy) in relation to the amount of gold waiting to buy them.


Way too much gold chasing too few goods.

Demand pull inflation.
Although UO is missing a few factors of the macroeconomy of the real world, such as government purchasing and businesses, a player would be considered a household and UO does have foreign buyers in the form of cross shard traders. Demand pull inflation is simply where aggregate demand is greater than aggregate supply. In this case exacerbated by steady wage increases (earning more and more gold).
*******************************
RavenWinterHawk's formula for percentage pricing could be adapted to controlling the aggregate supply of in-demand items so that supply could keep up with how much gold is being generated on a given shard.

The more gold generated would automatically increase the drops of demanded items, thus balancing supply and demand.

 

[olduofan]

There is a reason this cannot be done in the Post-AOS era UO, which has more to do with psychology than economics. If rare beneficial artifacts (that can be blessed or insured) are made less rare you take away one of the big motivators that keeps a lot of people playing. In essence doing this idea would risk people leaving the game from lack of things to do.

One solution however, could be to include other kinds of rare items in the form of house decorations or items that don't have any unique or special benefit other than looking cool to replace the coming influx of the beneficial items. Would that really work though? I don't know.

they did that and made it for the FEL only people and it didn last long before it flooded the market and now once again you find a lot of it on the ground in luna.

 

[NoBuddy]

That and house deco does not appeal to everyone. Not exactly useful in terms of game play.

 

[Madrid]

About a year ago the Devs re-activated Bags of Sending, made gold weigh less, increased the gold at Champ Spawns to 250k +/-.

I really don't want the Devs sticking their hands into the Economy and messing with it. Get us some better graphics for the EC, fix the bugs. Stop making stupid mistakes like allowing players to xfer off TC (this one was huge you guys really effed up big time there)...worse than allowing dupe.

Sorry but I find this thread a bit ridiculous given the recent changes a year ago that allowed even more gold into the game.

Also...I don't want socialism introduced into UO. The economy will balance itself out and players can decide what they are willing to charge and willing to pay for items.

I really don't like the idea of 'government' intervention into this area.

The economy is fine. Another classic example of the sqeeky wheel gets the grease.

Go work on some things that are actually important in the game.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

The other thing I want to keep in mind is GOLD and Item Price are not equal.

I think you have to look at the amount of gold in game and not the value of an item.

The value of items are in part effected by gold amount. But they are more of a demand issue.

Recall Scrolls stay at 50 gold per scroll.
Hat of Magi was worth 10's of millions.
Kelp leggings are damn good for 100k
Leggings of an Insane Tinker is what 50 million

If something better comes out the value plummets.
Rares are effected by percieved rarity and new similiar items.

I think to address the economy you solely have to look and gold in and gold out.

Items will adjust to a standard system.

Plus if you only PvM you don't need any of that crap anyway. Now your into play styles. Gold focus should be on gold.

 

[Warrick]

Convert to a new currency base. By creating a new currency we would, in effect, hit a reset button on the economy. Here's how it would work:

- the new currency is introduced (for discussion lets call it the Uro).
- those holding the old Gold currency will need to convert their gold to the new Uro thru an in-game money changer.
- unchanged gold and gold checks will need to be removed from every account by the UO game gods.
- here's the beauty part: each account (not character)is limited to a maximum amount of Uro's that they can buy. Again, just for discussion let's set an arbitrary amount like $25 million.
- the result: billions are eliminated overnight. The gold brokers and dupers are out of luck. And we again have a new economy.

One problem with this method: if the currency change date is known in advance, those with excessive gold will buy everything and anything they can get their hands on in the days leading up to the conversion date. The result will be a massive spike in inflation and the very people who distort the economy the most will have the greatest possessions in the new economy. The ideal solution is to have the gods perform the conversion overnight and unannounced.

Thoughts?

 

[olduofan]

About a year ago the Devs re-activated Bags of Sending, made gold weigh less, increased the gold at Champ Spawns to 250k +/-.

I really don't want the Devs sticking their hands into the Economy and messing with it. Get us some better graphics for the EC, fix the bugs. Stop making stupid mistakes like allowing players to xfer off TC (this one was huge you guys really effed up big time there)...worse than allowing dupe.

Sorry but I find this thread a bit ridiculous given the recent changes a year ago that allowed even more gold into the game.

Also...I don't want socialism introduced into UO. The economy will balance itself out and players can decide what they are willing to charge and willing to pay for items.

I really don't like the idea of 'government' intervention into this area.

The economy is fine. Another classic example of the sqeeky wheel gets the grease.

Go work on some things that are actually important in the game.

capitalism is also a failed economic path with out checks and balances. as we can all see and basically thats what uo has become the super rich and the poor and when people feel they cant compete they quit. Im not saying go the socialism way but wealth distribution has to a part of all society's irl and igl

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

About a year ago the Devs re-activated Bags of Sending, made gold weigh less, increased the gold at Champ Spawns to 250k +/-.

I really don't want the Devs sticking their hands into the Economy and messing with it. Get us some better graphics for the EC, fix the bugs. Stop making stupid mistakes like allowing players to xfer off TC (this one was huge you guys really effed up big time there)...worse than allowing dupe.

Sorry but I find this thread a bit ridiculous given the recent changes a year ago that allowed even more gold into the game.

Also...I don't want socialism introduced into UO. The economy will balance itself out and players can decide what they are willing to charge and willing to pay for items.

I really don't like the idea of 'government' intervention into this area.

The economy is fine. Another classic example of the sqeeky wheel gets the grease.

Go work on some things that are actually important in the game.

Actually it cant balance itself out. Sorry.

The problem is lets say your bank box and trade windows hold 125 items.
If inflation continues.... all items will hit a ceiling of 125 million. Unless you are willing to hand over an item before you get all your gold or vice versa.

100 million seems to be a ceiling right now.

Creating larger checks is not smart. It will breed inflation and explotation.

So the key is really creating system that lets gold come in and go out.

Since gold always comes in... you can always get more. In away you have to make gold exit faster. But first you need an improved exit system.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

capitalism is also a failed economic path with out checks and balances. as we can all see and basically thats what uo has become the super rich and the poor and when people feel they cant compete they quit. Im not saying go the socialism way but wealth distribution has to a part of all society's irl and igl

The UO system needs checks and balances. You are right.

Compete is all relative. If a player comes in and is willing to play the game for 90 days. They can build up their wealth very easily.

The one that leave want to much to quickly. That also ruins the game.

 

[longshanks]

There is a reason this cannot be done in the Post-AOS era UO, which has more to do with psychology than economics. If rare beneficial artifacts (that can be blessed or insured) are made less rare you take away one of the big motivators that keeps a lot of people playing. In essence doing this idea would risk people leaving the game from lack of things to do.

One solution however, could be to include other kinds of rare items in the form of house decorations or items that don't have any unique or special benefit other than looking cool to replace the coming influx of the beneficial items. Would that really work though? I don't know.

i understand the idea of a rare drop. i'm not saying you have to totally open the faucet rather a slight adjustment in the rng would be enough.

i was in a guild last summer that chained semidar, day in day out. i can count on one hand the number of sash's and glad collars that dropped.

i've done countless medusas with no slither drop

i'm on about 50 slashers solo'd now with my whammy thrower with no lavalliere drop.

those 4 items trade for 30 - 45 - 75 million (sorry lynk mln is from my old telex days when u paid by the letter)


but my main point is sort of on par with madrids. i'm not sure things really need a radical fix here.

 

[Hell's Ironworks]

I wont go into an elaborate essay on the subject , but will give you my thoughts and ideas on the subject.

For me the best gold sinks are expensive desirable items that one cant resell.

Brit galleon was a good idea, but it only appeals to a minority of players. And now you can get them for 12 bucks on UO codes anyway so in the end, its a big fail as a gold sink.

Have NPCs sell more account bound items that everyone will want

- Personnal bless deeds @ npc scribes for 20-25 mill. ( i only have about 15 mill in bank and i would gladly save my pennies for those )

- Blessed bags @ npc tailors able to hold 5-10 items / 50 stones

- Bod books for any kind of deeds @ npc scribes

- Special wood flooring tile set @ npc carp

The possibilities are endless, the key is to have them account bound , and desirable by most of the players. Even the non-billionnaires.

If alot of players are saving to get one or more of these items, 2 things are happening :

1- they have less gold to spend on other stuff, forcing the prices down

2- they are making millions of gold disapearing


just my 2 cents..

 

[NoBuddy]

capitalism is also a failed economic path with out checks and balances. as we can all see and basically thats what uo has become the super rich and the poor and when people feel they cant compete they quit. Im not saying go the socialism way but wealth distribution has to a part of all society's irl and igl

Oh so wrong. If that's the case, then only do it on the Europe shards, they like that kinda stuff. Leave the American shards alone. Wealth redistribution never works....never has, never will.

This is such a tired argument. If you're poor, learn what it takes to make money. Just like in real life. If you can't commit the time, it's understandable, but no one is entitled to the same as anyone else. Get out what you put in.

 

[Vlaude]

There is a reason this cannot be done in the Post-AOS era UO, which has more to do with psychology than economics. If rare beneficial artifacts (that can be blessed or insured) are made less rare you take away one of the big motivators that keeps a lot of people playing. In essence doing this idea would risk people leaving the game from lack of things to do.

One solution however, could be to include other kinds of rare items in the form of house decorations or items that don't have any unique or special benefit other than looking cool to replace the coming influx of the beneficial items. Would that really work though? I don't know.

they did that and made it for the FEL only people and it didn last long before it flooded the market and now once again you find a lot of it on the ground in luna.

That and house deco does not appeal to everyone. Not exactly useful in terms of game play.

Well I was just offering up an idea so I wasn't critiquing someone else's idea without giving one of my own. What ideas do you have?

My main point was you can't make rare beneficial items less rare without giving players who enjoy grinding for them something else to do.

Think about it. If 120 scrolls proliferated even more than now, Fel would become more desolate taking away a part of them game people enjoy. Same with peerless artifacts, if everyone had them that means less people to sell to which means no one is going to do peerlesses because they already have a slither and so does everyone else.

Like I said, increasing drop rates for rares can't work unless you give players something else to grind for because for some people the grind is what keeps them playing.

So.. if that doesn't work, what will?

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Convert to a new currency base. By creating a new currency we would, in effect, hit a reset button on the economy. Here's how it would work:

- the new currency is introduced (for discussion lets call it the Uro).
- those holding the old Gold currency will need to convert their gold to the new Uro thru an in-game money changer.
- unchanged gold and gold checks will need to be removed from every account by the UO game gods.
- here's the beauty part: each account (not character)is limited to a maximum amount of Uro's that they can buy. Again, just for discussion let's set an arbitrary amount like $25 million.
- the result: billions are eliminated overnight. The gold brokers and dupers are out of luck. And we again have a new economy.

One problem with this method: if the currency change date is known in advance, those with excessive gold will buy everything and anything they can get their hands on in the days leading up to the conversion date. The result will be a massive spike in inflation and the very people who distort the economy the most will have the greatest possessions in the new economy. The ideal solution is to have the gods perform the conversion overnight and unannounced.

Thoughts?

Sorry terrible. Reset just harms. And without a good system, you falsely address the problem. That is it would only return again.

And dude the gold brokers and dupers make Real Life Cash. When ebay was up. I sold gold. $10 to $20 per million.

The gold brokers instead of selling 100 million of $50. Would just sell 10 million more $50. The make the same amount. What they sell is irrelevant.

Sorry.

And what do you mean new economy? You have the same exact economy with less gold. And the brokers are still selling gold and the beauty is they can sell less for more. Think about it.

 

[olduofan]

The UO system needs checks and balances. You are right.

Compete is all relative. If a player comes in and is willing to play the game for 90 days. They can build up their wealth very easily.

The one that leave want to much to quickly. That also ruins the game.

this is true to a point people now a days seem to want instant satisfaction but that being said look at WoW that game is nothing but a long boring grid and they have 9mil plus subs so if it looks like the average joe/jill can obtain said goals they will have a reason to stay if not its not really fun chasing the carrot

 

[longshanks]

Creating larger checks is not smart. It will breed inflation and explotation.


i agree with this.

 

[olduofan]

Creating larger checks is not smart. It will breed inflation and explotation.


i agree with this.

I agree as well

instead of duping 1,000000 checks they will dupe 10,000000 checks or what ever size the max becomes

 

[Nimuaq]

Instead of increasing the gold on mobs, remove 2 zeros from all the gold currently in the game, including checks and vendors. This will remove 99% of the gold, at the same time would give a reason to farm gold again from the mobs. Just an idea.

 

[virtualhabitat]

I wont go into an elaborate essay on the subject , but will give you my thoughts and ideas on the subject.

For me the best gold sinks are expensive desirable items that one cant resell.

Brit galleon was a good idea, but it only appeals to a minority of players. And now you can get them for 12 bucks on UO codes anyway so in the end, its a big fail as a gold sink.

Have NPCs sell more account bound items that everyone will want

- Personnal bless deeds @ npc scribes for 20-25 mill. ( i only have about 15 mill in bank and i would gladly save my pennies for those )

- Blessed bags @ npc tailors able to hold 5-10 items / 50 stones



just my 2 cents..

So, with enough bless deeds and bless bags I wouldn't ever have to worry about losing anything or insurance costs?

 

[Vlaude]

i understand the idea of a rare drop. i'm not saying you have to totally open the faucet rather a slight adjustment in the rng would be enough.

i was in a guild last summer that chained semidar, day in day out. i can count on one hand the number of sash's and glad collars that dropped.

i've done countless medusas with no slither drop

i'm on about 50 slashers solo'd now with my whammy thrower with no lavalliere drop.

those 4 items trade for 30 - 45 - 75 million (sorry lynk mln is from my old telex days when u paid by the letter)


but my main point is sort of on par with madrids. i'm not sure things really need a radical fix here.

Right, I hear you. But that's exactly my point, you were online PLAYING during all of that time. You may not have enjoyed it (or maybe you did) but nevertheless, it kept you busy in-game. So if rare items were less rare you might have been spending your time doing something else in-game OR you might not have (that's the risk). Now I know you PvP because I've seen you talk about it on the Chesapeake forums... so to players like you and I that does give us something else to do. But not everyone in UO does PvP or aspires to so taking out some of the grinding in the game takes away their main reason for playing.

Now, some may say good riddance to those types.. but it's not the people who take their money

 

[virtualhabitat]

You didnt' read the fine print:

*limit 1 per character

Happy?

I was neither happy nor unhappy. I was asking a question.

By the way, there was no fine print.