The Anti-Paladin

[Llewen]

I've been thinking about chivalry a bit lately, and thinking about how it still can be quite effective, even if you have very low karma. To me, this doesn't make sense. So my idea is to create a new skill for which the title would be Anti-Paladin. Here are the basics of the idea.

- Possible name for the anti-paladin skill: Corruption.
- Chivalry should simply not work at all if you have negative karma.
- The new skill should not work at all if you have positive karma.

The abilities/spells themselves should focus on curses, and augmenting the effectiveness of melee combat skills. The interesting question is, who should be more susceptible to the anti-paladin's curses, those who are evil, or those who are good? My inclination is to have the anti-paladin's curses be more effective the lower the target's karma is, so that those who are "good", gain a degree of immunity to their curses.

I think murder counts should subtract a set amount from the character's karma, so that they also will make the character more vulnerable to the anti-paladin's curses and abilities. I'm thinking perhaps something in the order of a 1000 point karma penalty for the purposes of resisting the anti-paladin's curses per murder count.

- A suggestion for an anti-paladin ability would be a curse called "Hopelessness" which slows the target's swing speed, movement rate, casting speed and casting recovery, as well as regeneration rates for mana, hit points and stamina. Obviously you wouldn't want this to be overpowering, but it could be balanced so that it is useful, and effective, without being overpowering.

- Another suggestion for an ability is "Unholy Favour", which would essentially be the mirror image of Hopelessness by providing bonuses to swing speed, and all of the others that Hopelessness effects, with the possible exception of movement rate, but would be more effective the lower the target's karma is, with the same "bonus" for murder counts.

- Another idea for an ability is "Veil of Night" which is an area effect that removes the effects of night sight, elven night vision, etc., for everyone in a radius around the caster, that moves with the caster, with the exception of the caster. So this would only work at night, but it should affect targets regardless of their karma. It should also block the use of object and mobile "handles" and prevent any text from appearing over the heads of mobiles, including characters. Perhaps this should only be effective under the Felucca rules set.

 

[Llewen]

It just occurred to me that the anti-paladin's abilities could be used to, in a way, remind players what UO used to be like, in it's first days. So another curse could be "Hunger" which would again affect everyone in a radius around the caster, regardless of karma, which would reproduce the old effects of hunger on those in range; ie. eat or slowly lose combat effectiveness and die...

 

[RawHeadRex]

interesting

 

[Eric Ravenwind]

Neat idea. In D&D, this would be called a Blackguard.

 

[Xalan Dementia]

not bad! maybe make some fiction about some Daemon lord shrine (a quest to start training the skill, like spellweavings) Do the bidding of this evil being and you earn a taste of his power! (book, couple spells, and like free bump to 20-40 skill) THen they can maybe add the rest of the spell scrolls to a newly revamped dungeon? Maybe add these daemonic cultists to the Daemon Temple and have them drop the spells or have them in locked chests as well.

 

[ahardy]

And they can make a booster called Palladin Wars, and sell for 9$ with this content.

 

[red sky]

I thought the necromancer was the anti-palidin. Although I do get the vibe in the direction you are trying to head. Anti-palidin is necromancy though. Just fyi.

 

[Broner a G]

I love the anti-paladin character concept and my main character is a melee necromancer with spirit speak instead of chivalry. (By the way, how screwed up is it that the necromancer taking spirit speak over chivalry is the one being weird?) I'm not against spitballing this idea around, though I do think it might be a bit redundant with necromancy already around.

Skill would need a big PVE damage booster with important restrictions/drawbacks, ala bushido perfection or chivalry enemy of one, but one with different mechanics than either of those.

I'll admit I'm a bit short of ideas regarding that. Maybe something that messes with enemy resists, but I dunno what the penalty should be.

 

[Llewen]

I guess I see the Necromancer as a mage class, while the Paladin is a warrior class. For me Necromancy is the dark side of Spellweaving, Magery and even Mysticism. Corruption would be the dark side of the Chivalry, Bushido and Ninjitsu skills.

 

[Njjj]

I like the ideas, but I do think necro and anti paladan would be redundant. Maybe make karma affect the current chivalry spells differently depending on if it's negative or positive. If it's negative, the effect is something that could be considered the opposite of what it is now, but still effective. Maybe someone more creative than I can come up with an example.

 

[SixUnder]

It just occurred to me that the anti-paladin's abilities could be used to, in a way, remind players what UO used to be like, in it's first days. So another curse could be "Hunger" which would again affect everyone in a radius around the caster, regardless of karma, which would reproduce the old effects of hunger on those in range; ie. eat or slowly lose combat effectiveness and die...

If you are one, plus me.

that makes 2 who can remmeber when karma truly mattered, or murder status.

im gonna go cry now, damn item based games

 

[Mirt]

I guess I see the Necromancer as a mage class, while the Paladin is a warrior class. For me Necromancy is the dark side of Spellweaving, Magery and even Mysticism. Corruption would be the dark side of the Chivalry, Bushido and Ninjitsu skills.

Chivalry and Necromancy were meant to be the two opposite sides of the karma spectrum. That’s why it has curse weapon and the forms that it has. As well as many of the curse effects. Eric Blackguards only came in 3rd edition. Dark Paladins was the most common title for that before which is closer to a sampire. Although that class never made it very far and was only in the supplementals.

 

[Llewen]

I guess I see the Necromancer as a mage class, while the Paladin is a warrior class. For me Necromancy is the dark side of Spellweaving, Magery and even Mysticism. Corruption would be the dark side of the Chivalry, Bushido and Ninjitsu skills.

Chivalry and Necromancy were meant to be the two opposite sides of the karma spectrum. That’s why it has curse weapon and the forms that it has. As well as many of the curse effects. Eric Blackguards only came in 3rd edition. Dark Paladins was the most common title for that before which is closer to a sampire. Although that class never made it very far and was only in the supplementals.

That may have been the original intention for that expansion, but that is not how it has worked out. Now you have character builds with both necromancy and chivalry. If they truly were meant to be opposites, that simply shouldn't be possible, as would be the case with my proposed corruption skill (there has to be a better name than that, it sounds too much like a day in the life of Wall Street... ).

 

[Mirt]

Part of having a sandbox game is that anything can go together. That’s the fun of it. You get a boost to some necro spells with negative karma. Without positive karma chiv does not work as well. The fact that people found a way to combine them is natural. I don't like the idea of putting anything in UO that cannot be put with something else because it’s a quick hop to classes if that’s done. I like things being classless so Chiv and Necro are the opposites of it. Can things be combined to work together sure, just like you can have archers with ninja. It’s the way open ended worlds should be.

 

[Llewen]

Part of having a sandbox game is that anything can go together. That’s the fun of it. You get a boost to some necro spells with negative karma. Without positive karma chiv does not work as well. The fact that people found a way to combine them is natural. I don't like the idea of putting anything in UO that cannot be put with something else because it’s a quick hop to classes if that’s done. I like things being classless so Chiv and Necro are the opposites of it. Can things be combined to work together sure, just like you can have archers with ninja. It’s the way open ended worlds should be.

Gamers have a tendency to confuse "sandbox" with "no rules or limits", in the same way some people confuse "freedom" with the "no rules or limits". The truth is if there are no rules or limits, there is no game, and no choices to be made whatsoever. Paradoxically the whole concept of freedom of choice is predicated on the preexistence of rules and limits.

Introducing a consistent and logical limit such as my suggestion with regard to karma is not going to change the fact that UO is a sandbox game, or turn it into a class based game, anymore than the thousands of other rules and limits in the game do.

 

[Mirt]

I would disagree here. What your asking for is a skill that if you have another skill you cannot use. That is actually how classes start. If you’re not seeing that I am sorry but I am directly opposed to that idea. I would not favor any skill that can not be combined with all of the other skills in the game.

 

[Llewen]

I would disagree here. What your asking for is a skill that if you have another skill you cannot use. That is actually how classes start. If you’re not seeing that I am sorry but I am directly opposed to that idea. I would not favor any skill that can not be combined with all of the other skills in the game.

Actually, the limitation is karma, not the other skill, and it makes perfect sense. And to say that this would be a step down the road toward a class based system is patently ridiculous. My feeling here is that you don't like my tone, and I've got your back up as a result...

Regardless of whether this idea is implemented or not, you should simply not be able to use chivalry if you have negative karma. As someone further up the thread noted, there was a time when karma actually meant something, and that is one thing I am trying to restore with this suggestion - the meaning of karma.

And that is also the logical conclusion of the removal of logical rules and limits, the absence of meaning. If you remove all rules and limits, what you eventually end up with is an empty void where no choices are possible, because there is no context to give a choice any meaning.

One of the primary reasons why MMO game fiction is so often an abysmal failure, in terms of it actually contributing anything meaningful to the average game player's in game experience, is that it isn't supported by game mechanics. The "game lore" if you like, surrounding the chivalry skill is broken and meaningless, because it isn't supported by the game mechanics involved.

 

[Mirt]

If you’re trying to use chiv with negative karma you’re not going to get all that much out of it. Your cleanse by fire will be a nightmare; your close wounds will not help at all. I have not yet done all the testing but I would say your consecrate weapon would not last at all and neither would your EoO. I think most people that talk about using a sampire think that your running negative karma when in truth your not. A sampire is more equivalent to a knight going down the wrong path. They are constantly trying to do the right thing (in UO killing evil monsters to get karma) but they are seduced by the power that evil brings (necromancy). Its a constant struggle to keep your spells effective. In fact I have to go and seriously farm the karma up on my sampire as even with 8k positive my spells are just not effective enough.

 

[Llewen]

If you’re trying to use chiv with negative karma you’re not going to get all that much out of it. Your cleanse by fire will be a nightmare; your close wounds will not help at all. I have not yet done all the testing but I would say your consecrate weapon would not last at all and neither would your EoO. I think most people that talk about using a sampire think that your running negative karma when in truth your not. A sampire is more equivalent to a knight going down the wrong path. They are constantly trying to do the right thing (in UO killing evil monsters to get karma) but they are seduced by the power that evil brings (necromancy). Its a constant struggle to keep your spells effective. In fact I have to go and seriously farm the karma up on my sampire as even with 8k positive my spells are just not effective enough.

Well said, and point well taken.