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(Player News) So, we have a White alliance. Why not a Dark one?

Silent Singer

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
You just started a guild? Wait, I'm in your guild!? Now I'm super confused.

But I'm down for a vice alliance, the only problem is we tend to be EXTREMELY individualistic and strong willed. That whole sheep and wolves thing ya know. If only we had a sword in a stone or something, maybe a watery tart lobbing scimitars or some such nonsense to appoint a leader......
 

FrejaSP

Queen of The Outlaws
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Patron
Not easy to allie the dark side in one alliance, how would they find a good fight then?
I do agree we could need a non alliance but a Dark Council based on a Guild/community forum here on Stratics and maybe an ICQ group to make the dark side work better together and still be able to fight each others in game.
 

Blind Otto

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
[DISCLAIMER: Create all the alliances you like, I really do not mind, and certainly have no power to make you create one, or stay out of one]

My two copper pieces worth...

In most societies, the "good" join together for protection and safety. This normally results in the creation and documentation of rules and laws to live by.
This is why most societies have more law-abiding citizens than they do criminals.
As time goes by, those laws/rules get more and more complicated, and we end up with a serious infestation of lawyers.
Thank goodness Siege isn't quite at THAT point yet! We don't want a lawyer template!!! (Samlawyers? Lawpires?)

Anyway, while "good" people might find it useful, even helpful, to have those structures, "evil" people generally do not. They see those laws as a tool to oppress them.
One reason for that is, they tend to be out for themselves.

Now, before you all jump down my throat, think about it. A "strong" (in terms of actual power, wealth, OR influence) leader will typically gather people who can further their goals around them. That's not necessarily just an evil thing, it applies to good as well. But, in the case of evil, the goal is normally (not always) to put the leader at the top of the heap.

Alliances between evil groups may occur from time to time, but they will generally dissolve when one leader's ambitions outstrip the others.
But, I would expect to see alliances between evil parties appear and die over time.


However, there is another group, who are considered to be good or evil depending on your perspective, and I WOULD expect to see alliances between these people.
These are your freedom fighters, your rebels - those who are fed up with the current "regime" and want to take power away from the current "rulers", in order to change society for what they see as a better way.

Looking at a LOT of the recent discussions on these forums, I think that some of the people who identify themselves as "dark" actually fall into this last category.
From the point of view of the "white", yes, they are evil. If this was real life, some might even call them terrorists.
From their own point of view, they are not. They are fighting for their rights, and their freedoms. To my mind, that fits well with a lot of what I hear going on around here lately.

Just my observations and opinions, not intended to get anyone worked up, I'm not telling you to change your roleplay, or even to convince Grim to change Sundays to "Rebel Alliance Day". *grins*

I'm just suggesting that a "dark" alliance might not really be the best fit. Or I'm over-analysing things. Anyway, that's my two copper pieces. Don't spend them all in one place!
 

Eärendil

Legendary Mall Santa
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Compliments for a very thorough sociological elaboration of the foundations of human societies. Please note, that the aspect of "social control" comes before the "law" and that most individuals have a genuine interest in obeying the social control of their fellow citizens in order to be integrated into society and to benefit from their protection and products. And this holds true for all kinds of societies, "evil" and "good" ones - like the mafia, for example, which is following their own code of conduct, ethics and social control (cosa nostra = our common "thing"). Hence follows, that there should be a certain interest among the "evil" community for social integration, too - put aside the fact (as you point out) that the attributes "good" and "evil" stem from the individual point of view (freedom fighters vs. oppressors). If true jerks, however, fit in any of those categories, is not a point I wish to discuss. But, as we all know, true jerks are part of all societies - SP is not better than RL in that respect. I just would wish so much honesty in all SP-players, that they could name the difference between a true jerk (like we have seen in recent months) and a great evil RP-player with a high moral standard, such as Vinny and Max (and we all love those players, "we" on the "good" side - but "we" dont love "jerks" and their cheerleaders)... But this is a completely different discussion. Hence, I was and I am a big fan of the VICE-alliance and -community, even though my individual playstyle (and, of course, RL) let me make different decisions lately.

How Babydoll always says: "Nothing but love for you, VICE-SP" ;)

*tips hat*
 
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FrejaSP

Queen of The Outlaws
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Patron
Very well put Otto, and noone really want a Dark Alliance. However if they (we) do feel need to fight for their freedom, it may happen. My Advice to White Council and other follow the "good" law, give the other side a little line and they may not get aggressive and nasty. :)
 

Eärendil

Legendary Mall Santa
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yea, our fault, if they get nasty. I remember! :D

No trolling intended, just kidding...
 

Sargatanza

Journeyman
Hahaha, Mr Otto GORGEOUS!!!
For me, there is no dark or white ("good" or "bad"), i see it like someone allows himself to do something and someone not, or someone capable of some things and somebody ignores them.
Its not cool for me if someone acting on me with a "bad" things and on the contrary; but the movement to prevent killing elemen of surprise, you start loosing the feeling when you don't know what to expect. By my point of view there is a lot of things, that killing elemen of surprise, many not seen before you are ready for them.
Other way, giving "free will" to do whatever He\She want can be disaster. That's where the idea of King Kelmo can show itself in all its glory!
 

FrejaSP

Queen of The Outlaws
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Patron
did it the same way for about 15 public hunts until HI-5 showed up and said they would not attack my hunts with reds and blues as long as no GIL-players show up. That is the problem, see? I was forced to pick sides and I did - I would never abandon my GIL-friends. But many on the shard did. But well, folks tend to forget their mistakes...
Why was you forced to pick side? You could just tell them all was welcome in your hunts and if they wanted to attack, so be it. I remember telling them if they attacked when TDO was there, we would side with the hunting party. HI-5 never had a problem with that.

Nor did HI-5 or Luna Boys have a problem with TDO side with GIL and others if they attacked the VvV events and wanted to loot.

But I do understand you, I had the same problem, just the other way, when I was told of GIL, I had to abandon my HI-5 friends/customers or others like them but I did not abandon any of the sides even I was frozen out of one of the sides.

Don't let anyone tell you, what you can do and not do. :)
 

Max Blackoak

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I remember telling them if they attacked when TDO was there, we would side with the hunting party. HI-5 never had a problem with that.

Nor did HI-5 or Luna Boys have a problem with TDO side with GIL and others if they attacked the VvV events and wanted to loot.
Of course they didn't have a problem with TDO siding with the hunting party or GIL because to them that equals more targets, which equals more loot. Don't lend yourself to illusions that TDO could actually do anything against even a single Hi5 or LB player. Even if they didn't loot you they still wouldn't have cared about it because to them you're just another body on the floor.
I'm not saying they're invincible but you need to be extremely coordinated to catch one of them, especially when they're crosshealing. Both, TDO and most of the time GIL simply lack that kind of coordination. (Not necessarily saying me and my people are better btw)

Also on the picking sides issue: picking sides is something people should embrace. Conflict is the very thing Siege has been thriving on. Conflict creates community. It creates solidarity, even if it is the solidarity among victims or the weak. And community has always been something exclusive. No matter how open a community is, each community always has to draw boundaries and mark what's in and out or in other terms friend or foe. This is by the way the very essence of politics: the determination of what's friend and what's foe, who is us and who is them. Taken to extremes this will lead to down right hatred. Taken in a playful way it simply means conflict or excluding those elements you don't like but that doesn't necessarily have to escalate to wanting to exterminate the enemy (or in our case make them quit the shard). I don't see picking sides as something negative, it's natural, it takes place every day and with every choice we make and in the long run it will create strong communities on both sides of the fence.

Look at GIL for example. They are a rather open community offering certain community oriented services even but still they are also exclusive...not everybody can join them and they draw a strict line as to what playstyle they find acceptable and what they don't. GIL has been targeted by many PK guilds over the years. But that didn't drive them off the shard. Quite the contrary I would assume (I can only make assmuptions because I lack inside view of GIL, so correct me if I'm wrong). While being a nasty experience and a nuisance to them, the PKs actually made GIL's community stronger because they had a common enemy. They needed to adapt to the situation of course but they did. So while many GIL may passionately and truely hate PKs and would like to see them off Siege, they found a way to coexist, even if that means they simply avoid them as good as possible. In some cases GIL even found the courage to fight back. I remember one day they actually managed to kill and loot Virem when he was ambushing the sunday VvV. I would imagine they must have felt pretty good after that and it helped to strengthen their community. But even if they're on the receiving end of the killing and looting it will strangthen their solidarity because they'll help each other out to make up for the losses etc.

So don't see picking sides as negative. Accept it as a natural process.
 

Eärendil

Legendary Mall Santa
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
EDIT: DELETED. My prior remarks do not bring this issue forward.

Back to OT: There is a white and a dark alliance and those are perfect places offering great communities. You will be able to enjoy the whole life of UO and all activities possible. Fantastic people on both sides (and outside, too).
 
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FrejaSP

Queen of The Outlaws
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Patron
As long all show respect to each others, I don't think we should fear debatting it. If we want this Siege Community Council to work, we do need try to understand each others and respect we do have different opinions and maybe different ways to play the game.
I will not say more about the past but focus on the future and yes on healing so we can get the fun back on Siege for all.
 

Sargatanza

Journeyman
Of course they didn't have a problem with TDO siding with the hunting party or GIL because to them that equals more targets, which equals more loot. Don't lend yourself to illusions that TDO could actually do anything against even a single Hi5 or LB player. Even if they didn't loot you they still wouldn't have cared about it because to them you're just another body on the floor.
I'm not saying they're invincible but you need to be extremely coordinated to catch one of them, especially when they're crosshealing. Both, TDO and most of the time GIL simply lack that kind of coordination. (Not necessarily saying me and my people are better btw)

Also on the picking sides issue: picking sides is something people should embrace. Conflict is the very thing Siege has been thriving on. Conflict creates community. It creates solidarity, even if it is the solidarity among victims or the weak. And community has always been something exclusive. No matter how open a community is, each community always has to draw boundaries and mark what's in and out or in other terms friend or foe. This is by the way the very essence of politics: the determination of what's friend and what's foe, who is us and who is them. Taken to extremes this will lead to down right hatred. Taken in a playful way it simply means conflict or excluding those elements you don't like but that doesn't necessarily have to escalate to wanting to exterminate the enemy (or in our case make them quit the shard). I don't see picking sides as something negative, it's natural, it takes place every day and with every choice we make and in the long run it will create strong communities on both sides of the fence.

Look at GIL for example. They are a rather open community offering certain community oriented services even but still they are also exclusive...not everybody can join them and they draw a strict line as to what playstyle they find acceptable and what they don't. GIL has been targeted by many PK guilds over the years. But that didn't drive them off the shard. Quite the contrary I would assume (I can only make assmuptions because I lack inside view of GIL, so correct me if I'm wrong). While being a nasty experience and a nuisance to them, the PKs actually made GIL's community stronger because they had a common enemy. They needed to adapt to the situation of course but they did. So while many GIL may passionately and truely hate PKs and would like to see them off Siege, they found a way to coexist, even if that means they simply avoid them as good as possible. In some cases GIL even found the courage to fight back. I remember one day they actually managed to kill and loot Virem when he was ambushing the sunday VvV. I would imagine they must have felt pretty good after that and it helped to strengthen their community. But even if they're on the receiving end of the killing and looting it will strangthen their solidarity because they'll help each other out to make up for the losses etc.

So don't see picking sides as negative. Accept it as a natural process.
I'm agree! meanwhile:
 

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