Slayers and Imbuing could lead to a problem

[Trebr Drab]

Some day, soon, the majority of players will have slayer weapons with just the right other abilities for all the top critters. Then UO is going to have to beef up these critters to keep them a challenge. At that point, it would become nye on impossible to fight them without slayers.

Is this what we want? To have a different weapon for every critter, and no other weapon is good for it?

If not (and I don't), one suggestion is to change "slayer" to be something like a 10% damage boost.

 

[-=KLiM=-]

to be honest, you only benefit from slayer if you 1) are a mage or 2) dont have bushido. With EoO and perfection + 100 di from items you already have 300 DI which is the cap, so no slayer will make you better. And you can't imbue spellbooks, so...

 

[deraiky]

Who needs a slayer ?
I get my 300 damage increase without too..

 

[hen]

Pure warriors need a slayer. I don't like all that ninja cherry tree nonsense in Sossaria so I avoid it.

 

[Trebr Drab]

OK, wait, I'm not that far sunken into UO that I know everything, but are you telling me that the cap is 300% of weapon damage? Holy Sheets!

Does anyone else not see a problem here? Or am I just too old fashioned and expect some semblance of reason in my gaming.

 

[ZidjiN]

OK, wait, I'm not that far sunken into UO that I know everything, but are you telling me that the cap is 300% of weapon damage? Holy Sheets!

Does anyone else not see a problem here? Or am I just too old fashioned and expect some semblance of reason in my gaming.

As the above posters allready said. Most players allready do as much dmg possible WITHOUT slayers. Dexers with bushido that is.

You get 100% DI from items (thats the DI cap fromitems)
you get 100% DI from Enemy of one
you get up to 100% DI from perfection

And yes the cap is 300%di as of today. So if you add a layer your dmg wont increase anyway.

 

[Trebr Drab]

As the above posters allready said. Most players allready do as much dmg possible WITHOUT slayers. Dexers with bushido that is.

You get 100% DI from items (thats the DI cap fromitems)
you get 100% DI from Enemy of one
you get up to 100% DI from perfection

And yes the cap is 300%di as of today. So if you add a layer your dmg wont increase anyway.

Well, as you can see, there is a problem then. That being that certain templates and gear puts you at the top tier, and anything else becomes useless.

That's a lot of useless things.

So, any warrior that doesn't have both Chivalry and Bushido is at a huge disadvantage to those who do.
I assume there's a similar structured Mage/Necro template.
And then you have tamers.

Any other template is at least 1/3 to 2/3 less able?
And that's assuming you have top gear?

Doesn't anyone else see a problem with that structure?

 

[aarons6]

who cares, slayers should be easy to get..
same with other items with the properties you need.. its a game, not a life goal..

i LOVE imbuing, my chars are all set up now.. with the missing pieces they needed that was impossible to find or get because of the RNG.

 

[Poo]

So, any warrior that doesn't have both Chivalry and Bushido is at a huge disadvantage to those who do.
I assume there's a similar structured Mage/Necro template.
And then you have tamers.

so youve listed off bushy warriors, necro mages, and tamers......

who else is left?

what are you hunting with?
a spellweaving herder with item id?

if your warrior dosnt have chiv and or bushy thats.... well that just silly.
you have to at least have chiv on a warrior.
so if you have a warrior and you max out your DI with items (which isnt that hard, weapon is gonna be at least 40, stormgrips are 25 and tali is 20 so thats 85 without even getting to your rind and watch)
and you DONT have busy.
and you have chiv.

so what... your 100 points behind the bushy guy cause your sitting only at 200% instead of the 300%.
well, make that up by USING a slayer.
now your once again on a level playing field.

really, its the persons personal choice as to what template they use and what gear they wear.
if you make a bad choice why should other poeple be penalised for it?

either you wanna be the fella with the big stick doing all the damage and taking all the damage, or you wanna be the little fella in the shadows with the thin dagger poking annoying holes when no one is looking.

ya cant be both.

 

[Ender]

Don't take away reasons to train up imbuing. Quit whining.

 

[popps]

Some day, soon, the majority of players will have slayer weapons with just the right other abilities for all the top critters. Then UO is going to have to beef up these critters to keep them a challenge. At that point, it would become nye on impossible to fight them without slayers.

Is this what we want? To have a different weapon for every critter, and no other weapon is good for it?

If not (and I don't), one suggestion is to change "slayer" to be something like a 10% damage boost.

Well, perhaps in a future expansion we will see Ultima Online make a come back to being more skill based than item based ?

If so, I think the problem would no longer be there (the slayers, that is....).........

 

[Trebr Drab]

Well, perhaps in a future expansion we will see Ultima Online make a come back to being more skill based than item based ?

If so, I think the problem would no longer be there (the slayers, that is....).........

Well, it appears in this case that slayers would only be a problem if skills were no longer a problem.

 

[Trebr Drab]

so youve listed off bushy warriors, necro mages, and tamers......

who else is left?

what are you hunting with?
a spellweaving herder with item id?

if your warrior dosnt have chiv and or bushy thats.... well that just silly.
you have to at least have chiv on a warrior.
so if you have a warrior and you max out your DI with items (which isnt that hard, weapon is gonna be at least 40, stormgrips are 25 and tali is 20 so thats 85 without even getting to your rind and watch)
and you DONT have busy.
and you have chiv.

so what... your 100 points behind the bushy guy cause your sitting only at 200% instead of the 300%.
well, make that up by USING a slayer.
now your once again on a level playing field.

really, its the persons personal choice as to what template they use and what gear they wear.
if you make a bad choice why should other poeple be penalised for it?

either you wanna be the fella with the big stick doing all the damage and taking all the damage, or you wanna be the little fella in the shadows with the thin dagger poking annoying holes when no one is looking.

ya cant be both.

Why? Why must players have to choose a specific few templates in a game with so many skills?

How about this template:
Swords
Anatomy
Tactics
Healing
Detect Hidden
Tracking
Camping

Now, obviously quite a few people are going "Camping?" right now. Why is that? Because right now it's useless. And even with any other choice for that last skill, this template is still usefull only to hunt a few critters like Orc Scouts.
But the entire point is--why does it have to be this way? Wouldn't the game be a lot more fun to open it up to more template options?
I'm not saying that a tracker should be as good in combat as a warrior of that specific template, I'm saying that this template should not be that far worse that it's so useless.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Are you really suggesting that all 56 skills should be balanced in a way that no combination can ever reach a possible max over another combination? Also if you remove the cap for damage, than all you would achieve is that the people with the best possible combination would always be better than someone else, where as with the cap there are multiple ways to reach the possible cap. Let us be logical in our arguments.....Although I sort of agree with popps about the item based gaming, it has been what? 9 years? lets move on from that argument.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Why? Why must players have to choose a specific few templates in a game with so many skills?

How about this template:
Swords
Anatomy
Tactics
Healing
Detect Hidden
Tracking
Camping

Now, obviously quite a few people are going "Camping?" right now. Why is that? Because right now it's useless. And even with any other choice for that last skill, this template is still usefull only to hunt a few critters like Orc Scouts.
But the entire point is--why does it have to be this way? Wouldn't the game be a lot more fun to open it up to more template options?
I'm not saying that a tracker should be as good in combat as a warrior of that specific template, I'm saying that this template should not be that far worse that it's so useless.

Its not "useless" for one, and for two we play an "mmoRPG" that means you role play whatever template you choose. If you want a powerhouse then play one, if you want to be a thief with 0 damaging ability play that.

For example one of my templates is as follows

Chivalry
Stealth
Hiding
Tracking
Detect Hidden
Spirit Speak

Now is that template usefull to you? Most likely not, but I sure have the most fun with that template than any of my others.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Are you really suggesting that all 56 skills should be balanced in a way that no combination can ever reach a possible max over another combination? Also if you remove the cap for damage, than all you would achieve is that the people with the best possible combination would always be better than someone else, where as with the cap there are multiple ways to reach the possible cap. Let us be logical in our arguments.....Although I sort of agree with popps about the item based gaming, it has been what? 9 years? lets move on from that argument.

No, all I'm saying is that it should be closer so that other options can be used, that's all.

Has it really been 9 years? And in that time, there's been a few attempts by the Devs to solve the problem (so it IS a problem). It was never "items". UO had items from the start. It was over powered items that was the problem, an imbalance. They worked on it and ended up with caps. But the problem of imbalance is quite obviously still here, and it currently includes certain skill sets.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Its not "useless" for one, and for two we play an "mmoRPG" that means you role play whatever template you choose. If you want a powerhouse then play one, if you want to be a thief with 0 damaging ability play that.

For example one of my templates is as follows

Chivalry
Stealth
Hiding
Tracking
Detect Hidden
Spirit Speak

Now is that template usefull to you? Most likely not, but I sure have the most fun with that template than any of my others.

But you are limited to one specific play style with that template. You can't survive an accidental targeting of a sparrow with that template unless you run like a little girl. Does that make sense?

 

[Gheed]

Some day, soon, the majority of players will have slayer weapons with just the right other abilities for all the top critters. Then UO is going to have to beef up these critters to keep them a challenge. At that point, it would become nye on impossible to fight them without slayers.

Is this what we want? To have a different weapon for every critter, and no other weapon is good for it?

If not (and I don't), one suggestion is to change "slayer" to be something like a 10% damage boost.

Thing is... the same folks that make the radar... are also making the radar detectors. The latest additions always seem to nuetralize w/e template is in favor for the month. Bosses that teleport on top of archers, throw "bones" turn dragons wild or are resistant to summoned creatures.

The devs like to throw us curve balls that turn w/e system we are fighting with on it's ear. So things like the city invations a while back... where we fought Generals for high end weapons. That makes more sense for imbued slayers. Lots of damage against mobs with lots of hitpoints causing lots of wear. It was common for me to repair my weapons after each wave of the invasion.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Well, whatever. I made my point if anyone cares to listen. Got better things to do than go back and forth on it.

 

[Thrakkar]

Would be cool, if they split all the skills into two groups. Primary (Magery, Tailoring, Taming, Fencing, etc...) & secondary skills (Herding, Tracking, Camping, Begging, etc..). Overall skill cap would remain at 700 (720), and a cap for primary skills would be at 500 (520). Leaving at least 200 points to secondary skills.

Guess, that would make it lots more interesting (at least for me)

 

[Poo]

Its not "useless" for one, and for two we play an "mmoRPG" that means you role play whatever template you choose. If you want a powerhouse then play one, if you want to be a thief with 0 damaging ability play that.

For example one of my templates is as follows

Chivalry
Stealth
Hiding
Tracking
Detect Hidden
Spirit Speak

Now is that template usefull to you? Most likely not, but I sure have the most fun with that template than any of my others.

i dont dissagree with you that mixed templates are good.
i myself have a lot of dead skills on my toons.

where i DO disagree is that if your gonna put on a pink frilly dress and run into the middle of a fight you should also be the first one to die.

ok, thats a harsh way to put it, but the fact of the matter is if you wanna measure two toons against each other the one who is made to fight and has all his skills into the HCI and DCI and damage then he SHOULD out damage the fella who wants to RP and has detect hidden on his template along with other skills that dont enhance the damage to mobs.

basically you cant have your cake and eat it too.
either your a killer or your a RPer.

i think your gonna be hard pressed to find anyone who will say that they both should do the exact same damage to a critter.

 

[Norrar]

Or you're an RPer who -likes- to pvp, and can do so, heh.

To the OP though,

SA has,sure, added the ability to make whatever weapon you want. But it also flung tougher monsters at us. And the longer it takes you to kill a monster, the faster your weapon dies.

So, unless you PoF your weapon to 255/255 durability every time... Those weapons will break. Alot.

Example- I went to TC to try Imbuing out. Imbued a katana with these props.

Repond Slayer
40 HSL
30 SSI
15 HCI
40 DI

Ring and Brace were the same.
20 DI
8 LMC
10 HCI
10 DCI

After suit was made I had.

35 HCI
45 DCI
100 DI (Primer on Arms added)
39 LMC (Rune Beetle Carapace and arms with 8 lmc added)
30 SSI

Typical Sampire Temp
100 Necro
120 swords
120 tactics
120 bushido
100 chiv
120 parry
40 Focus

Resists were:
70 67 70 70 70 (In Vamp form)

First test. Vermin Horde Champ Spawn - Fel Despise.

After killing coon, my weapons durability was at 0/243.

Repaired it and due to failures, it became 239/239.

Test 2 - Cavern of Discard in the Abyss.

After taking down all three mini-bosses, the katana was at 0/143.



Needless to say, these weapons won't last long.

The slayer property and ability to add DI or whatever onto equipment will
-not- allow players to powergame any more than they already could.
And in any case, whats the differance between the player with a weapon imbued, and the one with the kryss crafted from a verite hammer? Nothing.

 

[mjolnir131]

well we have had the 300 cap for several years now and the game has not ended, those the complain about skill vs item have ussually neighter .you could take the top outfited ABC and give it to them and they could still not fly it.. becouse it does take alot of skill to run the High Damage output templets,yes they could be killing higher level monsters than they are now but would be no where close to what the templet is capable of doing.

Nobody is forcing anybody to have any templet. it's your right to have a templet that it takes a group of 3 to take down an ice feind or artic ogre lord that's your play style so enjoy it but don't claim it's the items doing it for the other guy they help yes but it still takes skill skills your not willing to learn.

 

[Theo_GL]

Some day, soon, the majority of players will have slayer weapons with just the right other abilities for all the top critters. Then UO is going to have to beef up these critters to keep them a challenge. At that point, it would become nye on impossible to fight them without slayers.

Is this what we want? To have a different weapon for every critter, and no other weapon is good for it?

If not (and I don't), one suggestion is to change "slayer" to be something like a 10% damage boost.

Yes, that was my feedback in beta.

It makes no sense to have the super slayers being rare runic rolls if you can just add them later through imbuing. I was hoping they would have restricted imbuing on slayers. So at least you'd have to burn enough runics to make an elemental slayer - not just click Imbue Elemental.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

i dont dissagree with you that mixed templates are good.
i myself have a lot of dead skills on my toons.

where i DO disagree is that if your gonna put on a pink frilly dress and run into the middle of a fight you should also be the first one to die.

ok, thats a harsh way to put it, but the fact of the matter is if you wanna measure two toons against each other the one who is made to fight and has all his skills into the HCI and DCI and damage then he SHOULD out damage the fella who wants to RP and has detect hidden on his template along with other skills that dont enhance the damage to mobs.

basically you cant have your cake and eat it too.
either your a killer or your a RPer.

i think your gonna be hard pressed to find anyone who will say that they both should do the exact same damage to a critter.

Uhm....you quoted me, and stated you disagree with something, but really you agreed with me, . Might be a misquote or perhaps the disagreement was not to me, but i said if you want to play a powerhouse then do so, if not then don't, and gave an example of such a "non-powerhouse" template

 

[Warpig Inc]

Burned 23 runics so far copper to dull makeing things to unravel. Not one super slayer. Be lucky to get a dragon or ogre. But there is the 120 luck and the 25 HCI or DCI and resist up to 18% so far. Have a but load of boomerangs with 30%SSI so far to slap the super slayer to. And I'll let it leak here once that the ringmail mine gloves can be imbued with LRC and mage armor now. Another is that practice weapons can be imbued. I'm out .......... [ImQ]

 

[Uvtha]

Meh, I think people already have thier slayers anyway. I know I do, and I'm poor.

 

[mjolnir131]

i never get alot of slayers from dull coppers i see more with shadow and more still with gold i wounder if it's weighted a bit

 

[bumblefutz]

I brought this up eons ago before I left the game last time, and got shouted down by people who think the only melee templates should be paladin, samurai paladin, and necromancer paladin.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Its not "useless" for one, and for two we play an "mmoRPG" that means you role play whatever template you choose. If you want a powerhouse then play one, if you want to be a thief with 0 damaging ability play that.

For example one of my templates is as follows

Chivalry
Stealth
Hiding
Tracking
Detect Hidden
Spirit Speak

Now is that template usefull to you? Most likely not, but I sure have the most fun with that template than any of my others.

You posted this responce.
But you are limited to one specific play style with that template. You can't survive an accidental targeting of a sparrow with that template unless you run like a little girl. Does that make sense?
And posted this template
How about this template:
Swords
Anatomy
Tactics
Healing
Detect Hidden
Tracking
Camping



I find your answer to his template very interesting.
So what spawn are you going to kill with this?

 

[Lord Frodo]

OK you gonna make a Super Slayer.
Super slayer is 130pts
SSI 30% 110pts
DI 50 100pts

so far you have 340 out of 500 points. what else you want on it? And the cost in resources is already high as it is. Trying for that 4th imbue is really gonna cost you. What HCI 15 is 130 pts and will cost you more than it is worth.

This would be one very expensive wep. that you prob. never make back in gold resources gathered from it.

 

[Pinco]

with my archer I repair the bow 2 times per day.
each time I must use 3-4 repair deed because bowcraft fail a lot to repair, so the bow lose 4-5 point of durability.
8-10 durability lost per day mean that the bow has a medium life of 30 days.

Now for make with imbuing a nice slayer bow we need to spare lot of resources for something that in 30 days will break forever...

 

[Silverbird]

Cheap slayer bows? try to imbue a juka slayer. *g*

As for weird melee-templates ... I am a specialist for such. I am having fun somtimes with my necro-dexxer (no vam-/sampire ... a true necro):
- swords, ana, tact, heal, necro, ss, some focus
If I could add more skills to her, i probably would go for sw, mysticism and magic resist.
My equipment is not that good, but I enjoy that char and I use slayers were I am able to.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

As the above posters allready said. Most players allready do as much dmg possible WITHOUT slayers. Dexers with bushido that is.

You get 100% DI from items (thats the DI cap fromitems)
you get 100% DI from Enemy of one
you get up to 100% DI from perfection

And yes the cap is 300%di as of today. So if you add a layer your dmg wont increase anyway.

Well, as you can see, there is a problem then. That being that certain templates and gear puts you at the top tier, and anything else becomes useless.

That's a lot of useless things.

So, any warrior that doesn't have both Chivalry and Bushido is at a huge disadvantage to those who do.
I assume there's a similar structured Mage/Necro template.
And then you have tamers.

Any other template is at least 1/3 to 2/3 less able?
And that's assuming you have top gear?

Doesn't anyone else see a problem with that structure?

You my friend seem to have template issues

If your main objective is to slay critters then your adjust your template accordingly and should probably include Chivalry & Bushido.
If your main objective is Pvp then you may not want both Chivalry & Bushido on your Warrior and you most definitely dont want it on your Mage unless he is a freaky hybrid.

Its not rocket science and it has basically been a part of Uo "structure" since day 1.

Nobody should be able to play 1 template that is optimal in all situations. And every Warrior template/combination does not need to have an equal Mage/Necro counterpart.

Lastly, not being at "the top tier" does not make anyone or anything "useless"
Anybody can put together a basic and specific template with average gear and do quite well with some smarts & experience.
Unfortunately too many people dont understand this and are simply obsessed with the haves and have nots in this world. Our friend Popps could enlighten you more about this though.

Peace

 

[mjolnir131]

LS just beats the crap out of a bow.

 

[Trebr Drab]

You my friend seem to have template issues

Yes I do.

If your main objective is to slay critters then your adjust your template accordingly and should probably include Chivalry & Bushido.
If your main objective is Pvp then you may not want both Chivalry & Bushido on your Warrior and you most definitely dont want it on your Mage unless he is a freaky hybrid.

My question is why does it have to be that way. This is WoW style, not UO.

Its not rocket science and it has basically been a part of Uo "structure" since day 1.

No it hasn't. You were here on day 1 I believe, or soon after. You know that there were no "templates" then, you could gain in any and all skills you wanted. Anatomy didn't affect combat. Tactics affected hit chance. There was nothing that gave you 200% increased damage. The best was a max of 20% from strength + a max of 25 points for Vanquishing. The best weapon was the Halberd, doing 4-48 damage, for an average of 26 damage. Add 6 (20% for strength) and 25 (for Vanquishing) and you get a little over a 100% increase. That's the best one could do. But there was no limitations on skill sets, no requirements of that sort to gimp a character, making all but the one skill set uncompetitive.

Nobody should be able to play 1 template that is optimal in all situations. And every Warrior template/combination does not need to have an equal Mage/Necro counterpart.

How about everyone having some chance, at least a minimal success? How about a variety of templates that work? I'm talking about the top tier here, where right now if you don't have the specific templates you can't even get looting rights.

Lastly, not being at "the top tier" does not make anyone or anything "useless"
Anybody can put together a basic and specific template with average gear and do quite well with some smarts & experience.

Sure, if you want to be a peon.

Unfortunately too many people dont understand this and are simply obsessed with the haves and have nots in this world. Our friend Popps could enlighten you more about this though.

See, you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. I want a more rounded game, one that doesn't have specific elite skill sets that dominate others. It's not any obsession with haves and have-nots, it's a desire to not have that set in stone.

And I'm somewhat surprised, since not only you, but your close friends, have often argued this same thing many times in the past.