Should completley get rid of player looting

[Velvathos]

Except for on Siege.. And a lot more people would PvP...

Then, instead of dying on the spot, make it so that we get teleported to a shrine, resurrected with all of how gear and what not... So, get rid of insurance, have it so there isn't any looting rights at all, a lot more people would PvP.... Maybe on a test server??

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

argh.
How about make it so you cant die?

Then everyone would PvP.

 

[Aibal]

Good God. Talk about a carebear idea...........

 

[Wenchkin]

Ugh!

We already had this sort of rubbish before, once was much more than enough....

If you want to PvP without fear of looting, just set up guild wars in Trammel. Players who don't like the PvP style of Fel have this option. Rather than sanitising Felucca, why not just use the option that's sitting there for you already?

Wenchy

 

[Heimi]

*hijacks thread*

Bring back the ability to loot player bones in Trammel, kthx

 

[Magnus]

I personally think this would be a good idea, but perhaps only toggleable so that the 'hardcore' pvpers could still risk their gear. Honestly, item loss on a non 'hardcore' shard is a silly thing that shouldn't be done anymore, same with corpse decay (servers more than powerful enough to have it last more than 7minutes!).

Its not 'carebear' (not that its a bad thing to like to have a safe game, its another style of play, accept it). Its modernization, if you want hardcore PvP - go to a hardcore server or, heh, Darkfall.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Its not 'carebear'

Yes it is...la

 

[Kratos Aurion]

People who "nay" the idea without seeing the full picture are too naive to consider a half-ass or great idea to begin with.

I personally think it would benefit the game. Remove item insurance (gives thieves and incentive to pack steal), then remove corpse looting (because we all wear LRC gear these days anyway).

This way when you die, depending on how the system is created, you can either just die and run/res then you're back in the game or get teleported to the nearest shrine, get resurected then recall back to PvP or what not.

It would also be helpful in balancing the system because a lot of people like to PvP with multiple weapons and use 3rd party apps to hotkey between them. While it's still possible, they run the risk at having an inventoried weapon stolen which would cause the individual to cater to his best playstyle versus multiple overpowered ones.

 

[Petra Fyde]

The problem is, you're generalising.

we all wear LRC gear these days

That's untrue, sorry. Several of my characters don't have lrc gear.

 

[Lord Patapon]

Err ... I don't like this idea at all.

The risk in game has already been almost suppressed.
Why more ? I don't want UO to look like many MMOs out there.
I like that system.

And I play both facet. (just in case ... lol)

 

[Kratos Aurion]

The problem is, you're generalising.

That's untrue, sorry. Several of my characters don't have lrc gear.

My alchemist doesn't wear LRC either. It would defeat the purpose. I am generalizing the majority of the game through the majority of most PvPers/PvMers.

Obviously if you die with regs on you, you run the risk of being looted anyways (and you already have the potential to be stolen from). So how would this change effect you again?

*edit*

I don't see why you would grip over using regs anyways. If your corpse was teleported to the nearest shrine, you wouldn't have to worry about looting your corpse to begin with. It would just create a further use for thieves (which you already run the risk of).

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

I really do not care for this idea.

Already, too much has been done to remove any risk in UO both in PvP and PvM.

The old system of no insurance, freely lootable corpses should be brought back for Fel. And in Trammel, things should stay the way they are, but you should only be able to insure 1 or maybe 2 items.

There has to be some reason to fear death...otherwise, why not just make everyone unkillable?

 

[BloodstoneGL]

Looting is an essential part of PvP. When we roll out and start having large fights, we make sure to loots pots, aids, etc... to keep them from coming right back in to the fight completely armed up to the teeth.

Bad idea.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

Depending on how the system would be implemented ultimately determines the amount of risk lost/gained is. I personally think this system would introduce more risk vs removing it if it's implemented correctly. Especially if you PvP with extra gear in your pack that you cannot insure and thieves make a comeback.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

People who "nay" the idea without seeing the full picture are too naive to consider a half-ass or great idea to begin with.

I personally think it would benefit the game. Remove item insurance (gives thieves and incentive to pack steal), then remove corpse looting (because we all wear LRC gear these days anyway).

This way when you die, depending on how the system is created, you can either just die and run/res then you're back in the game or get teleported to the nearest shrine, get resurected then recall back to PvP or what not.

It would also be helpful in balancing the system because a lot of people like to PvP with multiple weapons and use 3rd party apps to hotkey between them. While it's still possible, they run the risk at having an inventoried weapon stolen which would cause the individual to cater to his best playstyle versus multiple overpowered ones.

Im not just saying "nay"
Im saying no nay way.

Then again I just got slapped in the back of the head by your naive comment.

So your saying no corpse looting but a thief can steal your loot by pack stealing?

I dont think that makes sense now does it.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

I accused players who say "nay" instantaniously are naive. They never look at anything from anyone elses perspective (the pros/cons). I'm fully aware of the changes it would make for fel (and tram) although it wouldn't really affect tram.

The only reason I would accept this change is for thieves. If you think provoking players with further accusations is the only way to solve problems, feel free to encourage threads getting locked.

But since you went and rubbed this thread the wrong way, I'll reframe from encouraging it even more. ok now I'll reframe from encouraging it further. Have a good day

*edit*

No corpse looting but stealing re-encourages players to adopt the once feared playstyle and reintroduce a new threat to fel. It's actually making things one step harder for PvPers, and encouraging them to create/hire thieves for guilds.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Since looting is technically stealing. You could require the stealing skill to loot an item off a corpse...hmmmm.

Could be a cool idea...la

 

[Kratos Aurion]

Since looting is technically stealing. You could require the stealing skill to loot an item off a corpse...hmmmm.

Could be a cool idea...la

There you have it! Now I'm off to college! stop getting me sidetracked *leaves*

 

[Black Majick]

Here is an idea..just leave it alone...fix the folks using speeders and things will be alot better...I personally have almost stopped PvPing because I refuse to cheat and most people I fight if they cannot beat you fair will cheat to win. That might bring back some PvPers....Ex...old guildmate of mine came back to game for few days...he is a die hard PvPer. Well first thing he says to me is "Wow these guys are fast". Now he has quit again...that was his number one complaint, not that he was losing his beloved apples or potions, but because he refused to cheat to win and because of that he lost.

IMO do not take what you cannot afford to lose with you in a PvP fight...easy as that....when I die depending on whether I am freshly restocked or at end of fight I can lose 15 GH, 20 GC, 8-10 GStrentgh, 8-10 GAgility, 5 Conflags, 5-10 GExplosions, 1-2 TBoxes, 6-8 Enchanted Apples, 50-100 Enhanced Bandages and then 4-6 Ornage petals...I have no problem loseing them...gold is easy enough to make now days...and if you cannot afford to lose 12-15k worth of extra on your body (thats buying them off vendor) then dont bring em. If you use regs, dont put 150 each on yourself, put smaller amounts. Also try putting them into smaller stacks of 5-10 in each stack. I do that with bandages and pots...I usually only get 1/3-1/2 of my stuff looted when I die in feild figthing situation as it takes alot longer to loot my corpse...by time they get so far guildmates have swarmed it to get me up and back into the fight. I have stuff to use then.

Back to original anwser though...NO...fix the major issues with PvP right now...I dont hear folks coming hear weekly complaining about someone looting them...I do hear it about mechanics issues and speed enhancement programs. Fix those then see how things are going.

 

[Ghost71]

Lets get rid of stealing! You won't be able to steal anything! Then you could just go to Doom etc and look at all the purty arties that we can no longer get. But ain't it nice to sit and look at em!

 

[Heartseeker]

No.

Trammel is set up for that.

The game is lacking risk as it is.

 

[sablestorm]

The idea of item insurance is much the same as not losing your gear. The only difference is, it is a gold sink and rewards the victor in pvp duels. The Devs implemented insurance hoping to lure more people to Fel. The thinking was, if they can protect their items, they will come. That didn't turn out to be true. The fact of the matter is, there are many many people who do not like seeing their character get killed by another. If you implement this idea of no looting, it won't make a different and will **** off the current pvpers.

 

[Ghost71]

The idea of item insurance is much the same as not losing your gear. The only difference is, it is a gold sink and rewards the victor in pvp duels. The Devs implemented insurance hoping to lure more people to Fel. The thinking was, if they can protect their items, they will come. That didn't turn out to be true. The fact of the matter is, there are many many people who do not like seeing their character get killed by another. If you implement this idea of no looting, it won't make a different and will **** off the current pvpers.

I go to fel with my thief. But all his gear that i usally take is blessed anyways. I've thought about making a old style char never use insurance and just stay in fel. But yeah that's about as far as i've got with that idea.

 

[Bardie]

Except for on Siege.. And a lot more people would PvP...

Then, instead of dying on the spot, make it so that we get teleported to a shrine, resurrected with all of how gear and what not... So, get rid of insurance, have it so there isn't any looting rights at all, a lot more people would PvP.... Maybe on a test server??

Really? im mean really? Holy F, you people never cease to amaze me....

 

[Ghost71]

Really? im mean really? Holy F, you people never cease to amaze me....

I know. I'd only PVP/PK if i knew i could loot. I used to be in Dracul they was a PK guild on Greatlakes, i mainly did the looting and kill the guys horse if he had one. That was some pretty cool times, we'd hide at the xroads and they'd leave bait out waiting for guys to come along and stop to pick it up. Course i couldn't help but watch em go after a guy and think man they look like a pack of wild animals.

 

[ColterDC]

fix the folks using speeders and things will be alot better...I personally have almost stopped PvPing because I refuse to cheat and most people I fight if they cannot beat you fair will cheat to win. That might bring back some PvPers

QFT

I can count about 20 guys I personally know who have quit UO due to all the cheating.

Nothing would "fix" or "balance" PvP as much as getting rid of all the cheats.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

*hijacks thread*

Bring back the ability to loot player bones in Trammel, kthx

I agree!.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Since looting is technically stealing. You could require the stealing skill to loot an item off a corpse...hmmmm.

Could be a cool idea...la

Actually, that is a great idea. Stealing would aid in looting. Higher stealing more chance to find stuff on body or something. That I like.

 

[Stupid Miner]

I would dare to say most people don't PvP because they dont like being ganked mocked and figuratively spat upon... over... and over... and... over again.

No one who is capable of PvPing is going to care too much about losing a 3k gold and some potions, bandaids and petals.

 

[Gandie]

How can you come with such an idea, with a Darkfall sig under your post

 

[Fink]

The problem is, you're generalising.

we all wear LRC gear these days

That's untrue, sorry. Several of my characters don't have lrc gear.

Same, I have several who wear just cloth, no hats, and use real reagents. One of those is a necro/mage would would benefit immensely from lrc but I choose not to use it. Mostly I just don't want to compromise looks with cheap mods.

I also have a few characters who wear wholly lrc, some with partial lrc and use regs, and some that use arcane clothes exclusively. It takes all kinds to make a world...

---
Back on topic.. NO to removal of looting. It's one of the things that makes the game interesting or exciting. There's hardly anything of value to loot these days anyway.

Death without consequences is just is as dull as having infinite savegames, or playing some inferior MMORPG.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Player Looting:

In Fel/Siege rulesets: Should be wide open with only the possibility of going grey for looting someone else's kill before the initial timer runs out or looting another player's corpse (REMOVE instanced corpses from Fel/Siege).

In Trammel: Add in a context sub menu or a section into the User Settings system that allows a player to check or uncheck three options that apply after the initial loot timer:

1. Non-party/guilded characters may loot my corpse (after the initial timer (equal to instanced corpse timer))
2. Party characters may loot my corpse (after the initial timer (equal to instanced corpse timer))
3. Guilded characters may loot my corpse (after the initial timer (equal to instanced corpse timer))

Note that #3 would also allo for Allied guilds to loot your character.

Just IMO.

 

[Cogniac]

Its not 'carebear'

Yes it is...la

I...I...I agree with Rico.

This is a dark day, indeed.

 

[Viper09]

No.
Point one: If you don't want to be player looted, then don't die in fel.
Point two: We already have insurance! With that you already don't get your insured items looted even in fel.
Point three: Items we can't insure are so incredibly easy to replace. (maybe except for cursed items)

 

[Gellor]

As someone else mentioned, I'd bet if you asked all the people who don't PvP why they don't, it has nothing to do with losing gold or pots(or other disposable items), it has more to do with:

1. Cheats and exploits - pick your favorite for this. Every PvPer knows what they are as do many of the Tram people.
2. Attitude - nothing like getting ganked by 10 tamers with greater dragons and then being told you suck at PvP *rolleyes*
3. Training - no, I'm not talking actual skill level but real life ability to PvP. I've known people who could wipe up a shard with no skill above 110 and mediocre equipment.

In the old days(all of 2-3 years ago), Pac's most notorious PvP guild was able to get people to try PvP events we hosted due to our attitude. Great fun was had by all. We didn't smack talk them when we crushed them... didn't rez kill them... etc(at these events... at champs spawns, if we didn't rez them, they were fair game but we also tried to keep the smack talking down)

Unfortunately, while EA could do something about the first... there isn't a single thing they can do about the last two. As long as they aren't being profane, they could say you suck in various manners all day long. And there is nothing anyone can do to make someone a good or great PvPer.

This is from someone who HAS been on both sides of the fence on multiple shards. And those three stick out in my mind as the biggest things that held people back.

 

[UOKaiser]

As someone else mentioned, I'd bet if you asked all the people who don't PvP why they don't, it has nothing to do with losing gold or pots(or other disposable items), it has more to do with:

1. Cheats and exploits - pick your favorite for this. Every PvPer knows what they are as do many of the Tram people.
2. Attitude - nothing like getting ganked by 10 tamers with greater dragons and then being told you suck at PvP *rolleyes*
3. Training - no, I'm not talking actual skill level but real life ability to PvP. I've known people who could wipe up a shard with no skill above 110 and mediocre equipment.

In the old days(all of 2-3 years ago), Pac's most notorious PvP guild was able to get people to try PvP events we hosted due to our attitude. Great fun was had by all. We didn't smack talk them when we crushed them... didn't rez kill them... etc(at these events... at champs spawns, if we didn't rez them, they were fair game but we also tried to keep the smack talking down)

Unfortunately, while EA could do something about the first... there isn't a single thing they can do about the last two. As long as they aren't being profane, they could say you suck in various manners all day long. And there is nothing anyone can do to make someone a good or great PvPer.

This is from someone who HAS been on both sides of the fence on multiple shards. And those three stick out in my mind as the biggest things that held people back.

I agree except for the tamer part as it sucks being gank by 10 necros 10 dexters 10 archers 10 thieves 10 bards 10 miners 10 ninjas 10 naked players or 10 players wearing tutus Hell 10 of anything and then be said you suck. Doesnt really matter who gank you a gank is a gank you die thats all.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

I agree except for the tamer part as it sucks being gank by 10 necros 10 dexters 10 archers 10 thieves 10 bards 10 miners 10 ninjas 10 naked players or 10 players wearing tutus Hell 10 of anything and then be said you suck. Doesnt really matter who gank you a gank is a gank you die thats all.

Ever been ganked by a dozen or so angry miners mind blasting you to death? Quite the humbling experience really...

 

[Chad Sexington]

*hijacks thread*

Bring back the ability to loot player bones in Trammel, kthx

http://looter.4t.com/

 

[Ailish]

Absolutely No. And before I am to be accused of being naive, I say that anyone who believes this would make more people willing to PvP is the naive one. People either enjoy PvP or they dont. If they do, they are willing to lose some pots, regs and bandies. If they dont, absolutely nothing is going to change their minds.

Further, changing the entire way the game works just to cater to and bring back a single playstyle is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Zippididooda]

people who think this way need to go play wow or pokemon or something else. UO needs to get closer to its roots, not further away

my $.02...

 

[Cho hag]

Except for on Siege.. And a lot more people would PvP...

Then, instead of dying on the spot, make it so that we get teleported to a shrine, resurrected with all of how gear and what not... So, get rid of insurance, have it so there isn't any looting rights at all, a lot more people would PvP.... Maybe on a test server??

and u have a darkfall picture in ur signature???wtf...

anyhow would rather we got full loot back instead no insurance...all loot

thx

 

[Duskofdead]

Good God. Talk about a carebear idea...........

LOL, says someone who, I am sure, insures all their PvP gear.

Anyone in UO claiming to still be some hardcore pvp purist is pathetic. The game doesn't even accomodate that playstyle anymore. No more running around in a death robe on horseback with nothing but a kryss and 40 bandages. You need good gear now... and then you insure it.... so when you die you lose NOTHING cept maybe your bandages or some empty potion bottles.

But oh yes... the OP's idea , now THAT would just be TOO FAR after crap like item insurance and animal bonding... lol.

 

[Velvathos]

and u have a darkfall picture in ur signature???wtf...

anyhow would rather we got full loot back instead no insurance...all loot

thx

You don't understand, Darkfall is not a item based game, I can quickly replace all my gear.. Ultima Online has come to a point where people are too dependent on their items, thus, they don't want to lose them, this includes stealables such as bandages, regeants, I think people hate having to go back and re-stock after dying....

 

[Coyt]

You don't understand, Darkfall is not a item based game, I can quickly replace all my gear.. Ultima Online has come to a point where people are too dependent on their items, thus, they don't want to lose them, this includes stealables such as bandages, regeants, I think people hate having to go back and re-stock after dying....

bands regs and potions are easy to replace, those stuff that are hard to replace, insure them or dont use them

 

[Duskofdead]

You don't understand, Darkfall is not a item based game, I can quickly replace all my gear.. Ultima Online has come to a point where people are too dependent on their items, thus, they don't want to lose them, this includes stealables such as bandages, regeants, I think people hate having to go back and re-stock after dying....

Warning in advance, yes my response to this is very cynical.




Even assuming Darkfall is, in the beginning, the huge splash in the water that sinks (or at least precariously rocks) the WOW/EQ paradigm battleship, or at least gathers together and captures all the "small mmo gamers" who prefer the feel of things like UO to WOW, give them 12 months. Wait for hardcore powergrinders who have already maxed out their characters 9 months ago to get bored and start whining, quitting, or moving onto other games.

Once upon a time, UO was not item-based. In fact for a long time it was the only major name MMO to not be item based. Even single player games of its era and after entirely adopted the item-based, gear-farming philosophy. Diablo 2 basically sums up the design of many, if not most, RPG's made since the late 90's-- both single player and multiplayer. Weak to nonexistent story, minimal interactivity or impact upon the game world, voluntary-only pvp, complete gear retrieval, lottery drop rare gear spawn rates, intensive and laborious farming of mobs to collect ultra-rare drops and build a competent character.

But, UO's an 11 year old game. Can't really say that's any excuse in my mind for AoS and the move towards trying to be a watered down inbred half-cousin of a Blizzard game, but let's face reality... when you want to keep subscriptions you wind up tacking crap onto the end of the game for all the bored players who've maxed toons and don't want to level up new ones, and instead want something "hard" and "appropriately superior" for them to work for in terms of rewards and such from where they already are. It's player demand and response in the game market that has "rewarded" this design, and unless Darkfall is managed by incredibly poor businesspeople, expect it to follow suit very quickly and sell out towards the Blizzardesque WOW design.

 

[Velvathos]

bands regs and potions are easy to replace, those stuff that are hard to replace, insure them or dont use them

You don't get sick of having to replace your resources every-time you die? It is pretty much pointless... It adds no risk, it adds frustration, just like when you get ganked, and killed, over and over, and over again, 90% of the time you can't even make it back to your corpse.. I just want them to get rid of frustration in PvP.. I believe this would do it.. If UO wasn't so depended upon by items, it wouldn't be bad at all.. The stuff that is hard to replace, I insure it, if it wasn't hard I wouldn't bother, but I am depended on items in UO, I can't PvP good, or get to the high end PvM content without those items, UO has already walked down the path of most MMO's... Look at PvP in Warhammer, you don't lose anything, there is a small penalty for like 2 minutes, you get right into the PvP, it is constant battle going on 24/7, you get experience, rewards and other things, and PvP being more balanced in Warhammer than most games, you really don't care when you die.. If they got rid of the frustrations in PvP in UO, a lot more people would PvP...

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Player looting in the correct situations (based on player choice) is fine. As stated, resources are easy to replace, and the rest can be blessed or insured... and if that still bothers you, stay in Trammel.

LOL... and I thought Darkfall was supposed to be the anti-Trammel game and here's a DF proponent giving out an idea even Trammel players say goes too far. That's just amusing.

 

[Velvathos]

Warning in advance, yes my response to this is very cynical.




Even assuming Darkfall is, in the beginning, the huge splash in the water that sinks (or at least precariously rocks) the WOW/EQ paradigm battleship, or at least gathers together and captures all the "small mmo gamers" who prefer the feel of things like UO to WOW, give them 12 months. Wait for hardcore powergrinders who have already maxed out their characters 9 months ago to get bored and start whining, quitting, or moving onto other games.

Once upon a time, UO was not item-based. In fact for a long time it was the only major name MMO to not be item based. Even single player games of its era and after entirely adopted the item-based, gear-farming philosophy. Diablo 2 basically sums up the design of many, if not most, RPG's made since the late 90's-- both single player and multiplayer. Weak to nonexistent story, minimal interactivity or impact upon the game world, voluntary-only pvp, complete gear retrieval, lottery drop rare gear spawn rates, intensive and laborious farming of mobs to collect ultra-rare drops and build a competent character.

But, UO's an 11 year old game. Can't really say that's any excuse in my mind for AoS and the move towards trying to be a watered down inbred half-cousin of a Blizzard game, but let's face reality... when you want to keep subscriptions you wind up tacking crap onto the end of the game for all the bored players who've maxed toons and don't want to level up new ones, and instead want something "hard" and "appropriately superior" for them to work for in terms of rewards and such from where they already are. It's player demand and response in the game market that has "rewarded" this design, and unless Darkfall is managed by incredibly poor businesspeople, expect it to follow suit very quickly and sell out towards the Blizzardesque WOW design.

Darkfall could use some work still, on a scale of negative 66 to a positive 66, I would give it a 6..... Couple more months of beta and the game should be ready.. Darkfall has tons, and tons and TONS of content, way more content than WoW and AoC would ever have, and thus, player will never, ever get bored, let's just say that there is 100x more things you can do in Darkfall than you could ever do in UO or WoW.... The problems with these games is to keep people attracted, they need to keep adding new content...

UO once upon a time was not item-based, you said the truth, the game is item based now, and ever since AoS, PvP has been frustrating... There is two things they can do to make UO less frustrating.. They can walk a path similar to Darkfall, or walk the path of WoW/WAR/ etc..... At the moment, UO is a very, very diverse game when it comes to the game mechanics....

There is two types of MMO's, a sandbox and a theme park, UO is currently the latter... Darkfall and WoW are both good games for their styles..... Full player looting would never work in World of Warcraft, everyone would quit, Darkfall is meant for full player looting, it is so easy to get the best equipment fast, and gold rarely matters..

I am saying if UO is gonna walk down to the path of EQ and WoW like they have over the past, they should go ahead and do it completley, if not, then they should follow the path of a Darkfall type of game..

 

[Duskofdead]

My two cents...

What you can lose (unless you're being foolish such as wearing cursed gear or uninsured, valuable gear) in game is totally trivial. In PvP "loot loss" most frequently means 35 bandages and 10 empty potion bottles. Big deal. Less financial loss than what you'd get from 1 escort quest taking 15 seconds.

In PvM, death can mean losing your clothes and perhaps anything you looted thus far--- though most of this is easily recoverable unless you were doing something stupid (like soloing in an area you shouldn't have been, or tacking something too hard with too small of a group.)

Looting-related death is 98% frown-free at this point. What you CAN lose, can be easily replaced. The worst case scenario is a crafter being killed by a player in Fel and losing a significant amount of resources on their person and/or pack animal.

So, pretending looting is still some... vital and integral part of the thrill... c'mon.

 

[Gellor]

Velvathos,
You are failing to grasp what most of the people have said here:
The 5 minutes it takes to replace bandaids and other junk is of NO consequence with regards to people PvPing or not.

The larger issue with getting people to PvP is player attitude, ability, and desire... with a liberal dose of exploits, hacks, and cheats.

Face it, 50% of the people who PvP have poor attitudes at best. That is a BIG turn off for PvPing.

Some people couldn't PvP their way out of a paper bag with the latest gimp template and 500 billion gold suit.

And some just have NO desire to PvP.

EA can't do a frigging thing with player attitude, ability, or desire. And has shown little desire to do anything about the exploits, hacks, and cheats. All of that prevents getting people into PvP beyond the hard core folks.