Seriously?

[Riyana]

I thought that the points for taking an altar would be increased to match that of turning in a sigil. I see that instead, the points for returning sigils has been reduced.

You don't get silver for occupying, and now you only get 20 points for taking an altar or turning in a sigil. You also don't get points for WINNING.

I can't even articulate how annoyed I am.

With the elimination of occupying silver, EVERYTHING should have been dropped in price DRAMATICALLY, and altar and sigil points should have gone UP.

I'm going to have to turn in FIVE HUNDRED sigils for ONE deco item.
FIVE HUNDRED SIGILS. What happened to not wanting to nerf thieves?

Potion kegs are 25 sigils/altars. Traps are 12.5. Mana spikes are 100. Cannons are 150.

Those worthless hooded robes are 250 sigils/altars. ?!?!?!

No one was using the spikes and cannons before... do you really think anyone will now that they take 100-150 altars/sigils to get?!

So not only is it going to take FOREVER to get the nice deco rewards, it takes prohibitively long to even get the extra tools that we are supposed to use to play VvV in the first place.

I don't get it. I just don't get it. A gentle tweak was needed. The proper tool was a small wrench, not a nuclear bomb.

So thanks for ruining VvV, devs. I was very concerned about a thief nerf, but clearly I was thinking too small. You nerfed THE ENTIRE THING FOR EVERYONE instead, with a slight extra kick to thieves with the anti-hiding nonsense. Jeez.

I tried to be nice. I tried to be tactful. I give up. Just as with the governor system, good suggestions from reasonable and honest players get lost under the deluge of whiny crap and ignored. I'm so disappointed. This was the most fun I've had with my thief in years. ACTUAL FUN, not just dungeon collecting. Now it's another stupid, brutal grind.

It was fun while it lasted. Guess I'll go steal some some more dungeon junk. After I fight my way past the Blackthorn dungeon trash with the stealth thief that can't walk past a hellhound anymore. Thanks a lot.

 

[Podolak]

Prior to last nights update you received 20 silver points for alters and 40 for sigils. When they talked about equalizing sigils and alters I never imagined they would reduce the points, but they did. Post update its 20 silver points for alters and 20 silver points for sigils. Like Riyana said this is fairly insane. I agree that getting points for hanging out in town and not doing anything was a bad idea. The no points for simply occupying a city seems like a good fix. However, now that it is a lot more time consuming to get silver points I think the equalization of alters and sigils should have resulted in both of them being raised, to say 50.

Has this had a negative impact on VvV? Time will tell as other content was released at the same time but I did four cities un-opposed on Atlantic today, no one showed up not even other thieves....

@Kyronix you listened to some PvPers who didn't want to adjust their playstyle to deal with thieves (and trust me many did adjust and were successful) but perhaps you can take into consideration some of us thieves who are now debating if VvV is worthwhile to do anymore.

 

[cazador]

Now the 8 thieves left in UO are quitting! Great!! Way to ruin the best thing going!
/endsarcasm

Maybe you should have polled players instead of just changing the points..the points were fine as they were, the ease of it was an issue, so instead of coding it so you couldn't stealth while holding a sigil you went easy button and just dropped points..confusing at best! Granted I have no idea gives what points or even care..I spend my time there looking to kill others. Which you should get points for, not sure if you do..


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[Podolak]

Granted I have no idea gives what points or even care..I spend my time there looking to kill others. Which you should get points for, not sure if you do..

I haven't had a chance to test this since today's update but...prior to today you got *drum roll* one point per kill.

 

[cazador]

I haven't had a chance to test this since today's update but...prior to today you got *drum roll* one point per kill.

I can almost afford a trap in a year finding that many people


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[Podolak]

I just tested, it is in fact 1 point per kill.

 

[Riyana]

Now the 8 thieves left in UO are quitting! Great!! Way to ruin the best thing going!
/endsarcasm

Maybe you should have polled players instead of just changing the points..the points were fine as they were, the ease of it was an issue, so instead of coding it so you couldn't stealth while holding a sigil you went easy button and just dropped points..confusing at best! Granted I have no idea gives what points or even care..I spend my time there looking to kill others. Which you should get points for, not sure if you do..


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You want people to kill. You had them. VvV was bringing Trammies to Fel to PvP and we were HAVING FUN. That should be what you want. God knows none of the stupid carrots dangled over the years have brought you the targets you so crave.

I'll be your target. But I want something more out of it than lost insurance money and idiotic smack talk.

Now... we can just keep grinding in Trammel and let you guys keep eating each other. (Which you'll be doing in champ spawns since that's where the reasonably attainable rewards are.)

I'll be honest. I came for the deco at first, but I had fun too. I enjoyed the challenge of evading some of the combat PvPers--a couple guys on Chesapeake were pretty decent at giving thieves a hard time. I would have liked to try some of the traps and the cannons, but they just cost too damn much. (As does the mana spike!)

It' s just not worth my time though. Five hundred sigils for one banner. Ha! And to fight back with a weak, lackluster cannon that won't even slow you down before you drop me, it's 150 sigils? Hell no.

And if you can't stealth with the sigil, then you shouldn't be able to cast or attack while on an altar. You fight to defend the altar. I stealth to defend the sigil.

You have plenty of options for dealing with stealthers. All the calls to nerf stealthing are ridiculous. A sigil thief with stealth already has detect hidden, stealing, hiding, stealth, and probably ninjitsu. A PvP thief should also probably have snooping. We CAN'T fight straight on. Use some strategy instead of demanding that thieves be sitting ducks for you. The tools exist, and I don't just mean the overpriced stuff from the silver trader.

Combat isn't the only kind of PvP.

And OF COURSE killing enemies should be more than 1 point.

 

[Podolak]

On my shard some of my guild mates who normally play in trammel only, ventured into VvV and were having a blast. It was really working well for everyone involved. The PvPers got to up their kill count (which they constantly advertised in GC) and the trammel players got to laugh and have a taste of running around and trying to evade or coordinate an attack. The system definitely needed tweaks, but taking an axe to it may have been a bit brutal. I know there where shards where every city had permanently hidden characters in every town at all times to collect points. This was a big issue and needed to be addressed. I also thought it would be fair to equalize sigils and alters. However, doing towns just became a major grind which is going to lure less targets into the battle zones for the PvPers. When the PvPers have less targets they will go back to Yew gate where their normal enemies reside. I've already been through the towns on my home shard when they became active battle zones and they were desolate. Again this could partly have to do with the Doom event grind.

 

[Kyronix]

Prior to last nights update you received 20 silver points for alters and 40 for sigils. When they talked about equalizing sigils and alters I never imagined they would reduce the points, but they did. Post update its 20 silver points for alters and 20 silver points for sigils. Like Riyana said this is fairly insane. I agree that getting points for hanging out in town and not doing anything was a bad idea. The no points for simply occupying a city seems like a good fix. However, now that it is a lot more time consuming to get silver points I think the equalization of alters and sigils should have resulted in both of them being raised, to say 50.

Has this had a negative impact on VvV? Time will tell as other content was released at the same time but I did four cities un-opposed on Atlantic today, no one showed up not even other thieves....

@Kyronix you listened to some PvPers who didn't want to adjust their playstyle to deal with thieves (and trust me many did adjust and were successful) but perhaps you can take into consideration some of us thieves who are now debating if VvV is worthwhile to do anymore.

We listened to the feedback that VvV, that at its core is intended to promote PvP combat, was putting too much emphasis on a first order optimal strategy that did not include combat. As a result, occupation points, the most prolific way to get match points, were not serving their intended purpose of forcing combat encounters because there were hidden players in a remote part of the city that were not going to have an interest in forcing those encounters, and thus that entire mechanic would be stalemated, this coupled with sigils having the highest point value put an emphasis on stealth and hiding, which is imbalanced against the core concept of VvV - combat. It is also important to note that there are more opportunities for stealing sigils in a timed match than claiming an altar. We will continue to monitor feedback, and make adjustments as necessary. Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Podolak]

We listened to the feedback that VvV, that at its core is intended to promote PvP combat, was putting too much emphasis on a first order optimal strategy that did not include combat. As a result, occupation points, the most prolific way to get match points, were not serving their intended purpose of forcing combat encounters because there were hidden players in a remote part of the city that were not going to have an interest in forcing those encounters, and thus that entire mechanic would be stalemated, this coupled with sigils having the highest point value put an emphasis on stealth and hiding, which is imbalanced against the core concept of VvV - combat. It is also important to note that there are more opportunities for stealing sigils in a timed match than claiming an altar. We will continue to monitor feedback, and make adjustments as necessary. Thanks for your feedback!

I couldn't agree more, hidden players in the remote parts of the city was a big pita and I am glad that has been addressed.

Thank you for the clarification, that a thief isn't in line with the core concept of VvV, combat is. I was under the false impression that VvV was about PvP in general not just combat PvP. That makes a lot of things easier to understand, I appreciate you pointing that out as I had missed it previously.

Also, thank you for taking the time to respond to pseudo rant. It is always good to receive feedback on our um...feedback!

 

[cazador]

You want people to kill. You had them. VvV was bringing Trammies to Fel to PvP and we were HAVING FUN. That should be what you want. God knows none of the stupid carrots dangled over the years have brought you the targets you so crave.

I'll be your target. But I want something more out of it than lost insurance money and idiotic smack talk.

Now... we can just keep grinding in Trammel and let you guys keep eating each other. (Which you'll be doing in champ spawns since that's where the reasonably attainable rewards are.)

I'll be honest. I came for the deco at first, but I had fun too. I enjoyed the challenge of evading some of the combat PvPers--a couple guys on Chesapeake were pretty decent at giving thieves a hard time. I would have liked to try some of the traps and the cannons, but they just cost too damn much. (As does the mana spike!)

It' s just not worth my time though. Five hundred sigils for one banner. Ha! And to fight back with a weak, lackluster cannon that won't even slow you down before you drop me, it's 150 sigils? Hell no.

And if you can't stealth with the sigil, then you shouldn't be able to cast or attack while on an altar. You fight to defend the altar. I stealth to defend the sigil.

You have plenty of options for dealing with stealthers. All the calls to nerf stealthing are ridiculous. A sigil thief with stealth already has detect hidden, stealing, hiding, stealth, and probably ninjitsu. A PvP thief should also probably have snooping. We CAN'T fight straight on. Use some strategy instead of demanding that thieves be sitting ducks for you. The tools exist, and I don't just mean the overpriced stuff from the silver trader.

Combat isn't the only kind of PvP.

And OF COURSE killing enemies should be more than 1 point.

Idk I beg to differ I have mage DP Eval stealing detect and kill quite a bit of people as a Pvp thief..I just think it's a want to be able to sneak around rather than actually fight which is what I thought the point was..some risk for reward. I play on my pvp
Stealther and rarely die..imagine if on my thief I stealthed around..if never ever be seen minus the 8 second timer for stealing sigs. The system works well on a super populated server, unfortunately that's 1-2 servers..


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[Podolak]

It is also important to note that there are more opportunities for stealing sigils in a timed match than claiming an altar.

This may also be an issue. They will continue to argue thieves are OP because of the disparity. Honestly I thought the point was to equalize alters and sigils (not counting fixing the hidden characters who don't actually participate at all) but really it just seems like a nerf to thieves and then alters are left at status quo. I can still claim an alter hidden, also.

 

[Kyronix]

I can still claim an alter hidden, also.

Yes, you can...but all you have to do to stop someone who is hiding from doing so is to step onto the altar. A well placed conflagration potion also helps

 

[Podolak]

Yes, you can...but all you have to do to stop someone who is hiding from doing so is to step onto the altar. A well placed conflagration potion also helps

I prefer using poison fields. Here is some of my handy work:

I may be supporting my fellow thieves in this thread but I do actually engage in combat pvp as well.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

The issue is really the amount of silver earned... The changes to thieves and occupation are great.

The reduction/elimination of silver a person can earn is to low... from about 500 per contest to about 20-60. To compensate prices have to be reduced drastically or the amount per sigil or Altar has to be increased. I've been testing on origin for the last few days and still have come to the same conclusion that Altars and Sigils need have a higher silver value. (I did say this would be an issue once it hit world wide).

Also the point of a Siege should be to win the battle - not just steal sigils or pvp. As a team effort you should have to do all these things plus as well as interfere with the opposition. Characters that are spending time detecting and tracking down enemies for others to kill are not being rewarded as part of the winning team. Winning a battle should give the team a silver bonus which is split among the participants. 100 silver plus 10% for each participant....

Solo characters earns 100 silver, 2 characters earn 55 silver, 3 earn 40 silver etc.

If kills are really worth 1 silver that isn't good... Maybe silver for killing should be based on the skill of the player you kill.

(Kills - deaths) x 2 = Silver

If the player killed has a score of 0 or negative you earn 1 silver for their death... That way higher skilled targets earn you more silver and less skilled fighters give you less. Having people with 0 kills or less giving only 1 silver should keep people from killing their own alts to gain silver to a minimum.

-Lore's Player

 

[Glenny glenn]

First of all riyana id like to say thank you for running the auction on chessy all this time, I appreciate you as a person and what you have done for the community. But that sigil stuff was driving me nuts, to the point I was just plain ignoring thieves cause I could never track them down. I disagree with how heavy handed the nerf was for sure but I want combat pvp as you call it, its the kind of pvp that is fun for both parties if they are willingly engaging in it.

Its pretty one sided when someone is trying to track down a thief, I mean the thief is laughing their booty off watching the person trying to catch them but its reallllly frustrating trying to actually catch someone who wants to avoid the fight at all costs. Non consensual pvp is at the core of fel and with an activity such as VvV, if no where else, combat pvp should be primary. Your welcome to stalk around anywhere else in fel as a stealther and not receive repercussions for it. Hell play an stealth archer those are fun too, that would actually bring some combat to the table! I guess what im getting at is I don't like how stealing in VvV combined with stealth is, the old system it just made it where the thieves were the only ones to win cities.

Now as a suggestion to lighten this nerf why not just keep the points the same and allow sigil runners to keep stealth for only allowing sigils to be turned in at active alters? That would give back the non combat pvp that people desire along with giving the combat pvpers a chance to actually win a city once in a while


Edit: Another interesting idea would be to change the alters from a capture scenario to an alter is active x amount of time where standing on the alter just gives your guild points. Then when the alter is no longer active another one takes its place so they fight moves and sigils are able be turned in throughout the fight

 

[Smoot]

We listened to the feedback that VvV, that at its core is intended to promote PvP combat, was putting too much emphasis on a first order optimal strategy that did not include combat. As a result, occupation points, the most prolific way to get match points, were not serving their intended purpose of forcing combat encounters because there were hidden players in a remote part of the city that were not going to have an interest in forcing those encounters, and thus that entire mechanic would be stalemated, this coupled with sigils having the highest point value put an emphasis on stealth and hiding, which is imbalanced against the core concept of VvV - combat. It is also important to note that there are more opportunities for stealing sigils in a timed match than claiming an altar. We will continue to monitor feedback, and make adjustments as necessary. Thanks for your feedback!

i would suggest simply making stealthed / hidden players not be eligible for points.

It would need more tweaking, but something like this:
20 points for claiming an alter
points for occupying (if not stealthed / hidden)
40 points for returning a sigil
some amount of points for winning
points for kills

the problem was characters being stealthed and impossible to detect

 

[Riyana]

We listened to the feedback that VvV, that at its core is intended to promote PvP combat, was putting too much emphasis on a first order optimal strategy that did not include combat. As a result, occupation points, the most prolific way to get match points, were not serving their intended purpose of forcing combat encounters because there were hidden players in a remote part of the city that were not going to have an interest in forcing those encounters, and thus that entire mechanic would be stalemated, this coupled with sigils having the highest point value put an emphasis on stealth and hiding, which is imbalanced against the core concept of VvV - combat. It is also important to note that there are more opportunities for stealing sigils in a timed match than claiming an altar. We will continue to monitor feedback, and make adjustments as necessary. Thanks for your feedback!

I can accept the hiding thing--and I am glad you didn't go the route of making it so you couldn't stealth with the sigil. My main problem is that takes WAY TOO MANY "wins"--either sigil returns or altar captures--to get rewards and VvV tools. The silver points are so hopelessly out of whack now it's not worth doing for those of us interested in the deco rewards, and the traps and such don't do enough to be worth their silver cost either.

As I said, I would have liked to play with the traps and cannons and such, but they were just too high even with with occupation silver. A lot of the time it was just me and one or two other people in a city.

Five hundred sigils and/or altars for a deco piece, Kyronix. Five hundred.

That's a grind. A terrible grind.

 

[Riyana]

First of all riyana id like to say thank you for running the auction on chessy all this time, I appreciate you as a person and what you have done for the community. But that sigil stuff was driving me nuts, to the point I was just plain ignoring thieves cause I could never track them down. I disagree with how heavy handed the nerf was for sure but I want combat pvp as you call it, its the kind of pvp that is fun for both parties if they are willingly engaging in it.

Its pretty one sided when someone is trying to track down a thief, I mean the thief is laughing their booty off watching the person trying to catch them but its reallllly frustrating trying to actually catch someone who wants to avoid the fight at all costs. Non consensual pvp is at the core of fel and with an activity such as VvV, if no where else, combat pvp should be primary. Your welcome to stalk around anywhere else in fel as a stealther and not receive repercussions for it. Hell play an stealth archer those are fun too, that would actually bring some combat to the table! I guess what im getting at is I don't like how stealing in VvV combined with stealth is, the old system it just made it where the thieves were the only ones to win cities.

Now as a suggestion to lighten this nerf why not just keep the points the same and allow sigil runners to keep stealth for only allowing sigils to be turned in at active alters? That would give back the non combat pvp that people desire along with giving the combat pvpers a chance to actually win a city once in a while


Edit: Another interesting idea would be to change the alters from a capture scenario to an alter is active x amount of time where standing on the alter just gives your guild points. Then when the alter is no longer active another one takes its place so they fight moves and sigils are able be turned in throughout the fight

I actually agree that thieves had too much of an advantage--but annihilating silver acquisition was the wrong way to address it, and nerfing stealth is also the wrong way to address it.

The right way to address is to give combat characters more reasonable options to find/reveal thieves without completely crippling what is many thieves' best defense. As has already been pointed out in this thread, you can use conflagration potions and magic fields (poison being particularly effective) to reveal thieves.

There are also supernova potions and mana spikes from the silver trader. These, like all the other fighting tools, need to be drastically dropped in price to make them more feasible for use. A twenty minute battle with three mana spikes popped would be great... but that is 3000 silver, or 150 altars/sigils. WAY too much!

The altars should renew as often as the sigils too.

Keep in mind that thieves had to add 100 detect hidden to be able to play VvV. Maybe combat toons should add 100 tracking or detect hidden!

I'm all for some middle ground here, but it sounds like a lot of people just want thieves handed to them on a silver platter. Eliminating stealthing with the sigil will mean that thieves will be met at the priests by much stronger combat-oriented characters every time. We'll be sitting ducks. Thieves SHOULD be slippery and hard to catch... they are thieves...

 

[Tinky Feetz]

I feel the biggest issue, is the lack of skill many of the PvPers have in this new system. Many of them on my shard can't figure or want to try to be innovative on catching a thief. Than there are those that can, are, and do catch a thief.
I'm a sigil stealing thief, and to those of you who utilize all different skills to thwart me and catch me, props to you. You make it fun and enjoyable. It's not easy being the thief as many of you think. I have to find it, detect it, wait 8 seconds to steal it, then run back to the priests and fight with the fielders to return it. Which is what makes it fun for me and my friends. You have so much as your disposal to find and catch us. You just need to be willing to use and learn it, which you won't.

 

[Captn Norrington]

It seems like most pvp'ers nowadays give up if they can't win in less than 5 seconds....there are some exceptions of course, but generally speaking pvp'ers have gotten lazy.

 

[bigjim]

I agree with Riyana and Tinky Feetz comments and ideas and totally with Captn Norrington.

I thought the original system for VvV was very fun and we actually got some what PvP'ers call Trammies to join in our fun. We would have our two thieves and our 3 or 4 stealthing archers as protection or distractions. This is using battle tactics. We didn't just hide around watching so called pvper's waiting for fights. There was pvper's that actually made the effort to stop us from taking altars and sigils which forced battles. The majority(90%) of the time we were doing the VvV we did not see any pvper's to even fight. To answer to the people complaining about not being able to find people hidden in the area I have to laugh at them. When we were doing the VvV there were a few that would hide in the town and we would know to go looking for them. This is called using human tracking skill to find the hidden. Found them and killed them. They would run to get resurrected and this is one thing I had a problem with this scenario."We would have someone keep them dead(They complained to us that this was harrassment) I told them as long as they were alive we did not get our points. (If our characters die I think they should be teleported out of the play area to a healer and then can re-enter after stat loss is over or they have taken a potion to restore stat loss.) So if you want to stop someone from doing something you use your mind that God gave you and think of what you have available to you and use it to your advantage and don't go crying to mama or daddy to solve your problems. Learn to solve situations yourself.

I see some good pvper's doing what is needed to change the battle for there better, but others complaining about another person's template of their choice. Sounds like a excuse to me. I see some change characters depending on who they are battling or type of battle going on and I see this as adjusting to the situation instead of whining about how my character can't win. I asked some people, I think are pvper's, what they really wanted in a pvp fight. A lot of there comments led to fighting 1 vs 1 and someone with the same template. Face to face fights. The complaints of some were the template bashing because they don't like fighting that way. Never knew there was rules to battles and wars. Just Battle Tactics and the ability to adjust to those Tactics.
Conclusion is: I found the original VvV was not perfect but very good. I didn't think it was fair that the altars weren't worth more because you had to fight for them occassionally (I think the altars should be worth 50 points and sigils worth 40 points and spawn more often once won or taken) is the main thing I would have changed.
The way it is now I haven't seen anyone here at VvV in the last 3 times it has ran so I got bored running around for a measly 100 points taking altars and I have to do this for 33 hours to get myself a banner these few people complaining can sit in VvV by themselves complaining to each other like they always do.

The biggest thing I have a problem with is the Dev's doing this knee jerk reaction to 1 percent of the people playing in this game. The few that just want to fight people with the same templates and don't think they have to adjust there tactics to fight a battle. These people complaining have gotten lazy and need to read up on battle tactics.

 

[Kyronix]

The issue is really the amount of silver earned... The changes to thieves and occupation are great.

The reduction/elimination of silver a person can earn is to low... from about 500 per contest to about 20-60. To compensate prices have to be reduced drastically or the amount per sigil or Altar has to be increased. I've been testing on origin for the last few days and still have come to the same conclusion that Altars and Sigils need have a higher silver value. (I did say this would be an issue once it hit world wide).

Also the point of a Siege should be to win the battle - not just steal sigils or pvp. As a team effort you should have to do all these things plus as well as interfere with the opposition. Characters that are spending time detecting and tracking down enemies for others to kill are not being rewarded as part of the winning team. Winning a battle should give the team a silver bonus which is split among the participants. 100 silver plus 10% for each participant....

Solo characters earns 100 silver, 2 characters earn 55 silver, 3 earn 40 silver etc.

If kills are really worth 1 silver that isn't good... Maybe silver for killing should be based on the skill of the player you kill.

(Kills - deaths) x 2 = Silver

If the player killed has a score of 0 or negative you earn 1 silver for their death... That way higher skilled targets earn you more silver and less skilled fighters give you less. Having people with 0 kills or less giving only 1 silver should keep people from killing their own alts to gain silver to a minimum.

-Lore's Player

Admittedly, we did misstep in the most recent change to how match points were awarded thusly effecting how silver points were awarded. Prior to removing the gain of silver points for occupation, an uncontested occupation would net approximately 400 silver points, assuming no other methods of match points were awarded ala sigils, altars, or kills. Now that occupation points only count towards winning the match, we did not redistribute the expected silver gained from occupation into the other VvV scoring opportunities. We ran through a variety of tweaks to these scoring dials today and hope to balance this out soon as we can. Thanks again for the feedback!

 

[Podolak]

Admittedly, we did misstep in the most recent change to how match points were awarded thusly effecting how silver points were awarded. Prior to removing the gain of silver points for occupation, an uncontested occupation would net approximately 400 silver points, assuming no other methods of match points were awarded ala sigils, altars, or kills. Now that occupation points only count towards winning the match, we did not redistribute the expected silver gained from occupation into the other VvV scoring opportunities. We ran through a variety of tweaks to these scoring dials today and hope to balance this out soon as we can. Thanks again for the feedback!

You read our feedback, you responded to it, you took our opinions into consideration and are making changes accordingly. I am not sure I can ask much more than that of our dev team. I probably will ask more just because I really want our VvV mounts rezzable without veterinary but that is another topic!

Thank you for listening.

 

[Viquire]

Nice thread! Last time I looked this was still a factions forum. Glad to see we got that changed.

 

[Glenny glenn]

I agree with Riyana and Tinky Feetz comments and ideas and totally with Captn Norrington.

I thought the original system for VvV was very fun and we actually got some what PvP'ers call Trammies to join in our fun. We would have our two thieves and our 3 or 4 stealthing archers as protection or distractions. This is using battle tactics. We didn't just hide around watching so called pvper's waiting for fights. There was pvper's that actually made the effort to stop us from taking altars and sigils which forced battles. The majority(90%) of the time we were doing the VvV we did not see any pvper's to even fight. To answer to the people complaining about not being able to find people hidden in the area I have to laugh at them. When we were doing the VvV there were a few that would hide in the town and we would know to go looking for them. This is called using human tracking skill to find the hidden. Found them and killed them. They would run to get resurrected and this is one thing I had a problem with this scenario."We would have someone keep them dead(They complained to us that this was harrassment) I told them as long as they were alive we did not get our points. (If our characters die I think they should be teleported out of the play area to a healer and then can re-enter after stat loss is over or they have taken a potion to restore stat loss.) So if you want to stop someone from doing something you use your mind that God gave you and think of what you have available to you and use it to your advantage and don't go crying to mama or daddy to solve your problems. Learn to solve situations yourself.

I see some good pvper's doing what is needed to change the battle for there better, but others complaining about another person's template of their choice. Sounds like a excuse to me. I see some change characters depending on who they are battling or type of battle going on and I see this as adjusting to the situation instead of whining about how my character can't win. I asked some people, I think are pvper's, what they really wanted in a pvp fight. A lot of there comments led to fighting 1 vs 1 and someone with the same template. Face to face fights. The complaints of some were the template bashing because they don't like fighting that way. Never knew there was rules to battles and wars. Just Battle Tactics and the ability to adjust to those Tactics.
Conclusion is: I found the original VvV was not perfect but very good. I didn't think it was fair that the altars weren't worth more because you had to fight for them occassionally (I think the altars should be worth 50 points and sigils worth 40 points and spawn more often once won or taken) is the main thing I would have changed.
The way it is now I haven't seen anyone here at VvV in the last 3 times it has ran so I got bored running around for a measly 100 points taking altars and I have to do this for 33 hours to get myself a banner these few people complaining can sit in VvV by themselves complaining to each other like they always do.

The biggest thing I have a problem with is the Dev's doing this knee jerk reaction to 1 percent of the people playing in this game. The few that just want to fight people with the same templates and don't think they have to adjust there tactics to fight a battle. These people complaining have gotten lazy and need to read up on battle tactics.

Its not that no one was willing to put tracking and detect hidden in their builds, it was that even though you had these skills and revealed the person, they always run still avoiding confrontation at all costs. The reward for finding the stealther should be some kind of confrontation not just run off screen drop a smoke bomb while the person chasing them gets 1 explosion off max. I understand this for stealthing chars because its part of their build but I don't really want to chase you all around trinsic constantly revealing you for 20 minutes. It makes for really dull pvp.

Also what happens if someone who actually has a pvp build shows for VvV? Missing 2 critical pvp skills because you want to chase down the stealthers is going to get you faceplanted by them quickly. For me id have to give up wrestle and parry to pick them up and that would be leaving me defenseless against dexers

 

[Tinky Feetz]

Its not that no one was willing to put tracking and detect hidden in their builds, it was that even though you had these skills and revealed the person, they always run still avoiding confrontation at all costs. The reward for finding the stealther should be some kind of confrontation not just run off screen drop a smoke bomb while the person chasing them gets 1 explosion off max. I understand this for stealthing chars because its part of their build but I don't really want to chase you all around trinsic constantly revealing you for 20 minutes. It makes for really dull pvp.

I completely understand what you're saying here. I too find it really dull when I'm stealing sigils and the other person in the city doesn't even try to look for me and just takes altars. just as you don't want to add detect hidden because you'll lose a valuable skill, most of us true thieves don't have room for a weapon skill and if we do we would have to add tactics or eval to make it worthy.
Some of us (not all) have for VvV:

• Stealing 100 +20 leggings
• Stealth 100 +20 leggings
• Hiding 100
• Detect Hidden 100
• Ninjitsu 80-100 with jewelry
• Resist Spells 120
• Snooping 100, I steal sigils from you, after you steal them.

When I'm in a city alone and someone else comes in I get excited, "Is he going to steal sigils too?","Is he going to try to stop me, Is he a fielder?" If you are a challenge than I'll call guildies for help and than you'll call for help and we have fun.

You might be thinking that if I took off Ninjitsu and Snooping and threw on Magery and Eval that would be great or got rid of Stealth, Hiding, and Snooping then add Achery, Tactics, and Fencing that could be great too.
Just as you don't want to change you template, why should I have too?

The altars should be worth the same as sigils if not more. I enjoy a challenge, but don't criticize my template and play-style. It's what I enjoy. I don't bash yours.

I stopped playing shortly after Blackthorns Revenge and came back 1 yr ago. Made the same character "true thief" as I played then. Imagine my dismay when I went to steal from another player and learned at that moment what insurance was.
Found out that I was destined for Exodus keys and dungeon arties, until VvV happened...now it's back to exodus keys and dungeon arties. Perhaps, I'll become a trammy and someone can use my thieving in some player event.

 

[Riyana]

Its not that no one was willing to put tracking and detect hidden in their builds, it was that even though you had these skills and revealed the person, they always run still avoiding confrontation at all costs. The reward for finding the stealther should be some kind of confrontation not just run off screen drop a smoke bomb while the person chasing them gets 1 explosion off max. I understand this for stealthing chars because its part of their build but I don't really want to chase you all around trinsic constantly revealing you for 20 minutes. It makes for really dull pvp.

Also what happens if someone who actually has a pvp build shows for VvV? Missing 2 critical pvp skills because you want to chase down the stealthers is going to get you faceplanted by them quickly. For me id have to give up wrestle and parry to pick them up and that would be leaving me defenseless against dexers

What you are saying here is that you don't want to have to change your template, but thieves need to change their whole playstyle AND their templates. I hope you see the contradiction here.

A stealthing sigil thief already MUST have stealing, detect, hiding, and stealth. Even fully loaded with skill items (which reduces our ability to have other, more combat-oriented mods), that's a good 300 skill points gone. Since you brought up smoke bombs, that's 50 points of ninjitsu required as well.

You don't want to go toe to toe with a dexxer without wrestle and parry, but you expect a thief, who is already at least 350 points behind you for combat skills, to go toe to toe with you?

Figure out the tactics for catching a thief (and it's really not that hard, especially since you know where they are going once you get the message that the sigil has been stolen) and come get us!

Straight combat is not the only kind of PvP. Use some strategy!

 

[Glenny glenn]

What you are saying here is that you don't want to have to change your template, but thieves need to change their whole playstyle AND their templates. I hope you see the contradiction here.

A stealthing sigil thief already MUST have stealing, detect, hiding, and stealth. Even fully loaded with skill items (which reduces our ability to have other, more combat-oriented mods), that's a good 300 skill points gone. Since you brought up smoke bombs, that's 50 points of ninjitsu required as well.

You don't want to go toe to toe with a dexxer without wrestle and parry, but you expect a thief, who is already at least 350 points behind you for combat skills, to go toe to toe with you?

Figure out the tactics for catching a thief (and it's really not that hard, especially since you know where they are going once you get the message that the sigil has been stolen) and come get us!

Straight combat is not the only kind of PvP. Use some strategy!

What I was trying to say in essence was I don't enjoy chasing thieves down, its not the type of pvp I enjoy. And im not saying the thief should try to combat me its part of their build for avoidance, if it was implied that way that wasn't my intent.

I know that thieves have been disenfranchised all these years, but I think thievery pvp should revolve around an opponent instead of mindlessly turning in sigils for points (that's gotta be boring for the thief too right?). When I was playing on a certain private server I was maining a thief, I enjoyed the slip in get the good loot off my target and slip out. But its the interaction between me and another player, which I would define as pvp, that I valued. Knowing that my mark lost something valuable because they weren't paying attention was what kept me playing my thief.

In the end this is broadswords fault for neutering what thieves used to be able to do in ultima online by changing the fundamental structure of the game. Otherwise we wouldn't have thieves fighting over the little attention they get these days.

Maybe another way to look at this topic is "should thievery be rewarded more than people killing an opponent in VvV?"

 

[cazador]

I actually agree that thieves had too much of an advantage--but annihilating silver acquisition was the wrong way to address it, and nerfing stealth is also the wrong way to address it.

The right way to address is to give combat characters more reasonable options to find/reveal thieves without completely crippling what is many thieves' best defense. As has already been pointed out in this thread, you can use conflagration potions and magic fields (poison being particularly effective) to reveal thieves.

There are also supernova potions and mana spikes from the silver trader. These, like all the other fighting tools, need to be drastically dropped in price to make them more feasible for use. A twenty minute battle with three mana spikes popped would be great... but that is 3000 silver, or 150 altars/sigils. WAY too much!

The altars should renew as often as the sigils too.

Keep in mind that thieves had to add 100 detect hidden to be able to play VvV. Maybe combat toons should add 100 tracking or detect hidden!

I'm all for some middle ground here, but it sounds like a lot of people just want thieves handed to them on a silver platter. Eliminating stealthing with the sigil will mean that thieves will be met at the priests by much stronger combat-oriented characters every time. We'll be sitting ducks. Thieves SHOULD be slippery and hard to catch... they are thieves...

Idk my thief has
Detect Hidden
Evaluating Intelligence
Magery
Poisoning
Stealing
Wrestling
Meditation
Total:
100
120
100
80
100
120
100
720

Seems to work just fine on the killing stealing spectrum..I just think most would rather play the safe stealth ninja thief so they don't lose the 10k insurance and or free VvV points


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Riyana]

Admittedly, we did misstep in the most recent change to how match points were awarded thusly effecting how silver points were awarded. Prior to removing the gain of silver points for occupation, an uncontested occupation would net approximately 400 silver points, assuming no other methods of match points were awarded ala sigils, altars, or kills. Now that occupation points only count towards winning the match, we did not redistribute the expected silver gained from occupation into the other VvV scoring opportunities. We ran through a variety of tweaks to these scoring dials today and hope to balance this out soon as we can. Thanks again for the feedback!

Okay, I can see you are listening and taking us seriously on this matter, and for my initial angry rant I apologize. Thank you.

 

[Robin_of_Moxy]

We listened to the feedback that VvV, that at its core is intended to promote PvP combat, was putting too much emphasis on a first order optimal strategy that did not include combat. As a result, occupation points, the most prolific way to get match points, were not serving their intended purpose of forcing combat encounters because there were hidden players in a remote part of the city that were not going to have an interest in forcing those encounters, and thus that entire mechanic would be stalemated, this coupled with sigils having the highest point value put an emphasis on stealth and hiding, which is imbalanced against the core concept of VvV - combat. It is also important to note that there are more opportunities for stealing sigils in a timed match than claiming an altar. We will continue to monitor feedback, and make adjustments as necessary. Thanks for your feedback!

I am sorry Kyronix I thought the core idea was to revive PvP? You had it! You had Tramlites coming to Fel for PvP actions. They are now all gone.

 

[Robin_of_Moxy]

I couldn't agree more, hidden players in the remote parts of the city was a big pita and I am glad that has been addressed.

Thank you for the clarification, that a thief isn't in line with the core concept of VvV, combat is. I was under the false impression that VvV was about PvP in general not just combat PvP. That makes a lot of things easier to understand, I appreciate you pointing that out as I had missed it previously.

Also, thank you for taking the time to respond to pseudo rant. It is always good to receive feedback on our um...feedback!

Without new blood into pvp VvV will go the way of Factions. We had it! Granted many were thieves but, many of the pvpers developed great tatics for taking care of them. Honestly I think the role that thieves played was awesome. Again it brought the Trammies to Fel to play with us. I built a thief hunter to combat them and was getting good at it. The core concept of VvV should be to get more players to join in the activities shouldn't it be?

 

[Robin_of_Moxy]

Idk I beg to differ I have mage DP Eval stealing detect and kill quite a bit of people as a Pvp thief..I just think it's a want to be able to sneak around rather than actually fight which is what I thought the point was..some risk for reward. I play on my pvp
Stealther and rarely die..imagine if on my thief I stealthed around..if never ever be seen minus the 8 second timer for stealing sigs. The system works well on a super populated server, unfortunately that's 1-2 servers..


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The system was working well on Pac which is far from populated. The fact that Stealthers could have a decent chance of competing and surviving is what was bringing in the trammies. How fun is it when no one is playing?

 

[Robin_of_Moxy]

Now as a suggestion to lighten this nerf why not just keep the points the same and allow sigil runners to keep stealth for only allowing sigils to be turned in at active alters? That would give back the non combat pvp that people desire along with giving the combat pvpers a chance to actually win a city once in a while


Edit: Another interesting idea would be to change the alters from a capture scenario to an alter is active x amount of time where standing on the alter just gives your guild points. Then when the alter is no longer active another one takes its place so they fight moves and sigils are able be turned in throughout the fight

Great Ideas!

 

[Robin_of_Moxy]

Admittedly, we did misstep in the most recent change to how match points were awarded thusly effecting how silver points were awarded. Prior to removing the gain of silver points for occupation, an uncontested occupation would net approximately 400 silver points, assuming no other methods of match points were awarded ala sigils, altars, or kills. Now that occupation points only count towards winning the match, we did not redistribute the expected silver gained from occupation into the other VvV scoring opportunities. We ran through a variety of tweaks to these scoring dials today and hope to balance this out soon as we can. Thanks again for the feedback!

Kyronix when you unnerf your mistake I hope you will consider what is most important. In my opinion that is to bring new blood into the pvp arena. We actually had trammies that would never thought of going to Fel joining in the fun. In my guild alot we had several players making both thieves and *new* pvp chars. You guys had it right I think! No that is all gone. If you don't consider this in the new changes I fear all the new blood we were seeing will not return. Please please PLEASE consider what is the most important thing in reviving PvP across all shards.

 

[Riyana]

It has been unnerfed. See here.

I think it could still use some tweaking--I'm not convinced that 1/2 points to your enemies is such a hot idea, and cannons and probably mana spikes are still not (to me) worth the points, but the points for altars and sigils have been increased to a more reasonable number.

 

[Robin_of_Moxy]

It has been unnerfed. See here.

I think it could still use some tweaking--I'm not convinced that 1/2 points to your enemies is such a hot idea, and cannons and probably mana spikes are still not (to me) worth the points, but the points for altars and sigils have been increased to a more reasonable number.

Well they unnerfed some things and yet broke more. They completely took thieves out of the game. Instead of killing the thief role they should have just lowered the mana spike to 250 points. In fact why not lower all consumables to 250? Also the gain of points is slower that when it first started so clearly it is more of a grind still. That said thank got the devs atleast made it playable from a combat standpoint again. What of the new blood we were seeing though. Without the thief role that will be gone I am guessing.