Regarding Banners and Town Recognition

[RaDian FlGith]

As some may know, I have recently petitioned for the removal of the banner at Compassion Grove, as I believe that the new banner rules do not foster the community that the program -- at least in my opinion -- was intended to foster. I am reticent to start this thread because my fear is that this will devolve into a detrimental conversation either (1) bashing the EMs, (2) bashing the banner program, (3) bashing me, or (4) bringing the banner program to a crashing halt again, none of which are my intentions. However, I suppose that it is unfair to not explain why I have requested the removal of the Compassion Grove banner in a manner that allows the discussion that I had hoped the original request for banner removal would have sparked.

My concern with the new rules system is sort of two-fold. First, when it originally went away, there was concern expressed on behalf of people within the community that there should be a discussion among the EMs, community, and Mesanna that would allow us all to express our individual thoughts and desires for the program. I know of several others who expressed this desire, but I know that I personally expressed this to both Mesanna and Elizabella, and my take from these conversations was that such a meeting would occur. Unfortunately, nearly half a year passed without such a meeting ever materializing, and then the banner system is returned with rules that, in my opinion, are restrictive of the community that it should be fostering.

This leads me to my second concern: The banner system has become a sort of headcount that has no exception for the community that it should be helping to foster. Under the new rules, communities that developed around Chicken Fight Club, potentially Fishing Club(?) of Britannia (geez, how can I forget what the C stands for in FCB?), and definitely Majestic Oaks Auction house would all be denied a banner. They are grandfathered in, but should another organization that promoted community to the standards that these three have come along, but failed to group five houses in the same geographic location, they would be denied banner recognition, which, given the propagation of the system, would sort of be detrimental to the overall community that the banners should be helping to foster.

The original banner system did, in fact, offer the ability for a settlement, 1-4 houses, to be recognized, and in Queen Dawn's original announcement, she noted:

The name "town" is used in my announcement here, but it is also representative for communities, auctions houses, player taverns and similar smaller establishments.

Now, I understand that on Great Lakes there was a lashing out by various people in the community about who should receive banners, and I know I personally was very confused by the denial of a banner in an area that couldn't physically hold more houses, but which was certainly event active. I'm certain that a lot of that is where these new rules came from.

But I don't honestly feel it is right and proper to do it in such a manner. I think that the current system is restrictive, and also, while it has an air of transparency, it comes with no method of public feedback from the community. I know it's easier to keep the public out of the situation, but honestly, if this whole thing is to foster community, then the community itself should be involved. Yes, it might lead to some commentary about whether a group of event disruptive players who have a large guild should receive a banner just because they're a large, active guild, but that kind of information should certainly be taken into account.

Presently, the system consists of a petition which is placed at the same time as the answer appears. Personally, I'm very glad to see a couple of banners being approved from groups that I had no idea even existed... but shouldn't there be sort of a public process that allows the community to go see these places, learn of them, meet each other, and garner a bit of support as well?

As it stands, the "community" aspect of the new banner system is simply a head count. Sure, there are components that require activity, but they are rather vague, and could easily be faked. Worse though, this proof of activity might also fail to be acknowledged simply because the playing group might not be on at the same time as the EM investigating it -- imagine if a city has weekly meetings at 10:30pm, and the EM goes there at 7:00pm for four nights and never sees anyone around at all.

These are the reasons that I asked for Compassion Grove's banner to be removed... because I feel that what should have been an open, transparent conversation about how to handle banners never took place, and that the rules were basically set down in a restrictive manner that by design could leave out some very important aspects of community. I would rather that Compassion Grove forgoes a banner if it means that it is not complicit in ignoring a small sector of the community that might be every bit as valuable as larger groups and organizations. I had sort of hoped that the request would have sparked at least some conversation from the EMs regarding it -- instead, sadly, I simply got a "sure, no problem, we'll let the demolition team know."

I understand that such a system will never please everyone, and I understand that there would be no way to take everyone's ideas and implement them. But I learned long ago that by group communication, the best solutions are found. Ideas that may not have been thought of individually or in small conversation sometimes spring to the front. But rather than proceed along the line of keeping the community involved, the decisions were made and passed along.

I sincerely hope that in the demolition of Compassion Grove's banner that it isn't entirely for nothing. That in its destruction, which now seems imminent, at least sparks this conversation in a productive manner, and leads to some healthy reconsideration of the new rules.

In Humility and Honor, I truly hope. And in both I pray this conversation thread remains productive and proves my fears of degradation into a mud-slinging fest to be misplaced.


- Ra'Dian Fl'Gith

 

[T-Hunt]

Do you plane to have a list of the new rules?

And so if you do, i guess all banners even old ones will have to follow them?
Since MOA is not a town , but a long time stapple to GL event in a way, will it keep its banner?
I know a few people who dont think they should have one, but thats not to them or anyone else to decide ,or should it be? (Vote)..

But good luck on this, i hate to be in your shoes...

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Someone asked, so I'll point out the new rules have been posted; look for the sticky post at the top of this board.

These are my thoughts, which I've withheld until now. I haven't spoken much about banners.

A subjectively-defined banner program is a nice thing. And we UO players, sadly especially the case on Great Lakes, can't have nice things. We will abuse them, express resentment about others getting them when we don't, trash others who get what we want and don't have. A subjectively defined banner program allows MOA to get one because of their status in the community and the various services and entertainment they have provided, which is awesome, despite their being just one or a few buildings.

But it also allows for someone who didn't get a banner to openly trash those who already have, to try and throw friends under a bus because of her own resentments.

Compared to "community," "activity" is by contrast fairly easy to define and objectively measure. Reading the reports for Frost Valley and Fens of the Dead, and these reports are on public display, we can see how the EMs are defining "activity."

In an ideal world we could have a subjectively-defined banner program that rewards accomplishment and community and service and activity and numbers all together, and such a program wouldn't cause resentment. We wouldn't be resentful over DC, your former guild Ra, having a banner because they met the objective requirements, despite their shall we say issues as a guild. We wouldn't be resentful over an important rune library getting one. We wouldn't be resentful over an important, historic, and still vital player town getting even though most of the buildings are owned by 2 or 3 people.

But, alas, this is not an ideal world, as the events of late last year, and some of the vile things said in response to those events, has shown.

The new rules are fine.

They are the rules that our behavior has necessitated, and are probably the best the EMs could do given our behavior. To say it's just rewarding numbers isn't really the truth and, in all honesty, I could understand it if they did only use numbers.

On a related but more pleasant note, I stumbled into Fens of the Dead months ago on an alt; I'm glad to see them getting a banner. It's a great town, fighting for its own survival constantly against the swamp and its creatures. And Frost Valley is also a great town.

-Galen's player

 

[RaDian FlGith]

We wouldn't be resentful over DC, your former guild Ra, having a banner because they met the objective requirements, despite their shall we say issues as a guild.

Of course this conversation couldn't happen without that little tidbit, could it?

As I've said a million times, and will say a million more... not everyone in that particular guild is an unmitigated word of choice. However, guild leadership and those who present themselves at events do tend to be -- again, not everyone, just some of them.

And yeah, I think regardless of a perfect world, the idea that a group that attends events for the sole purpose of giving grief to the people providing them if they're player run, or to act in a manner non-becoming of a community if they're EM run, really should not then be "rewarded" for such activity.

But that's neither here nor there, and obviously, the EMs should always have the final say on a banner. In fact, in multiple places, and on multiple occasions, in Vent, on the phone, here on Stratics, over on the EM site, and who knows where else have said that recognition for guilds is a good idea, because obviously active guilds are a source of lifeblood for UO. Thus the GoF banner is definitely one that I would support wholeheartedly, and others of that nature.

There are some banners that I have questioned the appropriateness of, not the least of which being DC*'s, that's true. It definitely has nothing to do with them being my "former guild" given that the only reason I joined them in the first place was on the invitation of a very friend neighbor of mine in Dracona and the fact that there wasn't much else going on at the time. I left DC* not because of their behavior but because the RP community in which I'm involved was doing more again. *shrugs* I don't regret my time with DC* -- there were once a great many nice people in there. Some of which it's my understanding no longer play at all. Again, neither here nor there.

 

[MalagAste]

Having been the recipient of the first Banner on GL's I felt proud that RKV and the town of Newcaastle was given the honor of receiving recognition as a long standing RP community and town.

Do we hold regular meetings... well I wouldn't say that. With the slow death of UO the town of Newcastle consists of very few players anymore. Typically anytime more than one of us is on at a time ..... That's a meeting.

Does the town do "anything"? Yes, you bet. Once a month the Wild Rose Inn and Tavern opens for business.... typically once every 4 weeks... if I'm not too groggy from a bad night of call that is.

With the new "rules" ..... one wonders does this? would this qualify?

Now I don't care about being "Grandfathered". My concern is thus... new communities and even old ones start everyday... I asked MANY times what exactly constitutes "active".

I was told the former rules were too subjective and the new rules were far easier and streamlined and took the subjectivity out of the equation. I'm sorry but the most highly subject thing is "Active".... exactly what is active? Is it.... doing something once a month? Once a week? Daily? Occasionally? Once in a blue moon?

I'm probably amongst the most active folk on the shard. Outside of Sundays I'm on most every evening... I participate in dozens of events, I help young players all the time, I'm forever giving folk advice in chat or helping people find answers to questions about UO. But I also belong to about 20 different guilds. Some with just a few folk and some with several... Do I go and get a dozen banners ... No.

I am still rather upset about the rules of the banners.

First off.... the previous system had a clause for "establishments" but when an establishment asked about a banner... it was denied... even though said establishment did regular monthly events. They were told that a banner can not be given to just one person... now I don't want to rehash old arguments or anything but in my opinion the banner system was designed to "promote" community.... and to recognize those who do things for the community... the new system does NOTHING for the community.... you can do absolutely NOTHING and get a banner because you have 5 houses close together?????

Bah! I'm NOT impressed. I have 8 houses..... 7 of which ARE close together... If I did nothing at all I would qualify...

Active heck yes I am... but I wouldn't have to help anyone... work to better the community or anything.... just have 5 houses???

As far as the "active" requirement .... again I must ask how active is active? What exactly are we talking about "active"? ....

Define active.


I'm not at all happy about the new rules. Gone is the requirement to community.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I mention DC because they have been named, time and time again, in this argument.

My only point, despite your attempt at diversion, is that in an ideal world we wouldn't let resentment of who has what guide us. Upon being denied a banner, we wouldn't cite others we don't like as having banners that we would like to think they do not deserve.

And we surely wouldn't ask that a banner for an area important to the RP community be torn down without consulting the community.

I also never said anything about every member of DC, I merely mean to refer to their collective effect as a guild.

Something with few of their decent members, to my knowledge, deny.

I have of late seen one or two of their more problematic members become less problematic; I should hope that this trend continues though I also note, sadly, others coming forward to take their place and become problematic.

In Fel I fight DC and their great rivals CREW about equally, and surely do not favor one over the other.

But look at that, your diversion has been successful; you've made this about DC when I, clearly, only meant to refer to their collective impact and the thoughts it has engendered.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

As I have stated elsewhere in this thread, if you look at the current applications that've been accepted, Frost Valley and Fens of the Dead, you get an idea of what they mean by active.

As far as I can tell tavern night alone would qualify Newcastle, as well it should. Only one person I'm aware of has ever questioned Newcastle's, or the Nameless Township's for that matter, right to have a banner.

I should fret considerably if you should ever decide Newcastle's banner should come down, as I fret (less so, but noticeably) over Ra's (so far as I know) unilateral decision about the Grove and its banner.

And if "active" is soo subjective, then "community" is surely even moreso. In addition to being more subjective it's also easier to abuse and more prone to causing resentments; as it, indeed, already has.

The new rules are fine. Newcastle would fit, as well it should.

-Galen's player

 

[EM Elizabella]

The new rules are objective standards or as close to objective as possible. The old rules were flexible, but that left room for "various people" (to use Ra'Dian's own phrase) to complain about EVERY single banner. With these rules, every town must meet all four standards, so there’s no room for anyone to dispute the granting of recognition to the new towns.

Recognizing towns based on their "contribution to the community" sounds nice, but everyone has a different definition of community. Public feedback about whether a town should be recognized would degenerate into personal attacks and arguments about playstyle. I'm not interested in hosting the in-game equivalent of a tram vs. fel thread.

It's true that CFC and MOA would not qualify under these rules. CFC would not meet the number of houses rule and MOA, while it has enough houses, would not meet the proximity rule. However, both organizations existed long before the town recognition program and would have continued to hold their auctions and fights even if they hadn't qualified for a banner.

The inflexibility of these rules was not my first choice. However, I've come to realize that this is how the town recognition system has to be on Great Lakes.

 

[MalagAste]

As I have stated elsewhere in this thread, if you look at the current applications that've been accepted, Frost Valley and Fens of the Dead, you get an idea of what they mean by active.

As far as I can tell tavern night alone would qualify Newcastle, as well it should. Only one person I'm aware of has ever questioned Newcastle's, or the Nameless Township's for that matter, right to have a banner.

I should fret considerably if you should ever decide Newcastle's banner should come down, as I fret (less so, but noticeably) over Ra's (so far as I know) unilateral decision about the Grove and its banner.

And if "active" is soo subjective, then "community" is surely even moreso. In addition to being more subjective it's also easier to abuse and more prone to causing resentments; as it, indeed, already has.

The new rules are fine. Newcastle would fit, as well it should.

-Galen's player

I'm not fretting about Newcastle at all.... What is ticking me off is that the old rules were supposedly "subjective" and yet they had FAR more to do with what I felt the Banner system was about which was promoting community... and helping those that DO things for the community.

The new rules or guidelines if you will have NOTHING to do with community at all. They do NOT in any way shape or form suggest that folk should DO things for the community...

And as far as the "Active" thing is concerned it is NOT answered nor is it clear and it's FAR more subjective than it should be.

I'm more concerned about new folk applying for banners being denied even though they ARE good beneficial members of the GL's Community and they DO support the community and provide activities and things to the community yet under the "new" guidelines they do NOT qualify. Seems to me the rules are specifically designed to keep certain people from being eligible even though they do more for the community than most.

THAT is what I'm concerned about.... I am NOT concerned about Newcastle losing it's banner. Newcastle is well known and LONG established township, likely with more history than much of GL's.

Again that's not the point.... the point is the new rules are more subjective than the old... and more constrictive than the old... and at the same time... LESS about community.


From it's inception I guess I just understood the Banners to be more about community... and less about numbers or size. I guess I was wrong... You don't have to care at all or do anything for the community you just need people and housing.

I thought they were more designed to promote folk getting together... and benefiting the shard as a whole, making activities easier to attend and easier to promote... than the self promotion of the recipient. Perhaps I'm wrong about that too.

And I still INSIST that we be given some sort of definition as to the meaning of "active"....

And as far as Frost Valley and Fens of the Dead... Never heard of them. So I guess I don't know about my getting an idea about what is meant by active since... well I've never heard of either of them.

I have heard of the Fishing Council of Britannia.... I have heard of the Chicken Fight Club, I've heard of Majestic Oaks Auctionhouse..... I've heard of the Nameless Rune Library, I've heard of the Guardians of Valhalla.... And I've heard of Compassion Grove and the High Council... and I KNOW how active they all are.

And I've seen how they ALL benefit the community...

So my stance remains..... "How active is active"? Define Active...

 

[MalagAste]

The new rules are objective standards or as close to objective as possible. The old rules were flexible, but that left room for "various people" (to use Ra'Dian's own phrase) to complain about EVERY single banner. With these rules, every town must meet all four standards, so there’s no room for anyone to dispute the granting of recognition to the new towns.

Recognizing towns based on their "contribution to the community" sounds nice, but everyone has a different definition of community. Public feedback about whether a town should be recognized would degenerate into personal attacks and arguments about playstyle. I'm not interested in hosting the in-game equivalent of a tram vs. fel thread.

It's true that CFC and MOA would not qualify under these rules. CFC would not meet the number of houses rule and MOA, while it has enough houses, would not meet the proximity rule. However, both organizations existed long before the town recognition program and would have continued to hold their auctions and fights even if they hadn't qualified for a banner.

The inflexibility of these rules was not my first choice. However, I've come to realize that this is how the town recognition system has to be on Great Lakes.

Well then what happens when someone else puts in a request who is everybit as active in the community as MoA? Do you make special rules for them or are they now SOL? Because I"m not at all pleased with the rules at all ..... Houseing hasn't got a single thing to do with benefit to the community...... or the community at all .... so now the banners are completely NOT for the community but for the individual???

 

[T-Hunt]

Question, Why have two Banners so closse to each other also?

FCB and Banks are a stones trow from each other, like 3 screens.

And also who are what is Banks?
All ive seen is a castle with Bank on it , nothing else?

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I mention DC because they have been named, time and time again, in this argument.

My only point, despite your attempt at diversion, is that in an ideal world we wouldn't let resentment of who has what guide us. Upon being denied a banner, we wouldn't cite others we don't like as having banners that we would like to think they do not deserve.

I agree to an extent, save that I would still say that providing a banner to "DC*" -- since they're the obvious, unmentioned example -- would still have been ill advised based on the idea that the banners support community, not those who do their best to detract from community, previous examples withstanding. As for my attempt at diversion... I see no other reason to include the words "your former guild" than to attempt to drive home some sort of point, and I was simply explaining my involvement with the guild in particular. Not the best of diversions if you ask me.

But look at that, your diversion has been successful; you've made this about DC when I, clearly, only meant to refer to their collective impact and the thoughts it has engendered.

Yes... that was all me... Considering I didn't even mention them to begin with. I return this thread to the topic it was intended for.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

The new rules are objective standards or as close to objective as possible. The old rules were flexible, but that left room for "various people" (to use Ra'Dian's own phrase) to complain about EVERY single banner. With these rules, every town must meet all four standards, so there’s no room for anyone to dispute the granting of recognition to the new towns.

These rules won't necessarily eliminate complaints... and, in truth, are probably nearly as open to abuse as the old ones... but I understand in all cases the need for rules. The two issues I had I raised above...

Recognizing towns based on their "contribution to the community" sounds nice, but everyone has a different definition of community. Public feedback about whether a town should be recognized would degenerate into personal attacks and arguments about playstyle. I'm not interested in hosting the in-game equivalent of a tram vs. fel thread.

I'm not in any way suggesting that "contribution to the community" be the only factor behind banners... more to follow on that point, which I hope will make sense in a moment. As for public feedback, my suggestion would be more to the idea of constructive books allowed to be submitted; I mean, honestly, people will say what they want anyway. It would be nice to see some community interaction... though, I can see the issues with full public involvement too. I was more surprised that the community wasn't involved in the decision on the banner rules, mostly because it was indicated there would be some sort of meeting involving the community to help hammer out some of the quirks.

It's true that CFC and MOA would not qualify under these rules. CFC would not meet the number of houses rule and MOA, while it has enough houses, would not meet the proximity rule. However, both organizations existed long before the town recognition program and would have continued to hold their auctions and fights even if they hadn't qualified for a banner.

I understand that a CFC or MOA wouldn't be adversely affected by the lack of a banner. However, my understanding about banners is that they're sort of a way to -- particularly since they're linked now -- get word out about the various active guilds, organizations, et cetera in the overall gaming community, and to provide a way to easily reach them. Obviously CFC or MOA aren't going to close up shop if they don't get one, but since banners should (again, in my opinion) certainly be inclusive of community organizations such as these, it would be a shame that were another to rise it would be denied a banner simply because of location or lack of five geographically located houses.

The inflexibility of these rules was not my first choice. However, I've come to realize that this is how the town recognition system has to be on Great Lakes.

Well, and I guess that's my issue... we don't know how you reached this decision, we know nothing of the process that went into it, and again, even though a conversation with you and one with Mesanna both indicated there'd be at least a feedback session or meeting or something of those sorts to sort at least get community thought on the issue, that never happened. I'm actually rather confused as to what would cause that to be the case.

Again, my belief as the banner system was initially implemented across the shards, is that they were to foster community, and that should be inclusive rather than divisive. I understand that -- regardless of private issues raised between players that should definitely have remained private except in the situation with DC* -- some people made fusses... I don't necessarily think that the change in rules will avoid that, so I don't see that it follows that being extra restrictive is good for the overall process.

And I'll readily admit, I wouldn't necessarily want to be in your shoes having to make these decisions. My biggest disappointment is the lack of open communication that was both implied would be there, and in my opinion, really should have been with regard to the rules changes. I suspect that a greater involvement might have led to fairer, more inclusive rules than what are presently available.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Question, Why have two Banners so closse to each other also?

FCB and Banks are a stones trow from each other, like 3 screens.

And also who are what is Banks?
All ive seen is a castle with Bank on it , nothing else?

I can't really say much about BANK other than what I've heard, and given that, it's probably best not to say anything at all.

Proximity of banners probably shouldn't make a difference. FCB is definitely a worthy organization; I can't really say whether BANK is or not as I know very little about how the banner came to be (something that I will say the new system addresses, by putting the petitions and results in public).

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Regarding the word "active." Yes, I'll say "active" is a very subjective term, and to me, it's really a non-issue as far as that goes. Activity really should simply mean that there is an active group that participates in or around the area of the banner. If it's a guild, that's easy enough; if it's a city, then stuff going on; if it's an organization, regular meetings or events. I guess the only clarity I'd want is whether a once a month event would qualify, or if it's something more like twice a month, once a week, et cetera.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Regarding the word "active." Yes, I'll say "active" is a very subjective term, and to me, it's really a non-issue as far as that goes. Activity really should simply mean that there is an active group that participates in or around the area of the banner. If it's a guild, that's easy enough; if it's a city, then stuff going on; if it's an organization, regular meetings or events. I guess the only clarity I'd want is whether a once a month event would qualify, or if it's something more like twice a month, once a week, et cetera.

If you look at the the banners they have approved recently, you can get a pretty clear idea of what they mean by "active." Some appears to be by observation and some by taking the applicants' word for it.

"Active" is far less subjective than "commnity" is.

I held an event to take the RP alliance into Ter Mur to kill void demons.

Was I supporting community? Was I merely being self-aggrandizing? Same for the Magincian Crusade. Community or self-promotion? Who can really say?

Either way I was definitely active. That much is fairly easy to discern.

One cannot, reasonably, accuse the new system of being too subjective and then propose a more subjective criterion.

-Galen's player

 

[RaDian FlGith]

One cannot, reasonably, accuse the new system of being too subjective and then propose a more subjective criterion.

I don't believe I did. The only specific criterion I have taken issue with presently is the issue with limiting it to a geographically dense housing locale. To me, an MOA or a CFC (which I know are grandfathered) that might appear in the future is every bit as important to the community (and in this sense, I mean "gaming community in general" not " the roleplaying community" or any other specific community part), and should warrant a banner that would allow people who might otherwise not be aware of such a community entity to be able to learn of it.

As far as "activity" goes, I was actually indicating that my only thought would be clarification, not further subjectivity.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I don't believe I did.

I was reacting to:

Regarding the word "active." Yes, I'll say "active" is a very subjective term, and to me, it's really a non-issue as far as that goes.

Also other things said in the thread.

The only specific criterion I have taken issue with presently is the issue with limiting it to a geographically dense housing locale. To me, an MOA or a CFC (which I know are grandfathered) that might appear in the future is every bit as important to the community (and in this sense, I mean "gaming community in general" not " the roleplaying community" or any other specific community part), and should warrant a banner that would allow people who might otherwise not be aware of such a community entity to be able to learn of it.

There really isn't much that can happen in this game that won't cause complaints.

I also don't see anything in the new rules that implies things that don't get banners are somehow less important; unless of course, one wants to define the lack of banners as meaning a lack of importance.

Which I'd disagree with. And I seriously doubt they could give banners to everything that's in some way important to the community. Or even most things.

And for that matter, then, why make the decision on your own to ask them to tear down a banner for a location that's important to the RP community more broadly? So far as I know none of us were consulted on your decision, I know I wasn't, and if the lack of a banner connotes lack of importance, does that mean you consider the HC building to lack importance?

When banners first came around I considered them to be for towns; it never occurred to me that other kinds of units could be recognized. When they were, I was glad, and then that gladness changed when I saw the resentment the banners were causing in some. Like I said in my first post in your thread, we, sadly, can't have nice things in this game. We abuse them too readily and destroy them too well. We see what others have and want them and assume there's something wrong when we don't get them.

The new rules reflect that unfortunate reality. They are fine.

As far as "activity" goes, I was actually indicating that my only thought would be clarification, not further subjectivity.

And again, look at the recently-approved banners and I think you will have a fairly clear idea of what they have in mind. At least I am pretty sure I do.

-Galen's player

 

[MalagAste]

I don't believe I did. The only specific criterion I have taken issue with presently is the issue with limiting it to a geographically dense housing locale. To me, an MOA or a CFC (which I know are grandfathered) that might appear in the future is every bit as important to the community (and in this sense, I mean "gaming community in general" not " the roleplaying community" or any other specific community part), and should warrant a banner that would allow people who might otherwise not be aware of such a community entity to be able to learn of it.

As far as "activity" goes, I was actually indicating that my only thought would be clarification, not further subjectivity.

This I agree with 100%.

I see NO reason to limit and restrict based on geographical location and having to have a certain number of houses... Housing means NOTHING.

Activity and community involvement to me are FAR more important. Things that foster community or give folk things to do, entertain or assist the masses should not be penalized because they don't have X # of buildings in a given area.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I also don't see anything in the new rules that implies things that don't get banners are somehow less important; unless of course, one wants to define the lack of banners as meaning a lack of importance.

Which I'd disagree with. And I seriously doubt they could give banners to everything that's in some way important to the community. Or even most things.

It depends on what you define "importance" as. Does having a banner make an establishment more "important" as in is it somehow better than an establishment that doesn't have one? No.

But let me explain why I think it's an issue. The "importance" of a banner comes not specifically from any one particular location having one, but rather from the idea that there is a central network that allows you to travel to the various places on the hub. Having a banner does make it easier on the gaming community in general to learn where the "hot spots" are in game. Particularly in the current UO, where population is spread thinly across Trammel, Malas, Tokuno, and Ter Mur with a lesser spread in Felucca -- and that's just the available housing areas -- it seems to me that using the banner system to promote the various aspects of the game that players have taken a vested interest in boosting should be the primary goal of the system.

And for that matter, then, why make the decision on your own to ask them to tear down a banner for a location that's important to the RP community more broadly? So far as I know none of us were consulted on your decision, I know I wasn't, and if the lack of a banner connotes lack of importance, does that mean you consider the HC building to lack importance?

My decision came specifically -- as stated in the petition itself -- so as to remove from the system a banner that, in my opinion, by continuing to hold onto would be complicit in saying, "I'm okay with Compassion Grove recognized, and I don't care whether or not the next MOA or the next FCB or the next CFC is able to get a banner to help forward their own goals in the game." To me, the banner system -- again, as initially implemented -- was about building the community in general. I don't see that this is necessarily the case anymore. At some level, it does remain so, but I think the removal of the "establishment" level of banners does the entire system a great injustice.

Why didn't I consult others? In this particular instance, I felt confident enough in the decision. Sure, I could file an "oops, I acted hastily petition," but I'm not going to, because I'm not the type to take action just for the sake of trying to garner attention and then back off as soon that attention is garnered. Will Compassion Grove suffer? No more or less than any other institution in the game. Was it a hasty decision? Perhaps. Do I stand behind it? Absolutely.

When banners first came around I considered them to be for towns; it never occurred to me that other kinds of units could be recognized. When they were, I was glad, and then that gladness changed when I saw the resentment the banners were causing in some. Like I said in my first post in your thread, we, sadly, can't have nice things in this game. We abuse them too readily and destroy them too well. We see what others have and want them and assume there's something wrong when we don't get them.

I understand you're broadstroking the shard in general, and I agree with you to some extent. The stance I've always taken -- with the one specific exception I've noted -- is that the system should always err on the side of inclusion. Yes, I know I've had choice words in private about another one of the banners, but my stance then, is now, and will continue to be that while I personally thought it was a bad choice, it was an EM decision, and it certainly isn't hurting anything. The only banner I truly thought was in poor taste was the one that went to the folks who spent a lot of time griefing player-run and EM events at the time the banner was granted. I'm sure they may have changed some... when I was with them, they weren't as bad as they became, and recently they do seem a bit tamer to me too. But my feelings were a reflection of that time.

The new rules reflect that unfortunate reality. They are fine.

I respectfully disagree that they are fine as is.

And again, look at the recently-approved banners and I think you will have a fairly clear idea of what they have in mind. At least I am pretty sure I do.

*chuckles* I have looked at them... I'm not sure they breath clarity into the verification of it, but again, I'm not really on any sort of crusade about the activity level as long as there is some sort of activity. I'm very on-board with the idea of not bannering dead places; while I miss Tar Valon, I'd not want to see a banner there just because it used to be the "in place" to be.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I was surely not asking you to rescind your request to have the HC building banner torn down.

I do, however, feel that you deserve blame, not praise, for a unilateral decision that impacted the rest of the community. Your actions impacted all of us.

Regardless of how you recast it, you're implying that places are less important without a banner; in which case you have, I state again, diminished the importance of a set of structures of great importance to the RP community. And you did it without consulting us. If your vision of the banner hub is a network of "in places to be" versus a network of towns (in effect the equivalent of the Moongates for the EA-run towns), then you have taken us off the list of in places to be.

And if my description of a Moongate-like network of towns is accurate, then you have taken us off of the Moongate menu.

Strictly in general terms a more subjective process would be fine with me.....If it wouldn't cause resentment and drama which it does, and has. Hence the new and more reserictive rules, and while I don't like that they were necessary I find them fine the way they are. Any system or set of rules is subject to nit-picking by people who don't like it.

What I notice from the current banner application reports is that the activity requirement is something of a hair trigger, as it should be. If they notice activity or have credible reports of it, the requirement has been met, or so it seems from those reports. I harp on activity because others in this thread, including yourself, have highlighted the allegedly subjective nature of the requirement, to which I respond that it's less subjective, and considerably easier to measure, than "community." And again I cite the examples of my events. Were those for community or for gratifying my own tortured ego?

Finally, one thing was made clear to me by EM Elizabella's statements on the GL EM site during the last time resentment over the banner program erupted: Banners are a pain in the ass. From a technical perspective and definitely from a social perspective. Look at this thread! That alone, to me, justifies their actually not erring on the side of inclusion. When they do err on the side of inclusion, it has come back to bite them. There were banners called into question in the discussion on the EM site that I was rather disquieted to see called into question. I should rather them focus on events than banners, myself. Banners are great, or at least they were before they became more trouble than they were worth even from my pespective let alone from theirs, but neither a player town nor a center of community and activity should feel they need one.

-Galen's player

It depends on what you define "importance" as. Does having a banner make an establishment more "important" as in is it somehow better than an establishment that doesn't have one? No.

But let me explain why I think it's an issue. The "importance" of a banner comes not specifically from any one particular location having one, but rather from the idea that there is a central network that allows you to travel to the various places on the hub. Having a banner does make it easier on the gaming community in general to learn where the "hot spots" are in game. Particularly in the current UO, where population is spread thinly across Trammel, Malas, Tokuno, and Ter Mur with a lesser spread in Felucca -- and that's just the available housing areas -- it seems to me that using the banner system to promote the various aspects of the game that players have taken a vested interest in boosting should be the primary goal of the system.

My decision came specifically -- as stated in the petition itself -- so as to remove from the system a banner that, in my opinion, by continuing to hold onto would be complicit in saying, "I'm okay with Compassion Grove recognized, and I don't care whether or not the next MOA or the next FCB or the next CFC is able to get a banner to help forward their own goals in the game." To me, the banner system -- again, as initially implemented -- was about building the community in general. I don't see that this is necessarily the case anymore. At some level, it does remain so, but I think the removal of the "establishment" level of banners does the entire system a great injustice.

Why didn't I consult others? In this particular instance, I felt confident enough in the decision. Sure, I could file an "oops, I acted hastily petition," but I'm not going to, because I'm not the type to take action just for the sake of trying to garner attention and then back off as soon that attention is garnered. Will Compassion Grove suffer? No more or less than any other institution in the game. Was it a hasty decision? Perhaps. Do I stand behind it? Absolutely.

I understand you're broadstroking the shard in general, and I agree with you to some extent. The stance I've always taken -- with the one specific exception I've noted -- is that the system should always err on the side of inclusion. Yes, I know I've had choice words in private about another one of the banners, but my stance then, is now, and will continue to be that while I personally thought it was a bad choice, it was an EM decision, and it certainly isn't hurting anything. The only banner I truly thought was in poor taste was the one that went to the folks who spent a lot of time griefing player-run and EM events at the time the banner was granted. I'm sure they may have changed some... when I was with them, they weren't as bad as they became, and recently they do seem a bit tamer to me too. But my feelings were a reflection of that time.

I respectfully disagree that they are fine as is.

*chuckles* I have looked at them... I'm not sure they breath clarity into the verification of it, but again, I'm not really on any sort of crusade about the activity level as long as there is some sort of activity. I'm very on-board with the idea of not bannering dead places; while I miss Tar Valon, I'd not want to see a banner there just because it used to be the "in place" to be.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

This I agree with 100%.

I see NO reason to limit and restrict based on geographical location and having to have a certain number of houses... Housing means NOTHING.

Activity and community involvement to me are FAR more important. Things that foster community or give folk things to do, entertain or assist the masses should not be penalized because they don't have X # of buildings in a given area.

I don't see how it's a penalty to not have a banner. Banners are great, save when they cause resentment and drama, but no town or establishment should feel it needs one.

When they originally came out I saw them as a way to certify towns. When it turned out they were broader I was deligeted, only to find that delight turn to horror when the resentment started.

I'd disagree that housing means nothing when one considers how often we, correctly, cite housing as something that makes UO unique and special. The ability to make one's own town is a great part of this game; that player towns can be certified is, while not necessary, also great....Except when it causes drama. As I recall isn't this what happened during the old Seer programs too?

As an aside I'll say I'm sorry you haven't heard of Fens of the Dead or Frost Valley as you mentioned in another post. They are great places; I've been to both. Fens I stumbled into by accident, Frost Valley I discovered when one of their residents made a daisho for Cinque. (Ironically I found Fens when on as Cinque also.)

-Galen's player

 

[EM Elizabella]

Town recognition is not a good citizenship award. It is to recognize and link towns. The reward for being a beneficial member of a community is the respect and friendship of other members of that community.

Ra'Dian, if you'd like to ask Lady Louisa to postpone the demolition until the High Council can meet and discuss it, just drop a book in the mailbox.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Regardless of how you recast it, you're implying that places are less important without a banner...

Galen, I understand that when you and I disagree that it will be a lengthy process... it's just the nature of how we tend to disagree, and I'm truly okay with that. What I'm not okay with though is the insinuation that I am somehow being disingenuous with my intentions and/or that I'm attempting to change my reasons for doing something.

Perhaps you feel that is the argument that I am making, and that's perfectly fine. But at some level, you should take into account that I am being honest about my own reasoning.

As for the banner and not consulting anyone, I stepped forward neither for blame nor for praise. I simply did what I felt was right and appropriate. How in the world can I hypocritically stand here and argue for the inclusion of places that would -- by almost any standard -- clearly qualify as worthy (understanding that "clearly" is from my own perspective in this argument), and do so from the safety net of "It really doesn't matter to me, I've already petitioned for and received a banner on behalf of the community." It really does mean something to me.

Finally, one thing was made clear to me by EM Elizabella's statements on the GL EM site during the last time resentment over the banner program erupted: Banners are a pain in the ass. From a technical perspective and definitely from a social perspective. Look at this thread! That alone, to me, justifies their actually not erring on the side of inclusion. When they do err on the side of inclusion, it has come back to bite them.

I seriously doubt banners are a pain in the ass. From a technical perspective, yeah, it requires Mesanna to log in and build the thing, and from time to time, the building is difficult. But I suspect that Mesanna enjoys putting them together, and is doing it to leave a nice mark for groups on the landscape of UO and to help define each shard's unique (god I wish I could find another word just so as to avoid the forthcoming reminder that the term is subjective) community. As for dealing with any fallout from the program, well, you know, maybe that just requires something a little more strong from the EMs: if you can't complain in a peaceful, constructive manner, then don't bother. Personally, I've not approached the EMs in person, private, or even here on the boards in anything other than a polite tone. I'm not trying to foster difficulty for the program, but rather inclusion. And no matter the stated reason, I don't think there's ever a reason to err on the side of exclusion.

There were banners called into question in the discussion on the EM site that I was rather disquieted to see called into question. I should rather them focus on events than banners, myself. Banners are great, or at least they were before they became more trouble than they were worth even from my pespective let alone from theirs, but neither a player town nor a center of community and activity should feel they need one.

As for banners being called into question, I know of two myself that I ever discussed, and only one that I've ever taken beyond private conversation. I don't intend to ever make the other one public simply because there's absolutely no need to. Now, I know there are others who have had other things to say, and that's fine too. But were these questions done in public or private? I know one that went public, sort of understandably in my opinion. I'm not aware of others, though I can consider one probably candidate there. I'm pretty sure my stance was that while sure, we sort of have the right to grumble amongst ourselves, that we should choose any battle carefully so as specifically not to make the program a pain. Did others heed that advice? I can't really say. I can only say that there's a difference between ICQ, Vent, and actually writing in letters of complaint or standing at an EM meeting making a fuss. To each their own, I suppose.

And again, I agree... no piece of community should ever feel that they need a banner. I think I demonstrated that sort of clearly.

However, no one can reasonably argue that there is no benefit to having obtained one.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Town recognition is not a good citizenship award. It is to recognize and link towns. The reward for being a beneficial member of a community is the respect and friendship of other members of that community.

Nor am I suggesting that town recognition is necessarily a "good citizenship award." I don't think of MOA or CFC as the work of a single person, I look at it as a collective effort that typically revolves around a single building or field or whatever. I guess perhaps I've improperly communicated my issue, so let me clarify. In no way am I trying to indicate that a single person with a single house who is single-handedly holding events should be given a banner.

Now, I know there are some who might be likely to rush out here and state that I have, in the past, supported such a situation, and if I were in a perfect world, that would be enough to qualify. However, I do understand the issue with "Well if he gets one, so should I," and certainly the rules clarifications should clear that up. Though, truthfully, as the rules stand, a single person with five accounts that holds an event could probably sneak through the system, but that's in the hands of the EMs anyway.

My concern isn't about making sure that everyone on GL who has ever held an event gets a banner in front of their house. Rather, again, I would hate to see an organization like MOA spring up and then, because it's a single house somewhere in the woods, or two houses across facets, or whatever that they would be denied a banner simply due to not being a "town." As far as towns go, I again refer to the quotation way above wherein Queen Dawn's announcement made the clarification that "town" was not the sole purpose of the system.

Ra'Dian, if you'd like to ask Lady Louisa to postpone the demolition until the High Council can meet and discuss it, just drop a book in the mailbox.

If there is a member of the High Council who wishes to make that proposal in my stead, and who wishes to bring it forth the general assembly of the High Council, I have no qualm about them doing so. It is not a request I myself shall make, but I do appreciate the offer.

 

[neptune1369]

*Shakes head * Guess i have be quite on this long enuff.

Town recognition is not a good citizenship award.

This is where your wrong, lets call it for what it is.A banner is a REWARD. It's a last recognition showing that you have contrubuted to the futher experance of the game.Sadly some can agure over what that is and it's like what was said "we can't have nice things anymore".The banner system was intended to to foster community,not to be givin as a reward for having mulit-accounts or having a big guild as it is.Truth be told ,Yes i play on other shards, Yes i have seen what the banner system is sopost to be like, Would i like to have one? Well at one time yes i would have but now, Whats the point? Why should i care?
'

 

[Trebr Drab]

Town recognition is not a good citizenship award. It is to recognize and link towns. The reward for being a beneficial member of a community is the respect and friendship of other members of that community.

Ra'Dian, if you'd like to ask Lady Louisa to postpone the demolition until the High Council can meet and discuss it, just drop a book in the mailbox.

That would be a good place to take banners, and build on the capabilities of towns. Like an old style guild stone.
I hope that's the idea, anyways.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Galen, I understand that when you and I disagree that it will be a lengthy process... it's just the nature of how we tend to disagree, and I'm truly okay with that. What I'm not okay with though is the insinuation that I am somehow being disingenuous with my intentions and/or that I'm attempting to change my reasons for doing something.

I find it interesting, and intellectual useful, to point out the logical consequences of ideas.

An excellent example in this case is that I have locked myself into being ok with DC having a banner. And, in some sense, I am, because I feel that's preferable to having a program that's too subjective and causes pains in the EMs' asses.

Perhaps you feel that is the argument that I am making, and that's perfectly fine.

Again, no, not necessarily; mostly I am pointing out the logical consequences of your ideas.

As for the banner and not consulting anyone, I stepped forward neither for blame nor for praise. I simply did what I felt was right and appropriate. How in the world can I hypocritically stand here and argue for the inclusion of places that would -- by almost any standard -- clearly qualify as worthy (understanding that "clearly" is from my own perspective in this argument), and do so from the safety net of "It really doesn't matter to me, I've already petitioned for and received a banner on behalf of the community." It really does mean something to me.

This was not the only perspective you could come to that conclusion (meaning the conclusion to NOT ask them to tear down the Grove banner) from, though. As you state at the end of the post, there are benefits to having a banner, and those benefits were distributed throughout the RP community, and now you've unilaterally taken them away. It was not only your benefit.

Or, at least I thought it wasn't.

I seriously doubt banners are a pain in the ass.

However much you may doubt that, look at this thread; look at the constant questioning of them at the end of the last couple of events; look at the long thread on the EM site the last time banners were an issue.

If I'd been hired as an EM, which I am now glad I wasn't, I wouldn't have done a banner program at all. I would have remembered the Seer banner program and known where this would go.

Also recall the content of the thread on the EM site, not just the acrimony but also the description of the process of building the banner.

And no matter the stated reason, I don't think there's ever a reason to err on the side of exclusion.

I do often, and this is one of those times, prudent and in the longer run fairer. Especially in this game.

Should I have demanded a banner for running the Magincian Crusades? I submit not. That's not really what the banner program was ever for, and that's assuming that you do not wish to argue that the Crusades were primarily about my own ego....As I'm quite positive at least one or two people do.

The rules are fine; our behavior has basically made them necessary even if they weren't.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

This is where your wrong, lets call it for what it is.A banner is a REWARD. It's a last recognition showing that you have contrubuted to the futher experance of the game.Sadly some can agure over what that is and it's like what was said "we can't have nice things anymore".The banner system was intended to to foster community,not to be givin as a reward for having mulit-accounts or having a big guild as it is.Truth be told ,Yes i play on other shards, Yes i have seen what the banner system is sopost to be like, Would i like to have one? Well at one time yes i would have but now, Whats the point? Why should i care?
'

I've actually seen it in exactly the manner EM Elizabella has described.

From an in-character perspective what bothers me more than anything is that an evil town or a town opposed in some way to the Crown is equally eligible; but oh well.

The banner program to me has always been about being the equivalent certifying a place as a town. Really just that. Player towns existed in between the equivalent Seer program and the current banner program and will continue to exist with or without banners. And for these purpose I do count a collection of buildings associated with a certain guild as a town. The same way in the landscape of the middle ages you might stumble across a small settlement, or IRL you might stumble across a bedroom community of some kind, little more than houses, a pizza shop, a bar, and (of course) a McDonald's.

I was delighted to see the banners go to things beyond towns as well; and was disquieted, if not especially surprised, to see the circumstances arise that necessitated their being taken back to first principles.

-Galen's player

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I find it interesting, and intellectual useful, to point out the logical consequences of ideas.

Like I say, I don't mind the debate, and I do respect your opinion. We just differ -- quite a bit -- on this particular subject.

An excellent example in this case is that I have locked myself into being ok with DC having a banner. And, in some sense, I am, because I feel that's preferable to having a program that's too subjective and causes pains in the EMs' asses.

In truth, I think it's preferable too. It's why, up until this thread, I've never specifically named a particular guild, and why the only time I mentioned it in the former thread on the subject over on the EM site was in passing.

Again, I'd rather see the program err on the side of inclusion, and if that means that some slip through the cracks, I'd rather suffer the cracks than ignore an establishment that is as equally worthy as a collection of houses.

That, of course, in no way means I might not sit and swear up a storm in Vent in a private conversation. What others do, I really can't control... But what we fuss about in private is not always worth fussing about in public.

Again, no, not necessarily; mostly I am pointing out the logical consequences of your ideas.

I think we sort of disagree on the logical backdrop though. Not that any discussion would be worthwhile having if we all hit from the same perspective.

This was not the only perspective you could come to that conclusion (meaning the conclusion to NOT ask them to tear down the Grove banner) from, though. As you state at the end of the post, there are benefits to having a banner, and those benefits were distributed throughout the RP community, and now you've unilaterally taken them away. It was not only your benefit.

Or, at least I thought it wasn't.

Again, I feel that it would have been hypocritical of me to argue this point from the safety of "Well, I've got one, so whatever I say, it doesn't matter..." Yes, I understand the decision affects the RP community, and I understand that the demolition will certainly remove something from that community. On the other hand, I also felt that if I had nothing to sacrifice in this exchange, then the exchange would have had no meaning.

And, no, I definitely have never seen Compassion Grove, save the two museum buildings, as mine -- except when people demand that I redesign one of the buildings to their precise, exacting specifications (suggestions, fine, demands, not so much... hehe). Compassion Grove was born of Sacrifice, but it's something that was very appropriate to have put together.

Yes, I understand the duality of my stance, my request of the banner, and all of that... It wasn't a decision I came to lightly, nor one that I think I would do differently given another chance. Regrets? Sure, I have some. But sometimes regret is the product of having had to take a chance that an open dialogue with meaningful sacrifice would lead to an open discussion. I'm not certain that will be the case, but I feel no more or less good or bad about having chosen this path.

However much you may doubt that, look at this thread; look at the constant questioning of them at the end of the last couple of events; look at the long thread on the EM site the last time banners were an issue.

If the banners were too much of an inconvenience, the program would not have been born. Regardless of what happens from Mythic to the game, there will always be those for, against, or indifferent. The EM program itself causes enough waves at every turn -- there was no question in any reasonable mind that the banner program would beget the same.

If I'd been hired as an EM, which I am now glad I wasn't, I wouldn't have done a banner program at all. I would have remembered the Seer banner program and known where this would go.

Truthfully, the "blessed establishment" thing was a good thing that, unfortunately, became plagued with favoritism. Of course, the policing and building and all of that were handled in a much different fashion. I stand by the banner program as being overall a good thing to have implemented. I just don't see the necessity for Great Lakes to lose a particular category of potential recognition simply for the sake of having done so.

Also recall the content of the thread on the EM site, not just the acrimony but also the description of the process of building the banner.

I understand what goes into building a banner... Again, if it were that much of a pain to accomplish, I doubt it would have been born, much less continue.

I do often, and this is one of those times, prudent and in the longer run fairer. Especially in this game.

I don't see much fairness in the matter at present, but we're definitely observing through two different lenses.

Should I have demanded a banner for running the Magincian Crusades? I submit not. That's not really what the banner program was ever for, and that's assuming that you do not wish to argue that the Crusades were primarily about my own ego....As I'm quite positive at least one or two people do.

In truth, no, you shouldn't have, not for any reason other than it was tied to a short term event (well, as short term as anything tends to be in UO with regard to events, but I digress). I don't believe they were a personal ego stroke, and yes, I know there are others who think otherwise. I've commended you in game, out of game as well, I believe, and to at least one person who felt otherwise.

But, if say the Legacy of the Fallen frequently held events, and the typical run of things was to say meet at the LotF guildhouse on Thursday nights every other, every, or even on the first Thursday of the month, and all they had was one house and wanted banner recognition, I'd certainly support it.

Again, to me, banner recognition was intended to be by my interpretation of how the program was announced a system in which those who added to the enjoyment of the game in some fashion were brought together in a way that highlighted them to other players. Truly, if that's not the case, then really, why have banners at all? If it's just about tossing a few houses in the woods, calling it a town, and showing some sign of life, is that really something any group should necessarily be recognized for? I'm again using the overarching game community as in those who play the game, and I say that when a group, guild, organization, whatever truly brings something to the game -- whether that be events, a large active guild, auctions and other special events, chicken fights, political roleplay, vampire bondage dens, whatever... the banners to me were a way of publicizing those particular establishments to the other people on the shard to promote the various styles of play that would encourage others to perhaps seek these places out and find new or heightened enjoyment of the game. Perhaps I'm wrong, but, I doubt I'm far off the mark.

The rules are fine; our behavior has basically made them necessary even if they weren't.

The rules are not fine, and I disagree there was a need to make them more exclusionary.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

The now-former system, among other things, gave a space within which people who already had banners could be questioned. (Any system would, but that one more than average.)

When it first started someone whom I'd never heard of before popped onto the EM site and asked "what about one person who owns multiple accounts with multiple houses and calls it a town?" EM Elizabella, justly, responded by saying something like, if a random stranger would walk into that area and look at all the buildings and signs and see some kind of connection, that that area would could count. (The paraphrase is very loose.)

And thus the controversy started early. The issue, if you can call it that, of multiple accounts making a town arose again during the unpleasantness of late last year, alongside that of DC's banner. Resentment knows no statute of limitations.

With regards the Grove, you seem to not realize something critical. You seem to assume that the only path which could have led you to not request the banner be torn down was the path of, "well, I've already got mine, no need to worry."

And I say, there was another path which also led to your not making that request: The path which said, "maybe the Grove's banner isn't exclusively mine."

Now, I'm not asking either you or the EMs to keep it: I say let it come down. The time to consult the rest of the community over this has already long passed.

On the blessed establishment program, I want to clarify something.....The old blessed establishment program was harmed by accusations of favoritism. Whether or not the accusations were true I honestly never looked into. I used to give those accusations a lot of credence, but seeing similar things said now, about the banner program, when they are clearly not warranted, I am now not so sure. I wonder if maybe the blessed establishment controversy was mostly just that as well.

Here are some examples of current banners which I feel have come under scrutiny beyond any scrutiny which was warranted:

• The questioning of the CFC's unique banner on the EM site late last year.
• The questioning of MOA's banner around when they first got it.
• Your comments about Bank's banner in this very thread, and yes it counts as a comment to say "I shouldn't say what I think."
• The questioning of Newcastle's banner (which I feel to be particularly unjust given Malag's importance to the RP community and given how long Newcastle's been around).
• The questioning of the Nameless Township's banner.
• The questioning of Frost Valley's and Fens of the Dead Township's banners in this very thread.

If the above could be subject to accusations, it makes me wonder how much truth there was to the accusations about the blessed establishment program.

And I personally think an excellent case could have been made for a banner to the Magincian Crusades under the "community" criteria, and if you'd err on the side of inclusion the case becomes all the stronger. Sure it was a temporary event but how many other player-run events have you seen that attracted that crowd? EM participation was neat but people showed up not knowing if it would occur or not. The team used footage from one of those events, one of my events, for the State of the Game video. You can see DaKaren slowly advancing up one of the parliament building bridges (now bank bridges I suppose) on his armored boura.

What about for Cire or Lady Mai or the others who host community hunts on a regular or semi-regular basis, with little fanfare save "hunt leaving West Brit Bank in 5 minutes," and no explicit bids for recognition whatsoever? I guarantee you someone would resent and question something like that and cry favoritism.

At least now, the EMs could say "they met X clear and known criteria." Less fun unfortunately, but the controversies alone are sufficient proof that we can't have nice things. And a subjectively defined banner program is a nice thing.

-Galen's player

 

[PASmountaindew]

In this game I see three types of people that play...

1. Those that have something that other don't and rub everyone's noses in it.

2. Those that believe that if they can not have something then no one should be able to have it either.

3. Those that play just for the fun of playing and being a part of a community.

This is not directed at anyone specifically and is my opinion. I don't play on Great Lakes so the only interaction I have with all of you is on here but I have played other shards other than my home shard and I can clearly see these three types of people on all the shards I have played on.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

In this game I see three types of people that play...

1. Those that have something that other don't and rub everyone's noses in it.

2. Those that believe that if they can not have something then no one should be able to have it either.

3. Those that play just for the fun of playing and being a part of a community.

This is not directed at anyone specifically and is my opinion. I don't play on Great Lakes so the only interaction I have with all of you is on here but I have played other shards other than my home shard and I can clearly see these three types of people on all the shards I have played on.

I'd add a fourth category... those that play the game not only to enjoy it, but to help build a community (of some sort, no specifics for this conversation), and who actually enjoy helping and seeing others succeed as well. It's a rarer breed perhaps, but in nearly 14 years, I can I've definitely seen quite a few of 'em in my time.

 

[MalagAste]

I still feel that new system does nothing for the building of community.

My only objections to the banners have been over the "community" aspect of the system and the lack of clarity on what exactly IS meant by "active".

The former system specifically mentioned Community. Of the known list there were questions of certain banners given to folk who clearly do NOT foster community and have zero interest in helping other players or doing anything for the community of GL's.

If the banner system is to be only a "status symbol" for the number of houses you can put in one area and has NOTHING To do with community involvement or betterment .... then well... I'd rather remove it and be done.

Now I know the Newcastle Banner doesn't see a lot of action.... but it's rather off the beaten track and as a member of the RP community using the banner near the Nameless Rune Library just off of Yew gate makes far more sense than having someone go to a banner in the middle of the woods somewhere near wrong.

So we are told our Shard "can't" have the former system because it doesn't work here... Yet we who are here are not allowed any input into the building of a system that would/could work... I find that to be sad. Other shards have been able to have meetings regarding the banner system... yet apparently the EM's and/or Messana feel that we are either not capable of having a civil discussion of it or that we have no right to have a say in the banner system. At least that is the impression that has been received.

When last I heard we would get a meeting and discussion of the banner system... granted that was several months ago... But I guess no one bothered to let us know.

If I seem upset about it's because I am. I guess what I would like now is some sort of consistency in the banner system .... and not just for GL's... but for ALL shards. I'd also like to see the banner system foster community. It has incredible potential to build communities and bring folk together and help one another... but it also has great potential for creating some bitterness and resentment.

I for one would like to see more community oriented things added to the game..... things that foster community, the individuality of the shards, or that memorialize places and people who've made a difference and are important to the shard, and the uniqueness of each community on those shards... but in and EQUAL and FAIR manner.

What I DO NOT want is to turn the whole thing into a B**** fest... or a long bickering contest... I also do NOT want to hurt the EM program in ANY way because I believe that the EM program is one of the BEST things to come out of UO in a LONG, LONG time...

Now I've said my peace ......

 

[EM Elizabella]

This is our meeting. This is the best format in which to have this discussion. Everyone can read what others wrote and think carefully about what they'd like to say, rather than trying to catch up in the journal. It also allows those who might not be able to be there on a particular day and time to participate.

This town recognition system is equal and fair. Each town must meet the exact same standards. I may add more rules if they become necessary or if I see a good one suggested. I won't loosen these rules though.

Activity
The town must be active. The banners are to link existing towns, not to memorialize towns of the past. A town may show that it is active in any of several ways, such as being connected with a large guild, holding regular town meetings, or hosting frequent events, such as games, hunts, or auctions.

Community is a contentious concept in this context and difficult to define. Malag, you say that banners were given to towns that don't foster community. I'd say that they do a lot for their respective communities. Not everyone is part of the same community; people value different things.

 

[EM Malachi]

I seriously doubt banners are a pain in the ass. From a technical perspective, yeah, it requires Mesanna to log in and build the thing, and from time to time, the building is difficult. But I suspect that Mesanna enjoys putting them together...

This theme is very common in this thread, and I've noticed it come up before. It is one of the things that bothers me a great deal. Please don't trivialize Mesanna and Elizabella's work when it comes to banners. It's easy to decide that work someone else does takes little time or is pure fun.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

This theme is very common in this thread, and I've noticed it come up before. It is one of the things that bothers me a great deal. Please don't trivialize Mesanna and Elizabella's work when it comes to banners. It's easy to decide that work someone else does takes little time or is pure fun.

There is a difference between trivializing something and indicating that I don't think it's a "pain in the ass." It is definitely not my intention to trivialize anything. I have said in multiple places at multiple times that I appreciate the work that is done, and expressed my appreciation for the banner system. If there is a belief that I am attempting to trivialize the work that either of them does, I apologize. I do, sincerely, hope that Mesanna does enjoy putting the banners together. I know that in her position that I would, and I suspect, though it's my opinion only, that part of the birth of this was because she saw an opportunity to put something constructive into the game.

My simple point is that if doing banners was such a pain, I don't think the program would have been implemented in the first place. Maybe it's not necessarily "fun," but I would hope that both Mesanna and Elizabella would take pride in the fact that they're helping to enhance community, and in what they do for the game.

Also, I've never indicated that the process was a quick one or that it took little time. I know I've expressed on many occasions that I doubt the EMs or Mesanna are paid enough for what they contribute to the game or the community at large. I still stand beside that.

As for how I can both express this and be expressing my other sentiments in this thread, again, my stance is that the rules changed on Great Lakes without need and have become exclusionary to the point of leaving out potential. While we're presently having a discussion about it, it's pretty clear that it's set in stone at this point, which is sort of why I would have preferred that the aforementioned meeting about it all would have involved the community.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

This town recognition system is equal and fair. Each town must meet the exact same standards. I may add more rules if they become necessary or if I see a good one suggested. I won't loosen these rules though.

Then, with respect, may I suggest that you create a specific exception category? And I do mean a defined one, not just a "hey, I can fit this exception rule." I'm a bit groggy on my way to bed after having spent an evening with my nephew in the ER, so I apologize for not giving a full-fledged "rule" here, but let me explain the gist of it and perhaps it can be discussed, and something solid come out of it.

My suggestion would be along the line of an organization or establishment that can show a particular length of public activity (auctions, hunts, fight clubs, arenas, whatever) that can show a history (I'll throw in an arbitrary six months) of holding events in a particular location or that begin at a specific location, and that are attended by a significant number of the shard's "community" (by this, I basically mean "players of the game", and I'd suggest a minimum of 20 people) may apply for a banner.

While I understand that you're trying to avoid the "I've done something, give me a banner," I think that were a Kazola's or a Cove Merchant's Guild or a Red Devil's Auction House or an MOA or a CFC or a LotF Crusade or whatever could show a pattern of providing entertainment to the public that it should be worthy of what a banner represents. Yes, I know they would already have the respect and appreciation of the players who attend, but the reason I feel strongly about this is because the banner network helps people who may be new to the shard as well as people new to the game to potentially find sources of enjoyment unique to the shard.

Anyhow, it's just sort of my rambling thought at the moment, and certainly could use work... I just feel very strongly about not closing the door on important institutions that may not meet that geographical requirement.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

With regards the Grove, you seem to not realize something critical. You seem to assume that the only path which could have led you to not request the banner be torn down was the path of, "well, I've already got mine, no need to worry."

And I say, there was another path which also led to your not making that request: The path which said, "maybe the Grove's banner isn't exclusively mine."

I have never indicated that I felt that I had only one path I could have taken. I took the one that felt the most logical to take. It may not be the one that fits your logic, but it did mine.

As for whether I have ever felt that Compassion Grove's banner is exclusively mine, I've never even so much as referred to the Compassion Grove banner as "my banner." I don't even tend to refer to Compassion Grove as mine. In the grand scheme of things, you're fairly new to the history of the Grove and the Council, so I will simply have to ask you to believe that when Compassion Grove was founded, and for every month and year that has followed, that area has been and continues to be community property.

Which will lead to the logical question, "If that's how you feel, and the banner belongs to the Community, why did you ask for it to be removed without consulting the Community that it represents first?"

To which I can only respond, I didn't really believe it would be necessary to do so. Very rarely does anyone have an opinion about what I do in and around Compassion Grove aside from the obvious internal aspects of roleplay. I've already said that perhaps the decision was in haste, but it's rather late for me to un-ring that particular bell, and I certainly could not do so without looking like a hypocrite or falling into the "he did it as a bluff" category, and so, as I say, I'm not going to do so.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

There is a difference between trivializing something and indicating that I don't think it's a "pain in the ass." It is definitely not my intention to trivialize anything. I have said in multiple places at multiple times that I appreciate the work that is done, and expressed my appreciation for the banner system. If there is a belief that I am attempting to trivialize the work that either of them does, I apologize. I do, sincerely, hope that Mesanna does enjoy putting the banners together. I know that in her position that I would, and I suspect, though it's my opinion only, that part of the birth of this was because she saw an opportunity to put something constructive into the game.

My simple point is that if doing banners was such a pain, I don't think the program would have been implemented in the first place. Maybe it's not necessarily "fun," but I would hope that both Mesanna and Elizabella would take pride in the fact that they're helping to enhance community, and in what they do for the game.

Also, I've never indicated that the process was a quick one or that it took little time. I know I've expressed on many occasions that I doubt the EMs or Mesanna are paid enough for what they contribute to the game or the community at large. I still stand beside that.

As for how I can both express this and be expressing my other sentiments in this thread, again, my stance is that the rules changed on Great Lakes without need and have become exclusionary to the point of leaving out potential. While we're presently having a discussion about it, it's pretty clear that it's set in stone at this point, which is sort of why I would have preferred that the aforementioned meeting about it all would have involved the community.

If you mean an in-game meeting, I've been to enough of those to tell you that they are pointless. A non-starter. There is a 100% chance it will consist largely of griefing, asking for items, threats, and complaining "why aren't they responding to my comment" when the answer is that the scroll is too fast to read.

I actually read your statement as trivializing the work also; look at the context and it's fairly easy to see why we thought that. I based my own statement, about the banners being a pain in the ass, on the drama the program's caused and on the thread on the EM site during the last round of drama prior to now, wherein numerous problems were described, in at least one instance causing Mesanna to have to redesign a banner on the fly because the original design proved un-doable.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I have never indicated that I felt that I had only one path I could have taken. I took the one that felt the most logical to take. It may not be the one that fits your logic, but it did mine.

As for whether I have ever felt that Compassion Grove's banner is exclusively mine, I've never even so much as referred to the Compassion Grove banner as "my banner." I don't even tend to refer to Compassion Grove as mine. In the grand scheme of things, you're fairly new to the history of the Grove and the Council, so I will simply have to ask you to believe that when Compassion Grove was founded, and for every month and year that has followed, that area has been and continues to be community property.

Which will lead to the logical question, "If that's how you feel, and the banner belongs to the Community, why did you ask for it to be removed without consulting the Community that it represents first?"

To which I can only respond, I didn't really believe it would be necessary to do so. Very rarely does anyone have an opinion about what I do in and around Compassion Grove aside from the obvious internal aspects of roleplay. I've already said that perhaps the decision was in haste, but it's rather late for me to un-ring that particular bell, and I certainly could not do so without looking like a hypocrite or falling into the "he did it as a bluff" category, and so, as I say, I'm not going to do so.

I agree you never said it was exclusively yours. I never said you said that.

You have, however, behaved that way. Your own post backs up this narrative quite unambiguously. "To which I can only respond, I didn't really believe it would be necessary to do so."

*shrugs*

Oh well.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Then, with respect, may I suggest that you create a specific exception category? And I do mean a defined one, not just a "hey, I can fit this exception rule." I'm a bit groggy on my way to bed after having spent an evening with my nephew in the ER, so I apologize for not giving a full-fledged "rule" here, but let me explain the gist of it and perhaps it can be discussed, and something solid come out of it.

My suggestion would be along the line of an organization or establishment that can show a particular length of public activity (auctions, hunts, fight clubs, arenas, whatever) that can show a history (I'll throw in an arbitrary six months) of holding events in a particular location or that begin at a specific location, and that are attended by a significant number of the shard's "community" (by this, I basically mean "players of the game", and I'd suggest a minimum of 20 people) may apply for a banner.

While I understand that you're trying to avoid the "I've done something, give me a banner," I think that were a Kazola's or a Cove Merchant's Guild or a Red Devil's Auction House or an MOA or a CFC or a LotF Crusade or whatever could show a pattern of providing entertainment to the public that it should be worthy of what a banner represents. Yes, I know they would already have the respect and appreciation of the players who attend, but the reason I feel strongly about this is because the banner network helps people who may be new to the shard as well as people new to the game to potentially find sources of enjoyment unique to the shard.

Anyhow, it's just sort of my rambling thought at the moment, and certainly could use work... I just feel very strongly about not closing the door on important institutions that may not meet that geographical requirement.

At least two of the places you mentioned were granted banners under the old system, and were mentioned as examples of "they have one, why can't I." I see zero chance the same thing wouldn't happen again.

Now, again, in an ideal world such a more-subjective would work fine, because no one would resent it when they didn't get one. I've been, I think, clear on this point. I would not mind one bit if the banner program were a good citizenship/community award, but such a thing is not sustainable. We've seen this. Sad, but true. We can't have nice things.

-Galen's player

 

[PASmountaindew]

Hey folks lets keep this thread on topic and let's stop the bickering between each other. I have no problem removing the posts that violate the rule "Content Detrimental to Community".

 

[MalagAste]

This is our meeting. This is the best format in which to have this discussion. Everyone can read what others wrote and think carefully about what they'd like to say, rather than trying to catch up in the journal. It also allows those who might not be able to be there on a particular day and time to participate.

This town recognition system is equal and fair. Each town must meet the exact same standards. I may add more rules if they become necessary or if I see a good one suggested. I won't loosen these rules though.

Activity
The town must be active. The banners are to link existing towns, not to memorialize towns of the past. A town may show that it is active in any of several ways, such as being connected with a large guild, holding regular town meetings, or hosting frequent events, such as games, hunts, or auctions.

Malag, you say that banners were given to towns that don't foster community. I'd say that they do a lot for their respective communities. Not everyone is part of the same community; people value different things.

I understand not everyone is part of the same community and I don't want to name names or point fingers as that is NOT my intent... so I'll not say another word on that... but I will say this... it was SUCH a widespread upheaval that I heard about it as far off as Test Center... and while I don't think of myself as any big public figure or anything typically other folk seem to as they tell me things whenever I run into them as if I'm some person of importance or some such.... I'm often told things by complete strangers and asked to pass them along to DEV's or EM's or what have you. Possibly because I'm very outspoken and I do tend to attend MANY functions. However that said much ire was imparted to me about the Banner System... including ire about the Newcastle Banner.

But I feel those who do their best to destroy, break down, disrupt, grief and outright ridicule most every other event or function on the shard should NEVER be considered for a banner and giving a banner to such a group is a HUGE SLAP in the face of community and those who work to build a community and the community will NOT be pleased. It's like rewarding the class clown for destroying the learning process... Or giving a murderer or a thief a prize for what they do... Telling them that the behavior is socially acceptable even, which it is clearly NOT.

That is my final peace I'll give that matter.


*PS* as far as not memorializing old towns or what have you that's too bad and I'm sorry to hear that... because it's that history and all that makes a shard Unique... I have seen memorial's placed for many things here and there on many other shards... even for players. It would be sad to think that things that helped to shape the shard and give it a lasting memory could not be memorialized in some way..... probably not with a banner.... but in some way. Much like the EM Hall you all work on to preserve your own legacy and the legacy of those who participate in the Great Lakes EM program... it's history that ought to be recognized and preserved.... much like the Museum that was moved to Nu'Jelm...

 

[RaDian FlGith]

At least two of the places you mentioned were granted banners under the old system, and were mentioned as examples of "they have one, why can't I." I see zero chance the same thing wouldn't happen again.

I know there was a wide, varied history on the old Blessed Establishments as well... of course, the game world was a lot different back then too. Most -- if not all -- were blessed before the addition of lock-downs. And, at least here on Great Lakes, regardless of the accusations of favoritism in the program, I can't actually think of one blessed establishment that didn't go a long way to prove worth both in terms of being a centralized community gathering spot and in terms of adding some sort of community value to the game. Red Devil's was the premiere auction spot in a day long before MOA; Cove Merchant Guild was a place you could go and be fairly assured a crafter would be there to craft goods to your order -- long before vendors and everyone having a crafter alt; Kazola's was a rather neutral gathering spot where not only RPers but tons of people came to sit back, talk, and enjoy a relaxing time -- not that there weren't any fights ever, but, you know, it was also Felucca before Trammel existed; the Temple of Mondain was a source of true evil roleplay. In all of this, I know of two or three towns. One, I can't remember the name of, but was on the road east out of Britain, and somewhere in the west of Red Devil's... it was there and gone in a flash, it seemed, for one day there were road signs leading there, and then it was gone. Tar Valon, the one I saw many times, was the only city I saw that was established very well, had all kinds of buildings with many functions, and which regularly was at the heart of something. Oh, and I suppose I'd be remiss in leaving out the Mage Tower.

At any rate, yes, I understand the typical "he's got, I want" attitude that pervades the game, and while it's sad, it also is unlikely to go away until humanity itself grows up a bit. That said, the primary focus of the old Blessed Establishments, like the original introduction of the Banner system, was to foster community.

 

[EM Elizabella]

On the blessed establishment program, I want to clarify something.....The old blessed establishment program was harmed by accusations of favoritism. Whether or not the accusations were true I honestly never looked into. I used to give those accusations a lot of credence, but seeing similar things said now, about the banner program, when they are clearly not warranted, I am now not so sure. I wonder if maybe the blessed establishment controversy was mostly just that as well.

QFT. I'm surprised at how few people it takes to start such rumors and disheartened at how easily people believe them. Ah well, as the saying goes, "a lie travels halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on."

 

[EM Elizabella]

Then, with respect, may I suggest that you create a specific exception category?

I hope your nephew is feeling better.

Thank you for the suggestion, but that won't be possible. As I said, the current rules are a minimum. I like and respect the people who run MOA, CFC, and LotF. However, it is necessary on GL for the rules to be as objective as possible and the house rule is an important part of that.

I have seen memorial's placed for many things here and there on many other shards...

There are memorials for players who have passed away in real life. On Great Lakes, there's a memorial near Zento to Tami of -Y- and in GOF Valley to Cervantes of GOF. Here is our page about memorials. Also, there is an open-air tavern where Kazola's Treetop Keg and Winery used to stand.

 

[MalagAste]

I hope your nephew is feeling better.

Thank you for the suggestion, but that won't be possible. As I said, the current rules are a minimum. I like and respect the people who run MOA, CFC, and LotF. However, it is necessary on GL for the rules to be as objective as possible and the house rule is an important part of that.



There are memorials for players who have passed away in real life. On Great Lakes, there's a memorial near Zento to Tami of -Y- and in GOF Valley to Cervantes of GOF. Here is our page about memorials. Also, there is an open-air tavern where Kazola's Treetop Keg and Winery used to stand.

I still stand by my conviction that I think the new rules stink.

And what I said about it all. And I think it's a LOSS for the community... but then of late I have to agree with others in saying that community and GL's can't go together... as there are far too many on GL's that think NOTHING of the community... And could care less about it.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I hope your nephew is feeling better.

Thank you. He is... turns out it was just growing pains or a muscle cramp or something, but it was sounding like a kidney infection the way he was describing it. At any rate, all's better. Thank you!

Thank you for the suggestion, but that won't be possible. As I said, the current rules are a minimum. I like and respect the people who run MOA, CFC, and LotF. However, it is necessary on GL for the rules to be as objective as possible and the house rule is an important part of that.

I guess I'll let go of it for now, mostly because at this point, perhaps everything's too close to whatever caused the rules change, and secondarily, there's nothing tangible to point at to demonstrate a lack in the system; it's all hypothetical at the moment.

I will definitely revisit this in the future if there comes a day when it does seem as though there's a gap that's being overlooked, and I promise to come here for public discussion. I appreciate your side of this and for coming here to discuss this with us. I'm not happy about the solid line, but it's also been pretty clearly discussed, and I definitely don't want this to spin on forever.

So in closing, thank you for the discussion, and thank you to you, Mesanna, Malachi, and anyone involved behind the scenes for bringing the banner system to the shards in the first place. I may feel it's limited in its current form, but I do think there are benefits to it for the game community at large.


Eek... and sorry for missing your event that's going on right now. I've got tons of family in town right now and am just taking a break to relax. Just realized what time it was... Sorry, and hope everyone has a great time!