Quite sensible approach, another MMOs approach to G15s, Nostromo, Naga's, etc.

[Lord Chaos]

I think I can see where there may be some confusion over our position on the use of hardware such as the Logitech G15, Nostromo or other programmable game devices. In actuality, our position regarding the use of these devices has never changed. It has always been against the rules when these devices are used to automate game play in a manner not possible through normal game play.

The best way to determine if how you are using these devices is a violation or not is by asking yourself “Can a normal keyboard/mouse combination replicate the same behavior?” If how you are using the programmable device can be done through a regular mouse/keyboard combination, then you won’t have anything to worry about.

There is a very distinguishable difference between using these devices to facilitate game play compared to using these devices to automate game play. We’re looking for and testing for the automation. If the character is found to be exhibiting behavior that cannot be replicated through the use of a normal keyboard/mouse setup, then the character is considered to be “botting” even if they are only using a programmable device like the Logitech G15 or Nostromo.

pretty neat, even if it is somewhat not enforceable in UO. Other than you can still not do things unattended, even with these hardware accelerates.

 

[Harlequin]

Yup, this is a very good and sensible approach.

And that's the exact approach that UO have been using



I am guessing that your concerns here are prompted due to the 3rd party app detection engine?

If so, there should be nothing to worry about.

Don't let the scaremongers frighten you. You know, those that go "this will be the death of UO", "uo will lose too many accounts because everyone cheats", "people using uoa/g15/nostro/naga etc will be banned" etc etc.

A lot of them are just cheaters using scare tactics in the hopes that legit players are naive enough to believe them and join their cause to stop anti cheating measures.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

I don't really understand however why a keyboard with additional macro keys that are developed for the soul purpose of multitasking macros that the games themselves implement are considered illegal. Or do the keyboards themselves offer macro programming that behave like bots?

 

[Lord Chaos]

Yup, this is a very good and sensible approach.

And that's the exact approach that UO have been using

Actually it isn't. You're allowed to automate everything as long as you're attended.

I am guessing that your concerns here are prompted due to the 3rd party app detection engine?

Nah, not really.

Don't let the scaremongers frighten you. You know, those that go "this will be the death of UO", "uo will lose too many accounts because everyone cheats", "people using uoa/g15/nostro/naga etc will be banned" etc etc.

A lot of them are just cheaters using scare tactics in the hopes that legit players are naive enough to believe them and join their cause to stop anti cheating measures.

Considering those are things I've said myself in different ways, then not quite. I find it somewhat amusing that people have nothing at all to back up the claim that any belief in such is "naive" and "wrong", you have even less numbers and are contradicted by almost every study of human history and MMO history.

The only thing thats really for debate is whether this will hit too hard and cause too many both cheaters and legits to quit, but thats a guess as it could go either way, but to say either way is a certainty is true stupidity.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I don't really understand however why a keyboard with additional macro keys that are developed for the soul purpose of multitasking macros that the games themselves implement are considered illegal. Or do the keyboards themselves offer macro programming that behave like bots?

They can act like very fast scripts and mimic some bot functionality. Like for instance in some cases you can key sequences of keystrokes, which will be executed faster than almost all people can execute themselves and even worse, it will be without fail.

These are much more powerful than scripts in most areas, as there will be a human intelligence guiding the combinations.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Anyway, the point of the thread is more that its a good idea to curtail the spread of these game changing devices, especially in the light of that no anti-cheating will ever be effective, because people will always thing the opponent is cheating if he's good at these devices.

 

[Harlequin]

Yup, this is a very good and sensible approach.

And that's the exact approach that UO have been using

Actually it isn't. You're allowed to automate everything as long as you're attended.

My bad, I equate the word "botting" automatically with unattended macro'g and scripts. It depends on what you consider "botting" to be. I consider botting to be intelligent scripts that can react to the environment more than what can be done via UOA/CC/EC, such as healing when a certain amount of health is lost, grabbing ingots from a chest when a crafter runs out, putting mined ore into a chest etc.

Regarding unattended macro'g - Just to clarify, macro'g is allowed. Simplest form is using a paper weight on a key. Unattended macro'g is not. There's actually a historical reason for this.

Scripts fall in the using unapproved 3rd party programs category unless it's done via an approved 3rd party app like UOA. Even then, for UOA to get approval, Tug had to removed the "play continuously" option. Using another program to make UOA continuously play a recorded macro is considered illegal.

Just to clarify, are you
1) supporting UO's current stand of allowing macro'g with programable keyboard/mouse/gaming hardware as long as it's attended

2) or are you saying it's a more sensible approach for them to consider folks to be botting even if they are attended as long as they are automating gameplay?

Don't let the scaremongers frighten you. You know, those that go "this will be the death of UO", "uo will lose too many accounts because everyone cheats", "people using uoa/g15/nostro/naga etc will be banned" etc etc.

A lot of them are just cheaters using scare tactics in the hopes that legit players are naive enough to believe them and join their cause to stop anti cheating measures.

Considering those are things I've said myself in different ways, then not quite. I find it somewhat amusing that people have nothing at all to back up the claim that any belief in such is "naive" and "wrong", you have even less numbers and are contradicted by almost every study of human history and MMO history.

The only thing thats really for debate is whether this will hit too hard and cause too many both cheaters and legits to quit, but thats a guess as it could go either way, but to say either way is a certainty is true stupidity.

I'm lost here, just to clarify - Are you saying that

1) it is not naive for legit players to belief scaremongers who proclaim that anti cheat measures will kill the game because everyone cheats and using gaming hardware will get them banned?

And that almost every study of human and MMO history proves that the above to be true?

So, your stand is cheating is good for the game and should not be stopped?

2) Or something else?

 

[Llewen]

This is actually in response to another post in a thread that was locked, but it fits here. I haven't read the entire thread so if I am just repeating some things that have already been said, my apologies.

Don't let the scaremongers frighten you. You know, those that go "this will be the death of UO", "uo will lose too many accounts because everyone cheats", "people using uoa/g15/nostro/naga etc will be banned" etc etc.

A lot of them are just cheaters using scare tactics in the hopes that legit players are naive enough to believe them and join their cause to stop anti cheating measures.

EA may some day indeed axe UO, but I don't think it is going to be any time soon, and I don't think it is going to be because the cheating monster was beaten into submission, or even because of a population decline due to the cheating monster being beaten into submission.

If anything UO's reputation as a haven for cheaters is bad for EA's corporate image and makes it more likely that they will shut UO down.

But here's a tip. If you cheat, now is the time to stop, and to learn how to play the game clean. I'm not talking about little things, like using a looped macro to stay connected (which you can do legally), or using the search sites, I'm talking about the big things like unattended scripted gathering of resources, or unattended scripting for quest rewards, or scripting in pvp.

There are those that are trying to scare you into thinking that all forms of "cheating" are equal. They are not. Using the vendor search engines is in no way, shape or form, on the same level as unattended scripted resource gathering, or scripting in pvp. Even the scripts that are used to support those sites aren't on the same level.

There are those that are clearly doing everything in their power on these forums to scare people into opposing Mythic's latest anti-cheat initiatives. People like them won the Punk Buster battle, don't let them win again.

They are very talented at mixing half truths and misinformation in with good information and truth. They are very good at pointing to a genuine fact, then twisting it's significance to support something that is often completely unrelated, or even diametrically opposed to the logical conclusions that would normally be drawn from those facts.

Keep your wits and your common sense in order. Don't let them scare you. Don't let them win. UO will be a much better, healthier game, with a much healthier and happier subscriber base, if the cheating monster is brought to heal. You can take that to the bank.

Yes other things need to be done, such as continued development, and proper advertising. Many good things are being done, and continue to be done. It is pretty clear and obvious that Mythic and EA are fully committed to the future of UO, and part of that clear commitment is a commitment to "clean up" the game, and make it a more fair gaming experience for the entire subscriber base.

Specifically with regard to programmable devices, again, use your common sense. If you use them to play the game for you, you have crossed the line. If you set up macros or use their scripting engines to create scripts that play the game for you while you are doing something else, you have crossed the line.

Having said that, for the most part there is nothing that these devices, even with their scripting engines, can do that compares to "the-program-which-shall-not-be-named". That program, and a few others, were created specifically for UO, and what they can do is well beyond the capabilities of the scripting engines that come with programmable devices.

And again, we come back to fear mongering. Don't let anyone fool you into equating these devices with "the-program-which-shall-not-be-named"*. These devices are legal, their functionality is legal, and devs have specifically stated that this is the case. Obviously you have to use your common sense, but those that are attempting to equate these devices with "the-program-which-shall-not-be-named" are trying yet another tactic to stir people up into opposing the third party cheat detection, and in general spread fear and confusion around the issue.

 

[Lord Chaos]

And so speaks the king of mis-information.

You're still trying to say that an ancient program that interfaces with a client and sends through it, (which inherently makes it slow) is in any way as fast or advanced as a keystroke macro from any hardware, which is such a blatant falsehood its not even funny.

Most serious PvPers have contradicted you, all you have is 1 story that appeared out of nowhere about this super PvPer, LOL.

Btw, one of the reason why the program which shall not be named is making a new version is BECAUSE THE OLD VERSION IS SLOW AND BUGGY

I recently watched one use a healing script of that program and it had a significant delay even set up as tight as possible on a fast machine. The only advantage it had is that it keeps track of everything, leaving you with more thought process on the actual PvP'ing over managing apples, petals, etc.

I also watched him get promptly pwned by another PvP'er because he had autohealing through spells on, so the other guy simply deadlocked him in getting stuck casting spells and he ended up crashing.

 

[popps]

And that's the exact approach that UO have been using

Has it been used ?

When ?

I have not noticed it.........

 

[popps]

paper weight on a key.

Use "paper" as a weight ?

Why would one want to use paper, which is on average very light and needs loads of it to reach a significant weight ?

There is many other materials which can reach more mass with less volume and thus, be more effective in adding weight on the small area space of a key........

Just confused.

 

[Pfloyd]

Use "paper" as a weight ?

Why would one want to use paper, which is on average very light and needs loads of it to reach a significant weight ?

There is many other materials which can reach more mass with less volume and thus, be more effective in adding weight on the small area space of a key........

Just confused.

Yes, you are. He said Paper weight not paper AS a weight
OMG do you think these things through?

 

[Kiminality]

You can fold a piece of paper, and wedge it down the side of a key to hold it down

 

[Green Mouser]

And so speaks the king of mis-information.

You're still trying to say that an ancient program that interfaces with a client and sends through it, (which inherently makes it slow) is in any way as fast or advanced as a keystroke macro from any hardware, which is such a blatant falsehood its not even funny.

Most serious PvPers have contradicted you, all you have is 1 story that appeared out of nowhere about this super PvPer, LOL.

Btw, one of the reason why the program which shall not be named is making a new version is BECAUSE THE OLD VERSION IS SLOW AND BUGGY

I recently watched one use a healing script of that program and it had a significant delay even set up as tight as possible on a fast machine. The only advantage it had is that it keeps track of everything, leaving you with more thought process on the actual PvP'ing over managing apples, petals, etc.

I also watched him get promptly pwned by another PvP'er because he had autohealing through spells on, so the other guy simply deadlocked him in getting stuck casting spells and he ended up crashing.

EA....Flag this user for delete and his friend where he does sleep overs and violates Policy with.

I dont care much for the cheat no cheat discussions. It has been around for so long I am numb to it. But it seems everywhere this discussion pops up you are its defender. Surely EA has you on their radar by now and if not shame on them.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I am a defender of the game, not cheating in and off itself...but as its been a part of the game for 13 years, then its really become one of the most consistent features of UO and its just a little too late. I played another game that tried to do the same thing and guess what, today its in ruins and cheating is worse.

I want them to concentrate on making the game better so its not so needed, to curb the worst of the cheats like duping, speedhacking, etc. and otherwise let the game run as it is.

Do I know people who cheat? Sure I do, though I am pretty sure that unless you play totally isolated, then so do you, you likely just don't know about it. It might seem all like mighty fun to get this, but when events, guilds and friendsships shatter, then the game will be a lot less fun.

And personally, I see no gain whatsoever out of this. Even if they were 100% successfull and UO survived, then it would still be a completely worthless change for me. Cheaters doesn't affect me in the slightest and I have fun in the game and I have had fun since 1998. I don't have much (apart from some semi nice plots), but its all good.

If I was some big time cheater/hacker, would it make sense for me to speak out so publically on this? That would be painting a huge target on my back.

 

[popps]

You can fold a piece of paper, and wedge it down the side of a key to hold it down

Well, I would not see this as a "weight".............. more like a "stucking device.

The way a paper stuck on a side of a key works, at least as I see it, is actually stucking the key.

A weight, instead, I see it as something with a "weight" (ahem.... goes without saying...) which works because of its, aheam, "weight".......

Paper stuck to block the key and a weight on top of the key basically get the same end result, i.e. the key not going back up again but get there in 2 different ways.

At least, that is how I see it.

 

[Llewen]

If I was some big time cheater/hacker, would it make sense for me to speak out so publically on this? That would be painting a huge target on my back.

There's no connection between your account and your Stratics account. What you post here doesn't affect you in game at all unless you've posted your character names.

As for Lineage 2, I very much doubt the problems it has have anything to do with it's cheat detection implementation, unless of course it just didn't work, which seems to be what you are saying.

Which of course raises an interesting problem with your logic. If the third party cheat detection didn't work, how can it's success possibly be to blame for the decline in player population?

As usual with you, it's all smoke, mirrors, and hot air. Yes we understand you don't like the new third party cheat detection. You have given your reasons, but based on your posting record I wouldn't take anything you have to say on the topic at face value.

 

[Lord Chaos]

There's no connection between your account and your Stratics account. What you post here doesn't affect you in game at all unless you've posted your character names.

There's many connections between my characters and my Stratics account. So it wouldn't take more than a second to connect. Not to mention, yeah, I've posted some character names before and some pretty unique and known.

But lol, why bother, some of us know why you're doing this. You're simply seeking to discredit me and make a diversion tactics to stop the devs from doing any anti-cheat measures in the EC.

As for Lineage 2, I very much doubt the problems it has have anything to do with it's cheat detection implementation, unless of course it just didn't work, which seems to be what you are saying.

Yes, it very much had something to do with that and it worked.

Which of course raises an interesting problem with your logic. If the third party cheat detection didn't work, how can it's success possibly be to blame for the decline in player population?

I didn't say it didn't work.

As usual with you, it's all smoke, mirrors, and hot air. Yes we understand you don't like the new third party cheat detection. You have given your reasons, but based on your posting record I wouldn't take anything you have to say on the topic at face value.

ROFLMAO, but that logic, your posts should definetly not be taken at face value or even be taken seriously.

 

[Llewen]

I played another game that tried to do the same thing and guess what, today its in ruins and cheating is worse.

Which of course raises an interesting problem with your logic. If the third party cheat detection didn't work, how can it's success possibly be to blame for the decline in player population?

I didn't say it didn't work.

If the cheating is worse now, it didn't work. You can't "have your cake and eat it too". You can't say it both didn't work, and it is to blame for subscription loss. Unless you are saying that subscribers left en masse because the promised anti-cheat solution did nothing to to fix the problem. That I could buy...

 

[Lord Chaos]

If the cheating is worse now, it didn't work.

It worked just fine, it stopped almost all cheats, but the hardcore ones persisted, took the challenge and defeated their constant new measures. People who once used the "soft" cheats, like automating soulshots and other menial irrelevant stuff had to download the hardcore cheats and that lead to more and more hardcore cheating as people learned this new powerful tool.

Eventually it meant that cheating became more and more apparent to the normal populace, not only had the game lost a significant subscriber base when the anti-cheat measurement went in, but they ended up losing even more as the situation spiraled out of control, as even their big dev team couldn't keep up with the hard core bot programs bolstered by a significantly larger userbase for said programmes.

And a whole host of other issues. Not that I am going to bother detailing this further, as its pretty clear that your goal isn't knowledge, its obfuscation and trolling.

 

[Tanivar]

Keep in mind a lot of UO's players are older, and getting older. The added features of some of those devices can make a lot of difference for an older player.

My big game problem is bad arthritis. I bought the naga 'button-monster' so I could use the extra buttons to cast spells and play using just one arm most of the time. Not having to reach for the keyboard macro keys with my left arm means playing the game involves less pain. A young player may not be able to understand the situation unless a parent or grandparent has arthritis or another movement hampering problem.

Got an older family member who sits unusually still? It's a quality I have that some people have thought very odd. I do it because it keeps the pain level lower.

UOA macroing was a lifesaver for me the past several years. Anything I can do to automate repetitous crafting mousing and button pushing is a winner for me. The crafting window changes adding automation was a real boon. The Devs made a pile of Brownie Points with me they'd have to really mess up bad continually for several years to use up.

I think attended macroing of repetious actions should continue to be allowed. As long as the player is required to make an occasional manual response to the game. The tools wearing out take care of that when using UOA.

Unattended macroing should be punished. The game is to be played, not run in the background while you do something else.

 

[Llewen]

If the cheating is worse now, it didn't work.

It worked just fine, it stopped almost all cheats, but the hardcore ones persisted, took the challenge and defeated their constant new measures. People who once used the "soft" cheats, like automating soulshots and other menial irrelevant stuff had to download the hardcore cheats and that lead to more and more hardcore cheating as people learned this new powerful tool.

In other words, it didn't work.

This is typical of your logic. Third party cheat detection isn't going to work, but it's going to destroy UO, but it won't accomplish anything, but it's going to destroy UO. That is called fear mongering and it's based on more than one logical fallacy.

There is the obvious contradiction in your logic that I've already pointed out. Then there is there is an assumed causal connection between the cheat detection, which didn't work, and a decline in subscriptions, when the true causes may be, and probably are, completely unrelated. And of course we are supposed to take your word that everything you say is true.

I'm assuming that even you wouldn't be brazen enough to state that subscriptions declined after the third party cheat detection was introduced, without it being true, but frankly we don't have anything concrete to back that up either. We don't know if they actually did decline, or if they did, by how much. We don't know if this was just a continuation of a larger trend, or whether there was actually a marked decrease after cheat detection was introduced.

We don't know any of that, because as per usual, you make grand sweeping statements, with no equivocation, and nothing to back them up. If you are going to make a charge that serious, that third party cheat detection is going to destroy UO, then you'd damn well better have something concrete to back up your statements, but you don't.

Fear mongering.

 

[Metalstorm]

Phew, I just got one of those Naga mouses and saw this.

I'm good. The keypad on the side of the mouse just fires off the macros that are set to my num pad on the keyboard. It does nothing that the keyboard doesn't except mess me up more due to the small, little button size.

It's a blessing on the rare occasion that I have to use the netbook which doesn't have a num pad due to it being an itsy bitsy little thing

Hmmm...I wonder if it's illegal to use it with the netbook because of it's lack of a num pad ??

 

[Kaleb]

I am a defender of the game, not cheating in and off itself...but as its been a part of the game for 13 years, then its really become one of the most consistent features of UO and its just a little too late. I played another game that tried to do the same thing and guess what, today its in ruins and cheating is worse.

I want them to concentrate on making the game better so its not so needed, to curb the worst of the cheats like duping, speedhacking, etc. and otherwise let the game run as it is.

Do I know people who cheat? Sure I do, though I am pretty sure that unless you play totally isolated, then so do you, you likely just don't know about it. It might seem all like mighty fun to get this, but when events, guilds and friendsships shatter, then the game will be a lot less fun.

And personally, I see no gain whatsoever out of this. Even if they were 100% successfull and UO survived, then it would still be a completely worthless change for me. Cheaters doesn't affect me in the slightest and I have fun in the game and I have had fun since 1998. I don't have much (apart from some semi nice plots), but its all good.

If I was some big time cheater/hacker, would it make sense for me to speak out so publically on this? That would be painting a huge target on my back.

Ever hear of Guilty by association? In a PvP guild all you need is a couple in a guild to cheat and everybody else can benefit from it. I removed my self from EA pvp just for that reason. If you know people who run scripts/hacks/exc exc in your guild and you continue to roll and fight with them that makes you no better than them.

 

[AesSedai]

Ever hear of Guilty by association? In a PvP guild all you need is a couple in a guild to cheat and everybody else can benefit from it. I removed my self from EA pvp just for that reason. If you know people who run scripts/hacks/exc exc in your guild and you continue to roll and fight with them that makes you no better than them.

- But no, cheating has no affect on you me him her or they... never does.

 

[Llewen]

Hmmm...I wonder if it's illegal to use it with the netbook because of it's lack of a num pad ??

It's not illegal to use it with anything. LC's just trying to scare you...

 

[Harlequin]

Use "paper" as a weight ?

Why would one want to use paper, which is on average very light and needs loads of it to reach a significant weight ?

There is many other materials which can reach more mass with less volume and thus, be more effective in adding weight on the small area space of a key........

Just confused.

I mean paperweights as in those little blocks of lead/metal or other heavy stuff that are used to hold stacks of paper down in place.

You seriously have not heard of these before?

 

[Harlequin]

Has it been used ?

When ?

I have not noticed it.........

All this time, before they have a 3rd party detection engine, whenever someone gets paged for suspected macroing, the gms don't just ban them straightaway. They bring them to jail and ask send a series of random questions to verify if the player is afk or not.

If the player proves he or she is actually there, they are released.

Some years back, a gold farmer got around this by having his 20+ (or was it 40+) macroing PCs use sms to communicate with his phone. Allowing him to carry out conversations with gms as if he was there whenever he was paged on.

Quite ingenious actually. But if the gms had asked "open the bag I just dropped on the floor and tell me what items are in it", he would have been so screwed.

With the 3rd party program detection engine, the gms should now be able to verify if the player is in fact using 3rd party apps.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

If you're not using text parsers and actually typing out full sentence commands you're CHEATING!!!!1!!11!!!11!!

*rolleyes*

 

[AesSedai]

- In other news (that's likely not so newsworthy)..
I finally installed my Nostromo n52 on my new (old now) pc. And I used some handy tips from our fellow posters here on UO Stratics to do some mining with the new client. Finally! After so many years I am actually enjoying a bit of perfectly legal mining again. This time I don't care if the cheaters have infinite ingots. I'm just enjoying something I liked, as long as almost 13 years ago, in UO (yes, getting rid of more cheaters will indeed further my enjoyment of this aspect of UO; because cheating indubitably affects everyone. Cheating is bad).