PvP changes...gargoyles

[Restroom Cowboy]

A while back gargoyles were going to have their swing rates altered. As things stand now a garg can hit for 27+ without expending any mana while swinging at above cap. Is there anything planned to fix this discrepancy? This is the equivalent of a explosion without scribe. Please be aware that this is an issue.

 

[puni666]

A while back gargoyles were going to have their swing rates altered. As things stand now a garg can hit for 27+ without expending any mana while swinging at above cap. Is there anything planned to fix this discrepancy? This is the equivalent of a explosion without scribe. Please be aware that this is an issue.

Yeah, now that throwing isn't broken anymore people are starting to see why 18-22 base damage on a 4s weapon is a little crazy. Mortal strike is pretty much paired with AI damage now. 5 hits from a 50% HCI 1.5 swing 80-90 damage ranged dexer is gross.... At least they can't ride tamed mounts ...

 

[Telen]

No they can't ride tamed mounts...

...but they can fly at mounted speeds. =P

 

[virtualhabitat]

They can fly completely silent at mounted speeds...

 

[AtlanteanAngel]

They can fly completely silent at mounted speeds with a cool wing-flapping animation...

 

[G.v.P]

Throwing does have a lot of damage output, but comparing throwing to a mage w/o scribe sort of doesn't make sense. A thrower has throwing, tactics, and anatomy all at 120, while a mage has magery and evalint at 120, plus 100 in scribe if they have scribe at all (20 less skill points). I haven't tested throwing lately, but if the new changes take place (40 SDI) then a non-scribe pure mage does around 27 damage with an explosion vs 70 resists, and 59 w/ a EXP/FS combo (+8). Add 100 skill and the mage will be doing over 60. Besides, all you have to do to a 2D client gargoyle is throw out a few chairs, and then their game will go out of sync ;D.

Seriously though, 26 @ 1.25 (1.50) is pretty nasty, and IMO swords lumberjack should have the highest melee/range dps in the game due to the investment in skill. I'd have to look at it because I haven't tested lumberjack post that RNG change for extra damage, but I'm going to assume throwing is wayyyyy too high when compared to archery, anat, tact (just from looking at the weapon bases alone) and most likely more effective than a swords lumberjack anat tact as well. Still, you have to also test a roach mage versus a thrower, since the roach is going to be viable again, but I agree thrower DPS is best in game right now (and I can hear the PvM cries if the chiv kill wasn't enough).

Edit: Just read they're changing SDI to 30 from 40. Okay, nerf throwing! rofl.

 

[Tinsil]

Let's compare throwing to archery.

Throwing >>>> Archery.

Throwings damage output is way too high in comparison to other templates. It's that simple.

 

[Mook Chessy]

Throwing has no disarm...no bleed, leave it the way it is.

Garg dexxer can not use 50% of faction items also Garg cannot go into animal form while flying...everything is a trade off.

 

[Cetric]

throwers hit SOOOOOO freakin often with 50hci, couple that with big damage, what appears to be faster mount/dismount, all the specs you need in 2 weaps, etc... throwers are nasty.

You want disarm/bleed, build a swords thrower and you get all that plus bleed walk... HAH

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

@ all

My point was that these were regular throws. These expend absolutely no mana. It makes sense to compare them to a high level spell considering the lack of mana needed to perform the attack. If you can show that the two share similar damage, it becomes clear that something is amiss and needs to be adjusted.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Throwing has no disarm...no bleed, leave it the way it is.

Garg dexxer can not use 50% of faction items also Garg cannot go into animal form while flying...everything is a trade off.

If you don't need to use specs, you can stay in animal form all day long with no need for flight.

What trade off?

 

[Tinsil]

@ all

My point was that these were regular throws. These expend absolutely no mana. It makes sense to compare them to a high level spell considering the lack of mana needed to perform the attack. If you can show that the two share similar damage, it becomes clear that something is amiss and needs to be adjusted.

Exactly. I'm not say nerf throwing hardcore or anything like that, but you have 1h weapons that don't need the balanced property doing more damage than their 2h archery equivalents, plus having a better chance to hit. A slight adjustment on the throwing weapons damage would probably be sufficient.

Side note: the leather gargoyles have is better than humans; you just have less choices for artifacts is all.

 

[Vexxed]

So Restroom Cowboy has also been playing on TC1 lately heh. I built the char your complaining about & it was a valid temp B4 the Pub 71. It's not so much the dmg output that's your problem, it's the fact that It's such a pain to kill. I doubt you'll come across many other's tweaked so finely. There are obvious counters to the Temp that work just fine. If you'd built it you'd know what they were. Anyway..... Something sooooooo simple shouldn't give ya problems.. No specs.. just regular hits For the Win!

Vok.

 

[Tinsil]

It's not so much that it's extremely overpowered.. but the weapons are 1handed and do more damage than Archery, as well as hit better.

I ran some #s on what a typical suit might have using UO Stratics Weapons list comparing weapons of the same exact speed.

Comp Bow: 13-17 damage and 31.14 DPS.
Elven Comp: 12-16 damage and 28.86 DPS.
Soul Glaive (1h): 18-22 damage and 41.43 DPS.

Alternatively, if you take a look at the 3s weapons, the cyclone wins out by about 13 DPS over the magical shortbow. Now it's kinda hard to factor in special adjustment, but the specials on all of the throwing weapons are basically perfect, so throwing would win out there anyways.

 

[Saint of Killers]

Rock/paper/scissors.

Throwing weps also cannot have double hit spell bows like archers can (40+ veloc/40+ fireball or lightning).

I fought that guy on test with my dexxer. It was funny. He sat in wolf form using no specials. Nice damage. It made me want to "set skill necro 600/set skill ss 1200" so I could blood oath and laugh as he'd run away disarming himself.

 

[puni666]

Rock/paper/scissors.

Throwing weps also cannot have double hit spell bows like archers can (40+ veloc/40+ fireball or lightning).

I fought that guy on test with my dexxer. It was funny. He sat in wolf form using no specials. Nice damage. It made me want to "set skill necro 600/set skill ss 1200" so I could blood oath and laugh as he'd run away disarming himself.

You can only blood oath one thrower at a time though .

 

[Saint of Killers]

You can only blood oath one thrower at a time though .

That's alright, I know you'll take care of the second one on me.

 

[puni666]

Seriously though, 26 @ 1.25 (1.50) is pretty nasty, and IMO swords lumberjack should have the highest melee/range dps in the game due to the investment in skill. I'd have to look at it because I haven't tested lumberjack post that RNG change for extra damage, but I'm going to assume throwing is wayyyyy too high when compared to archery, anat, tact (just from looking at the weapon bases alone) and most likely more effective than a swords lumberjack anat tact as well. Still, you have to also test a roach mage versus a thrower, since the roach is going to be viable again, but I agree thrower DPS is best in game right now (and I can hear the PvM cries if the chiv kill wasn't enough).

I think this is good to point out though. All this skill investment compared to a thrower's investment for a much larger DPS is a bit odd. All a LJ gets is some logs and a thrower gets another 10 DPS (Not calculated).

 

[Tinsil]

Right. That was my point Saint, not that throwing is completely OP, but the damage discrepancy is rather large.

 

[Luke Carjacker]

I agree, damage output for gargoyles is a little high right now (and I'm taking advantage on a number of pvp templates). I think the way throwing was originally, with the .5s weapon return, was actually a balanced situation. But, a lot of people complained and nobody was using throwing so they went ahead and made the change.

For the time being, I'd say leave throwing as it is. The biggest difference, as people have pointed out, is that the arties available to gargs is not comparable to those available to humans and elves. Gargs can use glasses, and there are a few nice garg pieces, and base resists on garg armor are better, so it's not all bad. But gargs have no substitute for gladiator's collar, hunter's headdress (faction version is very nice in certain templates), marks of travest, fey leggings, and a number of other useful pieces. Also, gargs don't benefit from live mounts (especially useful for bushido masters) and while flying is nice you can get on a live mount faster (you have to keep it alive of course).

I vote no changes to throwing at this time, but keep it on the watch list as more garg arties are introduced.

 

[Vexxed]

@ Tinsil....


If you simply used the BASE DPS listed on Stratics Weapon page...

UO Stratics - Weapons

DPS #'s :
----------
ARCHERY:

Bow 4
Cop Bow 3.75
X-Bow 4.44
Elven Comp 3.5
Heavy X-Bow 4.4
Short 3.67
Repeater 3.64
Yumi 4
-----------

THROWING:

All Thowing Weps are 5.0 DPS

-----------

Once you Factor in Double Hit effects... Ash Wood Enhancement 10% SSI... & the option of Balanced property, I'd say it's fine.

 

[Tinsil]

Why do you see the balanced mod as a bonus? That makes ZERO sense. It takes up a huge amount of imbuing intensity, as well as the property itself, to do what throwing does for nothing (1h weapons).

Secondly, that is a pretty significant difference when you add in all the factors the damage is multiplied by to get the amount you'd do on a real char. Don't try to marginalize it by giving a char with no damage increase, 10 str, 10 dex etc.

Third, the damage including the 50% velocity is still below what a regular throwing shot would be with the equivalent weapons. Again, this also takes a property as well as imbuing intensities.

Lastly, the 10% ssi is a fair point, but that's essentially offset by the 5% greater chance to hit.

 

[Mook Chessy]

I agree, damage output for gargoyles is a little high right now (and I'm taking advantage on a number of pvp templates). I think the way throwing was originally, with the .5s weapon return, was actually a balanced situation. But, a lot of people complained and nobody was using throwing so they went ahead and made the change.

For the time being, I'd say leave throwing as it is. The biggest difference, as people have pointed out, is that the arties available to gargs is not comparable to those available to humans and elves. Gargs can use glasses, and there are a few nice garg pieces, and base resists on garg armor are better, so it's not all bad. But gargs have no substitute for gladiator's collar, hunter's headdress (faction version is very nice in certain templates), marks of travest, fey leggings, and a number of other useful pieces. Also, gargs don't benefit from live mounts (especially useful for bushido masters) and while flying is nice you can get on a live mount faster (you have to keep it alive of course).

I vote no changes to throwing at this time, but keep it on the watch list as more garg arties are introduced.

This!!!!

 

[Mook Chessy]

If you don't need to use specs, you can stay in animal form all day long with no need for flight.

What trade off?

A Garg will not kill an average PVPER without specials...even if you did get lucky, everyone runs and no moving shot in form.

 

[WarUltima]

Velocity easily offsets the higher damage throwing weapons have.
You can work out some math urself since I am semi-inactive rightnow.
Fine I will hint you with some proper math.
At 10 tiles velocity hits for about 10 damage vs all 70s.
50% of that is 5 damage, which is 17 before mitigation. Which is 100% of your base weapon damage for free.

2nd, the special combinations on most throwing weapons are stupid, and ineffective. eg AI/Moving Shot from comp bow and Dismount/Moving shot from HXbow, Mortal + Para from regular bow... archery weapon have premium special combos aimed for PvP. Throwing weapon you usually get to have 1 goodie with 1 meh.

3rd, HXbow is still the harddest hitting weapon in the entire UO. We all know the fact that dual proc HXbow can hit all 70s for 60+ damage, you can never do that with a throwing weapon. And in PvP, burst damage = win . Same reason why spell plague is powerful, same reason why people "waste intensities LOLOLOLOL" on having 2 hit spells, same reason why mages do Flame Strike even if Ebolt is 200% more mana effecient and only slightly weaker dmg, same reason is why LJ is somewhat viable and so on and hopefully you understand why burst = win in PvP one day.

4th. You cannot instant drive by 60 damage dismount (sometimes followed by all kill with very power pet(s)) and instant remount on whiff and try again in 2 second. Gargoyle dont insta-fly I am sorry, and their dismount are about 33% weaker AND will render the garg player in a disadvantage if he should whiff on dismount (or simply ****ed up on timing that toggle) because he is now perma footed to any semi-talented PvPer/Guild.

5th. Read 4th again, the majority of pvp (especially the most talented solo vs guild pvp pros) the victim die because of point 4 happened. Which is one of the main tactics many newb zerggy guilds used to kill more skilled individuals.

6th. Read 5 again, and you will know the loldismount gank tactics can be used by a stealthers for even more of a lameness.

7th. Now you read point 6 you can see how 60+ damage dismount (only achievable by archery using HXbow) => 40 dmg dual proc moving shot without switching weapon is valuable in PvP, especially its very newbie friendly.

8th. Again 60dmg Dismount->40dmg Moving Shot x N is much much better than 40dmg Dismount->Weapon Switch->Wait for weapon swing delay->25 dmg moving shot x N.

9th. With new Pub archery just got even more lively. What instantly comes to mind is the magic short's exceptional fire speed with 50 hit fireball with the new psychic attack... -30LMC & -30SDI??? GG Mages (and special spammers). With lighting arrow for added offense (you can achieve triple hit spell for 30+ damage from a capped speed 10 tile range weapon!). And forced arrow? The 1st ever direct counter to prot newbies.

10th. Throwing weapons do have its advantages. But I really dont see it being the one like you try to make it out to be. At least in PvP (and I dont give a crap about your PvM really), archery always has been and will most likely continue to be the choice of ranged dexers. Simply for the flexibility and the unbeatable special move combo available.

 

[WarUltima]

A Garg will not kill an average PVPER without specials...even if you did get lucky, everyone runs and no moving shot in form.

I dont care, if you somehow some way miraculously managed to die to "auto attack", you really shouldnt be PvPing. Might as well quit UO now.

 

[longshanks]

Velocity easily offsets the higher damage throwing weapons have.
You can work out some math urself since I am semi-inactive rightnow.
Fine I will hint you with some proper math.
At 10 tiles velocity hits for about 10 damage vs all 70s.
50% of that is 5 damage, which is 17 before mitigation. Which is 100% of your base weapon damage for free.

2nd, the special combinations on most throwing weapons are stupid, and ineffective. eg AI/Moving Shot from comp bow and Dismount/Moving shot from HXbow, Mortal + Para from regular bow... archery weapon have premium special combos aimed for PvP. Throwing weapon you usually get to have 1 goodie with 1 meh.

3rd, HXbow is still the harddest hitting weapon in the entire UO. We all know the fact that dual proc HXbow can hit all 70s for 60+ damage, you can never do that with a throwing weapon. And in PvP, burst damage = win . Same reason why spell plague is powerful, same reason why people "waste intensities LOLOLOLOL" on having 2 hit spells, same reason why mages do Flame Strike even if Ebolt is 200% more mana effecient and only slightly weaker dmg, same reason is why LJ is somewhat viable and so on and hopefully you understand why burst = win in PvP one day.

4th. You cannot instant drive by 60 damage dismount (sometimes followed by all kill with very power pet(s)) and instant remount on whiff and try again in 2 second. Gargoyle dont insta-fly I am sorry, and their dismount are about 33% weaker AND will render the garg player in a disadvantage if he should whiff on dismount (or simply ****ed up on timing that toggle) because he is now perma footed to any semi-talented PvPer/Guild.

5th. Read 4th again, the majority of pvp (especially the most talented solo vs guild pvp pros) the victim die because of point 4 happened. Which is one of the main tactics many newb zerggy guilds used to kill more skilled individuals.

6th. Read 5 again, and you will know the loldismount gank tactics can be used by a stealthers for even more of a lameness.

7th. Now you read point 6 you can see how 60+ damage dismount (only achievable by archery using HXbow) => 40 dmg dual proc moving shot without switching weapon is valuable in PvP, especially its very newbie friendly.

8th. Again 60dmg Dismount->40dmg Moving Shot x N is much much better than 40dmg Dismount->Weapon Switch->Wait for weapon swing delay->25 dmg moving shot x N.

9th. With new Pub archery just got even more lively. What instantly comes to mind is the magic short's exceptional fire speed with 50 hit fireball with the new psychic attack... -30LMC & -30SDI??? GG Mages (and special spammers). With lighting arrow for added offense (you can achieve triple hit spell for 30+ damage from a capped speed 10 tile range weapon!). And forced arrow? The 1st ever direct counter to prot newbies.

10th. Throwing weapons do have its advantages. But I really dont see it being the one like you try to make it out to be. At least in PvP (and I dont give a crap about your PvM really), archery always has been and will most likely continue to be the choice of ranged dexers. Simply for the flexibility and the unbeatable special move combo available.

i fricken love this guy. ur the best read in uo. give this guy the throne in britain.

 

[Viper09]

Velocity easily offsets the higher damage throwing weapons have.
You can work out some math urself since I am semi-inactive rightnow.
Fine I will hint you with some proper math.
At 10 tiles velocity hits for about 10 damage vs all 70s.
50% of that is 5 damage, which is 17 before mitigation. Which is 100% of your base weapon damage for free.

2nd, the special combinations on most throwing weapons are stupid, and ineffective. eg AI/Moving Shot from comp bow and Dismount/Moving shot from HXbow, Mortal + Para from regular bow... archery weapon have premium special combos aimed for PvP. Throwing weapon you usually get to have 1 goodie with 1 meh.

3rd, HXbow is still the harddest hitting weapon in the entire UO. We all know the fact that dual proc HXbow can hit all 70s for 60+ damage, you can never do that with a throwing weapon. And in PvP, burst damage = win . Same reason why spell plague is powerful, same reason why people "waste intensities LOLOLOLOL" on having 2 hit spells, same reason why mages do Flame Strike even if Ebolt is 200% more mana effecient and only slightly weaker dmg, same reason is why LJ is somewhat viable and so on and hopefully you understand why burst = win in PvP one day.

4th. You cannot instant drive by 60 damage dismount (sometimes followed by all kill with very power pet(s)) and instant remount on whiff and try again in 2 second. Gargoyle dont insta-fly I am sorry, and their dismount are about 33% weaker AND will render the garg player in a disadvantage if he should whiff on dismount (or simply ****ed up on timing that toggle) because he is now perma footed to any semi-talented PvPer/Guild.

5th. Read 4th again, the majority of pvp (especially the most talented solo vs guild pvp pros) the victim die because of point 4 happened. Which is one of the main tactics many newb zerggy guilds used to kill more skilled individuals.

6th. Read 5 again, and you will know the loldismount gank tactics can be used by a stealthers for even more of a lameness.

7th. Now you read point 6 you can see how 60+ damage dismount (only achievable by archery using HXbow) => 40 dmg dual proc moving shot without switching weapon is valuable in PvP, especially its very newbie friendly.

8th. Again 60dmg Dismount->40dmg Moving Shot x N is much much better than 40dmg Dismount->Weapon Switch->Wait for weapon swing delay->25 dmg moving shot x N.

9th. With new Pub archery just got even more lively. What instantly comes to mind is the magic short's exceptional fire speed with 50 hit fireball with the new psychic attack... -30LMC & -30SDI??? GG Mages (and special spammers). With lighting arrow for added offense (you can achieve triple hit spell for 30+ damage from a capped speed 10 tile range weapon!). And forced arrow? The 1st ever direct counter to prot newbies.

10th. Throwing weapons do have its advantages. But I really dont see it being the one like you try to make it out to be. At least in PvP (and I dont give a crap about your PvM really), archery always has been and will most likely continue to be the choice of ranged dexers. Simply for the flexibility and the unbeatable special move combo available.

Pretty much covers it.

 

[Lefty]

Ok I am not new to PvP, but would somebody explain to me what the heck is Dual Proc and what it consist of?

 

[puni666]

Ok I am not new to PvP, but would somebody explain to me what the heck is Dual Proc and what it consist of?

Bows can have velocity/ and another hit spell (lightning/fireball/etc.)

They're talking about if both Velocity and the other hit spell goes off.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Bows can have velocity/ and another hit spell (lightning/fireball/etc.)

They're talking about if both Velocity and the other hit spell goes off.

Doesn't one of the garg arties have a dual hit spell? I am sure it does, not saying it would or would not be good enough to use in actual combat but it is available....Or am I confused with something else?

 

[puni666]

Doesn't one of the garg arties have a dual hit spell? I am sure it does, not saying it would or would not be good enough to use in actual combat but it is available....Or am I confused with something else?

It's paired with Hit Harm which is completely idiotic because harm you have to be close range to deal good damage and velocity is the reverse of that. Both hit instantly also so you don't get the interruption like you would with velocity/fireball.

 

[WarUltima]

Doesn't one of the garg arties have a dual hit spell? I am sure it does, not saying it would or would not be good enough to use in actual combat but it is available....Or am I confused with something else?

Actually there's a gargoyle artifact with TRIPLE hit spell. But the number is too low to be useful also it's melee weapon. Being an arti means you cant imbue it around your suit. Are you talking about http://www.uoguide.com/Standard_of_Chaos ?

Again you still see way more archers than throwers in PvP. The only thing that throwing have it going is for pvm since their higher base damage gets a 300% boost instead of 100% compare to PvP. Also no need to buy ammo to farm ranged.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Actually there's a gargoyle artifact with TRIPLE hit spell. But the number is too low to be useful also it's melee weapon. Being an arti means you cant imbue it around your suit.

Again you still see way more archers than throwers in PvP. The only thing that throwing have it going is for pvm since their higher base damage gets a 300% boost instead of 100% compare to PvP. Also no need to buy ammo to farm ranged.

I did not quote you because I was not arguing with you. I was only talking about throwing weapon artifacts as that is the obvious point of the thread, I do not think throwing needs to be toned down although I have seen more throwing characters kill people than I have archers, but could just be the archers I see suck and the throwers I see are good, can't say for sure as I do not play as often as I would like.

I also stated I had no idea if it was a useful weapon or not since I was not sure =p