Please rethink Justice gaining

[Laura_Gold]

To gain in Justice, you have to kill someone who
1. is a murderer
2. is so good at killing, he has killed at least five people who did not want to be killed

1. Because of royal forged pardons, murderers are almost impossible to find these days.
2. Because of their skill, the few remaining murderers are incredibly hard to kill.

Here's a modest proposal: allow Justice virtue gains from any red-named creature. Obviously the brigands in Haven should give less Justice than the red-named super brigands in the fort on the road between Yew and Skara Brae.

 

[Laura_Gold]

Also note that this is more useful than the abuse that goes on for gaining Justice these days:
1. A person with two accounts uses a character from one account to kill a character on the other account enough to be a murderer.
He then uses the other account to kill the murderer repeatedly (every fifteen minutes).

2. Same thing, but abusing a friend's murderer character who just holds still and dies every fifteen minutes.

==
While you're at it, note that Spirituality gain is abused. You get great gains trying to resurrect a ghost who refuses to be resurrected.

 

[Smoot]

Since reds are somewhat obsolete now, i would say Justice should now be tied somehow to the VVV system.

 

[drcossack]

To gain in Justice, you have to kill someone who
1. is a murderer
2. is so good at killing, he has killed at least five people who did not want to be killed

1. Because of royal forged pardons, murderers are almost impossible to find these days.
2. Because of their skill, the few remaining murderers are incredibly hard to kill.

Here's a modest proposal: allow Justice virtue gains from any red-named creature. Obviously the brigands in Haven should give less Justice than the red-named super brigands in the fort on the road between Yew and Skara Brae.

Bolded first:

1) Yup. There are still a few, but they all show up as orange to you if you're in vvv.
2) Not necessarily. It just means they are better at pvp than you are, because they've put the time in. If you work at it, you can kill them. But it's always been like that.

With the scarcity of Reds these days due to the Royal Pardons (and the skill of the pvp'ers, especially compared to non-pvp'ers), people usually get their Justice gains from Red alts (a friend, guildmate, or their own on another account.)

As for your first two statements: No argument on the first one, but for the second, they could have just as easily gone red by killing afk chars. I know I've killed a few in Fel Blackthorn on multiple occasions, and they've given me counts.

Given how easy it is to gain in some of the virtues (Valor, Sacrifice, and Spirituality being the easiest), I don't see why some of them shouldn't be harder than others. Justice has always been the toughest to max out, unless you're willing to get someone to help you do it. And it should stay that way, IMO.

 

[Eric Ravenwind]

The idea of getting justice gains from red creatures/npcs is a fantastic idea. I'm all for this.

 

[Merus]

My thoughts:

1. Justice needs to remain pvp oriented.
2. Justice needs to remain Felucca based.
3. Justice needs better balance between gaining and using.

Perhaps somehow tied into the VvV towns... Maybe claiming an alter = same as killing a red.

 

[Lord Arm]

with the royal pardon not being a one time use, there are very few reds. it took away from a large part of the pvp experience for my friends and I. sometimes we would go out and kill murders and other times we would go out and murder some blues. now its not nearly as fun as before. all non vvv people have been royally screwed which I wont go into. people get justice by killing their other red char or other friends red chars on a house. people kill their other vvv chars to get points and build up leaderboards. it really is a joke. they also leave chars hidden in vvv towns all night for points, some have millions of points that have no kills and 0 sigils ect... Ive noticed many returning and new players quit. they want to pvp but have a hard with this vvv. everyone is a potential enemy, they really have no chance unless they join a large guild but many wont take them in. reminds me of wow. by connecting justice with vvv in towns, it would just add to the flawed vvv system where people will take advantage. what ever the devs do, wont matter to me without reds. my red will never be blue. ive posted about this a couple of times many months ago, good to see others see a problem with justice

 

[Grazz't1970]

For the record its 7 min between kills

 

[cazador]

We can't kill reds..make it easier! Hmm this seems to be the logic with all systems in UO now


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[BrianFreud]

Killing reds requires there to BE reds. It's not a question of making it easier; it's a question of making the virtue doable at all.

 

[TimberWolf]

come to fel yew most nights you see a red or three. Including mine! On Alt, Cats, GL,LS atleast...........

 

[TimberWolf]

My thoughts:

1. Justice needs to remain pvp oriented.
2. Justice needs to remain Felucca based.
3. Justice needs better balance between gaining and using.

Perhaps somehow tied into the VvV towns... Maybe claiming an alter = same as killing a red.

I like this much better then killing red healers in fel.......
but need to change how altars are claimed....no stealth

 

[Giggles]

I'm highly against changing Justice. Its one of the few things left fel specific that can be somewhat of a bother to gain. In my opinion its good that you need to put some effort into getting those 6 extra scrolls, masteries, and pinks. If any change is made at all, slightly increase the amount of justice you get from killing a red. Otherwise, please leave it alone.

The ability to gain extra scrolls equivalent to doing two full spawns at the same time is not something that should be "easy" to get. If you kill murderers... awesome! Here is your reward of double fel based items. If you can't find reds to kill admits your farming of scrolls... tuff.

 

[Giggles]

Oh, and maybe this whole argument should be used as another example of why reds are important to the game. Maybe its time the Dev's consider allowing town buffs in fel similar to the governor system. Instead of saying... "well reds are gone that sucks (bot not really)! now lets make the one thing that needs them more trammel friendly", we should instead be asking for reds to stop being denied character perks provided in the game.

If the VvV system provided the governor system buffs... you would again see reds everywhere.

 

[Merus]

I'm highly against changing Justice. Its one of the few things left fel specific that can be somewhat of a bother to gain. In my opinion its good that you need to put some effort into getting those 6 extra scrolls, masteries, and pinks. If any change is made at all, slightly increase the amount of justice you get from killing a red. Otherwise, please leave it alone.

The ability to gain extra scrolls equivalent to doing two full spawns at the same time is not something that should be "easy" to get. If you kill murderers... awesome! Here is your reward of double fel based items. If you can't find reds to kill admits your farming of scrolls... tuff.

I think your post ignores a couple key factors:
1. On many shards you can go weeks doing fel content and never see a red. Personally, I don't think that any players ability to gain in a virtue should be dependent on someone else's choice of play style.
2. Due to factor number 1, many have resorted to a dummy character in order to have a red to kill.

I would not want to see the ability to gain justice from killing reds removed, but I do think there should be an alternative for when they aren't that involves game play. It should carry risk, be pvp oriented, and remain fel based. I suggested alters, because it would force those who use that option to be orange (no blue protectors).

 

[cazador]

And shard mergers are stupid? I see almost monthly how there's "no people" for this that or the other thing. But nobody accepts change and won't give up their imaginary pixels for the vast majority's liking. Instead we get threads of how to make it less people oriented. It's so sad! Leave justice alone..if you can't find reds play shards that have them! Same argument myself and people get when saying there's not enough people playing! Play a more populated shard of you want your level 6 skilled focus or Knight of Justice. Stop playing dead shards so you can farm to your hearts content with no backlash!


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[Giggles]

I think your post ignores a couple key factors:
1. On many shards you can go weeks doing fel content and never see a red. Personally, I don't think that any players ability to gain in a virtue should be dependent on someone else's choice of play style.
2. Due to factor number 1, many have resorted to a dummy character in order to have a red to kill.

I would not want to see the ability to gain justice from killing reds removed, but I do think there should be an alternative for when they aren't that involves game play. It should carry risk, be pvp oriented, and remain fel based. I suggested alters, because it would force those who use that option to be orange (no blue protectors).

I seriously need to stop checking the forums before I have coffee lol. Please forgive me if the below response is somewhat hard to understand.

So first, the point of having justice is pretty much pure profit in a fel based situation. I'm sure there is some RP and lore behind it somewhere, but pure profit is what it is used for in modern UO. It can also be a virtue that gets you a extra 20+ mill per spawn you do, if you roll lucky with your scrolls. And a extra bunch of scrolls at Harrower encounters. It is the only virtue in this game that gives the wielder significant perks and profit.

Currently Justice is a pain to get, and rightfully so. I understand and appreciate the idea that your virtue shouldn't rely on other players, however this is a MMO. Several things about UO can be soloed, but the few things left that require interaction with other players should be protected. Now lets talk a little about the ability to kill a red with a alternate account. Number 1. Justice was fixed a while ago to where you can't just kill a noob red toon and gain any significant amount of justice. If you go make a noob right now, make it red, and start killing it every 7 minutes... It will take almost 45 minutes for you to get only one bubble of progress... Yeah, you might as well just run another spawn during that time.

Now recently I went on a kick where I transferred off a bunch of sampires to different servers to scope out the pvp situation. I was going to chain despise all day and see if anyone raided me. The first server I land on I realize I don't have a blue pvp character to protect myself with.... I'm going to be losing out on all those extra scrolls! So I make a blue, get on a second account and make a red, I start killing the red as a easy way out... and that's when I realized the above scenario. It was not even worth the time it would take to make myself knight of justice. So I started running spawns without a protector. It sucks for me, but if you think about it I wasn't willing to put the time into killing real reds and building up a real pvp protector. Therefore its good I wasn't rewarded with extra shinneys farming a server for scrolls.

Scrolls have been around 15+ years. What little value they have left comes only from people making new characters. Lets not make it even easier to flood the economy with scrolls gained from one person transferring around one account farming dead servers.

While I appreciate the idea of allowing Justice to be gained from VvV.... it is also no effort at all to claim some alters in a VvV town on a dead server I am just trying to farm. it should stay difficult to gain, and it should require some sort of skill and effort.

 

[Merus]

And shard mergers are stupid? I see almost monthly how there's "no people" for this that or the other thing. But nobody accepts change and won't give up their imaginary pixels for the vast majority's liking. Instead we get threads of how to make it less people oriented. It's so sad! Leave justice alone..if you can't find reds play shards that have them! Same argument myself and people get when saying there's not enough people playing! Play a more populated shard of you want your level 6 skilled focus or Knight of Justice. Stop playing dead shards so you can farm to your hearts content with no backlash!


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The reason this argument fails, IMO, is because it isn't a lack of players, it's a lack of reds. It isn't that there isn't pvp, it's that all the pvpers went blue/orange with the pardons. Personally I think it's great, but does means we need to look at systems that require reds, like justice.

 

[cazador]

The reason this argument fails, IMO, is because it isn't a lack of players, it's a lack of reds. It isn't that there isn't pvp, it's that all the pvpers went blue/orange with the pardons. Personally I think it's great, but does means we need to look at systems that require reds, like justice.

I don't disagree. But let's not fix justice. Make reds worth having. I still am red on most of my PvPers. But I also haven't upgraded my characters so I have no need for the town buff yet. Once I do I'll also be blue.


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[Lord Bishop]

Why not just train skills up to 40 in New Haven till you have 720 skill pts and then its worthwhile killing your red. Atleast thats what you seem to be saying the char needs 720 skill pts or do the need to actually have the skills maxed out? Either way its not hard to get to 7 100's.

 

[Giggles]

The reason this argument fails, IMO, is because it isn't a lack of players, it's a lack of reds. It isn't that there isn't pvp, it's that all the pvpers went blue/orange with the pardons. Personally I think it's great, but does means we need to look at systems that require reds, like justice.

OR we should look at the reasons of why people choose to stay blue, and balance the perks for both facets so we have reds again.

 

[Merus]

I seriously need to stop checking the forums before I have coffee lol. Please forgive me if the below response is somewhat hard to understand.

So first, the point of having justice is pretty much pure profit in a fel based situation. I'm sure there is some RP and lore behind it somewhere, but pure profit is what it is used for in modern UO. It can also be a virtue that gets you a extra 20+ mill per spawn you do, if you roll lucky with your scrolls. And a extra bunch of scrolls at Harrower encounters. It is the only virtue in this game that gives the wielder significant perks and profit.

Currently Justice is a pain to get, and rightfully so. I understand and appreciate the idea that your virtue shouldn't rely on other players, however this is a MMO. Several things about UO can be soloed, but the few things left that require interaction with other players should be protected. Now lets talk a little about the ability to kill a red with a alternate account. Number 1. Justice was fixed a while ago to where you can't just kill a noob red toon and gain any significant amount of justice. If you go make a noob right now, make it red, and start killing it every 7 minutes... It will take almost 45 minutes for you to get only one bubble of progress... Yeah, you might as well just run another spawn during that time.

Now recently I went on a kick where I transferred off a bunch of sampires to different servers to scope out the pvp situation. I was going to chain despise all day and see if anyone raided me. The first server I land on I realize I don't have a blue pvp character to protect myself with.... I'm going to be losing out on all those extra scrolls! So I make a blue, get on a second account and make a red, I start killing the red as a easy way out... and that's when I realized the above scenario. It was not even worth the time it would take to make myself knight of justice. So I started running spawns without a protector. It sucks for me, but if you think about it I wasn't willing to put the time into killing real reds and building up a real pvp protector. Therefore its good I wasn't rewarded with extra shinneys farming a server for scrolls.

Scrolls have been around 15+ years. What little value they have left comes only from people making new characters. Lets not make it even easier to flood the economy with scrolls gained from one person transferring around one account farming dead servers.

While I appreciate the idea of allowing Justice to be gained from VvV.... it is also no effort at all to claim some alters in a VvV town on a dead server I am just trying to farm. it should stay difficult to gain, and it should require some sort of skill and effort.

All you need to gain full justice off your noob is to get it skill capped... 5k worth of npc skill and he will take you all the way above knight.

Realistically that ship has sailed. People will continue to use that alternative without a change. Maybe that's fine. On low population shard it is currently easy to claim an alter... Primarily because there is little reason to be in the town. My proposal would at least provide a little more reason for people to go there and maybe generate a little extra chance for pvp.

 

[Giggles]

All you need to gain full justice off your noob is to get it skill capped... 5k worth of npc skill and he will take you all the way above knight.

Realistically that ship has sailed. People will continue to use that alternative without a change. Maybe that's fine. On low population shard it is currently easy to claim an alter... Primarily because there is little reason to be in the town. My proposal would at least provide a little more reason for people to go there and maybe generate a little extra chance for pvp.

The reason this argument fails, IMO, is because it isn't a lack of players, it's a lack of reds. It isn't that there isn't pvp, it's that all the pvpers went blue/orange with the pardons. Personally I think it's great, but does means we need to look at systems that require reds, like justice.

They do need to add more reasons for people to participate in VvV, but I don't think gaining justice is one of them. Requiring me to take a character to a town, to cap a alter, for that extra justice bubble I need to farm some scrolls, will not stimulate any extra pvp. The odds of me being found during that 5 minute window, even on a populated server is slim to none. And if I am discovered I will just wait a few towns and try to sneak it in there. I'm not going to fight for that bubble on a protector character that probably has no offensive skills what-so-ever.

As far as buying skills up to 720 for a red character, THAT should be fixed. Justice should be gained on how many counts and legendary skills a red has.

 

[Merus]

OR we should look at the reasons of why people choose to stay blue, and balance the perks for both facets so we have reds again.

You are correct, making being red a desirable play style rather than nothing but limitations might bring them back. An anti-virtue system with access to town buffs and such. Access to more content than just champs spawns. The list goes on.

I had red characters for the better part of 10 years. But today's UO just doesn't have a much of a place for them.

Another option (one I quite like) is to do away with murder counts entirely. Everyone is orange in Fel and Justice would be gained from combat in Fel.

 

[Giggles]

You are correct, making being red a desirable play style rather than nothing but limitations might bring them back. An anti-virtue system with access to town buffs and such. Access to more content than just champs spawns. The list goes on.

I had red characters for the better part of 10 years. But today's UO just doesn't have a much of a place for them.

Another option (one I quite like) is to do away with murder counts entirely. Everyone is orange in Fel and Justice would be gained from combat in Fel.

All you need to gain full justice off your noob is to get it skill capped... 5k worth of npc skill and he will take you all the way above knight.

Realistically that ship has sailed. People will continue to use that alternative without a change. Maybe that's fine. On low population shard it is currently easy to claim an alter... Primarily because there is little reason to be in the town. My proposal would at least provide a little more reason for people to go there and maybe generate a little extra chance for pvp.

The reason this argument fails, IMO, is because it isn't a lack of players, it's a lack of reds. It isn't that there isn't pvp, it's that all the pvpers went blue/orange with the pardons. Personally I think it's great, but does means we need to look at systems that require reds, like justice.

That would be a more reasonable solution. But I still hate the idea of them making reds even more useless. I would rather them balance that whole system before messing with justice.

 

[Thoronnar]

with the royal pardon not being a one time use, there are very few reds. it took away from a large part of the pvp experience for my friends and I. sometimes we would go out and kill murders and other times we would go out and murder some blues. now its not nearly as fun as before. all non vvv people have been royally screwed which I wont go into. people get justice by killing their other red char or other friends red chars on a house. people kill their other vvv chars to get points and build up leaderboards. it really is a joke. they also leave chars hidden in vvv towns all night for points, some have millions of points that have no kills and 0 sigils ect... Ive noticed many returning and new players quit. they want to pvp but have a hard with this vvv. everyone is a potential enemy, they really have no chance unless they join a large guild but many wont take them in. reminds me of wow. by connecting justice with vvv in towns, it would just add to the flawed vvv system where people will take advantage. what ever the devs do, wont matter to me without reds. my red will never be blue. ive posted about this a couple of times many months ago, good to see others see a problem with justice

This... this is the reality of UO. VvV is a freaking joke. I returned to UO after 5 years and have had the hardest time to adapt to the new PvP system, and I am about to give up. Specially the part that if you're orange you're screwed cause EVERYONE will kill you if youre not part of a massive guild. And then the whole VvV point system, and how easy it is to cheat. UO has become a big mess.

VvV is a joke. it is like, ok you want PvP? free for all!!!!. What's the point of being red now... really?

 

[GarthGrey]

Also note that this is more useful than the abuse that goes on for gaining Justice these days:
1. A person with two accounts uses a character from one account to kill a character on the other account enough to be a murderer.
He then uses the other account to kill the murderer repeatedly (every fifteen minutes).

2. Same thing, but abusing a friend's murderer character who just holds still and dies every fifteen minutes.

==
While you're at it, note that Spirituality gain is abused. You get great gains trying to resurrect a ghost who refuses to be resurrected.

Rushes off to work Spirituality before they change it

 

[GarthGrey]

I'm highly against changing Justice. Its one of the few things left fel specific that can be somewhat of a bother to gain. In my opinion its good that you need to put some effort into getting those 6 extra scrolls, masteries, and pinks. If any change is made at all, slightly increase the amount of justice you get from killing a red. Otherwise, please leave it alone.

The ability to gain extra scrolls equivalent to doing two full spawns at the same time is not something that should be "easy" to get. If you kill murderers... awesome! Here is your reward of double fel based items. If you can't find reds to kill admits your farming of scrolls... tuff.

Oh please, Knights of Justice didn't get there killing free roaming, controlled by someone else, reds....get off that weed you're smokin. meant in a nice way..

 

[cazador]

Oh please, Knights of Justice didn't get there killing free roaming, controlled by someone else, reds....get off that weed you're smokin. meant in a nice way..

My protector did however my protector is a deathstriker..so he really protects I never saw the point of having a protector that can't actually protect.


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[MalagAste]

Oh please, Knights of Justice didn't get there killing free roaming, controlled by someone else, reds....get off that weed you're smokin. meant in a nice way..

I don't even like PvP and I knew that. I don't know what people are thinking. So you don't have a friend with a red? Don't want to buy another account to kill yourself with? What?

Real thing is there aren't enough people standing about wanting to be killed? Or what? Probably because everyone is out doing the Turtle champ over and over and over all day long.

 

[Giggles]

Oh please, Knights of Justice didn't get there killing free roaming, controlled by someone else, reds....get off that weed you're smokin. meant in a nice way..

My weeds got nothing to do with this!

As a matter of fact, my protector characters that I use do get their justice from pvp. I usually do spawns with the intent of getting a fight, or raiding one from someone. Either way the protector character I use is one that also PvP's. That might be why I wasn't aware of the whole "buy your skills up to 720" trick people are using for noob red characters.

 

[Scott]

Good grief.. Half of you are arguing for the sake of arguing... Plain and simple...justice needs a revamp because VvV, pardons, even town bonus play against evening owning a red.

If you are telling everyone you have a red, then be open to the idea of helping someone gain justice by giving them a free kill.

Until a revamp happens:
I have a red. Free kill to gain justice if you need it - icq/pm me - 340493098


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[SlayerofBunnys]

Why not just train skills up to 40 in New Haven till you have 720 skill pts and then its worthwhile killing your red. Atleast thats what you seem to be saying the char needs 720 skill pts or do the need to actually have the skills maxed out? Either way its not hard to get to 7 100's.

Or just make your second account red a walking soulstone that comes complete with death sounds

 

[CovenantX]

Until a revamp happens:
I have a red. Free kill to gain justice if you need it - icq/pm me

lol Absolutely ridiculous, I wonder, How many hits have you gotten?

Anyway, if there was a way for red characters to benefit from governors trade deal buffs, there would be more reds around.
with a few additional bug fixes turning the guards off during VvV for real comes to mind. I'm sure there would be no problems playing red characters again... though it may be hard to find blues to kill to become red. =X