Pet MR problem

[afk]

I have been noticing my CU i've been using seems to be using a lot of mana with no apparent affect. However after doing some testing i came to the conclusion that it is his MR that is the problem. I kept checking his mana regeneration at 1,2 and three minute intervals(making sure he was at full health and not cursed before checking).

The amount of MR after repeated testing was consistently between 35-36 MR which was well and good except for a couple things:
1st- He has 30 extra MR from training
2nd-He has GM med and GM focus for an additional 15 MR
3rd-He has 280 int which i believe gives an additional MR for every 40 pts, so an extra 7 MR
Now this totals 52 MR which is 16-17 more MR than the 35-36 he currently is regenerating.

Now I haven't had time to check some other pets to get an idea of where he is losing MR from(assuming there is not a cap i do not know about), so has anyone noticed this with their pets or is there something i'm not aware of like a cap?

 

[Thrakkar]

Although there is no hard cap, mana/sec over MP is not linear. There are diminishing returns. At some point adding additional MR is completely negligible.

Here's the formula:
Mana Regeneration - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia

 

[Thrakkar]

One more thing:

2nd-He has GM med and GM focus for an additional 15 MR
3rd-He has 280 int which i believe gives an additional MR for every 40 pts, so an extra 7 MR
Now this totals 52 MR which is 16-17 more MR than the 35-36 he currently is regenerating.

You can't just "convert" or translate GM med, GM focus or INT somehow to MR. These are completely different things. Just look at the formula on UOguide in the link I posted. All those things factor in completely different to the final result, which is "mana per second".

 

[Slayvite]

And if you ever figure out how it all fits together would you please forward it to the Devs.....i'm sure they would be glad to see how one of their systems actually works....

 

[Thrakkar]

And if you ever figure out how it all fits together

Mana is regenerated over time. The speed we measure it is called mana per second, or short MPS.

There are 4 different factors, which determine the actual MPS:

• Mediation
• Focus
  
• Intelligene
• Mana Regeneration

The formula, which takes each of those 4 factors and calculates the actual MPS, you can find in the link i posted. It even has a calculator.

Now what else would there to be figured out?

 

[Maximus Neximus]

Just an FYI, the calculator only allows for a maximum of 168 INT. So to see what it is for higher amounts you'll have to do your pemdas.
This is assuming there isn't a cap of 168 for mr that I don't know about.

 

[afk]

The pet training website clearly states that you get 1 MR for every 12 points spent, however when using the calculator the average cost is 25.7 points per 1 MR. I tried using the formula as written but came up with 15.88 at 30(so assuming it has a problem with how it is written). So the actual numbers posted by the devs are untrue and to be honest i'm beginning to wonder how much, if any, of what was posted is true.

 

[Thrakkar]

The pet training website clearly states that you get 1 MR for every 12 points spent, however when using the calculator the average cost is 25.7 points per 1 MR. I tried using the formula as written but came up with 15.88 at 30(so assuming it has a problem with how it is written). So the actual numbers posted by the devs are untrue and to be honest i'm beginning to wonder how much, if any, of what was posted is true.

You completely lost me.

Yes, 1 MR costs 12 training points. At a cap of 360 points, this is a max. of 30 MR, a pet can get. This is mentioned on the Animal Training Page and this is 100% correct.

But which calculator & formula are you speaking of?
If you mean the ones on UOguide, I posted earlier, then you completely mixed something up. These DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with TRAINING POINT COST!!!
The formula is just for calculating MPS, no more, no less...

 

[Maximus Neximus]

Having GM Med and Focus, 30 MR and 370 INT and assuming that a pet is considered to have medable armor and does not actively meditate...

I came up with 15.94 mana per second. It seems high to me. But I don't care enough right now to triple check the math.

.2+100/200+(1)(100*3/400+370/400)(1)+[(100/2+100/4)*1/90*0.65+2.35]*(5.5-1)+1/10(5.5)

However, this also doesn't take into account diminishing returns. But it's possible that its accounted for in the formula. I don't know. But I do know that I don't like having to do algebra to play a game.

 

[Pawain]

Although there is no hard cap, mana/sec over MP is not linear. There are diminishing returns. At some point adding additional MR is completely negligible.

Here's the formula:
Mana Regeneration - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia

Sounds like you have the math ability down. I was looking at scroll costs.

Animal Training – Ultima Online

Here is what it says.

Increased Skill Caps

• Magery, Mysticism, Necromancy,
  Spellweaving, Chivalry, Bushido, Ninjitsu, Discordance, Poisoning 0.5x
  (110 magery will use 50 training points, 115 – 75 points, 120 – 100 points)
• Evaluate Intelligence, Spirit Speak 1.0x
• Focus, Meditation or Resist Spells 0.1x
• Wrestling or Tactics 1.0x
• Anatomy, Healing or Parry 0.1x

lets take wrestling for an example. It says its 1.0x Well it costs 200 points to put a 120 wrestling scroll on a pet. How does that gibberish show 200 points???

Here is the actual points required:

• Magery, Mysticism, Necromancy,Spellweaving, Chivalry, Bushido, Ninjitsu, Discordance
  (105 Magic scroll will use 25 training points, 110 Magic will use 50 training points, 115 – 75 points, 120 – 100 points)

• Focus, Meditation or Resist Spells - (105 costs 5 points, 110 costs 10 points, 115 cost 15 points 120 costs 20 points)

• Wrestling or Tactics - (105 costs 50 points, 110 costs 100 points, 115 cost 150 points, 120 costs 200 points)

• Anatomy, Healing or Parry - (105 costs 5 points, 110 costs 10 points, 115 cost 15 points 120 costs 20 points)

• I can not calculate those values with their formulas. Maybe you can.,

 

[Khaelor]

Increased Skill Caps

• Focus, Meditation or Resist Spells 0.1x
• Wrestling or Tactics 1.0x

lets take wrestling for an example. It says its 1.0x Well it costs 200 points to put a 120 wrestling scroll on a pet. How does that gibberish show 200 points???

Here is the actual points required:

• Focus, Meditation or Resist Spells - (105 costs 5 points, 110 costs 10 points, 115 cost 15 points 120 costs 20 points)

• Wrestling or Tactics - (105 costs 50 points, 110 costs 100 points, 115 cost 150 points, 120 costs 200 points)

• I can not calculate those values with their formulas. Maybe you can.,

As an example, Wrestling at 1.0 weight is per gain. 100-120 is 200 gains (.1 per gain) 1.0 weight per .1 gain= 200 points.
Focus at .1 weight is .1 "imbue" points for .1 of gain. .1 x 200 = 20 points.

 

[Pawain]

As an example, Wrestling at 1.0 weight is per gain. 100-120 is 200 gains (.1 per gain) 1.0 weight per .1 gain= 200 points.
Focus at .1 weight is .1 "imbue" points for .1 of gain. .1 x 200 = 20 points.

Ok it is correct but I dont think of it in .1s....

 

[Maximus Neximus]

Ok it is correct but I dont think of it in .1s....

Formulas and all that...

 

[Khaelor]

Ok it is correct but I dont think of it in .1s....

tenths of points is how skills are done in game though!

The whole game just comes down to a whole bunch of (icky) math equations.

 

[Thrakkar]

Sounds like you have the math ability down. I was looking at scroll costs.

Animal Training – Ultima Online

Here is what it says.

Increased Skill Caps

• Magery, Mysticism, Necromancy,
  Spellweaving, Chivalry, Bushido, Ninjitsu, Discordance, Poisoning 0.5x
  (110 magery will use 50 training points, 115 – 75 points, 120 – 100 points)
• Evaluate Intelligence, Spirit Speak 1.0x
• Focus, Meditation or Resist Spells 0.1x
• Wrestling or Tactics 1.0x
• Anatomy, Healing or Parry 0.1x

lets take wrestling for an example. It says its 1.0x Well it costs 200 points to put a 120 wrestling scroll on a pet. How does that gibberish show 200 points???

Here is the actual points required:

• Magery, Mysticism, Necromancy,Spellweaving, Chivalry, Bushido, Ninjitsu, Discordance
  (105 Magic scroll will use 25 training points, 110 Magic will use 50 training points, 115 – 75 points, 120 – 100 points)

• Focus, Meditation or Resist Spells - (105 costs 5 points, 110 costs 10 points, 115 cost 15 points 120 costs 20 points)

• Wrestling or Tactics - (105 costs 50 points, 110 costs 100 points, 115 cost 150 points, 120 costs 200 points)

• Anatomy, Healing or Parry - (105 costs 5 points, 110 costs 10 points, 115 cost 15 points 120 costs 20 points)

• I can not calculate those values with their formulas. Maybe you can.,

I was and still am under the impression that the OP is talking about mana regeneration. And the formulas I provided were exactly about that. So my math ability definitely isn't down.
And why exactly are we talking about pet training costs now in this thread?

 

[Ford Taunus]

Cu spam bleed (Uses super lot mana) and makes it useless pet IMO.

 

[Poo]

spam bleed?
all i use are Cu's and i rarely see them bleed anyone.

back to OP, MR diminishing returns make anything past 30 wasted pretty much.
thats what it is for players and id have to assume its the same for pets.
so if you have 30MR on your pet cranking up the INT or having GM med and focus arnt gonna magically boost your pet past the diminishing returns point successfully.
getting up to 50, 60MR the difference between that and 30 is gonna be so small you wont even perceive it.

 

[afk]

You completely lost me.

Yes, 1 MR costs 12 training points. At a cap of 360 points, this is a max. of 30 MR, a pet can get. This is mentioned on the Animal Training Page and this is 100% correct.

But which calculator & formula are you speaking of?
If you mean the ones on UOguide, I posted earlier, then you completely mixed something up. These DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with TRAINING POINT COST!!!
The formula is just for calculating MPS, no more, no less...

The formula written on the page comes up with a different answer than the the calculator (assuming a typo but no big deal). The post was about why the mana regeneration that my pet was getting did not equal that which was posted on pet training page, which you did answer, as i was not aware the diminishing returns on MR applied to pets. This information should have been posted on the pet training as it affects the actual cost of MR and how what you actually get for the points spent.

 

[Pawain]

I was and still am under the impression that the OP is talking about mana regeneration. And the formulas I provided were exactly about that. So my math ability definitely isn't down.
And why exactly are we talking about pet training costs now in this thread?

Down-- Slang for: you got it man!

Im definatly not down with math.

I was asking because you sounded like you were down with the math. Just like I said.

Youngsters dont know words anymore.

 

[Thrakkar]

The formula written on the page comes up with a different answer than the the calculator (assuming a typo but no big deal). The post was about why the mana regeneration that my pet was getting did not equal that which was posted on pet training page, which you did answer, as i was not aware the diminishing returns on MR applied to pets. This information should have been posted on the pet training as it affects the actual cost of MR and how what you actually get for the points spent.

Allright, got it now. Of course this is still under the assumption, that pets use the same or a similar formula for MPS calculation like for player characters. (Similar, because the INT/400 part might need some tweaking, since we would end up with a multiplier >1 for perts with INT > 400). If MPS would be affected by MR in a linear way (aka no diminishing returns), this would be extremely powerful, probably too powerful. That and your feedback on how it works in practice, strongly makes me belive, that it's perfectly safe to assume, such formula is in place.

Well, actual MR training cost is linear. But yes, if someone adds MR, it's MPS, which they need. So yes, you do not get, what you paid for in a certain way. Not sure, if that information would be well placed on the animla training page, since that could probably also confuse people easily. I was under the impression that the difference between MR & MPS and thus the diminshing returns are common knowledge. But yeah, nobody knows everything, right?

 

[Thrakkar]

Down-- Slang for: you got it man!

Im definatly not down with math.

I was asking because you sounded like you were down with the math. Just like I said.

Youngsters dont know words anymore.

Allright, I definitely wasn't down with that
To my excuse, english isn't my native language.
Every day you learn something new...

 

[Slayvite]

*looks back over posts now discussing which correct math and formulas to use and grins*
I rest my case

 

[Thrakkar]

*looks back over posts now discussing which correct math and formulas to use and grins*
I rest my case

Just curious, how many formulas are there?

 

[Slayvite]

Just curious, how many formulas are there?

Who knows anymore....the devs sure dont

 

[Maximus Neximus]

spam bleed?
all i use are Cu's and i rarely see them bleed anyone.

back to OP, MR diminishing returns make anything past 30 wasted pretty much.
thats what it is for players and id have to assume its the same for pets.
so if you have 30MR on your pet cranking up the INT or having GM med and focus arnt gonna magically boost your pet past the diminishing returns point successfully.
getting up to 50, 60MR the difference between that and 30 is gonna be so small you wont even perceive it.

But is the diminishing returns for all forms of mana regen calculation or just the 30mr property from items/stats?

 

[afk]

But is the diminishing returns for all forms of mana regen calculation or just the 30mr property from items/stats?

after looking at the formula diminishing returns should only affect the 30mr property, assuming it same for pets and characters.

On a side note, i apparently was not aware of the correct mana regeneration rate given by meditation. I had thought it was 1 mr for every 10 points with a bonus of 1 mr for gm or greater skill, however according to the formula it is .75 mr per 10 points in meditation and a bonus of 10% for gm or above. Of course i may be remembering the prenerf meditation before diminishing returns.

 

[Thrakkar]

On a side note, i apparently was not aware of the correct mana regeneration rate given by meditation. I had thought it was 1 mr for every 10 points with a bonus of 1 mr for gm or greater skill, however according to the formula it is .75 mr per 10 points in meditation and a bonus of 10% for gm or above. Of course i may be remembering the prenerf meditation before diminishing returns.

On a side note, it would be less confusing to use MPS (mana per second) in this case instead of MR, because this could be easily mistaken for the item property.

You're just off by one decimal. 10 points in Med give you .075 MPS below GM. Otherwise you'd have almost 7.5 MPS at 99.9 Med alone!!! That would be huge! Also please be aware, that this value also only applies, if you don't have any MR items equipped.
I.e. with 30 MR equipped, you'd get .09117 MPS per 10 Med below GM.

 

[Thrakkar]

after looking at the formula diminishing returns should only affect the 30mr property, assuming it same for pets and characters.

Exactly! If shown in a diagram, it would look like this:

 

[Petra Fyde]

But I do know that I don't like having to do algebra to play a game.

You don't. There's such a thing as over-thinking a problem. Here's my attitude: I gave my cu Chiv - therefore she needs mana to cast it, give her as much mana, mana regen, medi and focus as I can and reasonable int, taking into account that int affects sdi. Job done. Other people can go into the formulas and maths if that's what floats their boat, but it's no way necessary to play the game.

 

[Maximus Neximus]

You don't. There's such a thing as over-thinking a problem. Here's my attitude: I gave my cu Chiv - therefore she needs mana to cast it, give her as much mana, mana regen, medi and focus as I can and reasonable int, taking into account that int affects sdi. Job done. Other people can go into the formulas and maths if that's what floats their boat, but it's no way necessary to play the game.

I'm not one that will blindly apply skills/stats/whatever to something though. I want to make sure I'm doing it in the most efficient way. By giving as much aman, mr, med, and focus that I can, I'm losing out somewhere else.

Plus even if I didn't care to min/max things, it helps to know how things work.

 

[Pawain]

I'm not one that will blindly apply skills/stats/whatever to something though. I want to make sure I'm doing it in the most efficient way. By giving as much aman, mr, med, and focus that I can, I'm losing out somewhere else.

Plus even if I didn't care to min/max things, it helps to know how things work.

Look at the price of a 120 Focus and meditation. You definitely want to know if you really need it.

 

[SwordofExcalibur]

Lately, I tend to feel satisfied with 110 Med Focus, 150 INT, and 6 MR for a non-Mage pet.

I never feel the 40 mil to spend on 120 scrolls is justified. Maybe if I had money to burn, sure.

I don't notice a dent in my deeps/kill speed anyway.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

I have been noticing my CU i've been using seems to be using a lot of mana with no apparent affect. However after doing some testing i came to the conclusion that it is his MR that is the problem. I kept checking his mana regeneration at 1,2 and three minute intervals(making sure he was at full health and not cursed before checking).

The amount of MR after repeated testing was consistently between 35-36 MR which was well and good except for a couple things:
1st- He has 30 extra MR from training
2nd-He has GM med and GM focus for an additional 15 MR
3rd-He has 280 int which i believe gives an additional MR for every 40 pts, so an extra 7 MR
Now this totals 52 MR which is 16-17 more MR than the 35-36 he currently is regenerating.

Now I haven't had time to check some other pets to get an idea of where he is losing MR from(assuming there is not a cap i do not know about), so has anyone noticed this with their pets or is there something i'm not aware of like a cap?

Cu Sidhes consume 10 Mana every time they apply a bandage. If you've added an ability like Chivalry, then they'll also be blowing through Mana spamming Chiv spells, you can also add a Special Move such as AI, which also burns a lot of Mana. With Chiv, Bleed, AI and their innate Healing, Cu Sidhes have the highest mana burn rate of any pet in the game, they are quickly and constantly working on fumes. Which is why getting INT to 370 is more important than increasing Max Mana on them (they're quickly going to dump all their Mana anyways, and at that point the only thing that matters is how fast they can regen it).

My Tank Cu that has Feint, Bleed (innate) and Healing (innate), his Mana lasts a lot longer than that of a Chiv+AI Cu.

 

[Tyrath]

I don't do formulas just side by side observations. Two Cu's built identical except one has 120 med and focus the other has 100 med and focus. They both hit zero mana within a second or two of each other and they both regen mana at about the same rate. From what I see the difference between 120 and 100 is minimal at best and not worth burning scrolls on. Assuming you have 30MR, decent Int and decent mana pool for the initial burst. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Uvtha]

Look at the price of a 120 Focus and meditation. You definitely want to know if you really need it.

You never need it. The only reason one would even consider getting them is if you were someone who cared a lot about min/maxing, something you completely don't need to do to make a fully functional pet. You only need to do the math if you want that extra 3-5% power or whatever it boils down to, over a causally trained pet.

 

[celticus]

You never need it. The only reason one would even consider getting them is if you were someone who cared a lot about min/maxing, something you completely don't need to do to make a fully functional pet. You only need to do the math if you want that extra 3-5% power or whatever it boils down to, over a causally trained pet.

Is Focus 120 useful for Mysticism using pets? or it only applies to player toons? Info will be appreciated.

 

[Maximus Neximus]

Is Focus 120 useful for Mysticism using pets? or it only applies to player toons? Info will be appreciated.

I would assume that it would be important for damage.

 

[Uvtha]

Is Focus 120 useful for Mysticism using pets? or it only applies to player toons? Info will be appreciated.

I would imagine it works the same way, don't know for sure. But points wise its cheap, so give your pet the best you can/care to afford for the cheapo skills. Can't hurt for 10-20 training points.