Order/Chaos guilds, would you want them back?

[Viper09]

Recently a question came about whether or not Order/Chaos guilds were still around. Naturally, the answer was no, and reason being that factions replaced them. For those who don't know, Order/Chaos were basically the old factions, Order being the side of Lord British, and Chaos representing Blackthorn, and they were constantly at war. A quick and easy way to get some good ol' combat. It was just easy to become either Order/Chaos as opposed to finding someone to war constantly. Nice thing about Order/Chaos would be that you could be able to fight in Trammel, which you can't with factions.

So, would you want Order/Chaos re-introduced?

 

[Kyrie_Elaison]

Either allow Factions to fight in Tram, or bring back Order/Chaos, or both.

 

[InTooDeep]

I agree with the concept, but bringing back Order/Chaos doesn't really make sense now as far as the game is concerned. Bringing something else thats basically the same with a different name and different sides would be great though.

 

[Sheridan]

Bring 'em back and give the Chaos/Order shields worthy enough properties to be wielded!

 

[Viper09]

I agree with the concept, but bringing back Order/Chaos doesn't really make sense now as far as the game is concerned. Bringing something else thats basically the same with a different name and different sides would be great though.

I can see where you are coming from. Perhaps Order/Chaos could be brought back in form of the current events, something related to the Shadow Lords or whatnot?

 

[Wenchkin]

Either allow Factions to fight in Tram, or bring back Order/Chaos, or both.

Keep factions in Fel, Order/Chaos can be anywhere and would be better suited to Tram. After all, you'd either need Tram bases, which further spreads out the faction fights, or a darn good reason why folks were fighting on a different facet from their base. Order/Chaos doesn't require the bases and sigils so would be a better choice for cross-facet PvP. And IMO very welcome as such.

Wenchy

 

[Turdnugget]

I definately say yes. The reason I don't like factions is the stat loss time. Don't get me wrong, a penalty is fine, but the factions on Baja...Pretty much only CoM exists and guess what? They all cheat/hack so it's no fun at all.

Being able to fight on both facets would be great fun. Take the fighting out of Yew somewhat. It would also stop all the unattended murder count burning in Tram cities... no longer safe. Who care if the Order/Chaos doesn't have anything to do with current in game stuff... Don't get me wrong, most people who do factions or Order/Chaos don't do it for the whole 'event' type stuff. It's mostly an easier way to find a fight if there is more orange around.

Perhaps give special mounts to Order/Chaos? Armored horses? Kinda like a swamp dragon but for PvP and would only be effective vs. Order/Chaos. Since Order/Chaos shields can be had by anyone now... or maybe special recipes to craft Order/Chaos weapons/shields/spellbooks that can ONLY be used in Order/Chaos.

Maybe something like... a katana with 'Order' damage... kinda like a slayer weapon, not nearly as much damage as a slayer weapon, but an increase, also spellbooks with similar properties so the mages aren't left out.

The only downside I see is that reds couldn't fight Order/Chaos in Trammel. Perhaps give Order/Chaos each a castle as a faction. Not per guild. That has certain abilities... kinda like the Color wars years back on test...

I definately say YES to Order/Chaos coming back.

 

[Harb]

Very good idea, it would open up Tram based lands a bit more. Put in very good shields, that get even better by providing benefits when engaged with opposition members. Seems best for no other "benefits," so as not to infringe on factions. Please don't make it guild based, having crafters along for the ride, or forcing guild "splits," both would be bad ideas! Allow individual character choces, and render order/chaos as solely the ability for PvP outside the Fel rules set.

 

[Tina Small]

I'd just as soon leave the PvP with strangers in Fel. If I want to PvP in Trammel, I'd rather do it with folks I know and am in a guild with and where someone (guild leaders/emissaries) have some control over the troublemakers/griefers.

If factions ever morphs into or is replaced with Order/Chaos and the PvP extends into Trammel, I'm done with factions or will throw true junk characters into it and take my better characters out of it. If I want to play in a "no place is safe" environment where I'm constantly looking over my shoulder, I'll start playing on Siege.

 

[Kaleb]

I am in a faction chaos guild right now. BTW Factions did not replace order/chaos, Age of Sh#$ replaced them.

 

[ColterDC]

I'm all for any system that allows for some pvp outside of fel. Something that will let non-PvPers witness what UO pvp involves from complete safety. Seeing 2 guys from opposing sides fight in the middle of luna might entice at least a few non-PvPers to join a side and start their PvP experience.

The Yew/Brit gate scene on most shards is the worst way to get people into PvP. Unfortunately, with the exception of some screenshots, most Non-PvPers never get to witness the large 30+ players, multi guild battles that happen at champ spawns and harrowers that lead to epic battles that can last for hours and people will be talking about for weeks.

The only system currently in place is the guild war system which does not work for many, many reasons.

 

[UltimaSword]

Yes but not as Order/Chaos. But as something else that follows the current arc.

 

[Viper09]

If I want to play in a "no place is safe" environment where I'm constantly looking over my shoulder, I'll start playing on Siege.

How would introducing guild pvp such as Order/Chaos guilds into tram make it unsafe??? Order/Chaos is only an option that you can choose in a guild, guilds do not have to become either Order or Chaos, they can just remain a normal guild. People do not have to participate if they don't want to...

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Order/Chaos was fun, it was another way to steal in town without needing to worry about the GAURDS showing up...la

 

[Kaleb]

Because you posted it on Stratics and its about pvp reguardless if it has nothing to do with the PVM playstyle.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Speaking as an old time Order/Chaos person from Atlantic I say if people want to wear those shields the way they do now, make them earn the right as we had to many years ago.

For those who don't know it used to be that if you tried to wear an order/chaos shield and you weren't in a guild that was order/chaos it would just vanish out of your characters hands to demonstrate your unworthiness.

 

[Viper09]

Speaking as an old time Order/Chaos person from Atlantic I say if people want to wear those shields the way they do now, make them earn the right as we had to many years ago.

For those who don't know it used to be that if you tried to wear an order/chaos shield and you weren't in a guild that was order/chaos it would just vanish out of your characters hands to demonstrate your unworthiness.

I was very disappointed after they got rid of Order/Chaos Guilds when I found out that anyone could wear Order/Chaos shields. I didn't even get that into the Order/Chaos thing either.

 

[love2winalot]

There has to be a reason to join. Before, it was the only way to get a Chaos/Order sheild, that at that time were the best in the game. But.........as usual.........the cry babies won..........."I want the sheild, but i do not want to be attacked without prior written permission".....

So, what did they do? They let everyone have the sheilds, and got rid of Order vs Chaos.

What to do now? You can not add Factions, Good vs Evil, ect, and expect very many people to be interested in it, and become part of it. Why? Because what you have to lose, is greater than what you have to gain. Now, go and flip that around, and now your a talking..........

 

[drinkbeerallday]

if no one is interested in warring why do you think people will suddenly be interested in this?

are there any big guild war shards? maybe asian?

 

[Kaleb]

Make the order or chaos shields again but leave the regular equipable ones for people who like the look.

Then add Properties that would make a PvPer want to use it even pvmer for that matter something like this

Order/chaos shield
Spell channeling
HcI 15
HcI 15
FC +1
mr 2
Phys +5
fire +5
cold +5
poison +5
energy +5

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

And Yet Another Con to gain access to Trammel Players to Gank.

For all these years, since Trammel went live (and before when the Townies were protected), the same old, tired, beaten to death scams get the "Oh what a brilliant idea on how to teach the Trammies how to have fun, to show them what total morons they are for not knowing how to defend them selves".

OR said more directly, one by one, lets con/scam the Felucca Play Style into Trammel. Yes they need 100 different ways to have PvP in Trammel.

Yes lets not talk about how to make Felucca better, lets create yet another scam on how to ruin Trammel and wake a sleeping giant.

 

[Tina Small]

How would introducing guild pvp such as Order/Chaos guilds into tram make it unsafe??? Order/Chaos is only an option that you can choose in a guild, guilds do not have to become either Order or Chaos, they can just remain a normal guild. People do not have to participate if they don't want to...

If you read the rest of my post, my point was that if Order/Chaos replaces factions, I want nothing to do with it.

I like the faction system the way it is now because it is restricted to Fel. If I put good characters into factions and then decide that I want to just do some plain old PvM with them for a while without having to look over my shoulder the whole time and worry that I'm orange to someone and dying to them will put me in skill loss for 20 minutes, I just go to Trammel to do my PvM. In other words, I have the option to walk away from it to the relative safety of Trammel at any time I want since my characters that are in it are not red. Also, with factions being limited to Fel, the PvP mostly takes place in places where it makes sense for it to take place (i.e., in the towns, in the bases, on the way to/from the bases). And skill loss, as annoying as it can be at times, serves the purpose of helping to make sure fights have definite winners and losers.

However, if Order/Chaos replaces factions, my characters that are in it will be orange to someone no matter where they go and will never have a safe place to do banking, get repairs done, tame new pets, farm up a new supply of arrows, etc. It also seems to me that the focus/purpose of the PvP might be diminished or switch more to just having massive, mindless, purposeless brawls anywhere and everywhere.

Maybe there are enough people out there playing UO or that would return to or try out UO that like the idea of never really being safe anywhere in UO to make it work. Maybe they are already in a guild where people are constantly battling each other and don't mind being ganked as they do their banking. Or maybe they have red characters in factions so they know what it's like to not be safe even in town. Me, I just don't have the interest in doing something like that and if factions ever ends up going in that direction, I'm done with all of it. I got into factions and put some of my best characters into because I wanted to learn about and try out PvP. I doubt I would have ever done so in an "all or nothing" type system because it just would have been too overwhelming for me as a real PvP novice.

I'm not looking for a consensual PvP "switch." However, I like the idea of PvP being limited to a specific area that I can go to or leave at will and that has a definite and challenging purpose to it. I'm just not interested at this point in time in participating in a PvP system that has no useful and interesting safe zones whatsoever. If and when I want something like that, I'll go to Siege or, if we ever get it, a pre-AoS shard or I'll just go play an entirely different game altogether.

 

[RoycroftLS]

And Yet Another Con to gain access to Trammel Players to Gank.

For all these years, since Trammel went live (and before when the Townies were protected), the same old, tired, beaten to death scams get the "Oh what a brilliant idea on how to teach the Trammies how to have fun, to show them what total morons they are for not knowing how to defend them selves".

I don't think it is quite that dire of a situation... Yes, some people might be looking for easy prey, but I don't feel that everyone who suggests bringing consensual PvP to the game is looking to con the Trammel players.

Personally, I feel that some of the existing lands should be converted to a new ruleset that would essentially be Trammel with factions/consensual PvP. Leave some lands entirely Fel based, leave some entirely Tram based, make the rest the new ruleset.

As others have mentioned, factions in an otherwise PvP-free land would allow the average player to safely witness PvP in a non-moongate environment. I have a few friends who had their first experience with PvP at Yew gate and subsequently swore off PvP altogether. Maybe if they saw that PvP is not always a house-hugging gankfest, they could be encouraged to experience the half of the game they are currently missing.

I simply feel that something should be done to reduce the vast gap between PvP and PvM in game. And as long as there is a confirmation gump that pops up upon joining a such a faction (that explains that you are freely attackable in any non-Tram land once you join), I don't think there would be much cause for concern for the average player.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Speaking as an old time Order/Chaos person from Atlantic I say if people want to wear those shields the way they do now, make them earn the right as we had to many years ago.

For those who don't know it used to be that if you tried to wear an order/chaos shield and you weren't in a guild that was order/chaos it would just vanish out of your characters hands to demonstrate your unworthiness.

Speaking as an Old Time Player that was part of the conversation that created the Order/Chaos concept, the Idea was to align the population (think original UO) into two groups. The Order/Chaos Shields were meant to be a symbol of that alignment. That if you were a Miner and saw a group wearing the Order Shield you could feel safe.

THAT REALITY NEVER PANED OUT, did it!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I mean you being an Old Time Player and all).

There were ways to have both Order and Chaos Shields, weren't there!!!!!!

Equipping an Order shield DID NOT CONVEY ANYTHING, in terms of your alignment (now lets use Red's vs Blues), did it!!!!!!

And guess what the Battle Cry then was. Anyone wanting a Shield NEEDED TO EARN IT.

Oh my, EARN IT meant PvP, GANK Miners, GANK Lumber Jacks, GANK Herders.

There is no doubt why it was retired and replaced by Factions.

So your .... argument is that all the Trammel Players that, for some ... reason, wield a Chaos or Order Shield, MUST Play by the Felucca Rule Set. Or in short, LETS IMPORT THE FELUCCA RULE SET TO TRAMMEL.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

....

Personally, I feel that there some of the existing lands should be converted to a new ruleset that would essentially be Trammel with factions/consensual PvP....

...
factions in an otherwise PvP-free land would allow the average player to safely witness PvP...

Current state of affairs in Felucca vs Trammel.

Felucca is empty, BY CHOICE.

Trammel is populated, BY CHOICE.

Proposal, lets allocate EVEN MORE LAND TO PvP (the con is to state it as a ... subset of the Felucca Rule set).

------------

Yes lets have these wars in the Luna Bank, the Britain Bank. Lets show the Trammies just how totaly moronic their CHOSEN Play style is. Lets FORCE them to be spectators at the TRASH TALKING POINTLESS (to the Trammel player) PvP. So we can show what BAD A$$es we are and what BABIES THEY ARE.

-----------------

Regardless of it being an intentional scam or just .... creative rationalization/denial, the end effect is the same.

PvP people want access to the greater group that has REJECTED that play style. To FORCE that greater group to actively or passively PARTICIPATE in a Play Style THEY HAVE ALREADY CHOSEN TO REJECT and continue to CHOSE TO REJECT, else they would be in Felucca and it WOULD NOT BE EMPTY.

Does it even occur to you that, perhaps the majority of that group finds being SUBJECTED TO / FORCED to be a spectator to what they consider offensive (gratuitous profanity), trash talking, name calling, racial sluring, sexist jerks IS NOT FUN?

I mean get honest here, it is NOT like any of these Battles will EVER be fought in an Empty Field with NO TRAMMIE SPECTATORS is it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean that is OBVIOUS isn't it!!!!!!!! Else these same people would fight in Felucca, the EMPTY PvP FACET.

--------------------------

Get real here, none of this is about MAKING FELUCCA better, more Viable. It is 100% about FORCING Trammel to be the Felucca Rule Set. Giving the Felucca Play Style 100% Free Access to Trammel to do what every they want there.

Not a single part of this proposal IMPROVES FELUCCA.

In the end, it would be one more NAIL DRIVEN INTO FELUCCA's (the rule set) COFFIN.

 

[Turdnugget]

Enigma, I see that you've always been a Trammy at heart. Tina, if you don't want to participate in Order/Chaos and not feel 'safe', then don't do it. Nobody is forcing you to. Just like factions. What's wrong with having to look over your shoulder when doing PvM? That's the way it used to be. Nothing better than the thrill of being in the middle of meleeing a Lich Lord and then getting attacked by 2 reds and having to fend them off. That's where the fun begins.

Enigma, if you thought that someone wielding an Order shield meant safety. All I can do is laugh. Just because you see that doesn't mean crap. It's like seeing someone in TB... a PK. Wow. True Brits must be the 'good' guys.

Anywho...I think it's lame to limit PvP to just Fel. Why? Because there's a good deal of people, who ONLY come to Fel when they've got numbers up. Why not weed out these PvP pansies? And remember, unless you're ORDER/CHAOS, you have no fear in these carebear lands.

 

[Tina Small]

Tina, if you don't want to participate in Order/Chaos and not feel 'safe', then don't do it. Nobody is forcing you to. Just like factions. What's wrong with having to look over your shoulder when doing PvM? That's the way it used to be. Nothing better than the thrill of being in the middle of meleeing a Lich Lord and then getting attacked by 2 reds and having to fend them off. That's where the fun begins.

Eh, I give up. People don't read. I said I don't want Order/Chaos to replace factions.

I am in factions now. I do PvM in Fel with my faction characters, so I know what it is like to do PvM while looking over my shoulder the whole time with the added incentive that if someone orange comes along there's a lot of potential I'll have to deal with skill loss. I'm fine with all that.

I'm just not interested in participating in a system that has no safe zone whatsoever. If factions remains as is and Order/Chaos comes back as something separate....wonderful! However, if Order/Chaos replaces factions, I'm done with it for now because I just have no interest in playing UO that way. Am I a wimp and a Trammie at heart? Probably. But at least factions the way it works today was enough of a draw for me to try out PvP someplace other than at the Yew moongate. Order/Chaos that extends throughout all facets is absolutely of no interest to me and I doubt I'd participate if it made a comeback. It would be too much like having a red character in factions...no where is safe. If Order/Chaos makes a comeback and it gets more people to play UO, well I guess that's wonderful too. But I doubt I'll be one of them, especially if it is the replacement for factions.

 

[Wenchkin]

And Yet Another Con to gain access to Trammel Players to Gank.

Erm, we have warred guilds in Tram, those sorts of cons are available if anyone chooses to use them. All that's required in the case of an Order or Chaos guild recruitment screen is the additional warning that they're signing up to fight other guilds and a link to a guide page about O/C. I'm pretty sure there's already a warning when you're invited to a guild as it is. This is just an extension of the guild wars feature which is currently in place on all facets.

Remember, we had this system in place before, and I don't remember any Tram players complaining that they joined an O/C guild and got ganked. I've heard many more stories about players being killed by guild mates and warred guild members than O/C problems.

Wenchy

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Speaking as an Old Time Player that was part of the conversation that created the Order/Chaos concept, the Idea was to align the population (think original UO) into two groups. The Order/Chaos Shields were meant to be a symbol of that alignment. That if you were a Miner and saw a group wearing the Order Shield you could feel safe.

THAT REALITY NEVER PANED OUT, did it!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I mean you being an Old Time Player and all).

There were ways to have both Order and Chaos Shields, weren't there!!!!!!

Equipping an Order shield DID NOT CONVEY ANYTHING, in terms of your alignment (now lets use Red's vs Blues), did it!!!!!!

And guess what the Battle Cry then was. Anyone wanting a Shield NEEDED TO EARN IT.

Oh my, EARN IT meant PvP, GANK Miners, GANK Lumber Jacks, GANK Herders.

There is no doubt why it was retired and replaced by Factions.

So your .... argument is that all the Trammel Players that, for some ... reason, wield a Chaos or Order Shield, MUST Play by the Felucca Rule Set. Or in short, LETS IMPORT THE FELUCCA RULE SET TO TRAMMEL.

The Order/Chaos system was from the beginning about warfare and choosing your allegiance to either Lord British or Lord Blackthorne, all this nonsense about player alignment had nothing to do with it.

Also you aren't an old time player, and it shows by the way you throw your childish tantrums and ignorance when people bring certain issues up. Ganking miners or other crafters was never an option for me since almost all of the Order/Chaos warfare took place IN TOWNS, do you even understand that in order for Order/Chaos to be relevant to you as a player that you have to be in one of the two? if not you cannot be attacked.

Your post shows a complete ignorance of the system, as it doesn't really effect trammelites who don't want to fight, they don't have to fight even if Order/Chaos is allowed.

To the player who mentioned they prefer factions to Order/Chaos I would just like to say that I am on the other side of that fence as I was when the idea of factions first started being thrown around, we had two factions and they were perfectly fine the way they were.

That era of pvp in my opinion was the most enjoyable.

Also if the system is reimplemented I say either join Order/Chaos or you can't wear the shields, just my opinion.

 

[Turdnugget]

Tina, I gotcha. I dunno what would happen with factions if they brought Order/Chaos back. I think it would bring some more people back to UO though. Why? Well, with all the cheaters around these days, a lot play factions... so playing against a cheater in factions, unless you've got uber mad skill beyond their 3rd party programs, or have a crapload of people with you. Chances are, speeder and their PvP help programs will overcome so there will be a lot more time in stat loss... That doesn't interest me at all.

I understand your concern though, about not having a safe spot to go to. I remember when Bucs Den was the only place a red could bank...those were the days.

I do like being able to fight on any facet, due to the fact, if the person is going to be Order/Chaos, it's not just someone who is only going to come to Fel every so often w/friends to PvP (no offense) each person has their own PvP playstyle and what they like dislike. I just don't like seeing blue people from another guild sitting in Luna for hours, then when they hear of a spawn they rush to raid, and when it's all done, they go back to Luna...kinda lame if you ask me.

 

[Turdnugget]

And the comment about trammies having to hear the slander, trash talk, sexist remarks etc... You're going to hear that anywhere. It's not just Fel that it takes place. If you don't like it, they have a FILTER for that.

 

[Tina Small]

Tina, I gotcha. I dunno what would happen with factions if they brought Order/Chaos back. I think it would bring some more people back to UO though. Why? Well, with all the cheaters around these days, a lot play factions... so playing against a cheater in factions, unless you've got uber mad skill beyond their 3rd party programs, or have a crapload of people with you. Chances are, speeder and their PvP help programs will overcome so there will be a lot more time in stat loss... That doesn't interest me at all.

I understand your concern though, about not having a safe spot to go to. I remember when Bucs Den was the only place a red could bank...those were the days.

I do like being able to fight on any facet, due to the fact, if the person is going to be Order/Chaos, it's not just someone who is only going to come to Fel every so often w/friends to PvP (no offense) each person has their own PvP playstyle and what they like dislike. I just don't like seeing blue people from another guild sitting in Luna for hours, then when they hear of a spawn they rush to raid, and when it's all done, they go back to Luna...kinda lame if you ask me.

And I understand where you're coming from too and the points you're trying to make. Order/Chaos just isn't something that appeals to me. Factions does because I can walk away from it and then come back to it when I'm ready for another dunking in the world of PvP.

And just so you know, the faction guilds I'm now in are dinky...about as small as you can get and still have enough characters to carry out all the functions. No mass numbers, that's for sure. LOL (At one time one of the faction guilds I'm in was large and consisted predominantly of red characters. Fun bunch to play with...pretty hard core.) But you're right about all the cheating. Don't really know if it's more prevalent in factions versus elsewhere in Fel, but when you run into it, it is very disheartening.

 

[Turdnugget]

Tina, i'm not saying you're the kind who only comes to Fel to PvP when you got numbers. I mean there are other things to do in the game. On my server it's pretty much only factions that 'have' to cheat. 1v1 w/out hacks they are pretty bad. There are a few others that do as well. But not to the extent as some.

 

[The Home Guild]

I had fun with choas/order guilds years back..i think they should bring it back.
Was nice to run to brit and attack order on site and battle mid town.
/SIGNED

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Erm, we have warred guilds in Tram, those sorts of cons are available if anyone chooses to use them. All that's required in the case of an Order or Chaos guild recruitment screen is the additional warning that they're signing up to fight other guilds and a link to a guide page about O/C
.....

Wenchy

Yes, that is the case isn't it. There is already a means to do this.

No one needs to have Order/Chaos implemented they can simply create a Chaos Guild and a Order Guild and be on their merry way, cant they BUT of course that IS NOT the intention. The Intention is to FORCE the Felucca Play Style on Trammel. Go to the Factions forum and see the OP wanting Factions IN Trammel.

It is always about PvP being FORCED into Trammel.

The con/scam, regardless of it being intentional or just another creative rationalization/denial is the "Additional" ways to FORCE PvP into a system that has clearly rejected it. With the side effect of spreading PvP even thinner. AND THE MORE DESIRABLE side effect of FORCING Trammel Players to be spectators.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

The Order/Chaos system was from the beginning about warfare and choosing your allegiance to either Lord British or Lord Blackthorne, all this nonsense about player alignment had nothing to do with it.
...

That era of pvp in my opinion was the most enjoyable.

Also if the system is reimplemented I say either join Order/Chaos or you can't wear the shields, just my opinion.

Ok lets do it.

As I said I WAS THERE FOR THE CONVERSATION THAT CREATED ORDER vs CHAOS. All YOU can do is quote a Lore that was wrapped around it, you know, like people do when they were not a part of the process and just read about things, years later.

Original UO, people asked for a safe zone for new players to learn UO. Perhaps the South Jungle Area from Trinsic.

This is REJECTED BY DD (oh oops YOU WANT TO MAINTAIN I DON'T KNOW THIS). A conversation insues that organizes people into 2 sides (OH MY ORIGINAL UO You know OLD TIMER (LMAO) PRE TRAMMEL/FALUCCA). Oh Gosh lets choose two names ORDER (RULES) vs CHAOS (ANARACHY). BUT you want to maintain I do NOT know this. You want to maintain that ORDER is a meaningless word. That CHAOS is a meaningless word. WELL GUESS WHAT, that is exactly what I SAID HAPPENED AND WAS THE JUSTIFICATION TO CREATE FACTIONS AND RETIRE Order vs Chaos.

FOR NOT KNOWING, how is it I KNOW that you could have both shields and equip the one that you wanted and YOU DO NOT Oh wait that is because YOU have NOTHING TO SAY ON THE SUBJECT other than to claim I DO NOT KNOW.

Your entire RANT was nothing substantive. It was 100% about you wanting to whine how YOU LOVED GANKING PEOPLE under the GUISE OF Order vs Chaos. That YOU want to be able to do that in the POPULATED TRAMMEL, rather than the DESERTED FELUCCA.

Why is that? Why are YOU SO DESPERATE to FORCE YOUR PLAY STYLE ON TRAMMEL?

 

[Connor_Graham]

Apparently you hardcore Trammies don't understand the concept of Order/Chaos in Trammel. Unless you're in either of the guilds, they CANNOT ATTACK YOU IN TRAMMEL. So in no way is it going to be unsafe for you in Trammel land unless you're a part of either Order/Chaos.

Hardcore Trammies understand just fine. Maybe you should try explaining why more areas, and another PvP system, should be opened up for PvP when the one you have now is empty.

Non-Order/Chaos don't have to be involved at all. It was a really fun system compared to Factions. Well, factions were alright at one point when there wasn't so many cheaters. And it's nice to not be forced to fight in only 1 facet.

PvP isn't limited to Fel now. Guild wars allows fighting in Tram rulesets, yet is never used. Probably because Tram is filled with people that want to have a place where there isn't any PvP so they can play the other parts of the game and not worry about having to PvP there.

It helps weed out the true at heart trammies who spend most of their time in Luna/Trammel and only come to Fel when they've got better odds w/more numbers.

The majority of the people that spend most of their time in Luna are your fellow PvP'rs burning off counts. PvM'rs only go there to pick up/turn in Bods or to buy/sell something, and usually don't spend a whole lot of time there other than that. Besides, what's wrong with "true at heart Trammies" being in Tram doing whatever they want to do?

I think there needs to be some better incentive for PvP and the hackers, exploiters, speeders need to be dealt with. Otherwise PvP is always going to suffer. I don't mind dying in PvP when it's legit. Heck I don't mind dying to a para-noob/gank. But when I die to a hacker, who insta cures poison thanks to EasyUO, who uses the create food spell to not use as much mana on next special, or who skips around my screen faster than Little Red Riding Hood made it to grannies house, or somehow seems to casts spells pretty much on the fly or off my screen? No thank you. PvP on my server is a bit slow at times, but when there is, it's typically pretty fun. Once the faction my server logs in.... it's no longer fun. Hacks,exploits, speeder, ghost cams at spawns... wtf is that? Sad that people have gone to such lengths to try and be better at pixels.

I have to agree with you in regards to how sad it is that people suck so bad at a part of the game they want to play that they have to cheat in order to win. Something does need to be done about it, but until EA can incorporate some means of either detecting it, or changing the programming so it can't be done, it will remain a blackeye on the face of UO.

But for you Trammies being naysayers about Order/Chaos. It's not going to effect your PvM, or die to an Order/Chaos... because guess what? They can only ATTACK ORANGE in Trammel. So unless you're a part of either. You have nothing to worry about.

We know that. Maybe we just don't want PvP in and around where we do our thing. Regardless of what some may say, there is more trash talk around PvP than there is in Tram. In a single month I saw more trash talk in Fel than I have in 4 yrs of playing in Tram. That's pretty sad itself. Don't give me this crap about filters either. The majority of people that play UO are adults. They should be able to act like it, and not use the anonymity of the internet as a shield to act like a 12 yr old that just learned what the dirty words are.

 

[Korso]

Yes, that is the case isn't it. There is already a means to do this.

No one needs to have Order/Chaos implemented they can simply create a Chaos Guild and a Order Guild and be on their merry way, cant they BUT of course that IS NOT the intention. The Intention is to FORCE the Felucca Play Style on Trammel. Go to the Factions forum and see the OP wanting Factions IN Trammel.

It is always about PvP being FORCED into Trammel.

The con/scam, regardless of it being intentional or just another creative rationalization/denial is the "Additional" ways to FORCE PvP into a system that has clearly rejected it. With the side effect of spreading PvP even thinner. AND THE MORE DESIRABLE side effect of FORCING Trammel Players to be spectators.

Troll

 

[Harb]

Felucca is empty, BY CHOICE. Trammel is populated, BY CHOICE.

True.

Yes lets have these wars in the Luna Bank, the Britain Bank. Lets ... FORCE them to be spectators at the TRASH TALKING POINTLESS (to the Trammel player) PvP. So we can show what BAD A$$es we are and what BABIES THEY ARE.

Look partner, I strongly agree with many of your "effect," "consequence" and "end state" observations. I also strongly disagree with your "approach," which is judgmental, condemning, lacks compromise and fails to appreciate that others may want to play in a manner different from yourself. Nothing should be more important to Mythic than enabling all players to enjoy the game, and empowering them to do so. Once a player infringes on someone who does not wish to be infringed upon, an issue arises as the latter is no longer enjoying the game. But "trash talking" 1) already exists and 2) doesn't quite hold the same level of "infringement" as nonconsentual PvP.

PvP people want access to the greater group that has REJECTED that play style.

Everyone, unless there actually exists an account holder who hasn't a single blue character, already has access.

To FORCE that greater group to actively or passively PARTICIPATE in a Play Style THEY HAVE ALREADY CHOSEN TO REJECT and continue to CHOSE TO REJECT, else they would be in Felucca and it WOULD NOT BE EMPTY.

There certainly would be no "active" requirement to participate in Order/ Chaos PvP. Passive "participation" is debatable, observing an act simply isn't "really" participating.

Does it even occur to you that, perhaps the majority of that group finds being SUBJECTED TO / FORCED to be a spectator to what they consider offensive (gratuitous profanity), trash talking, name calling, racial sluring, sexist jerks IS NOT FUN?

Profanity, name calling, racial and/ or sexist slurs carry penalty, from suspension to banning. Personally, I report the latter two, and have seen Mythic take action. It is our responsibility to make the system work, but again, it does work. So on this one, I don't see the issue.

I mean get honest here, it is NOT like any of these Battles will EVER be fought in an Empty Field with NO TRAMMIE SPECTATORS is it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure they will.

Get real here, none of this is about MAKING FELUCCA better, more Viable. It is 100% about FORCING Trammel to be the Felucca Rule Set. Giving the Felucca Play Style 100% Free Access to Trammel to do what every they want there.

To me, this thread isn't about Felucca or the Fel rule set. Nobody is "forced" to do anything, all that is offered is an additional methodology to enable PvP interaction for those who chose to participate. And it certainly isn't a "free access" proposal, red characters would still be forced to reside in Fel.

In the end, it would be one more NAIL DRIVEN INTO FELUCCA's (the rule set) COFFIN.

I thought you'd consider that a good thing? I wouldn't, but do believe that a successful order/ chaos system may be well suited to the upcoming SA expansion, almost certainly more so than allowing red character access. Where you and I do agree is that a) playing a red character is a player choice, b) it is an antisocial choice, c) it adversely effects subscriptions and the population as a whole and d) should carry severe penalty and restriction.

I posted this comment earlier:

Very good idea, it would open up Tram based lands a bit more. Put in very good shields, that get even better by providing benefits when engaged with opposition members. Seems best for no other "benefits," so as not to infringe on factions. Please don't make it guild based, having crafters along for the ride, or forcing guild "splits," both would be bad ideas! Allow individual character choices, and render order/chaos as solely the ability for PvP outside the Fel rules set.

Let me elaborate/ modify a couple things.
A) As an incentive to participate, add very nice shields that can’t be fortified or repaired . Try something like HCI 15, DCI 15, SC, FC 1, HPR 3 and 5 in each resist. Lower requirements by say 50% and set durability around 150. There’s no reason to delete any existing shield. Enable these shields to be equipped only by participants, and preferably a unique hue. Clicking the throne at either castle would provide a new shield.
B) Clicking either throne allows a character to join either alignment. Guilds are not affected. Factions are not affected.
C) Keep it simple.

 

[Dakkon Blackblade]

Ok lets do it.

As I said I WAS THERE FOR THE CONVERSATION THAT CREATED ORDER vs CHAOS. All YOU can do is quote a Lore that was wrapped around it, you know, like people do when they were not a part of the process and just read about things, years later.

Original UO, people asked for a safe zone for new players to learn UO. Perhaps the South Jungle Area from Trinsic.

This is REJECTED BY DD (oh oops YOU WANT TO MAINTAIN I DON'T KNOW THIS). A conversation insues that organizes people into 2 sides (OH MY ORIGINAL UO You know OLD TIMER (LMAO) PRE TRAMMEL/FALUCCA). Oh Gosh lets choose two names ORDER (RULES) vs CHAOS (ANARACHY). BUT you want to maintain I do NOT know this. You want to maintain that ORDER is a meaningless word. That CHAOS is a meaningless word. WELL GUESS WHAT, that is exactly what I SAID HAPPENED AND WAS THE JUSTIFICATION TO CREATE FACTIONS AND RETIRE Order vs Chaos.

FOR NOT KNOWING, how is it I KNOW that you could have both shields and equip the one that you wanted and YOU DO NOT Oh wait that is because YOU have NOTHING TO SAY ON THE SUBJECT other than to claim I DO NOT KNOW.

Your entire RANT was nothing substantive. It was 100% about you wanting to whine how YOU LOVED GANKING PEOPLE under the GUISE OF Order vs Chaos. That YOU want to be able to do that in the POPULATED TRAMMEL, rather than the DESERTED FELUCCA.

Why is that? Why are YOU SO DESPERATE to FORCE YOUR PLAY STYLE ON TRAMMEL?

It's great that you "said that" and all, I could say I know where there is a forrest of pink unicorns but that I am not allowed to show them to you and you just have to take my word on it.

And for the record I am not quoting lore at all, I am telling you that the lore is not relevant as we who actually PLAYED during Order/Chaos and fought with each other for years enjoyed it immensely.

Reading your posts is hard, because you have to translate all of the screaming and whining and just incoherent babble that is flying around before you can attack the meat of what it is about.

Also I still don't get where you are pulling this absurd "ganking miners" idea although the more posts of yours that I read the more I am starting to realize you don't even know what you are saying and probably where you are at any given moment.

So I'll say this again, Order/Chaos did not involve anyone who didn't want to be involved. There was no ganking of helpless crafters or anything of the sort.

I and others have tried to point this fact out to you but it just seems like you can't quite wrap your head around it, so lets try a second time and in bigger words so you can see it perhaps?

NO ONE IS FORCING A PLAYSTYLE ON YOU IF YOU DON'T WANT INVOLVED IN ORDER/CHAOS THEN DON'T JOIN AN ORDER/CHAOS GUILD!!!

See that isn't forcing you to do anything, people still won't be able to attack you in trammel unless you do join one of those guilds and I doubt you will notice much of a change really.

Now please stop babbling about something you obviously know nothing about, you can talk all you want about what Order/Chaos "means". The fact of the matter is that your misconceptions about how the system works is proof plenty that your entire diatribe is meaningless.

 

[Harb]

Hardcore Trammies understand just fine. Maybe you should try explaining why more areas, and another PvP system, should be opened up for PvP when the one you have now is empty.

Well written and to the point. Mythic seems intent on expanding PvP opportunity, thus the comment at the last town hall regarding allowing red character access into the SA lands, which IMHO is a very bad idea. Guild wars have not achieved whatever Mythic's goal was. Factions have not rooted themselves on US shards as they have in Japan. The Felucca rules set and consequent red "behavior" have rendered that portion of the map grossly underutilized. So I think trying something else, opposed to reinforcing failure, might be the better course for Mythic to pursue.

Tram is filled with people that want to have a place where there isn't any PvP so they can play the other parts of the game and not worry about having to PvP there.

This is actually a two part statement. I concur that most folks prefer the Tram rules set and do not want nonconsentual PvP, obviously this is a no brainer. I'm not actually sure how many really care about what may go on within their vicinity, so long as it does not infringe on themselves. Sure, childish behavior and language are potential downsides, but let's face it, the "world" is fairly large and it's not all that difficult to ignore undesirable behavior.

I have to agree with you in regards to how sad it is that people suck so bad at a part of the game they want to play that they have to cheat in order to win. Something does need to be done about it, but until EA can incorporate some means of either detecting it, or changing the programming so it can't be done, it will remain a blackeye on the face of UO.

Yepper, this one is a real problem. It is the only reason I no longer particiapte in PvP. If this can not be adequately addressed, nothing can be done to enable greater appeal for PvP. For me, it's the only downside to order/ chaos or any other PvP system. If allowed to continue, my idea regarding great shields for participation becomes yet another unfair disadvantage to the majority of the player base who play the game fairly. But let's face it, Mythic very much wants to encourage the playstyle! So something new might achieve their goal.

Regardless of what some may say, there is more trash talk around PvP than there is in Tram. In a single month I saw more trash talk in Fel than I have in 4 yrs of playing in Tram. That's pretty sad itself. Don't give me this crap about filters either. The majority of people that play UO are adults. They should be able to act like it, and not use the anonymity of the internet as a shield to act like a 12 yr old that just learned what the dirty words are.

Sad but true. And certainly there will be argument on the boards, but these facts are inescapable.

 

[Kyrie_Elaison]

Keep factions in Fel, Order/Chaos can be anywhere and would be better suited to Tram. After all, you'd either need Tram bases, which further spreads out the faction fights, or a darn good reason why folks were fighting on a different facet from their base. Order/Chaos doesn't require the bases and sigils so would be a better choice for cross-facet PvP. And IMO very welcome as such.

Wenchy

I agree with keeping factions in Fel, I just think that faction members should be able to engage combat in Tram. Leave all the sigils and faction assets in Fel though.

I never understood why they replaced Order/Chaos with factions, then didn't allow faction members to engage combat in Tram. Just doesn't make sense. I see faction members all the time hanging out in Tram, but when you try to find a fight in Fel there is nobody around. Let us engage them in Tram.

I think half the faction members join factions just so they can access goods and horses.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

... says a bunch of day care psychi babble, directed at the poster and not any aspect of the issue

it is clear you have no knowledge other than what you read or participated in way after the fact.

LMAO at this.

What is CoB? Oh yeah like you know, you can not just google it and get the answer to why it is even relevant.

BUT you make sure you keep ranting about how I am a NEWBIE to the game and your an OLD PLAYER .

 

[RoycroftLS]

Current state of affairs in Felucca vs Trammel.

Felucca is empty, BY CHOICE.

Trammel is populated, BY CHOICE.

Proposal, lets allocate EVEN MORE LAND TO PvP (the con is to state it as a ... subset of the Felucca Rule set).

Is this just personal opinion, or do you have empirical evidence to back this up? Of course there are going to be more people overall in areas with the Trammel ruleset, there is three times more landmass with the Tram ruleset than the Fel ruleset.

And if you actually read my proposal, I never say that you will be forced to PvP in the new proposed ruleset. You can go to those same lands and do your same activities and never once be attacked unless you choose to be attacked. If you don't want to be attacked, simply don't flag yourself.

Yes lets have these wars in the Luna Bank, the Britain Bank. Lets show the Trammies just how totaly moronic their CHOSEN Play style is. Lets FORCE them to be spectators at the TRASH TALKING POINTLESS (to the Trammel player) PvP. So we can show what BAD A$$es we are and what BABIES THEY ARE.

I can't even begin to imagine how you inferred that I feel all Trammies are morons from the things I said. For the most part, I'm a Trammie myself. In no way would anyone be forced to watch people PvP in my new proposed areas. All I said is that people would have the opportunity to do so.

And if even that is too much for people to bear, even with the handy ignore features included in game to squelch any trash-talkers, that is part of the reason why I suggested that some lands stay entirely Tram-based.

PvP people want access to the greater group that has REJECTED that play style. To FORCE that greater group to actively or passively PARTICIPATE in a Play Style THEY HAVE ALREADY CHOSEN TO REJECT and continue to CHOSE TO REJECT, else they would be in Felucca and it WOULD NOT BE EMPTY.

What about those people who just want to PvP sometimes and not make it a profession? (I would include myself in such a group.)

Right now on production shards our PvP options are a) go get slaughtered by whichever guild has a stranglehold on champ spawns or b) run around moongates with people whose idea of tactics is using the latest bug or exploit.

There is such a huge disparity between PvP and PvM that most "casual" PvPers are left in the cold. And don't give me the "you can guild war in Trammel" excuse. Sure, that works on a small scale for short periods of time, but with no in-game incentives or bonuses included in such a system it can't possibly keep someone's interest over the long haul.

Does it even occur to you that, perhaps the majority of that group finds being SUBJECTED TO / FORCED to be a spectator to what they consider offensive (gratuitous profanity), trash talking, name calling, racial sluring, sexist jerks IS NOT FUN?

Through personal experience, the immaturity level of a player has no direct dependence on what ruleset they choose to play by.

And the solution to people saying such things isn't all that difficult... either let the comment slide, put them on your ignore list, or report them to a GM.

Get real here, none of this is about MAKING FELUCCA better, more Viable. It is 100% about FORCING Trammel to be the Felucca Rule Set. Giving the Felucca Play Style 100% Free Access to Trammel to do what every they want there.
Not a single part of this proposal IMPROVES FELUCCA.

Where did I claim that my proposal was meant to improve Felucca? And where do I say that any of the current Trammel lands would become places where you would be forced into a Felucca rule set?

My proposal isn't about trying to impose one ruleset onto another. It's about trying to find a better solution for those people who want to experience both PvP and PvM in game without having to play two radically different playstyles.

If anything, your response shows just how segregated and prejudiced the two opposing sides have become. And in my opinion, that isn't a good sign for the game as a whole.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
If anything, your response shows just how segregated and prejudiced the two opposing sides have become. And in my opinion, that isn't a good sign for the game as a whole.

Thank for making it clear you want Felucca in Trammel. As in Integrating the two Rule Sets?

HOW ABOUT THIS?

We integrate the Trammel Rule Set into Felucca. Give everyone a PvP switch to throw. If it is NO PvP then no matter were they go, no matter what they do, they CAN NOT BE PK'd. Felucca gets tons a trsh talking Trammel players to play with. OOPS Put on Ignore. LMAO

Lets Integrate the two sides LMAO at the reply to that one.

It does NOT go unnoticed the cynical solution to FORCING Trammel to endure a Play Style IT REJECTED AND LEFT.

Oh, some one is doing the very things YOU WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM? Simple, IN YOUR HOUSE, WITH YOUR RULES, YOU LEAVE AND TRY TO FIND A NEW PLACE TO PLAY.

As to Felucca being empty? Why THIS TROLL THREAD if it were adequalty populated? Oh you mean the Intuitivly Obvious? IT IS EMPTY?

You mean you do NOT read the mired threads regurgitating the same bile about HOW EMPTY FELLUCA IS. And how UO would be vastly better IF ONLY TRAMMEL WERE MADE INTO A FELUCCA RULE SET?

 

[Kyrie_Elaison]

And Yet Another Con to gain access to Trammel Players to Gank.

Remember, we had this system in place before, and I don't remember any Tram players complaining that they joined an O/C guild and got ganked. I've heard many more stories about players being killed by guild mates and warred guild members than O/C problems.

Wenchy

I think the reason that people didn't complain back then is that they new if they were joining a Chaos or Order guild that it was definitely PvP. It wasn't a situation where you had joined a non-PvP guild and then, without notifying all the members, your guild declared war on another, and it was accepted. You can actually blame those situations on guild members not checking to see if their guild was engaged with others.

Wynchy is right, from my recollection, all of the complaints were about guilds luring members in and then ganking the new member.

Everyone knew that Order/Chaos was PvP, so there was no question as to what you were getting into.

I also agree with the shields. Make it just like it used to be. You could only get the shields from the guards, and you had to be either Order or Chaos to equip it.

*flash back phase*
I remember hanging around Brit bank and seeing Order and Chaos members standing around talking. Then someone would talk smack and the fight was on. It was really tons of fun, and it wasn't always a constant fight. Order and Chaos would even hang out and chat with each other.

It was a completely different style of PvP, and if you didn't want to be in it you didn't have to. Yet Order and Chaos members only needed to be concerned with each other, and not worry about roaming the country side in fear of reds, or someone else that could attack you at any time. You knew immediately who your opponent was.

In Fel everyone is your opponent.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

....
*flash back phase*
I remember hanging around Brit bank and seeing Order and Chaos members standing around talking.
...

And you do not remember the Order attacking Order, Chaos attacking Chaos?

 

[Wenchkin]

Yes, that is the case isn't it. There is already a means to do this.

No one needs to have Order/Chaos implemented they can simply create a Chaos Guild and a Order Guild and be on their merry way, cant they BUT of course that IS NOT the intention. The Intention is to FORCE the Felucca Play Style on Trammel. Go to the Factions forum and see the OP wanting Factions IN Trammel.

It is always about PvP being FORCED into Trammel.

The con/scam, regardless of it being intentional or just another creative rationalization/denial is the "Additional" ways to FORCE PvP into a system that has clearly rejected it. With the side effect of spreading PvP even thinner. AND THE MORE DESIRABLE side effect of FORCING Trammel Players to be spectators.

It is not being forced on you. You either join an O/C guild or you don't. It's the same as deciding whether to join a warred guild or not. Or to join in a RP guild where there will be PvP and possibly a set of restrictions in place. If you don't want any of those things, you can choose other guilds or make your own. Players in Tram manage these decisions very well as the game stands now.

I don't particularly like seeing a lot of things in Tram, from bank sitting spammers to blaze or other neon atrocities. I have the same solution that Tram players have with O/C. Chances are it'll happen around banks and popular areas - so do banking away from Luna and WBB and the chances are you'll see nothing of it. And so what if you can see players fighting? You can see that if you happen upon some Tram guilds in a war with each other. You can see all sorts of bad trash talk in Tram as it is. Whether it's bank spamming or some brat at a spawn. You set a player to ignore and the problem is solved.

I think you're asking for players to be wrapped up in a comfy blanket where no bad stuff exists. But UO is a game, not RL. We need to get into perspective here - all we're seeing is pixels on a screen, not a lot of burly lads scrapping on our RL doorstep.

And I'll say it again, we had this system before, and the world didn't end. It won't end with the re-introduction of O/C either. I can see reasons why players would object to something new, but this is just re-instatement of something which players enjoyed.

Wenchy

 

[Korso]

Thank for making it clear you want Felucca in Trammel. As in Integrating the two Rule Sets?

HOW ABOUT THIS?

We integrate the Trammel Rule Set into Felucca. Give everyone a PvP switch to throw. If it is NO PvP then no matter were they go, no matter what they do, they CAN NOT BE PK'd. Felucca gets tons a trsh talking Trammel players to play with. OOPS Put on Ignore. LMAO

Lets Integrate the two sides LMAO at the reply to that one.

It does NOT go unnoticed the cynical solution to FORCING Trammel to endure a Play Style IT REJECTED AND LEFT.

Oh, some one is doing the very things YOU WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM? Simple, IN YOUR HOUSE, WITH YOUR RULES, YOU LEAVE AND TRY TO FIND A NEW PLACE TO PLAY.

As to Felucca being empty? Why THIS TROLL THREAD if it were adequalty populated? Oh you mean the Intuitivly Obvious? IT IS EMPTY?

You mean you do NOT read the mired threads regurgitating the same bile about HOW EMPTY FELLUCA IS. And how UO would be vastly better IF ONLY TRAMMEL WERE MADE INTO A FELUCCA RULE SET?

Aww, its like talking to a little kid. You are just so cute!! I'll help point out one of many flaws in lamen terms . If you take tram rules and apply them to fel... then its no longer Fel. If you take order a chaos and put it in tram.... Its still Tram. Nothing changes other then you'll see people fighting around town who want to.

Its about 3:30pm, your getting all cranky and bent out of shape. You think your proving your point by saying HAHAH, and LMAO. It think its time for you to go and lay dow for a while and take a nap. If you need any help explaining anything else, just let me know.

 

[Kyrie_Elaison]

And you do not remember the Order attacking Order, Chaos attacking Chaos?

Sometimes, yes. But you new up front that you were going to be in a PvP guild. So it wasn't like you had been lured into a non-PvP guild and then ganked by the members. I remember some guilds on Pacific that were very well known for doing that, and they would get the gainkees by telling them that they were not a PvP guild.

One thing I noticed is that a lot of people are thinking that this would affect the Tram ruleset to make it like Fel. It doesn't!

Order/Chaos is simply allowing two different guild types that you know are PvP guilds. I would rather see them take away the ability for guilds members to attack guild members or war with other guilds unless they were Order/Chaos. This would put a complete stop to ganking guild members that hadn't actually signed up for PvP. And if someone was going to sign up with your guild and it was Order or Chaos then they would know immediately that PvP was involved.

rolleyes: