[OOC] Virtuebane.

[WarderDragon]

Those following current fiction will find this interesting.

Virtuebane - The Codex of Editable Wisdom.

Virtuebane is a daemon in Ultima IV, waiting at the entrance to the ruins of Magincia.

Prior to Ultima IV, the inhabitants of Magincia provoked a horde of daemons to attack their city due to their insufferable pride. It is unknown if Virtuebane was amongst this horde, but it is known that the city was destroyed, and the souls of those who perished were left to haunt the ruins.

When the Stranger met Virtuebane in Ultima IV, the devil gloated about the destruction of the once proud city of Magincia, and explained to the Stranger that Magincia was destroyed for founding their virtue upon pride.​

 

[Trebr Drab]

I don't get the complaints about proofreading. I saw a couple of mistakes, but this seems overly negative to me. If someone could point out what's wrong, it might help an illiterate like myself.

 

[WarderDragon]

Some of it is simply players' fault. It's disgraceful the way players will often ignore what we are told.

Care to share some examples?

 

[WarderDragon]

No one believes the Bane Chosen are 'Good.'

Whether or not someone chooses to have their character believe that is another matter. Most characters haven't been given the guided tour of Pandaemonium complete with the reveal that Lucifer is behind the Chosen. Several choose to see the Bane as a Warriors avenging themselves on those 'abhorrant demihumans' for their crimes against humans. Subsequent actions - the invasion of a large patch of dirt and shrubs in the midst of the Great Sea - can be explained in a number of creative ways by aforementioned characters.

As for the smears against Queen Dawn? Consider it misinformation spread by political opponents. I can't imagine the Peerage of Britannia is pleased with a peasant on the Throne.

Political Intrigue and Philosophical Conflicts are the ingredients I find develop Good Roleplay and Interaction on Shards such as Baja. Disgraceful Players? Mm ... Hardly.

 

[Trebr Drab]

I don't think most players care about any "good or evil" in UO or any other game. Most of them just see a way to get something. In this case, those Bane Dragons. That's all they see in games because that's all they've seen, shown to them by everything around them.

And once again, we see no consequences for choosing either side. At least not yet. But if they ever were to add that to this scenario, you can bet that players would complain with a vengeance. Because that's how players are conditioned to think, that there will be no consequences.

And I dearly wish that would change. Despite the complaints, I dearly wish that UO would give meaning to this event and the choices made. Because that's how to wake up players and place them into a meaningful world. And if they were to start giving some real meaning to the game, I'd bet they'd gain more old players than lose some of the many complainers.

Unfortunately, the quitters would be first, and the joiners would come later, and that's a risk for the Devs presently. They need the support from those above them at EA/Mythic. I don't know if that will ever come.

 

[WarderDragon]

Your reaction is ... telling. But not unexpected.

I however should not have plugged Baja in as a counter to whatever is or is not being done on Great Lakes. I am not in the business of debating who has the better shard or whose EMs best represent current fiction.

For that I apologize.

What I am interested in is a discussion about these ... 'Disgraceful Players.' To date I've seen one or two threads where people claim 'Queen Dawn is behind the Bane Chosen.' Most of these people are not Roleplayers. The one that does come to mind was a parody of the smear campaigns leading up to the recent elections. I found humor in them - though false - and wouldn't mind seeing more of these because it means people are paying attention to the fiction and are interested in being active participants.

 

[WarderDragon]

I was not talking about Great Lakes; I was, as I have stated multiple times now, talking about U-Hall. You weren't exactly plugging Baja in any meaningful sense; you were reacting to what I said as thought it were about Baja, which it plainly wasn't.

Do me a favor. Show me where it states U.Hall. Because I see alot of mentions about Great Lakes and nothing about these 'Disgraceful U.Hall Posters.'

"The biggest flaw in this event cycle, I argue, is that not enough goes on in-game for us players and our characters to really be able to know what's going on. This makes the fiction seem more scattered and disconnected than it should and compounds the negative impact of the "meh" fiction. (Some of it is simply players' fault. It's disgraceful the way players will often ignore what we are told. It probably adds to a sense of despair the devs might feel, and indirectly contributes to sloppy fiction. If we won't pay attention to what they say, why should they bother?)

Add all these things together and it's simply too easy to not care about the fiction or the event, or too easy to think ridiculous things like that Dawn is behind the Bane Chosen. (Though, again, part of it is the players' fault too of course. Too many of us wouldn't care even if they bent over backwards.)

The exception of course is if you play on Great Lakes, like you and I do!

There, the Event Moderators have long-woven bits of the In the Shadow of Virtue story arc into their own story arcs. It's not a coincidence that the one significant player-led counter-attack to the Bane Chosen, at least that I know of, has happened on Great Lakes. The EMs have, in effect, made us care. I suggest that EMs should be used to supplement and round out the meta-fiction story arcs, but should never be essential to them."​

"The exception of course is if you play on Great Lakes, like you and I do!"

If it was meant to be about what people claim on U.Hall - which was not clear to me in the above statements - what relevance does Great Lakes have?

You made a comment about 'Disgraceful Players.' I called you out on it because I know several who do have characters believing Queen Dawn is behind numerous troubles in Britannia. You said nothing about U.Hall and instead blamed it on characters ignoring Queen Dawn's apparent Virtue and choosing to believe or theorize that she might have much more insidious plans than we are led to believe. I offered that there are people who do this on purpose - roleplaying various identities - and that prompted a series of self-censored words.

Would you care to explain this apparent disconnect?

 

[WarderDragon]

I never said they (players who appear to not be paying attention to the fiction) were (roleplayers).

Not once.

You remember the statement you made about RP being the Saving Grace of UO and that numerous people do it without being cognascent of it? I do.

I see people Roleplaying. Taking an interest in the Fiction. Engaging and Discussing the Arc. Most have no concept of what they are doing. Most do not know what roleplaying is. Most are meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

You claim these people are ignoring the fiction. Why? Because said characters choose to believe Queen Dawn is the Antagonist? These people have to be reading something to be capable of forming such an argument.

I did not suggest that you claimed these people were Roleplayers. (If it came across in such a manner then I would have no objection to returning and editing that comment.)

I instead am trying to suggest that - in the cases I've seen where someone comes and claims Queen Dawn is behind the Bane - we should be responding in the same manner and engaging aforementioned players. I disagree with regarding them as ... "Disgraceful."

 

[WarderDragon]

It doesn't, but it doesn't say Baja either. If you had assumed U-Hall you would have been on safer ground, as it is a forum of general interest. You chose to assume I referred to Baja and you chose to be offended. That was your choice; not obviously related to anything I said.

The Great Lakes references I made, which you cite, were in context clearly related to the way in which the event cycle has to my mind greater meaning, and arguably to someone else merely a different meaning, on GL, due to the way the EMs have weaved the official story arc into their own.

I mention Baja for the reason I assume you mentioned Great Lakes. It was a shameless plug. A picture of how characters on various shards have reacted to the Arc and Queen Dawn. You mentioned the Magincian Crusade. (Though not by name.) I chose to mention Baja since on that shard more characters choose to take a much more antagonistic view of Queen Dawn. (That has much more to do with player fiction going back a decade than the Current EMs or Arc.)

I find it interesting how each shard - from the Historical Fiction of Europa to the more High Fantasy Pacific - has developed a culture and worldview nothing like the others.

But since this is the sort of mature discussion we're delving into - "Two replies from one of the popular kids; I must be special." - I am respectfully bowing out of this discussion before we get the thread locked and trashed.