Ok SRSLY this time

[yadiman]

I know, I just don't give up heh. I've seen something similar too, but anyways...

In an attempt to bring back Feluccia to the original thrill. I'm proposing that all artifacts/scrolls in game would be droppable from feluccia dungeons from any mob. These artifacts would be uninsurable until removed from the dungeon, and they would also prevent stealth (or have a glow). It also needs to become harder to simply run away from a fight. Dungeon teleporters and star room moongate should be deleted, and gates/entrance/exits to different levels of the same dungeon should have a 15 sec activate timer and dismount the player. The deeper someone is inside a dungeon, the greater chance of an artifact. At the deepest levels, there should be a significantly greater chance at getting something for your time spent compared to farming a trammel boss. Certain smaller dungeons which lack gates/multiple levels could have them added at various chokepoints and serve to increase the dungeon "level". Murderers would also have significantly increased insurance costs inside these dungeons. In addition, gathering resources and gold loot can also be doubled, but would have to greatly increase recall cast time when a player is not within a town or home.

Also, with specific "Dungeons of the day" that increase rewards, characters could further increase the risk/reward system. Dungeons of the day would also insure that people could still easily find a group for trammel bosses.

Champion spawns could then turn into events for large group fighting. Yes, my limited # champ spawn idea again. Could lower the difficulty of the encounter so PvP characters can complete it easily.

 

[CovenantX]

These artifacts would be uninsurable until removed from the dungeon, and they would also prevent stealth (or have a glow). It also needs to become harder to simply run away from a fight. Dungeon teleporters should have a 15 sec activate timer and dismount the player. The deeper someone is inside a dungeon, the greater chance of an artifact. At the deepest levels, there should be a significantly greater chance at getting something for your time spent compared to farming a trammel boss.

Also, with specific "Dungeons of the day" that increase rewards, characters could further increase the risk/reward system. Dungeons of the day would also insure that people could still easily find a group for trammel bosses.

Champion spawns could then turn into events for large group fighting. Yes, my limited # champ spawn idea again. Could lower the difficulty of the encounter so PvP characters can complete it easily.

The un-insurable drops I couldn't agree more, that is how Replica's should have been (insurable after you leave the dungeon). I don't agree with the dungeon teleporters, IMO they porters should just be Removed completely, Including the gate to the star-room. It shouldn't be so easy to leave a spawn area, especially when you're not normally able to recall in the dungeons to begin with...

Deeper in the dungeon = better drop-rates makes sense, and would certainly stay true to a Risk Vs Reward system. (since you can't recall out, you would need to travel further too.. (I like)


"Dungeon of the Day" sounds interesting, This would only work if there would be a balance in good/not so good rewards in different dungeons. Otherwise people would just wait until it picks the one with the most/best drops... (add different artifacts to different dungeons/bosses (NO shared drops, unless they're gotten in the SAME area)


I don't think spawns should be "easy" for anyone, and if it's easy for "Pvp" characters, it would be extremely easy for "Pvm" characters, so basically nothing would change.
I for one do not pvm with my pvp characters. and I have absolutely no interest in PvMing with a PvP char either. I don't think a change to champ spawns like you propose would be necessary.

I am also not a fan of anyone regardless of them being PvP/PvM being locked out of anything... (coming from your other post, that had to do with champ spawn/lockouts)

 

[yadiman]

Ya, the lock-out on champ spawns doesn't have to happen, but there should be a stat penalty for characters who die in the area, and also increase insurance costs for reds.

And I should have been more clear with "teleporter". I mean like the teleporters to different levels of shame. And like you said, remove the moongate in star room and teleporters to the different dungeons.

Also, the reason i suggested that champion spawns be easy, is because the best group pvp fight would be with pvp characters. If the PvM content is difficult, it will be a fight between PvMers and PvPers. Limited champ spawns with great rewards will insure that many pvpers come.

 

[Viper09]

Would have to be a significant increase in insurance cost because money to support it isn't exactly hard to come by.
What about a penalty on dieing too many times within a time-frame, maybe 10 minutes. Each death within this time period insurances increases by 2x, resetting the clock after each death.

 

[yadiman]

I was thinking insurance costs could be 20k+items initially. Then they could work it like you suggested.

Well, I personally (as a current trammie and former PKer), would love this because of excitement of a real consequence fight always just around the corner. As opposed to current champ spawns where you know they're just going to show up at the last stage. Say nothing of the abomination of Yew pvp. I know current players are used to Yew, but new players are needed in every game, so we have to think of them as well.

This suggestion also allows for a more diverse player style in fel IMO. So unless we can come up with a better way to make Feluccia a fun place to be for both PKers and treasure hunters/craftsmen, pls support this suggestion.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

After 63 Publishes it may be a little late to remove the dungeon teleporters.

There will be more complaints than praise, and no not from me. I'm already used to the lack of teleporters given the fact that they are not there at all in Trammel.

-Galen's player

 

[CovenantX]

After 63 Publishes it may be a little late to remove the dungeon teleporters.

There will be more complaints than praise, and no not from me. I'm already used to the lack of teleporters given the fact that they are not there at all in Trammel.

-Galen's player

I agree, they have certainly been in-game for a long time... but in all honesty they never should have been added to ANY dungeons, I don't remember the last time I recalled to any fel dungeon other than Fire or a T2A entrance to get somewhere...

Better late then never though.

 

[Picus at the office]

After 63 Publishes it may be a little late to remove the dungeon teleporters.

There will be more complaints than praise, and no not from me. I'm already used to the lack of teleporters given the fact that they are not there at all in Trammel.

-Galen's player

Tram you can leave almost any spot you feel like with a few limited areas.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Tram you can leave almost any spot you feel like with a few limited areas.

Leave at all? Oh, surely, but no one was denying that.

Some years ago I was building up a new character, died in Despise, and realized I was going to have a much harder time leaving than I would if I'd been in Despise, Fel. I was and remain loath to use "help/stuck" in such a situation.

-Galen's player

 

[yadiman]

Well, teleporters might have been nice for people who quickly want to check all the spawns to see if someone is there, but they are also a detriment to the same people when their victims escape using them. If we really need the teleporters, perhaps they could be moved near the main entrance of these dungeons. Also, add the activate timer / force dismount to them.

 

[Tanivar]

I know, I just don't give up heh. I've seen something similar too, but anyways...

In an attempt to bring back Feluccia to the original thrill. I'm proposing that all artifacts/scrolls in game would be droppable from feluccia dungeons from any mob. These artifacts would be uninsurable until removed from the dungeon, and they would also prevent stealth (or have a glow). It also needs to become harder to simply run away from a fight. Dungeon teleporters and star room moongate should be deleted, and gates/entrance/exits to different levels of the same dungeon should have a 15 sec activate timer and dismount the player. The deeper someone is inside a dungeon, the greater chance of an artifact. At the deepest levels, there should be a significantly greater chance at getting something for your time spent compared to farming a trammel boss. Certain smaller dungeons which lack gates/multiple levels could have them added at various chokepoints and serve to increase the dungeon "level". Murderers would also have significantly increased insurance costs inside these dungeons. In addition, gathering resources and gold loot can also be doubled, but would have to greatly increase recall cast time when a player is not within a town or home.

Many more artifacts/scrolls for the PKers to sell. Sounds great for the PKers. What will the non-PKers who do all the actual work get out of it, more deathrobes because escaping with our loot alive becomes 10x more difficult? Sounds like our just taking vastly more Risk of Rewarding the PKers who wind up with much more loot to sell back to us for millions in gold.

You do the work of killing the mobs for the loot you sell to us, we'll let you <laughs>

 

[yadiman]

Many more artifacts/scrolls for the PKers to sell. Sounds great for the PKers. What will the non-PKers who do all the actual work get out of it, more deathrobes because escaping with our loot alive becomes 10x more difficult? Sounds like our just taking vastly more Risk of Rewarding the PKers who wind up with much more loot to sell back to us for millions in gold.

You do the work of killing the mobs for the loot you sell to us, we'll let you <laughs>

Well, if the PvMers are capable in PvP as well, they can survive with their increased # of arties, and if they can go even further and kill the reds, they get increased gold. If people still think 20k + items insurance cost is too low, we could raise it, but remember that it's a rare circumstance to get an item worth millions of gold. Perhaps if a player has been recently rewarded with an artifact and kills another player, they get 100k insurance reward.

Anyways, I really want the system to be fair and attractive to all who do not despise PvP.

 

[CovenantX]

Many more artifacts/scrolls for the PKers to sell. Sounds great for the PKers. What will the non-PKers who do all the actual work get out of it, more deathrobes because escaping with our loot alive becomes 10x more difficult? Sounds like our just taking vastly more Risk of Rewarding the PKers who wind up with much more loot to sell back to us for millions in gold.

You do the work of killing the mobs for the loot you sell to us, we'll let you <laughs>

Join people that Pvp, or ask them to raid the raiders.... I couldn't careless about the "loot", its the fights that matter to most pvpers, the problem is there's nothing worth fighting over anymore in fel.

The rewards for doing spawns are no longer attractive to most pvpers, they have lost their value since they were added... there's nothing new in fel that isn't in tram other than the two SA spawns which aside from a very select few rewards you get the same power-scrolls from every spawn in fel.

When pvp was more fun/balanced (before Mysticism & Throwing) We (our guild) would ask over general chat on LS for people who are not normally in fel to come kill barracoon in despise, in hopes that it would provoke other Pvp guilds to raid so we could get a fight (while defending the people killing the champ)... We never killed the "trammies" that came to kill the boss, even after they killed it, they kept their scrolls/replicas w/e. [OMG!] guild btw.

Sure anyone can go to tram, and anyone can go to fel, but if something drops in both Tram & Fel, there's no benefit (only added risk) to farm for it on the Fel side.

 

[CovenantX]

Well, if the PvMers are capable in PvP as well, they can survive with their increased # of arties, and if they can go even further and kill the reds, they get increased gold. If people still think 20k + items insurance cost is too low, we could raise it, but remember that it's a rare circumstance to get an item worth millions of gold. Perhaps if a player has been recently rewarded with an artifact and kills another player, they get 100k insurance reward.

Anyways, I really want the system to be fair and attractive to all who do not despise PvP.

Increasing the amount of insurance gold someone would earn from pvp, wouldn't be productive at all, This is UO people will abuse the hell out of a system like that, farming kills in "Not so popular dungeons" just to "dupe" gold.

The 20k insurance cost thing would be counter productive for newer players as well, not just newer players, but not everyone has tons of gold. It's easy to make gold, but not everyone knows how or makes the right choices in doing that.

 

[yadiman]

Increasing the amount of insurance gold someone would earn from pvp, wouldn't be productive at all, This is UO people will abuse the hell out of a system like that, farming kills in "Not so popular dungeons" just to "dupe" gold.

The 20k insurance cost thing would be counter productive for newer players as well, not just newer players, but not everyone has tons of gold. It's easy to make gold, but not everyone knows how or makes the right choices in doing that.

Well it wouldn't "dupe" the gold, it would take it from the other character. And a new player will just have to understand that there are consequences to turning red. Increased insurance cost is one of them. Blue characters will not have these increased costs, since they will typically be the ones farming for arties.

Edit: Also, if a red does not have enough gold in the bank to cover a death, it would not let him enter the dungeon.

 

[yadiman]

If a new character wants to get into pvp, they can start by being a PK hunter. Also the upcoming Order/Chaos thing.

 

[CovenantX]

I'm not so sure about any "more penalties" added to fel or "reds" for that matter, most people that pvp today don't even play their reds as much anymore, you could just as easily go grey on a blue and have people unintentionally attack you via EVs or AoE spells/whirlwind. I would argue that Reds not being able to use Virtues is penalty enough, not to mention they can't access most of the game's content.

IMO, there is not enough "Penalty" to Trammel vs the "Benefits" of Fel (There are None, in both, there is Only Penalty in Fel). Which is probably the main reason Fel is pretty much dead.

 

[cazador]

*all statistics used in this post were opinion and judgements based on how i see things u may not agree...


New characters shouldn't be in pvp for months after they join that's what tram was built for to give safe haven to train and craft...but now it's a safe haven to craft/train and farm..they have been slowly phasing out pvp..interesting enough the more they phase out pvp the higher the free shard population gets and the lower OSI gets :/ interesting...you're right tram keeps this game alive and the devs killing fel are killing the roots of it...I don't know how long a lot of people here have been playing but before tram there were wolves and sheep..so they created tram to cater to the non pvpers..fine but slower and slower almost all content minus scrolls has been tram side..oh yea fel gets double resources..now that resources cost nothing and scrolls are at an all time low due to 80% of all pvp dead due to all the tram additions and the lack of love to fel..there aren't as many wolves and less than before but more sheep..so now the sheep farm the scrolls and sell to the pvpers..which is good because hell I don't want to PvM and farm stuff ill buy from you..but man add more content to fel to at least make the non pvmers have a reason to log on...just remember the worse it gets for pvp the less you have to sell too..lol not many people make awesome suits and buying all your MATS u farm from the dungeon to make their 150mil crafters suit...u make 70-80% of your gold from pvpers..try and keep us around..

 

[yadiman]

I'm not so sure about any "more penalties" added to fel or "reds" for that matter, most people that pvp today don't even play their reds as much anymore, you could just as easily go grey on a blue and have people unintentionally attack you via EVs or AoE spells/whirlwind. I would argue that Reds not being able to use Virtues is penalty enough, not to mention they can't access most of the game's content.

IMO, there is not enough "Penalty" to Trammel vs the "Benefits" of Fel (There are None, in both, there is Only Penalty in Fel). Which is probably the main reason Fel is pretty much dead.

Well, new content is a separate issue. I'm mainly interested in making Fel exciting for everyone, which will bring more people there, which makes everyone happy. If the PKers aren't risking anything, what fun is that?

The argument about not needing to be red to kill someone is fair (also the question on how to deal with thieves). Perhaps players can simply accumulate PvM points while in a dungeon, and if they kill somebody with low/no PvM points, they get more insurance gold. (as Logrus said)

 

[CovenantX]

Well, new content is a separate issue. I'm mainly interested in making Fel exciting for everyone, which will bring more people there, which makes everyone happy. If the PKers aren't risking anything, what fun is that?
(as Logrus said)

The point is Reds are already risking more than anyone else, The possibility of being freely attacked by everything pvm/pvp even some yellow/unkillable npcs attack red players in guardzone, with no sanctuary other than their own house, almost no interaction with NPCs, a fraction of the games content they're unable to gain access to without exploiting "bugs" to do so illegally, and not able to use virtues. the only thing Blues have to risk (blues not limited to non-fel players mind you) is Insurance gold.

Reds have enough penalties. Making fel Exciting for "Everyone" is including Everyone except reds which are far less common than blues even when factoring in the PvPers.
So if more penalties were in-place for "Reds" why would anyone play a Red when they can do the same thing with a Blue character plus have all the benefits of being blue?

 

[yadiman]

The point is Reds are already risking more than anyone else, The possibility of being freely attacked by everything pvm/pvp even some yellow/unkillable npcs attack red players in guardzone, with no sanctuary other than their own house, almost no interaction with NPCs, a fraction of the games content they're unable to gain access to without exploiting "bugs" to do so illegally, and not able to use virtues. the only thing Blues have to risk (blues not limited to non-fel players mind you) is Insurance gold.

Reds have enough penalties. Making fel Exciting for "Everyone" is including Everyone except reds which are far less common than blues even when factoring in the PvPers.
So if more penalties were in-place for "Reds" why would anyone play a Red when they can do the same thing with a Blue character plus have all the benefits of being blue?

Well like I said, change it to where it's not a penalty for reds, but for anyone who dies to a character with PvM points. Because the PvMer is likely to have temporarily cursed loot that he is risking. And if 1 person with PvM points kills another with points, insurance is the same as it is now.

The red issue....I don't care if they turn reds into blues in trammel. Maybe there's an RP factor, but people can just x-fer their skills to a blue.

 

[Gospel]

The development time it would take to implement this idea is not worth the minor effect it would have a large majority of the playerbase. Fel has had exclusive rewards for years, it doesn't attract people that don't like nonconsentual pvp. Some of these changes make sense, but the concept as a whole does not.

 

[Luvmylace]

IMHO ,what would be fun and a test of real worth, would be to revamp only one dungeon with most of the above suggestions and make the rewards all fall here no Teleporter .that's a cheat but the most Ubber the deeper you go .that way only people who want it will do that dungeon. It would vary the dungeons ,make Fel people happy and maybe get more adventurous people there

 

[Wenchkin]

Long post warning....

Firstly, old Fel thrills are history, you can't bring the past back. Mostly because the community is totally different to the old one. They like totally different things to the players I used to hang out with, I have very little in common with today's players and I'm sure I'm not the only vet like that. Players want different things now, and really it's too late to turn back the clock on the player mindset. I remember a real pioneer in the wilderness feel to old UO, having to fight reds to protect RP towns while weaker folks stayed inside a tavern, chasing down reds and thieves. Then being chased down the road a few hours later because same rogues saw you alone lol. I had a blast, there was a real tingle in just walking between towns, which you did just to see who was lurking at the X-roads. But we can't go back to that now. I wish we could, you have no idea how much heh. You had no Tram to retreat to, but it was also a lot easier to learn and ready yourself for PvP. I was PvPing from day 1 and loved every minute, win or lose. Nowadays? I wouldn't touch PvP with any length of electric cattle prod. There's nothing there that appeals to me now. Just silly super equipped players with ridiculous templates that would make mincemeat out of anything I want to play there. I still consider Fel my home, but I avoid PvP at all costs now. I had more luck as a day old newbie than my vet chars would now.

Taking away the retreat option for your victims means even fewer players will come play that role. When dungeon recalls were nuked with champs, I stopped hunting Fel dungeons. I was in there PvMing and PvPing daily till that point. Then became a sitting duck waiting for a gank party. With removal of stat loss there was no point in me even trying to kill a red, or counting anyone who killed me. There is no fun in that sort of scenario unless you're dominating the players when you raid. Even then, I'd get bored of that in 5 mins.

IMHO, PvP needs 2 things to attract new entrants -

1. A good reason for fighting and fighting back. Gold/items can be acquired safely in Tram with much less hassle. Even if items couldn't be traded, I still wouldn't get killed trying to acquire them lol. Nobody cares if they die and lose any insurance gold, there is no real negative penalty for someone you defeat any more. Certainly not to the level it used to be with stat loss. Stat loss wasn't perfect, but I want the well equipped/uber template players to have something to lose - otherwise why fight above my skill level? I know I'm going to die plenty in the process, so tell me what exactly am I fighting for? I'm not really that fussed if I beat "xx PK xx" It's not as if there's a league table anywhere that notes my success. Give me a solid reason for fighting back and I'll get my red hunting boots on again and start fighting some more. Currently the rewards do not justify the efforts. I'll trade Tram stuff with Fel players and get the stuff that way. There's a good reason for my crafters to work solely in Fel, but my fighters? Nopes

2. It needs to be easier for someone to retreat, not harder. If a less experienced player has no choice but die repeatedly to groups of PvPers, they're not going to stick around. Nobody is that stupid, sorry. If your victim doesn't think they have a chance, you won't see them. Once upon a time you could recall in and out of dungeons where you wanted to be. Reds still killed me plenty with that scenario. If you saw 6 guys coming at you, you could try to recall/gate out. You had a choice, but often they'd dispel your gate as you tried pulling pets out, or interrupt a recall so it wasn't fail safe. If you saw a good solo red name on screen you knew you were probably still going to get squashed. But I felt I had some choice in which fights I took on and a chance at escaping an attacker. I took on plenty of fights, but I'm not going to play sitting duck for 6 v 1 ganks.

The only nerf I'd take to my escaping side of things is taking out logout to save pets, but players need to have more choice, not less.

And the most important thing - Fel is a facet not just a place to PvP. What we need isn't more stuff to fight over, it's encounters that players can do without having some raid party jump on them. Fel doesn't just need more PvPers it needs more PLAYERS, people living and crafting there and PvMing or RPing. Fel is about much more than PvP, champs and factions.

Wenchy

 

[Warpig Inc]

Adding more carrots to the end of the stick won't make the mule go faster. To often the mule doesn't get it's way and plants ass and brays till happy.

New lands with better enviroment restrictions. Gold coins a rarety so select things can be insured. Hell the underwater theme land ideal could give that new structured PVP world players desire. The needed clean sheet for PVPer to puzzle out and reexperience yester year.

 

[CovenantX]

Why do people always use the whole "Sheep to Wolves" expression? It's not about "Sheep to Wolves", It's about "Wolves to Wolves"...


The "Majority of the player-base" as well... everyone bringing this up, well the Majority now and then has always been in trammel since the Trammel split... but, Fel had a Big enough player-base for most of the time After AoS for it to speak for itself, not anymore. Bringing up the "Majority" now just helps insure Fel has less of a chance to get something to help it, and well the game would continue to dwindle down in players because... PvPers are players too.

Trammel has more players then, and now... and it's not because people are coming back or new players are joining just for trammel... It's because people are quitting, more of the pvpers have went to atlantic, more pvpers have quit...

If you don't PvP, you probably have no interest in Fel, So why would you even bother to take any proposes down if they're meant to improve an aspect YOU don't like? Selfish, no? It effects PvM? or PvM in FEL? there's a difference...

Is it because Trammel-only players have become so use to getting 99% of the content, and can't stand the fact PvPers are asking for something new for them? They're the same thing btw.

 

[CovenantX]

And the most important thing - Fel is a facet not just a place to PvP. What we need isn't more stuff to fight over, it's encounters that players can do without having some raid party jump on them. Fel doesn't just need more PvPers it needs more PLAYERS, people living and crafting there and PvMing or RPing. Fel is about much more than PvP, champs and factions.

Wenchy

I agreed with this: "And the most important thing - Fel is a facet not just a place to PvP."

You lost me here: "What we need isn't more stuff to fight over, it's encounters that players can do without having some raid party jump on them."

I didn't agree with the second statement because That is what Trammel is for... Being in fel isn't only about PvP, since the trammel split it's been about risks & rewards (lacking the rewards part). but excluding the only play-style exclusive to fel (PvP) would just hurt it further... (this is the current path we've been on for quite some time, )

"Fel doesn't just need more PvPers it needs more PLAYERS"

Hehe, Pvpers are players.


"People living and crafting there and PvMing or RPing. Fel is about much more than PvP, champs and factions."

Fel has people living there & crafting there, Those are mostly safe, and that part has no problem.
RPing can be done anywhere, adding more elements to it would make it potentially more entertaining, no ?


Nothing is stopping the PvMers from coming to fel, except the lack of incentives to pvm in Fel. Power-Scrolls have since lost their value, later translating into pvpers losing lots of interest in fighting over them. Fel was extremely active when power-scrolls came out, because FEL was the Only place to get them.

 

[Lythos-]

The possibilities to improve fel are endless without going to extremes or giving exclusive content.

Want more players in towns?
Crafters in towns: Create a nifty storyline! Maybe Blackthorn decided to study from the gargoyles and creates a soulforge inside the fel castle. It might have a slightly higher chance to imbue an item than the Ter Mur counterpart would and possibly could lead up to another storyline adding in a Fel version of the underworld (enterance could be the brit sewers). Make reforging or using a runic in fel towns give slightly higher intensities (not enough to become unbalanced or unfair, just enough to make it worthwhile). Armor repair NPC's that decrease odds of losing durability. Give the fel community a reason to become a community again.

PvMers: Use the city loyalty. Players loyal to certain towns could do a quest type turn in. Turning certain items in would lead up to an invasion. The invaders could drop shame style loot or increase in difficulty like a spawn leading to a super boss that could drop a random doom arty. Exclude brit in this. (this is just a rough idea)


Remove Harrowers in revamped dungeons. Remove the anti recall in Fel dungeons. Ice dungeon is a prime example of this as well as Pap and Del. Increase spawn rates again, decrease gold drop (to kill gold farmers) add slightly higher chance for good loot and for the love of god, remove half the mobs in shame and wrong (this goes for both facets). 6-10 beefed up blood elementals should not be hanging out in gang fashion. There's barely a chance of living crawling the Tram side entrance to end not to mention getting stam blocked in the fel side.

 

[Wenchkin]

You lost me here: "What we need isn't more stuff to fight over, it's encounters that players can do without having some raid party jump on them."

I didn't agree with the second statement because That is what Trammel is for... Being in fel isn't only about PvP, since the trammel split it's been about risks & rewards (lacking the rewards part). but excluding the only play-style exclusive to fel (PvP) would just hurt it further... (this is the current path we've been on for quite some time, )

There is a difference between that sanitised cotton-wool of Tram and having a slightly better chance of surviving a PvP encounter in Fel. In ye old days I got my butt handed to me regularly, even when I was good at PvP. Whether I tried to gate out or run I still didn't escape a good PvPer. Unless PvPers suck nowadays, surely they are just as capable of catching me as their predecessors? I am not talking about excluding PvP at all, I loved PvPing when I felt I had a chance of surviving and could say "screw you" to a raid of 6 and occasionally escape. Really, I'm not going to play cannon fodder, why would anyone be that dumb?

In Fel it takes longer getting to and from a spawn, Fel monsters can block you so it's a wee bit more dangerous, and you're sitting duck for raiders because you can't go anywhere when they arrive. Why would anyone want to do that, even for double the loot and more? I just buy the stuff in Tram, not because I don't want any horrid PvPers killing me. Because I'm not playing when the odds are stacked entirely against me. If I kill someone, there's stuff all reward and they're back chewing my butt probably before I'm out the dungeon lol.

"Fel doesn't just need more PvPers it needs more PLAYERS"

Hehe, Pvpers are players.

LOL! You know what I mean Once upon a time Fellies had more Fel shops, taverns to hang out in while they worked off counts. Or just for fun. I had a red come vorpal bunny hunting with our guild and some RP pixies once, PvPers were usually my favourite customers and best friends. I know PvPers are players, but I'd like to see more non PvPers coming to Fel, dipping a toe in PvP or just settling there. Or just find someone at the bank instead of sitting parked up at Luna. I even miss thieves chasing me round Skara bank, some were fantastic fun RPers!

"People living and crafting there and PvMing or RPing. Fel is about much more than PvP, champs and factions."

Fel has people living there & crafting there, Those are mostly safe, and that part has no problem.
RPing can be done anywhere, adding more elements to it would make it potentially more entertaining, no ?

I always crafted and gathered in Fel, lucky my old home was right near all the resources I needed lol. Was a little bit too safe in recent years, and certainly the crafters seem to have thinned out over the years, but I don't think that's just in Fel. More elements for RP would be good, I've always based my RP in Fel because you could interact with people without being warred etc. Tram fighting is horrid, just hated going to fight there.

Nothing is stopping the PvMers from coming to fel, except the lack of incentives to pvm in Fel. Power-Scrolls have since lost their value, later translating into pvpers losing lots of interest in fighting over them. Fel was extremely active when power-scrolls came out, because FEL was the Only place to get them.

From my perspective, why take extra risks/time to do PvM in Fel instead of Tram for the same resulting loot? Even better loot - buy it from a Fellie and save the hassle. New loot- same deal. I don't want too much safety, I loved that "who's next" feeling in Fel and the rush of having a good old scrap with someone. But I'm not a sitting duck for any amount of loot and that's what I became lol. I'll just supply a few PvPers with crafted stuff like pots and trade for items that way. Champs bored me more than alchemy did...

I hope they revamp or rework champs in a big way, but I'm guessing it might not be a high priority. Fel in general is low down the list because so many of the players are based in Tram and just don't want Fel getting dev attention.

Wenchy

 

[CovenantX]

From my perspective, why take extra risks/time to do PvM in Fel instead of Tram for the same resulting loot? Even better loot - buy it from a Fellie and save the hassle. New loot- same deal. I don't want too much safety, I loved that "who's next" feeling in Fel and the rush of having a good old scrap with someone. But I'm not a sitting duck for any amount of loot and that's what I became lol. I'll just supply a few PvPers with crafted stuff like pots and trade for items that way. Champs bored me more than alchemy did...

This is what it all boils down too, "From my perspective, why take extra risks/time to do PvM in Fel instead of Tram for the same resulting loot?" This shouldn't even be a factor at all, loot should ALWAYS be better when there are added risks involved. if not loot, Something needs to be better to counter-balance all the added risks, not just PvP, but not being able to walk through the mobs,,, and of course the whole recalling in/out of dungeons isn't a possibility in fel either.

I hope they revamp or rework champs in a big way,

Me too its obviously much needed.

but I'm guessing it might not be a high priority. Fel in general is low down the list because so many of the players are based in Tram and just don't want Fel getting dev attention.

Yes, I agree with this (unfortunately it seems true), but the question is; Why would "Trammies" not want fel to get dev's attention?

 

[cazador]

Why would "Trammies" not want fel to get dev's attention?[/B]

Here's a hint..it's greenish it has numbers on it...you put it in your bank...it's what this game is about has no one realized it...

 

[Ashlynn_L]

While I'm all for the PvP community getting some attention (I hope a revised Order/Chaos system delivers on that front for example), I just want to say that you're not going to get non-PvPers to play in a PvP environment. You can keep trying to lure people there but the moment they encounter the PvP and decide they don't like it, they won't come back. And if you force it on them in Trammel, they'll move to a different game instead of to a different facet.

 

[yadiman]

Well, bringing more people to fel would be pointless if someone could recall the instant they see someone. Perhaps, just change recall to a 15 sec cast time in fel dungeons. And I understand the point that Fel will never be the same as it used to be, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

And as far as having only 1 dungeon like this, i think it would just end up with 1 guild dominating the dungeon. Maybe if there's 2 dungeons, but I'd like to see some small scale skirmishes which wouldn't likely happen unless most of the dungeons are like this.

BTW, another idea, instead of arties dropping, brittle loot is increased to 155, & "cannot repair" to 255

 

[Tanivar]

Yes, I agree with this (unfortunately it seems true), but the question is; Why would "Trammies" not want fel to get dev's attention?

The dev time put into fel benefits very few and typically it's just bait to draw in players from Tram for the PKers to kill so they don't get to bored and close their accounts. Most Player pay a game's monthly fee to have fun, not to be fun for others. It's that simple.

 

[CovenantX]

The dev time put into fel benefits very few and typically it's just bait to draw in players from Tram for the PKers to kill so they don't get to bored and close their accounts. Most Player pay a game's monthly fee to have fun, not to be fun for others. It's that simple.

You know, PvPers are paying customers as well, if they leave, there are less overall people- less overall people, is less $$$ for EA/Mythic. and well you know where I'm going with this.

As Ive said In another post here

Why do people always use the whole "Sheep to Wolves" expression? It's not about "Sheep to Wolves", It's about "Wolves to Wolves"...


The "Majority of the player-base" as well... everyone bringing this up, well the Majority now and then has always been in trammel since the Trammel split... but, Fel had a Big enough player-base for most of the time After AoS for it to speak for itself, not anymore. Bringing up the "Majority" now just helps insure Fel has less of a chance to get something to help it, and well the game would continue to dwindle down in players because... PvPers are players too.

...

Is it because Trammel-only players have become so use to getting 99% of the content, and can't stand the fact PvPers are asking for something new for them? They're the same thing btw.

"Why do people always use the whole "Sheep to Wolves" expression? It's not about "Sheep to Wolves", It's about "Wolves to Wolves"... This would mean, PvPers vs PvPers, Not Trammies vs PvPers...

Is it wrong to give trammel everything just because they have "more" players? I would guarantee, If YOU were a PvPer you would have the same exact opinion as most of us (PvPers).

 

[Wenchkin]

Well, bringing more people to fel would be pointless if someone could recall the instant they see someone. Perhaps, just change recall to a 15 sec cast time in fel dungeons. And I understand the point that Fel will never be the same as it used to be, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

If PvPers could rush in and interrupt my recalls or dispel gates years ago, surely your peers can manage the same nowadays? If you stack the odds entirely in favour of a raid or PK, you will never get anyone dumb enough to be your victim. It's that simple. The old casting delay was fine, I don't see the need to extend it.

When I say you can't get old Fel back, it's not about trying. I did, for years. EA are trying to please the UO players of today's game, not that 12 years+ ago. Many of who quit UO already. You need to set your goal at a modern improvement of today's game, because it is too long since the hey-days of Fel. Remaining players mostly seem to want different things now. The players who stuck around are ones who enjoy playing the game as EA shaped it. Players who quit are the ones who didn't like what EA did.

And as far as having only 1 dungeon like this, i think it would just end up with 1 guild dominating the dungeon. Maybe if there's 2 dungeons, but I'd like to see some small scale skirmishes which wouldn't likely happen unless most of the dungeons are like this.

T2A is a large landmass which has already been messed up with champs. For years I've suggested taking the champs or restricted combat into that big mass and returning recall to the dungeons and such. But T2A plus some good dungeons is just over the top considering how many people do spawns.

Wenchy

 

[Lady Michelle]

I know, I just don't give up heh. I've seen something similar too, but anyways...

In an attempt to bring back Feluccia to the original thrill. I'm proposing that all artifacts/scrolls in game would be droppable from feluccia dungeons from any mob. These artifacts would be uninsurable until removed from the dungeon, and they would also prevent stealth (or have a glow). It also needs to become harder to simply run away from a fight. Dungeon teleporters and star room moongate should be deleted, and gates/entrance/exits to different levels of the same dungeon should have a 15 sec activate timer and dismount the player. The deeper someone is inside a dungeon, the greater chance of an artifact. At the deepest levels, there should be a significantly greater chance at getting something for your time spent compared to farming a trammel boss. Certain smaller dungeons which lack gates/multiple levels could have them added at various chokepoints and serve to increase the dungeon "level". Murderers would also have significantly increased insurance costs inside these dungeons. In addition, gathering resources and gold loot can also be doubled, but would have to greatly increase recall cast time when a player is not within a town or home.

Also, with specific "Dungeons of the day" that increase rewards, characters could further increase the risk/reward system. Dungeons of the day would also insure that people could still easily find a group for trammel bosses.

Champion spawns could then turn into events for large group fighting. Yes, my limited # champ spawn idea again. Could lower the difficulty of the encounter so PvP characters can complete it easily.

Prevent stealth?
Seriously might also have prevents casting spells or prevents a warrior using their weapon. If you want things to be unsurable then you take the chance of a thief yoinking it from ya. NOT I want it to be unsurable, but WAH WAH!!! I don't want a thief to come along, and yoink it off me please oh please prevent stealthing.
Harder to run away from a fight?
Seriously doesn't it really upset you that much that someone runs from a fight, that you want the devs to add making it hard to run away from a fight. This one might back fire in your face you ever think about it? Devs decided to add this in, and then you are be killed left, and right because now you can't run from a fight.
Week later after this is put in you will be coming to post that you want it taken out of the game.
PvP characters can complete it easily? PVPers don't work champ spawns they raid Champ spawns.

 

[CovenantX]

Prevent stealth?
Seriously might also have prevents casting spells or prevents a warrior using their weapon. If you want things to be unsurable then you take the chance of a thief yoinking it from ya. NOT I want it to be unsurable, but WAH WAH!!! I don't want a thief to come along, and yoink it off me please oh please prevent stealthing.
Harder to run away from a fight?
Seriously doesn't it really upset you that much that someone runs from a fight, that you want the devs to add making it hard to run away from a fight. This one might back fire in your face you ever think about it? Devs decided to add this in, and then you are be killed left, and right because now you can't run from a fight.
Week later after this is put in you will be coming to post that you want it taken out of the game.
PvP characters can complete it easily? PVPers don't work champ spawns they raid Champ spawns.

I'm pretty sure the whole point of making it "Hard" is because fel gets nothing, and if it was "Easy" it would drop in value extremely fast making a new fel addition short-lived.

 

[Lady Michelle]

I'm pretty sure the whole point of making it "Hard" is because fel gets nothing, and if it was "Easy" it would drop in value extremely fast making a new fel addition short-lived.

Fel gets nothing? So making it harder is going to get more for fel ? or maybe making it harder will keep more players out of fel so less competition in fel for scrolls, and arties? that is my opinion

 

[CovenantX]

"Why do people always use the whole "Sheep to Wolves" expression? It's not about "Sheep to Wolves", It's about "Wolves to Wolves"... This would mean, PvPers vs PvPers, Not Trammies vs PvPers...

Is it wrong to give trammel everything just because they have "more" players? I would guarantee, If YOU were a PvPer you would have the same exact opinion as most of us (PvPers).

Yes harder, I'm not referring to the stuff we have now, I'm hopin something like this would be for whatever new comes to champ spawns from the up-coming revamp.

 

[CovenantX]

Fel gets nothing? So making it harder is going to get more for fel ? or maybe making it harder will keep more players out of fel so less competition in fel for scrolls, and arties? that is my opinion

Why do you think the Primeval Lich & Abyssal infernal aren't weren't such a hit? It was too easy for people to leave, and the rewards weren't worth fighting over. When I say too easy for people to leave, I don't mean "Trammies" I mean Anyone Pvpers too...

 

[Gospel]

Ugh, amazing that there's any sort of debate still going on here.

Felucca needs more stuff for pvpers and general Fel players alike. Trying to lure Trammel players there for cannon fodder is NOT the solution. Placing ridiculous restrictions on players is the worst suggestion yet by a player that excels at coming up with them.

I was an avid PVPer and Fel loyalist for years until I realized; there's literally NOTHING to gain from it. PVP needs a purpose or a reward, something to fight for. Otherwise it's just Yew house hiding ganking ********. The most exciting pvp matches I ever saw were organized tournaments or players giving away cash or houses for the champion duellist. Yew pvp is throwaway garbage and I think most pvpers would agree with me.

Reds should not be penalized in pvp, if anything they should be rewarded for comitting to a life of combat and not only playing as hunter but also as hunted.

The wars over champ spawns were some of the most epic field fights I ever fought in. Why can't things like this be regularly added? Give us something to fight for, and not double artifacts with ridiculous restrictions on players. That is asinine. Felucca players are already playing the "hard mode" of the game. Adding restrictions is just stupid.

Take away the bogus spawn dungeon teleporters, stop making players jump through hoops. Let them recall or gate to spawn entry points.

God I could go on for hours about this but typing on an iPhone is like pulling teeth. Yadiman, I'm sure you have good intentions but your suggestions are not logical. CovenantX is a smart guy and knows his ****. Stop ignoring his points and take his advice. And stop trying to squeeze in weird ideas you thought of when you were high.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Why do you think the Primeval Lich & Abyssal infernal aren't weren't such a hit? It was too easy for people to leave, and the rewards weren't worth fighting over. When I say too easy for people to leave, I don't mean "Trammies" I mean Anyone Pvpers too...

See you have a point here on 2 champs being easy to leave by anyone. But they might of been made this way to get more trammel players do a fel champ as you say the rewards are not worth fighting over.

 

[yadiman]

I'm pretty sure the whole point of making it "Hard" is because fel gets nothing, and if it was "Easy" it would drop in value extremely fast making a new fel addition short-lived.

Limited champ spawns would make the PvM difficulty not matter as much as simply winning the fight. The only problem would be the large disparity of populations among the shards. Could have more spawns open on high pop shards.

Prevent stealth?
Seriously might also have prevents casting spells or prevents a warrior using their weapon. If you want things to be unsurable then you take the chance of a thief yoinking it from ya. NOT I want it to be unsurable, but WAH WAH!!! I don't want a thief to come along, and yoink it off me please oh please prevent stealthing.
Harder to run away from a fight?
Seriously doesn't it really upset you that much that someone runs from a fight, that you want the devs to add making it hard to run away from a fight. This one might back fire in your face you ever think about it? Devs decided to add this in, and then you are be killed left, and right because now you can't run from a fight.
Week later after this is put in you will be coming to post that you want it taken out of the game.
PvP characters can complete it easily? PVPers don't work champ spawns they raid Champ spawns.

If you could stealth, as soon as you get an artie, you just stealth right out of the dungeon. Where is the risk in that? And yes, I realize that making it harder to run would mean I would die more. But maybe similar to what Wenchy said, the PvPers are gone, and all that's left are Epeen'ers who would pancake and moan cuz they die more easily.

If PvPers could rush in and interrupt my recalls or dispel gates years ago, surely your peers can manage the same nowadays? If you stack the odds entirely in favour of a raid or PK, you will never get anyone dumb enough to be your victim. It's that simple. The old casting delay was fine, I don't see the need to extend it.

When I say you can't get old Fel back, it's not about trying. I did, for years. EA are trying to please the UO players of today's game, not that 12 years+ ago. Many of who quit UO already. You need to set your goal at a modern improvement of today's game, because it is too long since the hey-days of Fel. Remaining players mostly seem to want different things now. The players who stuck around are ones who enjoy playing the game as EA shaped it. Players who quit are the ones who didn't like what EA did.
Wenchy

Well, blues could also work together to beat the PKs. They could give the loot to 1 character and make sure that char lives, or just simply kill the PKs. Increased insurance costs could make it even more profitable for the blues.

But anyways, what other ways could they improve Fel for the current players (even tho I don't think we should forget about new/returning players)? Simply adding new loot /monsters to champ spawns would not really improve the Fel experience IMO.

 

[yadiman]

God I could go on for hours about this but typing on an iPhone is like pulling teeth. Yadiman, I'm sure you have good intentions but your suggestions are not logical. CovenantX is a smart guy and knows his ****. Stop ignoring his points and take his advice. And stop trying to squeeze in weird ideas you thought of when you were high.

Most of my points are similar to his. Ex: risk vs. reward. Also about wanting more wolves vs. wolves fights. We just differ on how to achieve wolf vs wolf.

 

[Tanivar]

Also about wanting more wolves vs. wolves fights. We just differ on how to achieve wolf vs wolf.

One way to get more wolf vs wolf fights would be to get the Fel schoolyard bully PKer types to get a pair and start hunting Pvpers who will give a good fight instead of PvMers or Crafters who can't.

Full combat template Pkers who kill crafting template opponets and dance over the body claiming how tough and studly they are are not wolves, their mangy stray mutts. They want to be wolves, they need to start acting like wolves.

 

[CovenantX]

One way to get more wolf vs wolf fights would be to get the Fel schoolyard bully PKer types to get a pair and start hunting Pvpers who will give a good fight instead of PvMers or Crafters who can't.

Full combat template Pkers who kill crafting template opponets and dance over the body claiming how tough and studly they are are not wolves, their mangy stray mutts. They want to be wolves, they need to start acting like wolves.

What shard do you play on, where have you seen anything like this?
most importantly.. How long ago did such a thing happen?

I would actually give almost anything to see an actual PKer fight anything on any shard, even remotely close to the way you describe.

Full-combat templates (Pkers) aren't any different from PvM characters by the way. It's the mentality, and item-property caps, (aka, Details) that would make a "trammie" no good at pvp compared to a "Pker". beyond the obvious; lack of pvp experience.

Basically, a Well-skilled PvPer, can kill ANYONE on ANY TEMPLATE (excluding a crafter, not to say it isn't possible, but not likely to see one engage in pvp at all), regardless if the template was meant for pvp OR pvm.

 

[Tanivar]

What shard do you play on, where have you seen anything like this?
most importantly.. How long ago did such a thing happen?

Fel of Great Lakes at first, then fel of Chessie between 2000 & 2003 as a common thing, then off & on going for double resources with a character wearing normal clothes hoping the @$@!!'s would take the hint that they wouldn't get any fight out of the character they were about to kill and would leave him alone. No such luck. Every red that appeared killed my character and most of them stood over the dead normal clothes forager and gave me the "I Pwned you" "I'm a super duper Tough Stud and I kicked your <beep!>", etc, etc b.s. It was such a sure thing that I finally wrote off fel as asshat land and started playing just the other facets of Chessie. Likely they were leftover asshats from the pre-tram days.

 

[CovenantX]

Fel of Great Lakes at first, then fel of Chessie between 2000 & 2003 as a common thing, then off & on going for double resources with a character wearing normal clothes hoping the @$@!!'s would take the hint that they wouldn't get any fight out of the character they were about to kill and would leave him alone. No such luck. Every red that appeared killed my character and most of them stood over the dead normal clothes forager and gave me the "I Pwned you" "I'm a super duper Tough Stud and I kicked your <beep!>", etc, etc b.s. It was such a sure thing that I finally wrote off fel as asshat land and started playing just the other facets of Chessie. Likely they were leftover asshats from the pre-tram days.

They're not PvP'ers, they're baddies or "ass-hats" as you say. I wouldn't say this is very accurate of saying this is "all fel is, was, or ever will be". <this was the misconception intended to be discussed in all the threads locked recently. you would think people playing in the pre-tram days would have become more mature by now, but they still do play, you see some of them over general chat... I'm sure.


The people you described are one of two types of players I like to pvp against, because when they die, (and they will) they've been "put in their place", so-to-speak... although I'd much rather pvp against "Good, Pvpers" (the second type)... , If there's no challenge, there is no fun. Which is why I'm not interested in "luring" Sheep to Wolves...


On a Somewhat/but not so-related note:
General-chat warriors: most of them are "baddies" too. They seem to like to try and make people "rage" because it's the only thing they might "win" at.
I've seen numerous posts on stratics about PvP-chat "ruining" game-play for non-pvpers...

The simple answer to fix the "PvP-chat": would be to, auto-switch chat-channels upon entering a different facet (Tram-ruleset/Fel-ruleset specifically)... Most pvpers, (myself included) are too Lazy to switch chat-channels for any reason to talk to anyone, and if pvpers Would talk any "trash" it wouldn't be in trammel-gen-chat, it would be in fel-gen-chat. That being said, most pvp-chat, takes place while one, or more of the people involved are in stat-loss... lol... make them not ABLE to leave fel, while in stat, (people sit in luna to wait stat out...)

 

[Thanatos]

Here is a possible solution to bring more of the PVP, & PVM communities together in Fel.

Let's say a group of PVM'ers want to venture to Fel for a little hunting so they hire some players as guards against PVPer's/PK griefer's.

Here is how it would work.

1. A representative from the PVM group would go to a vendor and initiate a "Contract" showing meeting location, hunting location, group size, date & time of hunt.
2. This contract would require a certain amount of gold based upon the number of PVM'ers in the group & number of guards wanted. All gold is to be distributed to the guards (more on that later).
3. Each member of the group would have to "sign" the contract and give their share of the gold. This could be done by giving the initiating member a contract in their bag that each member should double click and drop their gold on. Once done the player is considered part of the hunting party.
4. Once every member of the hunting party has signed the contract it will be returned to the vendor and a notice placed on a "help wanted" board in Fel/Trammel towns.
5. Anyone wanting to be a guard would select the job from the board and be shown the number of party to be guarded and "Pay". They will then sign the contract them selves.
6. One all positions for guards have been filled each person will have a copy of the contract dropped in their backpack showing they are good to go on the hunt and will have access to a special chat channel so they can all agree upon the designated meeting place (to be determined by the hunting party but not at the hunting site) date and time for the hunt.
7. When ready for the hunt all members will double click their contract and be transported to the designated meeting place. When every one is there the representative from the hunting party will double click the contract and the entire group will be transport to a random spot ( the entire group will go to the same place) a short distance from their designated hunting ground and the hunt can begin.
8. Once the hunt begins all members of the contract will be put in a special party which allows them to heal each other (looting optional and will be selected when signing the contract) but not harm each other. So the guards can't turn on the ones they agreed to protect and the hunters can't turn on their guards. The guards must also stay within a certain distance to the hunting group to prevent them from just running off and killing other players elsewhere for the kills or abandoning the party yet still collecting pay. The guards will be given a warning when getting to far away and will no longer be considered part of the party if they leave.
9. Once the hunt is over the hunting party rep will double click the contract again and each member of the contract will be given a special gump asking if they are ready to end the hunt. Once every one agrees it is over the guards will be paid a percentage of the money placed on the contract based upon how many kills (only kills of real players count) they had guarding the "hunters" with a bonus placed on how often they healed or rezed a member of the hunting party. All money will be paid out to the guards so if they protect the hunting party but only have to heal and rez them from the monsters they are hunting they will still get paid and get the bonus for healing and rezing. The entire group will then have a 5 minute timer before the party is officially disbanded to allow each other to safely go their own way.

I am sure the above can be tweaked a good bit but it is a starting point.