-
Hail Guest! We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
-
Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
-
Hail Guest!, Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
-
Hail Guest! Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!
C
Care Bears Rulez
Guest
you cant do anything in animal form but run (or whatever the bonus is you use) you can't use specials or cast...why should you be able to interrupt it?
J
[JD]
Guest
also ninjitsu is meant to be a fighting skill and usable in combat, I believe it even says so in several of the descriptions. you can't form while dismounted, so enjoy the 5 sec to try to trap/para/kill someone, but then they may form.
C
Care Bears Rulez
Guest
itsa ninja thing...you wouldn't understand =]
This spell can be interrupted, with a paralyze or if their mana drops below the minimum needed to cast after they have started casting.
That's not an actual interruption of the spell though. Those are other means of stopping the character or they just don't the mana to successfully cast the spell that's not a true interruption. Example someone trying to transform into any other transformation besides a ninjitsu form can be weaken spammed and never achieve there transformation.
I don't know very many dexxers who play without resist. The few that don't most often are using a smoke bomb if put in that predicament. BTW, good luck casting mana vamp faster than an animal form.
There was until dexxers complained about it. Because of those people who complained there are now 100s who exploit it. (I don't think you should be able to use higher movement animal form without proper skill in hiding/stealth)
Is there a rule I missed somewhere that states that EVERY transformation spell must be able to be interrupted?
Is this just a "thats weird, I wonder why" post?
I wonder.
No offense but IMO the only people i ever see upset with animal form are gankers & dismounters. "Omg! my gank squad dismounted someone & they got away because of animal form! Nerf it right now!!"
Do the Devs really need to spend time & resources to help/promote ganking?
Gankers & dismounters(even 1 vs 1) are IMO very sad pvpers. The lowest of the low.
Exploit what? How is using a legal spell exploiting?
Dexxers? who said anything specific about dexxers?
Would it ever be possible for you to debate anything without bringing class/template into it? I doubt it.
In your first reply you state - "The few that don't most often are using a smoke bomb if put in that predicament"
In your second reply you state - "I don't think you should be able to use higher movement animal form without proper skill in hiding/stealth"
Wtf are you talking about?
I have been away a while but doesnt it still take a minimum of hiding to use the smoke bomb?
Meaning that the players you are ridiculously calling exploiters ARE using animal form WITH the proper secondary skill(hiding)
Ohh, and last time I checked at 120 skill you can still fail Animal Form. And Animal Form renders you damn near 100% lacking in offensive abilities.
Yet you still feel the need to nerf it more? You must be one helluva seriously inept pvp Mage.
*shakes head*
To make use of without any further interest in the skill. For instance, with necro...to summon a familiar you need SS. With Ninja their is no tertiary skill required to use form. So, if a mage picks up 80 points in ninja just to use llama form...I consider it exploiting the skill...since that person has no interest in ninja itself...only the form. Do you think something must be illegal in order to exploit it?
WTH? I didnt say it...UHall did! What I said was simply an observation of time passing.
How many ninja mages do you ever see with hiding and stealth and no resist? I simply made a statement to your guildie regarding his thoughts on interrupt.
Seems pretty simple...I think hiding and stealth should be tied to the skill with regards to forms....just as they are to deathstrike. (I mean...THE WHOLE POINT OF NINJA IS HIDING AND STEALTH!)
Well Sherlock, through deductive reasoning you should have been able to figure out that I was talking about two groups of player. One who has hiding/stealth...the other with no hiding stealth.
I make the differentiation based on if they use tertiary skills...if not they are exploiting ninja IMO.
Oh really? I don't see too many people shooting for wolf form when they transform...
The whole POINT of exploiting the skill was getting away...not kicking ass as a llama.Nerf? No...I want the skill to be tied to its tertiary components. You know, like every other skill in this game. Not my fault the devs. never implemented the fix...
Oh and anytime you want...I would be happy to show you how inept I am.
No, no rule...just balance.
In many instances, you are correct...that is often the first thing that comes to peoples mind is nerf. I do not feel that is the case here. I see people popping into ninja form often 1vs1. To me it is a shame that this game has become so reliant on who can be the fastest to run away.
To delve a bit deeper, did you ever stop to consider that perhaps a lot of ganking stems from people running away? Vicious cycle things turn to then!
No, they need to spend time promoting balance.
This.Nerf? No...I want the skill to be tied to its tertiary components. You know, like every other skill in this game. Not my fault the devs. never implemented the fix...
I'm relating this to anything that increases your movement speed. It's all able to be interrupted. The only thing that isn't is a living mount, and well that's easy enough to deal with if you know what you're doing, poison/para/killing the mount/riding swipe.
It's pretty much mounting your ethy on the run and it can't be interrupted which would be BS, which makes this BS.
You mentioned riding swipe...that's another area that needs adjusted. There should be a timer as well as a chance for the mount to resist it...especially if well trained. Nothing like coming back from a week away, rezzing a pet and seeing that it is still under the effect of riding swipe...lolz.I'm mainly posting this because the dev's stated they want to focus on the game as it is right now and make it better (balanced). So why not point out the little things that need balancing.
Yeah, It should do a hit check on the mount as well. If it misses well the player is only normally dismounted rather then having to heal the mount before remounting.
Nexus
Site Support
Administrator
Moderator
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
The biggest problem I personally have with this idea is........
Thieves..
There aren't many left, and on any shard that has passive reveal (read that as anywhere but Siege) ninjitsu has become practically a necessity.
Now Thieves pretty much need
Hiding
Stealth
Stealing
Snooping
Ninjitsu
There goes over 400 skill points. Let me toss in resist... ok now hmm I need to get around, Chiv or Magery.... there goes more... Wait I still can't defend myself during that cool down after a steal....you know the one that won't let me pop off a smoke bomb, or hide, so I gotta run.
Seriously before folks start complaining about something how about looking at it from outside your own perspective. We all know how if something is changed it's across all play styles in effect generally what might be good for you would be devastating for someone else and there isn't always a good medium. Sometimes you are just going to have to take a hold of the well "nasty" end of the stick.
Thieves..
There aren't many left, and on any shard that has passive reveal (read that as anywhere but Siege) ninjitsu has become practically a necessity.
Now Thieves pretty much need
Hiding
Stealth
Stealing
Snooping
Ninjitsu
There goes over 400 skill points. Let me toss in resist... ok now hmm I need to get around, Chiv or Magery.... there goes more... Wait I still can't defend myself during that cool down after a steal....you know the one that won't let me pop off a smoke bomb, or hide, so I gotta run.
Seriously before folks start complaining about something how about looking at it from outside your own perspective. We all know how if something is changed it's across all play styles in effect generally what might be good for you would be devastating for someone else and there isn't always a good medium. Sometimes you are just going to have to take a hold of the well "nasty" end of the stick.
Are you saying this would somehow effect the players that have the intended paired skills of ninjitsu? I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make here.
Nexus
Site Support
Administrator
Moderator
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
You can't stealth mounted, Thieves rely on that animal form spell since they as a general rule have no real room for defensive skills in their templates, Animal form is their Resist, in some cases healing, and Parry all rolled into one since they have to wait a skill cool down between making a steal and being able to hide. Now this generally applies to non-faction thieves, which there are some left, and making animal form interruptible would devastate that type of players play style.
FC 4 makes it pretty hard to interrupt.
I was not aware thieves were intended to be a class that stayed around after making a heist. I always thought the whole idea behind a thief was to steal and go. Before ninja thieves never had animal form, and were able to work perfectly fine without it.
As far as their defense...there is hiding, there is wrestle. I really do not see a need for resist considering the template. If they really feel like it is needed they can drop eval for it. Regardless, thieves are a specialized template...ninja thieves even moreso. Like any specialized template, there are supposed to be drawbacks to keep it in check...in this case we are talking about a char who is not there to fight...but only to steal. Add in smoke bombs and invis pots and there are several ways to get away and survive.
As far as saying that animal form NEEDS to be uninterruptable or unpurgeable, well I feel that is assenine. It is castable on the run at 4/6 speed, something needs to give.
You cant compare a thief using his skills to a dexer/archer using those skills. A thief has one chance and one chance only to get the steal that they want. If a thief is noticed that chance becomes zero. A dexer/archer simply stealths away in animal form and repeats the same tactic over and over. In my opinion, its too difficult to sneak up on somebody for a thief and that difficulty of sneaking up has no consequence for the dexer/archer. Both thieves and dexer types can escape far too easily. Its sickening that my thief can be thwarted by a group of noobs dice rolls. These noobs dont even do anything other than stand around in a large group. Zero skill passive detect should not be in the game but there should be much simpler ways to actively detect stealthers. Area effect spells should probably pop stealthers out of hiding as well as the reveal spell. A clever stealther can avoid things like area effects etc. Zero skill, zero effort passive detect dice rolls cannot be avoided however. Samurai Empire stealth rules while temporarily making thieves uber, ultimately ruined thieves because of susequent nerfs aimed at stealth archers which had very little effect on stealth archers but killed the few remaining thieves.
Nexus
Site Support
Administrator
Moderator
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
Before ML Thieves didn't have to worry about Elves and their automatic freebie Passive Reveal that trumps 100 Hiding and 120 stealth...
It wasn't until Elves hit the scene that Ninjitsu became such an important part of the Thieves skill set.
Well, like every other template...there has to be balance. You cannot expect ninja to be foolproof even with hiding and stealth....as the game was designed with counters in mind. In the matter of having ninja but nothing else, I really do not feel ninja form should be as effective as it is...especially to the point to make forms unbreakable by mystics.
BTW, I have hiding, stealth, and ninja on my theiving templates. If an elf reveals me, I have smokebombs...animal forms...and invis pots in addition to hiding. That is four ways out...five if you have magery. How many more counters do you think are needed...especially ones that are uninterruptable.
I guarantee if you get passively revealed on a thief your not going to get what you go after. With a zerg of players all standing around like deer in headlights, a dice roll without the deer even knowing your there should not passively reveal. If somehow they dont get a passive reveal off the thief still has to potentialy sneak up to multiple moving targets and snoop. If something worthwhile is there to take(a nice scroll or replica) and the thief does get it, its ridiculously easy to escape. Again players should at least have to do something to reveal a stealther. If all a stealthers going to do is run away the hiding/stealth/ninja skillset is like invunerability. My thief hasnt died in months but not dieing isnt my whole purpose of playing my thief either. Sneaking up on people shouldnt be based on a zero skill dice roll but escape shouldnt be so easy. I say get rid of zero skill passive detect but disallow smokebombs while flagged and make it a bit easier to actively reveal a player with a bit of effort. The whole a blue can no longer reveal a blue thing has to go also. Powerscrolls are cursed for a reason but the whole passive detect thing rewards dumb/lazy/inexperienced players while the ease of escape rewards players exploiting an invulnerable to dieing template if played right.
Nexus
Site Support
Administrator
Moderator
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
Really? Really? These days Thieves have it almost as bad as Reds when it comes to negative benefits.
If I die, I'm freely loot able, regardless of facet with no flagging consequence for the looter.
I can't give counts even if I'm blue.
Oh and for your smoke bombs, Animal Forms, Invis Pots etc.. When you do get revealed what's your odds of getting close to a mark after that? People tend to shy away from a known thief....I've seen entire Faction Battles move away from an area simply because I was revealed and no one wanted to stay near where I might be lurking. I've cleared out the area within 2 screens of Yew gate simply by showing up! I refuse to put a thief in Factions, everyone knows I am an equal opportunity purloiner.
Thieves have always been thieves...the ability to steal from other players has always come with drawbacks, drawbacks agreed by upon entrance into the thieves guild. Nothing new here, and nothing to gripe about.
The gripes you feel with chances to succeed? Success is not always automatic, and shouldn't always be expected. However, when a thief takes the time to make preparation the odds of success improve.
Have issues with elves? Pretty easy to steer clear of them...to me part of the excitement in that situation IS their innate ability.
There are name change tokens, disguise kits...in the instance that you are not able to perform as expected. If people don't know who you are, seems you have little to be excited about.
Anyway, back to ninja form...I think it should be purgeable. Period.
Stealth up snoop the backpack and put 120 magery on last target.
Passively revealed, victim starts to attack me.
Smoke Bomb, mount ethy, run around click use stealing, run up to melee range, Last Target.
GG
Sorry about derailing but why are we talking about thieves...
Thieves in current UO PvP is very insignificant, they are better used in stealing godly consumables and artifacts in trammie land.
Stealing in PvP is nearly worthless...
Bandages which is usually over 12 stone stack...
No one carries regs anymore...
Pots weight double...
Insurance...
Well unless you are on Siege (does disarm steal weapon technique work there?), only thing meaningful is to steal PS and Stat scrolls which anyone half decent shoudnt fall for it ever.
Back to the topic
I dont support changing ninja form in anyway unless they fix the ******** instant dismount that does 50+ damage and works with macros to do instant driveb-by dismount.
Unless dismount is nerfed significantly, dont touch animal form.
Thieves in current UO PvP is very insignificant, they are better used in stealing godly consumables and artifacts in trammie land.
Stealing in PvP is nearly worthless...
Bandages which is usually over 12 stone stack...
No one carries regs anymore...
Pots weight double...
Insurance...
Well unless you are on Siege (does disarm steal weapon technique work there?), only thing meaningful is to steal PS and Stat scrolls which anyone half decent shoudnt fall for it ever.
Back to the topic
I dont support changing ninja form in anyway unless they fix the ******** instant dismount that does 50+ damage and works with macros to do instant driveb-by dismount.
Unless dismount is nerfed significantly, dont touch animal form.
Nexus
Site Support
Administrator
Moderator
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
So the 120 scrolls I nab here and there aren't significant? Or the occasional uninsured arti?, the sweet pinks people get?
If only someone with a 120 magery would attack me. Someone with a 120 magery is most likely going to hide or run for the hills. If the first happens my gm detect no longer detects hims because most likely hes the protector and blue and thats if i even get a chance to snoop him because simply by people standing around theres a very good chance of me being passively detected. Last target really isnt any use when a dice roll gives me up before i even get a chance to use it.
Definitely, well at least not significant enough for me. Considering I solo dsp in about 12 minutes from popping slimes to coon dead... and my protector is usually hiding somewhere keeping my duplicate "rewards" safe. As a classic UO player, where we been thru the whole "godly thievery" era... thieves these days are nothing but minor annoyance.
Assuming no noobies in the group doing the spawn.
The protector will instant invis right before champ dies (if hes also a discorder), or he will flat out be stealthing around.
Capable mages who knows what they are doing will fill everyone in the group with poison fields.
Mages who did the kills would invis b4 champ drop.
and so on...
There are simply too many ways to counter a thief... but that's just for a decent group, I am pretty sure, there are plenty of noobs out there.
Its amazing the hate thieves still get.As far as people falling for getting thier scrolls stolen youd be surprised as to how dumb the vast majority of players still are. The only problem is the developers find it neccessary to protect dumb players with passive detect when there are so many simple ways players can thwart thieves. Cursed items(scrolls) are the one thing of any value left in the game designed for a thief to steal from another player yet passive detect really only effects thieves. Any other stealth template simply runs like a little school girl over and over because quite simply being passively detected has zero consequence for them. Mr swords ninja gets passively revealed? Oh no he has to run off hide/smokebomb etc then wait a few seconds to jump on his target again. Boo Hoo!!!!
Exactly talk to Nexus and see how pulls it off. Btw, to steal something on last target is easier than hitting a moving target with a single tile harm, if you know what ur doing. There are para punches, paralyze spell, and most people dont run when they see a thief popping out, just saying.
Multi cliented protectors use to be great targets with a little tracking and gm detect but unfortunately you cant detect a protector anymore.
Yep, I have never gotten a scroll/pinky/stat stolen since the release of those items... and I do UO 99% PvP. Again, maybe thieves nowdays need to learn how to play? There are easily 10000+ scrolls fallen into my backpack to date, I have yet to lose one to a thief
Maybe it has something to do with me knowing every trick thieves got in the entire UO history?
Stealing something on last target is no issue. You obviously dont understand how stealing works. Anyone that knows me knows my thieving skills are elite. As someone whos been stealing since 99 ive seen many changes from overpoweredness to what we have today. And what we have today is a class thats been butchered to hell and the reason its butchered as bad as it is has nothing to do with thieves themselves. It has to do with other stealth templates that were extremely overpowered and still are but the changes to try to balance those templates did nothing but screw over thieves.