..Great news, from the reactions I've read, but what is it exactly? Is it a way to find a specific player vendor by name, is it individual items on different vendors is it for all of Sosaria or just the cities? Can someone define exactly what it is were so excited about (I am and I'm not even sure what it is ha ha) or give a link to an explanation. Thanks.
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Mesanna approves Vendor Search for October..
- Thread starter Dragonater
- Start date
- Watchers 10
It better be items or what's the point?
I'm glad this has a chance of happening because some of those search sites are corrupt as hell, one in particular e.g certain items aren't getting listed and someone else gets a look at the list prior to the rest of us.
I'm glad this has a chance of happening because some of those search sites are corrupt as hell, one in particular e.g certain items aren't getting listed and someone else gets a look at the list prior to the rest of us.
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You're right about that, at least items. Hopefully prices too. I've never seen or visited sites like you referenced so I don't have any perspective on how basic or comprehensive they can be. But even basic has to beat vendor to vendor search and click.
until they release it (or give more info) no one can tell for sure - presumably it'll be a way to search by item from all vendors (whether that will be limited to a particular area, subserver, etc we'll have to wait and see)
I can't imagine it won't be limited by subserver. quest turn-ins are limited by subserver (fishing quests). what I am imagining is a kiosk at every bank that opens the subserver list of house vendors. that's probably way too lofty an idea, though, so maybe they'll create some kind of local vendor system in which players can submit items to one omnivendor. if they can make a truly global system i'll be impressed. it'll be more rewarding than dying to the grim reaper after successfully recalling.
what I would ask for is to create a hub which in itself acts as a marketplace, or encourages trade. Luna is great right now because it has the central bank and smith/tailor shop setup, but the problem with that is no one asks for repairs or new armor anymore, it's all too complicated and people sell repairs and powder fort. not sure how, but the game needs some sort of reason to interact with other players. maybe, say, a by-person repair could add a temporary self repair tag to an item? stuff like that. don't know if anything would help, but it would be cool.
Honestly I would love to see them follow the format of the current searches...
The system knows every item on every vendor on every shard. The system knows the layout of the land and the exact coordinates of the vender. What I would love to see is that information extracted into a web table during daily maintenance, then made searchable via a website (perhaps part of a MY UO).
I very much want to be able to search all vendors across all shards without being ingame to do it.
The system knows every item on every vendor on every shard. The system knows the layout of the land and the exact coordinates of the vender. What I would love to see is that information extracted into a web table during daily maintenance, then made searchable via a website (perhaps part of a MY UO).
I very much want to be able to search all vendors across all shards without being ingame to do it.
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I would rather prefer this system as an "ingame" system. This game has already lost so many aspects of a RPG. I think something essential like searching and buying stuff should be part of your ingame experience. And this implies - if you ask me - a visual adaption: something like a shop, a terminal, a kiosk... Dunno... I would love to see a little house, a certain person or a facility that represents this search. You have to contact this person, you talk to her/him and a menu pops up that allows you to browse your shard...
For me, it would be enough if you could do this on your shard... These facilities could be located in every city, comparable to the bank or the provisioner. I REALLY HOPE it will have the look and feel of something that is PART of a RPG.... I don´t want a website or a browser, somethink like a phone book. That´s lame. A MMORPG should be distinctively different from real world. Ultima today has so many features that serve only individual comfort and commerce... I would love to see something that is "not from this world"... Like a gypsy fortune-teller sitting in a tent and you can ask her, whether the item you are searching exists and she shows you where you can find it... I know, a bad metaphor. But the ingame vendor search should not be too much like a business-tool for financial analysts. No thanks!
For me, it would be enough if you could do this on your shard... These facilities could be located in every city, comparable to the bank or the provisioner. I REALLY HOPE it will have the look and feel of something that is PART of a RPG.... I don´t want a website or a browser, somethink like a phone book. That´s lame. A MMORPG should be distinctively different from real world. Ultima today has so many features that serve only individual comfort and commerce... I would love to see something that is "not from this world"... Like a gypsy fortune-teller sitting in a tent and you can ask her, whether the item you are searching exists and she shows you where you can find it... I know, a bad metaphor. But the ingame vendor search should not be too much like a business-tool for financial analysts. No thanks!
This is much needed. I'd also like to see them tie this in with an auction function for your vendor. Place an item on there with a minimum bid, a reserve if you want, set a duration. At auction end the item goes into the winners bank box and the gold goes on the vendor.
I would not object to the adding some way to access the information ingame. However, IMO there are huge advantages to deploying this search on the web:
1. Convenience. Being able to search for your item across all shards without have to log into each shard individually, search for your item and record the prices is a huge time saver. No one would be forced to use it if they prefer searching ingame, but my guess is those players are in the minority.
2. Reduced traffic to third party sites. Lets face it, regardless of the ingame system, those third party sites will adapt and continue to provide that information online. This continues to provide profit to those behind the site.
3. Opportunity for increased revenue to support our game. Websites with considerable traffic can generate revenue through advertising space. Put up a website and drive the traffic from those third party site to a UO site with some banner add. This provides some real return on investment for the work the dev team is doing.
4. Once the source table is developed, providing an ingame interface to access that information should be easier than trying to develop it separately.
Lets not forget about the sales aspect. I see no reason why EA/Mythic can't use this to drive sales of tokens, time, gold etc away from the third party sites and into thier revenue stream.
Absolutely! Even without adding additional items to the store they could hook into the origin store with buy for cash option that could show up next to the search results. Abyssal hair dye on these vendors for x gold with a box next to it showing the store price with an add to cart option!
Yeah, it would be a huge missed opportunity for EA to NOT make the vendor search capability web based and tie it into the Origin store so that we'd see advertising for UO items when we go to use the vendor search program.
The one big concern I have with doing that, though, is whether or not it would force us into having to run UO through the Origin client if EA wants to limit who can actually use the search function to people who have paid UO accounts. In addition to the recently exposed security concerns that come with having to use the Origin client, I think having to run UO through the Origin client would also be the end of being able to have two UO clients running simultaneously on one PC. It's not something I do regularly, but I do have to do it occasionally on shards where I have no house for characters or do have a house and need to friend a character from another account to the house. On the other hand, if vendor search is something that becomes available to us by running UO through the Origin client, maybe that would also mean we'll be seeing character/guild/vendor search again too, with the information also being presented through the Origin client.
Hopefully we'll get more information soon.
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I agree to most points, but please add the opportunity to have an ingame-experience when shopping. Its a MMORPG, not a shopping mall. I would love to have the chance to "play" it... You understand my point? I think you all are right - but you all are thinking technically or economically... I just want to add the aspect of gameplay... 
That aspect has already been heavily affected by 3rd party sites. There isn't a good reason to sacrifice performance or convenience for "immersion" or gameplay. Having a central hub for the shard's trade in game just screams lag to me, not to mention dbag tamers leaving their dragon on the NPC, spam, etc. no thanks.I agree to most points, but please add the opportunity to have an ingame-experience when shopping. Its a MMORPG, not a shopping mall. I would love to have the chance to "play" it... You understand my point? I think you all are right - but you all are thinking technically or economically... I just want to add the aspect of gameplay...
The point you all seem to be missing is that players will use the superior system. If the official search can't do everything the 3rd party search can do and better, it's just a waste of time. For those of you who like to toss ideas out while bragging that you don't use the 3rd party sites, it would do you well to have a look at the competition before suggesting ideas that would be inferior right out of the gate.
I would suspect if you got a website search they won't be able to teleport you to the vendor.
In game I'd think you'd be whisked to the vendor you wanted.
May depend what result you want lol. I doubt the pro-vendor search folks want to walk though, so in game may be the better option. It's always going to be superior to the 3rd party sites because they don't list every vendor on the shard.
I've looked at these 3rd party sites and they honestly left me totally unimpressed. I'm faster opening a runebook than messing about with a silly search site. Especially when said site doesn't even cover half the vendors in game. In the time it takes to load said website, start a search and deal with the results, I've already recalled right to the shop I need. And the prices are far lower than said site offers me. So while I don't support those sites because of their data collection and RL$ selling, I wouldn't use them even if they were official because they're just no use to me.
Wenchy
In game I'd think you'd be whisked to the vendor you wanted.
May depend what result you want lol. I doubt the pro-vendor search folks want to walk though, so in game may be the better option. It's always going to be superior to the 3rd party sites because they don't list every vendor on the shard.
I've looked at these 3rd party sites and they honestly left me totally unimpressed. I'm faster opening a runebook than messing about with a silly search site. Especially when said site doesn't even cover half the vendors in game. In the time it takes to load said website, start a search and deal with the results, I've already recalled right to the shop I need. And the prices are far lower than said site offers me. So while I don't support those sites because of their data collection and RL$ selling, I wouldn't use them even if they were official because they're just no use to me.
Wenchy
I respect your stand against 3rd party sites, but you're making a lot of large assumptions in this post. 3rd party sites cover any vendors submitted to them. Most large shop owners have their shops listed and are thus shown on the search feature. It's not just Luna vendors.
You're also assuming a lot saying there will be a teleport feature built into a search function we literally know NOTHING about. 3rd party sites give you coordinates,radar and map locations, vendor name, etc. obviously you can't teleport by using a website, why even bother saying that?
You're claiming it will always be superior if its official is also based on assumptions. As it is now, searching for any higher priced items will likely show you 95% of the vendors anyways, and likely the cheapest. Off the grid vendors frequently drop runes to their shops so the thrifty shoppers can check there anyways. And unless you have your fabled teleport option, not many will be willing to go explore the world looking for a vendor when they can spend a little more and have it in Luna.
Your comparison of the time spent opening a runebook vs using a search site is not realistic at all. I think you know that. If you don't know where an item is located, you don't know what rune to recall from in your runebook. Obvious. It's fine if you disagree with the use of 3rd party sites but making such silly comparisons doesn't make for a solid case and really diminishes the credibility of your opinion.
Lets not give people false hope/info. What Mesanna actually said was "Mesanna: I hope to have the vendor search in game by October." So, I could agree with she "approved" it, but this does not mean it will happen by October, or at all.
Just saying, we have all seen plans go awry.
I see 2 possible type of vendor search:
- Web: this could have a big potential, assuming it could search in all shards it could also provide the chance to get the items delivered in any shard without phisically go there (maybe at the price of a transfer token, so it will provide an income too). Obviously for this version they need to make an ingame delivery system like a code to redeem...
In order to make it work properly it will require a virtualization of the gold or it will be complex to withdraw it from the player bank.
- In game: this would be more limited than the web version. Basically it could only track items in the shard where you are and will require an item/npc in order to use it, and it must be rpg based so it won't ruin the game atmosphere. On the other hand this system do not require a delivery system because it just need to move the item into your backpack.
Actually I'm hoping for the web version, even if it will be great if they make something like the diablo 3 auction house. I don't think they will ever make a real money based system, but I hope at least for a transfer option
- Web: this could have a big potential, assuming it could search in all shards it could also provide the chance to get the items delivered in any shard without phisically go there (maybe at the price of a transfer token, so it will provide an income too). Obviously for this version they need to make an ingame delivery system like a code to redeem...
In order to make it work properly it will require a virtualization of the gold or it will be complex to withdraw it from the player bank.
- In game: this would be more limited than the web version. Basically it could only track items in the shard where you are and will require an item/npc in order to use it, and it must be rpg based so it won't ruin the game atmosphere. On the other hand this system do not require a delivery system because it just need to move the item into your backpack.
Actually I'm hoping for the web version, even if it will be great if they make something like the diablo 3 auction house. I don't think they will ever make a real money based system, but I hope at least for a transfer option
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I understand that, but they don't go looking for vendors unless submitted so by default they just show some of the vendors. And certainly when I looked they didn't seem to list anything outside Luna on my shard. My interest in said sites is minimal but I did look at them to see what all the fuss was about. I went back to runebooks unimpressed heh.
I'm not assuming anything, read what I said: "In game I'd think you'd be whisked to the vendor you wanted." Note the bold... when I prefix something with "I'd think," I'm clearly not saying there will definitely be a teleport. I said that perhaps an in game vendor search would offer a teleport option that an official or 3rd party website couldn't manage. Which would be a huge time saver for players. And it would be an advantage over a 3rd party site or an official web based search. If the 3rd party site just tells you the location and you have to walk and the official search takes you straight there, the devs can give their official search an advantage over the competition.
See above. If the official search can teleport you and the 3rd party just offers a map then that's an advantage. Listing all the shops on the shard automatically, rather than just some of them, is another advantage. Some players who avoid the 3rd party sites will use the official search whether it is superior to 3rd party sites or not. We all have to wait and see what happens.
I've had vendors on and off since pre-Tram. I've never had trouble getting enough people to leave the Luna shops and visit mine, even with 3rd party sites and the convenience of the city. Whether the official search succeeds or not doesn't concern me as a merchant, it's just a possible boost in traffic *shrugs*. I'm not waiting anxiously for that traffic, I know how to bring it in by myself. I may have issues if the official search brings in a load of resellers but I have a plan B to deal with that issue if it arises. We've all had a long time to think what we'd do in different situations and sort ourselves out.
Or I have a functioning memory and remember the shops I keep runes for
And I know which shops to try first, where vendors are and I can make quick hops to others if they're out of stock. It's no different to knowing which RL shops are likely to have items you want and knowing where certain things are stacked. Shops often have vendors set out so you can tell what a vendor sells, so it's easy enough to find what you want. I mean even if you know a vendor's name from a search site, you still have to find that vendor in the shop lol. Believe what you like, but some of us are faster than a 3rd party search and run shopping trip. If I wasn't, I'd be more enthusiastic about an official vendor search. When in fact I'm hoping it never arrives lol.Wenchy
I do like the idea of UO having its own sanctioned vendor search.. We all know of the others and how they semi work... I just hope the Dev can make something that functions on all shards. Not that I dont love a good shopping hunt.... or my son when he gets out there shopping ........... the gold flys
We have needed this andif thes keps the game in shape and players happy I for one am all for it.
We have needed this andif thes keps the game in shape and players happy I for one am all for it.
Repeating yourself doesn't make your statements any less ridiculous. You can bold words all day long, but the fact remains that your comparison between official search teleporting you and 3rd party search not teleporting you is only valid ASSUMING teleport even exists, which it won't. It is more likely the item would come to you, but I doubt either one will actually be implemented.I understand that, but they don't go looking for vendors unless submitted so by default they just show some of the vendors. And certainly when I looked they didn't seem to list anything outside Luna on my shard. My interest in said sites is minimal but I did look at them to see what all the fuss was about. I went back to runebooks unimpressed heh.
I'm not assuming anything, read what I said: "In game I'd think you'd be whisked to the vendor you wanted." Note the bold... when I prefix something with "I'd think," I'm clearly not saying there will definitely be a teleport. I said that perhaps an in game vendor search would offer a teleport option that an official or 3rd party website couldn't manage. Which would be a huge time saver for players. And it would be an advantage over a 3rd party site or an official web based search. If the 3rd party site just tells you the location and you have to walk and the official search takes you straight there, the devs can give their official search an advantage over the competition.
See above. If the official search can teleport you and the 3rd party just offers a map then that's an advantage. Listing all the shops on the shard automatically, rather than just some of them, is another advantage. Some players who avoid the 3rd party sites will use the official search whether it is superior to 3rd party sites or not. We all have to wait and see what happens.
I've had vendors on and off since pre-Tram. I've never had trouble getting enough people to leave the Luna shops and visit mine, even with 3rd party sites and the convenience of the city. Whether the official search succeeds or not doesn't concern me as a merchant, it's just a possible boost in traffic *shrugs*. I'm not waiting anxiously for that traffic, I know how to bring it in by myself. I may have issues if the official search brings in a load of resellers but I have a plan B to deal with that issue if it arises. We've all had a long time to think what we'd do in different situations and sort ourselves out.
Or I have a functioning memory and remember the shops I keep runes for
Wenchy
Again, with your runebook nonsense. Not even close to a valid argument. We are talking about searching for an item and its location. If you already know where to go to find said item, YOU WOULD NOT NEED TO SEARCH FOR IT. Is this really that complicated? Finding an item on a vendor that could be anywhere in the world is vastly superior to your silly runebook of vendors that you "remember." No contest.
If you prefer your archaic method over modern convenience, that's your choice and your problem. Don't try to discount the usefulness of search sites just because you are either too stubborn or not intelligent enough to take advantage of them though. Your way will always be less effective and it's ridiculous to claim otherwise.
I guess the bottom line really is if you don't even want vendor search implemented you really shouldn't be posting here in the first place. We have enough forum negativity without the staff getting in on it.
If you sounded like you had understood what I said, I wouldn't have needed to explain it to you a second time. And you are still getting into a flap because I think something different to you. You don't know how this system will work either so both thoughts are equally valid at this stage.
I don't always know a shop has something, but I do know the most likely places to find it, is that simple enough for you to understand? I can still check one shop's rare vendor for example then go to the next one before you run across Luna. And if you know your shard you can easily hit the right vendor first time. Even if you haven't bought that item before. I can hop round shops efficiently, I'm a seller as well as a buyer. That means knowing shops, what they sell and knowing which shops have the keenest prices.
Do you need a vendor search to shop in RL or do you know the shops which will probably have what you want? Some of us can manage this basic task without a search engine telling us the answers. It's no big deal to apply the same skill in UO.
The day I need a search site to help me buy stuff in a computer game is the day I'll worry about my intelligence level. Shopping in UO is not rocket science lol. We don't all need a search engine directing us before we take a single step forward.
Any player who buys and sells in UO is entitled to be part of this conversation. If you didn't want a change made, I bet you'd feel quite entitled to speak up and express your concerns. Staff or not. Concerns as well as celebration ensure the devs get to see what a range of players think. Sometimes the concerns lead to something being improved upon or fixed.
Wenchy
Oh goodness. You don't like being wrong, do you? That was a great essay but it doesn't change fact. Search sites are more effective than a dude with a runebook. That is plain truth. Next you'll be telling me a sling shot is a better weapon than a rifle because its what you're used to using. What a boring debate this is.
People have lost the drive to search the lands for stuff. People aren't broke and they are willing to part with a slightly larger amount of gold for the ease of buying the item they want fast. You might not see the game the same way and this is fine but stop attempting to say that this should be the case for everyone. Nothing will, or should, prevent you from playing the game as you see fit just as nothing should stop those who are willing to pay a premium for better "service".
Saying that using a search engine is for stupid people is like saying that well water is just as good as city tap water. They are both water just as a search engine is the same as your UO legs and recall books but the well water might kill you while the city water is pure, fast and effecient. Drinking the well water is something that only a desperate or stupid person would do and I hope that this is a desperate plea to keep the game the way you think it should be.
After reading some of the responses, I can see now that there really isn't a definitive definition for what a Vendor Search feature is or isn't. Not as simple as I thought.
Which I guess is good thing, in that Mesanna and team can mold it the way they think it will best serve the game, hopefully taking into consideration some of the suggestions here. Not to be "wishy washy" but I can see the advantages of both sides, regarding in-game or web based system.
However, looking at it strictly from the perspective of new players and their retention (UO's future growth) I think the idea of their being able to go to central place, in-game, finding what they're looking for and then (maybe) being teleported directly there would be great, for all the obvious reasons. Anything that might make the small things in UO life a little easier and leave more time to learn and enjoy the bigger challenges can only help to keep them around longer.
But what ever the final design is, it has to be an improvement over the search and click grind we have now.
Which I guess is good thing, in that Mesanna and team can mold it the way they think it will best serve the game, hopefully taking into consideration some of the suggestions here. Not to be "wishy washy" but I can see the advantages of both sides, regarding in-game or web based system.
However, looking at it strictly from the perspective of new players and their retention (UO's future growth) I think the idea of their being able to go to central place, in-game, finding what they're looking for and then (maybe) being teleported directly there would be great, for all the obvious reasons. Anything that might make the small things in UO life a little easier and leave more time to learn and enjoy the bigger challenges can only help to keep them around longer.
But what ever the final design is, it has to be an improvement over the search and click grind we have now.
Just because there seem to have been some unannounced changes made to house signs over the course of the last couple of publishes (e.g., I believe they remain visible, to an extent, now while a house is in customization mode), my gut feeling is that the house signs are going to be used as a receptacle of information for your house, including vendor contents, and therefore must always be accessible. That leads me to think that the vendor search feature, if and when we get it, will probably be an in-game feature only; will only let you access information for the shard you're on; and might permit you to remotely buy the item for a fee that will serve as a gold sink and might possibly replace the current fees charged to the bank accounts of vendor owners. I also wonder if the vendor search feature might completely eliminate the need to make houses public and place NPC vendors and you'll just put items up for sale through the house sign if your character is an owner or co-owner on the house.
All just speculation, of course, and not saying whether or not I'm for or against any of it. Just some thoughts based on some stuff I've noticed being quietly changed over the last couple of months.
All just speculation, of course, and not saying whether or not I'm for or against any of it. Just some thoughts based on some stuff I've noticed being quietly changed over the last couple of months.
Well you can't have it both ways. You can't say hey, Wenchy don't you try saying how it should be for others, while you're telling concerned merchants how they must adapt and change to this, how the whole economy will change whether they want to play with vendor search or not lol. This is a huge change, you can't expect folk to stay silent because they have different ideas about what should happen.
I didn't say search engines were for stupid people though, lol. What I said was that I am not so stupid that I need a search engine to shop. I referred only to myself. All players are capable of finding things for themselves, some want a search engine but that doesn't make them stupid, they just want a search to assist them. Nobody needs search, it's just another way of finding things.
Wenchy
The difference is not between stupid or not stupid people, but between people who has a lot of spare time an people who don't have a lot of time to spare
If you enjoy to go manually through many vendor on different shards good for you, because I think this system will stay... but many people (me included), when I have to buy something I'd like to compare prices and get the best deal in the shortest time and the vendor search is the best way to get that
Also I hate to waste time to search manually, that's why I've adde the container search, a search box for the npc vendors and I'm improving the crafting menu with a search engine on EC, because I just like fast results with the minimum effort
It's not really about having spare time either. Search is just one more option for busy players, they can also ask in chat, on a trade forum or better still ask a shop owner or merchant. In all of those scenarios you can not only get items quickly, you often get them brought right to your feet. You can even tell a shop owner what you'll need next week and have it ready for you. Rather than having to go down that list of items individually, search for them, go to the vendor and purchase. Search is just another option in addition to the ones we have already. It isn't a magic bullet fixThe difference is not between stupid or not stupid people, but between people who has a lot of spare time an people who don't have a lot of time to spare
Merchants will use search too. I suspect the best deals aren't likely to last long, those will likely be taken onto more expensive vendors and gradually you'll find deals aren't as plentiful. Buy low, sell high.If you enjoy to go manually through many vendor on different shards good for you, because I think this system will stay... but many people (me included), when I have to buy something I'd like to compare prices and get the best deal in the shortest time and the vendor search is the best way to get that
Wenchy
yes, but remember that we already have search sites so it's already possible to do that
I just hope for a serch engine that cover all shards so you could buy and transfer at once to your home shard, otherwise nothing will change much
I`ll be glad for a vendor search for one reason only. Not having to trudge thru all these sloppy vendors anymore. Nothing worse than opening a vendor bag only to see 10 UNLABELED bags you get to look thru.I`m sick to death of lazy and empty vendors. When I open a vendor bag to see what I have described,its closed just as fast and I move on. It will be very nice to be able to surf vendors and not have to walk all over gods country for what amounts to nothing.
The days of people appreciating nicely decorated vendor houses are long gone. No one cares what you have locked down or how your vendors are dressed or how the house looks. What does matter is finding things fast at a good price with the least amount of effort possible.
I hope they make something like DAoC`s vendor search.
The days of people appreciating nicely decorated vendor houses are long gone. No one cares what you have locked down or how your vendors are dressed or how the house looks. What does matter is finding things fast at a good price with the least amount of effort possible.
I hope they make something like DAoC`s vendor search.
What about the people that stock vendors with the EC and when you open thier vendor with the CC it all in one spot. I just love stupid vendor owners that have no clue on how to stock thier vendors for all UO players. What do they think, that this will force me to play the EC, LOL. No it will not and I will never open your vendor again so you just lost a buyer for your goods and I really don't care what your prices are. You want to see nicely stocked vendors, visit the Asian Shards.
Those sites don't cover every shop on every shard, just Luna ones plus those submitted to them for inclusion. You get Luna stock and prices, and a few others. An official search is likely to offer you every vendor and price. A much larger selection and many cheaper prices than you see now. That is the difference. I hope very little changes in some respects, but I don't expect it hehe.yes, but remember that we already have search sites so it's already possible to do that
Wenchy
LOL. Or when you use the EC and classic containers then you get the same thing, everything at the bottom. No excuse when you can use classic view to stock up
I pity those who don't know about classic containers, grid and list would give me nightmares when I went shopping. The variation on that is of course throwing everything onto the vendor so there's just like a bag of random stuff. I call it "my vendor is a corpse" style. Or they heard about using bags to sort and you get a bag of bags of stuff. It's like you buy an unsorted IDOC in a bag...
Wenchy